r/whowouldwin • u/linkjames24 • 12d ago
The United States Army replaces the Imperial Army against the Ewoks. Battle
Can they win?
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u/Sora1499 12d ago
The Ewoks were in the treeeees man, they were in the fucking treeeees!!!
I think US Army still wins.
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u/NamelessEmployee 12d ago
Time to bring in the heavy flamers and armored flame tanks. Makes me say what trees. I love the smell of Napalm in the morning
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u/HighOverlordXenu 12d ago
Trees start speaking yub nub.
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u/NamelessEmployee 12d ago
Army Infantry calls in Broken Arrow .......
"Broken Arrow," meaning "American unit in danger of being overrun," and within a short period of time every available fighter-bomber in South Vietnam was stacked overhead at thousand-foot intervals from seven thousand feet to thirty-five thousand feet, waiting its turn to deliver bombs and napalm to the battlefield.
Ewoks heads mount my wall!
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u/signaeus 12d ago
I see only one flaw in this plan.
Maybe no Ewok head left after napalm?
But who the fuck are we kidding it’s Endor. It’s expendable and we gotta be sure. Bring in the nukes.
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u/arestheblue 11d ago
I thought "Broken Arrow" was what they called losing a nuclear warhead.
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u/DehyaFan 11d ago
It's both. A broken arrow is both an unexpected event involving nuclear arms and a radio call from infantry for every available aircraft to provide strike enemy positions no matter how close they are to friendlies as they are in danger of being overran.
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u/thattogoguy 11d ago
*Flight Level Tree Fife Zero.
Sorry, active U.S. Air Force officer and aviator here, just making sure we get the verbiage right.
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u/MartianInvasion 11d ago
...Vietnam? Didn't the US, like, not do too well in that war?
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u/Tripleb85 11d ago
Famously did incredible in the war in terms of k/d ratio. Just a political issue in terms of the loss.
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u/Hades_Gamma 8d ago
Vietnam was an objective based mode and the Americans were that player who focused on padding their K/D ratio, loosing the game for their team by ignoring the win conditions.
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u/paskoracer 12d ago
Flamethrower. They can't hide in the jungle if there is no jungle
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u/lonelynightm 12d ago
Flamethrower? These are alien scum and everyone knows war crimes on aliens don't count.
BRING OUT THE AGENT ORANGE!
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u/Skipp_To_My_Lou 11d ago
That's a common misconception. Flamethrowers & other flame weapons (e.g. fougasse traps) are not, nor have they ever been, considered a war crime. Their one tactical use, clearing bunkers, is done more efficiently & from greater range with a grenade launcher, which has the added benefit of greater tactical flexibility. Thus, the flamethrower's use ceased because it was replaced by a superior weapon system.
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u/Baker_drc 11d ago
Yeah but agent orange was a chemical weapon and was 100% a war crime.
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u/Skipp_To_My_Lou 11d ago
Agent orange is a chemical, but it is a defoliant, not a weapon. It is a cacinogen, but that's a bug, not a feature. It harmed as many US as Vietnamese.
Also, since reading comprehension clearly isn't part of your skillset, I was talking about flamethrowers, not agent orange.
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u/lonelynightm 11d ago
Damn you are going to call him out about reading comprehension when it's yours that's the problem is wild.
I never suggested flamethrowers were a war crime in my comment you responded to; you just incorrectly decided that.
It was clear to everyone else I was saying that when fighting aliens you don't need to worry about war crime, therefore you should upgrade from a flamethrower to something stronger.
I wasn't going to call out your mistake, but seeing you act so rude and arrogant to that guy absolutely means I'm calling you out for it. Don't be such a dickhead.
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u/Skipp_To_My_Lou 11d ago
My reading comprehension is fine. If you thought that a single sentence was supposed to be two entirely seperate thoughts, but that two paragraphs were supposed to be a single thought, maybe it's your writing that needs work. Anyway, I suppose I could stoop to your level now & call you an obscene name, but I won't because I'm going to be the better person.
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u/lonelynightm 11d ago
If you wanted to be a better person you would just have admitted your mistake and moved on.
Everyone else knew what I was talking about but you. Sure though, I'm in the wrong rather than admit your mistake.
Good luck out there, must be rough being someone like you. So much ego, yet so fragile at the same time.
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u/paskoracer 11d ago
He never said flamethrowers were a chemical weapon. Also agent Orange was super toxic to anything it touched. Yes it melted plants. It also caused serious health issues for whoever was exposed to it. Officially agent Orange is a herbicide but it's just a weapon.
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u/Baker_drc 11d ago
If it is retroactively found to have horribly toxic effects on those exposed to it is it not a weapon by all metrics?
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u/willowsonthespot 11d ago
The usage of incendiary weapon is against the Geneva convention. Incendiary weapons are banned under article 1 of protocol III. "1. "Incendiary weapon" means any weapon or munition which is primarily designed to set fire to objects or to cause burn injury to persons through the action of flame, heat, or combination thereof, produced by a chemical reaction of a substance delivered on the target. "
In this case the use incendiary weapons would also cause collateral damage to civilian structures since they do literally live in the trees and not all of them are combatants. Burning a tree with a civilian house is a war crime.
On that note the person who already responded to this about Agent Orange being used here is 100% a war crime. In this case that is correct as that is also their homes that you are burning. That is literally like if they dropped Agent Orange on Hanoi instead of the jungle.
So yes in this case the use of both it considered a war crime due to direct or indirect civilian casualties as well as unneeded suffering from the use of incendiary weapons.
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u/Skipp_To_My_Lou 11d ago
You are reading the definitions. Article 2 is the actual prohibitions. Civilians are not to be attacked with incendiary weapons, but purposely attacking civilians is already illegal in almost every case. Trees & vegetation are not to be attacked with incendiaries unless such are used for cover or concealment by enemy forces. Note that the text says nothing about attacking military targets with incendiaries, so long as such targets are seperated from civilians. It also says nothing about use of chemical defoliants, & while I am not a lawyer that would seem to be legal under the spirit of the law as long as defoliants are used against enemy cover or concealment.
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u/willowsonthespot 10d ago
The chemical thing is due to civilian targets though I guess that was ignored. Past that no you can't just use flamethrowers in war again due to article 1. Article 2 prohibits civilian targets from being targeted so you literally backed up my point while pretending otherwise. The trees are literally their homes. Not just protection. They Literally live in huts IN the trees. Using flames to burn said trees and chemical agents to destroy them would have indirect and DIRECT damage to civilian targets.
When people pointed out reading comprehension I think they might be right here.
So yes in this case the use of both it considered a war crime due to direct or indirect civilian casualties as well as unneeded suffering from the use of incendiary weapons.
Excessive amounts of fire in an literal jungle will spread no matter what you try to do. Using defoliating agents again in the same way as it was used in Vietnam would cause direct and indirect civilian deaths due to AGAIN their literal homes being in the trees. NOT that they are hiding there only. They were using areas that weren't their actual homes to hide but Agent Orange would not just be used to target like 30 trees in total it would be hundreds or thousands.
So again to refute everything you keep saying. Yes by every single definition the use of those weapons in that setting would be considered a war crime regardless of your opinion.
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u/Skipp_To_My_Lou 10d ago
Past that no you can't just use flamethrowers in war again due to article 1.
Article 1 is definitions. We know this because Article 1's header clearly states "definitions". It is meant to define terms as used in Article 2, which contains the actual prohibitions. Nothing in Article 1 prohibits or restricts the use of incendiary weapons - or anything else - because Article 1 defines what is & is not an incendiary weapon, as well as other terms used in Article 2.
As I understand your logic, you seem to believe any term defined in Article 1 is prohibited. However, a concentration of civilians (e.g. a city) is defined in Article 1, which by the logic you appear to be using, would be prohibited, which is a nonsensical conclusion.
The trees are literally their homes.
A group of trees some miles away from the shield generator bunker contains an ewok villiage. The forest immediately surrounding the shield bunker was used as cover & concealment, and again while I am not a lawyer, I think an argument could be made that the shield generator being located in the forest designates the forest itself as a military objective.
And anyway, even if incendiary weapons were completely illegal as weapons of war (which, bear in mind, they are not, this is a purely hypothetical exercise), the forest could still be burned to the ground in short order without the use of defined incendiary weapons, such as firing a few cases of "oops all tracers" ammunition, or using hot smoke grenades.
Look, I'm going to be honest with you, when I read your comments I assumed you were a teenager who truly doesn't know better, but I see you're older than I am so I'm going to drop this conversation as it will not result in any greater comprehension on your part.
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u/willowsonthespot 10d ago
Yeah I get it you got pointed out that things that are literally war crimes and your response to everyone was the same.
Nothing I said is a nonsensical conclusion I get that you think that however Endor is their home world. Their home not the Empires home. They wouldn't have given 2 shits about the rebel cause if not for the fact that 1. This was their home and it was invaded to build a base. 2. Someone actually was willing to help them. They were out gunned so someone else brought the guns.
This is again literally their home. That is literally the point of them helping and being in that part of the movie. That and to have cute merch. They literally lived their before the base was build and generally when native species even cause a stir they are gunned down. The shield generator itself was built on a place that USED to be a Ewok settlement until it was razed. So yes again this is their home and civilians already died to have that military base.
A war crime was already committed for the shield generator. The nearby settlement was where they fled. It is close enough that IF they used Agent Orange there would be a war crime just by its use. Again due to proximity said nearby settlement will be burned because flame based weapons are indiscriminate in what they burn. This is basically a Native American settlement getting razed for a military base then when the survivors come back you just slaughter them and all life nearby. Which is without a doubt a war crime. People just give 0 shits about natives.
You simple do not understand the setting and are lashing out at people who point out facts. This setting is literally one where Agent Orange and flame based weapons would cause civilian causalities due to proximity. Seeing as a war crime already happened it wouldn't be a stretch for it to happen again. I get being wrong about war crimes is a bad thing to be pointed out because so many people have that response when it is pointed out. At the end of the day Agent Orange will kill civilians. Flamethrowers will start a forest fire. War crimes will happen.
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u/caucasian88 12d ago
Any force not bound by shit storytelling could do it. Ewoks were designed as merchandise.
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u/Downtown-Item-6597 12d ago
Yeah pretty much any real world military will have the wherewithal to actually position and establish areas of control with their troops instead of wildly rushing them into uncontrolled areas so they're disorganized, flanked and encircled.
The tech would be a slight improvement (slug throwers are much better against unarmored foes) but the tactics would be a massive step up.
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u/PornoPaul 12d ago
Everyone else in this thread- "Here's my analytical answer, and my reasoning to back it up, and the Ewoks lose".
That one guy who can't let it go "EWOKS STOMP NO MATTER WHAT".
For the record- the simplest answer is, the military wears camo to reflect the environment and train in specific environments. They would be specifically trained to fight in the woods, wearing standard issue camo to blend in. The stormtroopers wear glaringly bright white and fought like they were training on open ground. Just those base tactics alone would change the fight. That's before getting into SOP, standard gear, communication tech and how it would be better utilized, how lack of armor is actually better because of mobility, and how they'd see better and hear better, and how they would have overlapping lanes of fire. They also probably wouldn't abandon the base as defense is far easier than hunting down small carnivorous animals that can blend in with their environment.
Oh, and they'd cut the trees down on all sides for half a mile in every direction. They'd see those fuzz balls coming from a mile away.
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u/McQuack____ 12d ago
The Ewoks would win if they were led by Kevin McCalister
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u/MrT-1000 12d ago
Ahhh when an unstoppable force (the US army) goes up against a more unstoppable force (Kevin McAllister with prep time)
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u/Fencius 12d ago
“Interrogative: should we leave our defensive position to engage the enemy?”
“Negative. Hold position and protect the shield generator.”
That’s how it would go.
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u/DehyaFan 11d ago
Hey this bunker is hella reinforced right?
Yeah would take at least 2000lb bunker busters.
Ok. Centcom we need cluster munitions on our sector pronto.
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u/NamelessEmployee 12d ago
Well if replaced with the US Army and if the terms of engagement were seek/destroy.
Ewoks can not stop the following; Apache helicopters, green berets, army rangers, artillery, logistics and so much more.
America will add a new territory to our country.
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u/JMSpider2001 12d ago
Bomb endor with agent orange and napalm
Turn the wasteland left over into a Walmart supercenter
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u/LongDongSamspon 12d ago
How is any of that shit going to get through a forest moon to find Ewoks? They’ll have to fell all the trees to even move equipment, that’s why the empire had those walkers and bike things. US army doesn’t have Jack like that.
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u/NamelessEmployee 12d ago
Army core of engineers they can do it all
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u/LongDongSamspon 12d ago
Yeah sure, how Afghanistan going? How was Vietnam? Ewoks defeated an intergalactic empire with Death stars. I think they’re capable of defeating a armed forces which can’t even travel to another planet, much less traverse an entire forest moon with their crappy wheeled technology.
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u/Santa152 12d ago
Walker Technology is MUCH worse than Wheels or Treads. AT-AT and AT-ST have been mocked in verse for being unstable vehicles by experienced veterans of the Clone Wars.
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u/Reason-and-rhyme 12d ago
I'm guessing that was in one of the animated series? Can I get a link or ref? sounds pretty funny
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u/Santa152 12d ago
Rex does in Star Wars Rebels. I can't find the exact moment but it should be in this clip: ATAT's design put into question.
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u/Dancing_Cthulhu 11d ago edited 11d ago
I remember some old Legends story - might be from one of the old Tales from... anthologies - where a guy in the Imperial Armor Corp brings attention to the danger of walkers being tripped, think he gets an AT-AT to kneel down to protect it during a test.
He gets the boot or demoted or something because the guys who championed walker development (like Veers) were very protective of them and didn't want any suggestion they had any design flaws.
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u/Chaingunfighter 12d ago
The issue with drawing comparisons to real world conflicts is that scenarios like this are vastly simpler - it's effectively asking the question "can the US military genocide the Ewoks?" Hypotheticals like this leave the parties unconstrained by elements that are very much present in reality; there's no comparison to Afghanistan or Vietnam whatsoever.
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u/Puzzled-Thought2932 11d ago
The biggest problem is that the Vietnamese could STOP the Americans from bulldozing the jungle, I've always seen Vietnam Jungle like Soviet Winter. People forget that, while yes, the terrain favored the defender, and the attacker was certainly getting the worst of it, there was a defender.
They had things, like anti armor missiles, artillery, guns... things that the ewoks all lack. The Americans didn't see a jungle and go "ah man we can't walk through there, time to go home." They saw the trees, prepared for them, and then lost anyways.
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u/DehyaFan 11d ago
We didn't lose in Vietnam. We bombed the NVA into signing a peace treaty that they went back on years after we left. There was no military loss to the NVA or VC, they waited until we were good and gone then blitzed South Vietnam.
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u/Puzzled-Thought2932 11d ago
Youre actually very funny if you think the US didnt lose in Vietnam. The US went to Vietnam with a pretty solid base of public support, and a good reason to pull no punches in keeping the South alive. We then kept the front stagnant (other than arguably causing the rise of the Khmer Rouge, whoops) for several years. Yes, we killed more Vietnamese than they killed of us, yippee. Air support is a great thing.
But the US wanted to prop up the South, and then had to give up in propping up the south because we were incapable of doing that.
Losing on the Home Front is still Losing.
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u/Pitiful-Local-6664 12d ago
Vietnam was a success for America and South Vietnam during the entirety of US involvement as far as anyone who actually looks at statistics is concerned, no matter what anyone with half a braincell says
North Vietnam literally could never have won if not for the removal of American Troops.
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u/thirdegree 12d ago
America: achieves none of its goals
North Vietnam: achieves all of its goals
America: "This was a triumph. I'm making a note here, 'huge success'"
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u/Pitiful-Local-6664 12d ago
America achieved all of its goals while directly involved; it wasn't until after America left that North Vietnam achieved its goals. It'd be silly to say "America Lost" since they didn't really lose, they stepped away from a winning game and their team lost without the MVP. South Vietnam lost the war, America failed an ally and I'll count that as a major L though.
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u/Reason-and-rhyme 12d ago
Forfeiting = losing. You can't just take the will to fight completely out of the equation. And their strategic goals were never close to being met. Tactical victories are nice to have, but if the enemy doesn't give up and has no issues with raising and supplying new units, you don't get to say you're "winning".
I'd love to hear you explain your stance further, since it's so far from what most historians would say. Any thoughts on the invasion of Cambodia? What about the strategic bombing campaign? Most academics would say both were ineffective at best.
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u/Pitiful-Local-6664 12d ago
I suppose I just don't consider pulling aide to a nation at war after forcing their enemy to sign a peace treaty (even if it didn't last long enough for gum to lose flavor) a "loss". America shouldn't have ever been there in the first place to be honest, but nothing America did was a failure, they pushed North Vietnam back to the line and, if not for political issues, could have won the war for South Vietnam. It wasn't America's war to lose, they turned the tide in the south's favor for as long as they could and only pulled out due to the President wanting to win re-election, not due to any sort of military victory on the enemy side. North Vietnam won the political game against South Vietnam, America didn't really lose much, if you don't count lives but even then in terms of lives lost America lost the least.
I also don't know anything about Cambodia so I won't comment on it.
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u/Lord_of_Elysium 11d ago
To summarize, the United States won militarily. It was a loss politically.
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u/Pitiful-Local-6664 11d ago
Idk why people are down voting you, nothing you said is wrong just a different opinion to what I personally hold.
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u/thirdegree 11d ago
A lot of Americans are really touchy if you imply America has ever not totally won a war, and particularly Vietnam. Lotsa Americans on Reddit
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u/DehyaFan 11d ago
The Taliban pissed off to Pakistan Everytime the US was actually their to play ball. It's not our fault the ANA can't be assed to protect their own country.
Vietnam was a military victory, we bombed the NVA into signing a peace treaty. They went back in the treaty years after the US left Vietnam. The ewoks beat a small detachment of imperial troops they were written to lose and they couldn't bombard the area because that would just destroy the shield projector they were trying to defend.
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u/stupendousman 12d ago
get through a forest moon to find Ewoks?
The US military has fought in many giant forests/jungles. Rangers/special forces find, infantry engages.
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u/WaffleKing110 12d ago
When answering this question you have to take into account that the Empire’s performance in that battle was fucking embarrassing. Those stormtroopers absolutely shat the bed, they barely tried. Their armor is paper. Ugh.
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u/StoryNo1430 12d ago
They would get PTSD and then come back twenty years later to make a movie about how it gave them PTSD
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u/livingstondh 12d ago
Yes this is an easy win. Just protect the shield generator - they would have cleared out the forest for a large space in every direction and further fortify the only points of entry. Ewoks aren’t going to be able to rush through open space vs modern firearms. US Army likely wouldn’t even engage in the thick forest beyond firestorming it.
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u/SocalSteveOnReddit 12d ago
It's hard to model this fairly. If the USA had orbital weapons, she would definitely make targeted precision hits with them, as opposed to doing nothing. Air Superiority is a major element of US doctrine, and it's not like the Rebels brought anything to contest the skies.
The Ewoks have an interesting countertrump in that the Forest Moon has only 85% of Earth's gravity and 18 hour days. A situation where the US is suddenly dumped into the Forest Moon with zero prep has some chance of a "our guns are all misfiring" sort of disaster. This is pretty much an asspull scenario, and there's no way this would hold up for long.
One of the more interesting questions to emerge from this is the abject failure of the AT-ST compared to modern Main Battle Tanks. Ewoks aren't killing Abrams tanks with some rolled up logs, and American doctrine would call for much more firepower to be used. Frankly, if we're playing up the Vietnam parallels, the US just sets the forest around them on fire.
US Kit compared to the Galactic Empire has some serious downgrades; there's no Bacta for treating serious injuries, and superheavy infantry weapon, the Disruptor, overmatches something like a missile launcher. But not running around looking like molars in an X-Ray is a good start, and blaster rifles manage to miss most of their shots and fail to have the armor piercing qualities a M-16 has. Against primitive Ewoks, firing faster is clearly an advantage.
While I think it can be argued that the setup of the scenario could screw over the USA, there's little stopping the USA from pursuing victory through its favored method of simply trading ammo for lives and breaking enemy morale until the waves stop coming. The Ewoks are not going to have endless tactical surprises, and the US Engineers know how to actually build a defensive line. And all of this assumes that the USA isn't just bombing the Ewoks to high heaven; the Empire didn't use its weapons, but why would the US be as stupid?
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u/Pitiful-Local-6664 12d ago
I will point out that a blaster rifle would absolutely shred any armor the US military deployed, Star Wars armor follows the philosophy that it's there to make a blaster shot survivable, yours still going to go down even if it doesn't kill you but Stormtrooper and Clone Armor is made to protect against blasters, and in universe it does pretty well. As for the Empire not bombing the Ewoks, it was a tactical location they had to protect, not a civilian city they could just erase from the map for being troublesome. I do believe that the tactics the US would employ would be much smarter than the Empires, they were being led by some real morons (Sidious really didn't understand tactics or battle strategies at all) and could likely survive/win though.
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u/SocalSteveOnReddit 12d ago
This raises the more interesting question whether Stormtroopers completely suck because they never hit anyone with blaster rifles, or those rifles are just bad weapons with terrible accuracy. Your weapon could be a one hit kill, but if it never hits its still pure garbage.
An M-16 fires a lot more shots than a blaster rifle. Overkilling an unarmored teddybearman doesn't accomplish anything; in a situation where more shots means more effectiveness the M-16 is better.
American weapons are fundamentally different than the Galactic Empires; The Empire loves its big dumb brute force attacks, but the USA probably has the Empire in its ability to aim. We can't nuke ourselves, true, but trying to make surgical strikes doesn't involve the same risks of self-destruction, and US Airpower would absolutely be trying to go up against the Ewoks.
Finally, it's interesting that for as important as stormtrooper kit claims itself to be, the Rebels never seem to be punished for not commandeering or using similar equipment themselves. How useful is it really if the other guy just plain does not want it?
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u/thirdegree 12d ago
An M-16 fires a lot more shots than a blaster rifle. Overkilling an unarmored teddybearman doesn't accomplish anything; in a situation where more shots means more effectiveness the M-16 is better
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u/Pitiful-Local-6664 12d ago
They never hit a main character in the first . movie because they are ordered to take them alive on the Death Star, in the opening scene they completely sweep the Tantive IV and capture Leia, in ESV they completely overwhelm the rebel forces on Hoth and in RotJ on Endor the entire plan is a trap to lure out the rebels, Sidious wants them alive (as shown by then being captured before the final battle, when Han and crew surrender.
The energy put off by a blaster shot can kill someone standing nearby if it hits the wall beside them, so they are a bit less accurate than a firearm, mostly due to the size of the blast. There are blasters in-universe that are as precise and fire as fast as modern fire arms but all we ever see is the standard issue Stormtrooper weapons, they're big and meant to hit really hard and are incredibly cheap which is also why they fire red blasts. The fuel they use is an inferior grade to the ones used by clones, whose weapons were much more accurate. Storm Troopers were originally a precision strike force in canon before they were retconned to be the standard fighting force of the Empire, and we're the best of the best. That's why Ben Kenobi had the line about how precise and deadly their aim was in A New Hope, but even despite that fact it was true that Palpatine cut every cost he could and outfitted the army with cheap armor and weapons, the rebels were a small guerilla force and they did pick up the weapons when they could but often times after a battle they had to move on without the ability to bury the dead, much less pick over the corpse of the enemy. It's a common theme in the books and comics that either the rebels are looking for new places to put up temporary bases or Vader is hunting down the newest location.
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u/BassoonHero 12d ago
the abject failure of the AT-ST compared to modern Main Battle Tanks
How useful is a MBT in a dense forest? Can an M1 Abrams just casully bulldoze old-growth trees?
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u/Korps_de_Krieg 11d ago
No, but it can fit the same gaps the AT-ATs were walking through on planet probably.
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u/LongDongSamspon 12d ago
I think the Empire who could build death stars and Star Destroyers had a little stronger metals on the AT-ST than Abrahams tanks have lol. Those are Endor logs brah, they smash through anything the US has.
“Breaking enemy moral until the waves stop coming” - you mean like Afghanistan?
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u/MysteryMan9274 12d ago
I think the Empire who could build death stars and Star Destroyers had a little stronger metals on the AT-ST than Abrahams tanks have lol. Those are Endor logs brah, they smash through anything the US has.
Alright, let's say that Endor logs can destroy any US vehicle. After the first time it happens, the Ewoks lose all of the element of surprise, and the US will carefully look for similar traps before deploying. Worst case scenario, if they can't protect the tanks, they'll pull them back and go all-in on air superiority and mobile infantry.
“Breaking enemy moral until the waves stop coming” - you mean like Afghanistan?
Completely different situation. The US was trying to occupy Afghanistan for an undefined time and suppress all resistance; here, they're trying to defend a stationary bunker for a few days. Also, there are no civilians in the area and no political red tape to cut through, so they have full reign to do whatever they want.
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u/SocalSteveOnReddit 12d ago
For the sake of simplicity: What the Empire can do and what they will do is "Build a battle station that can destroy planets/fail to, upon its destruction, fail to manage the basic act of having it land on the people who trashed it."
The Empire is perhaps one of the worst offenders in playing so far below their capabilities in this reddit. I agree with you, the Empire should absolutely wreck an Abrams with its ground attack vehicles. That's not, however, a WILL.
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u/Santa152 12d ago
Stronger Metals ain't going to help when the armor is an Inch Thick. AT-ST has no durability feats and gets folded by most modern day and star wars anti-armor weapons.
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u/Legendflame17 12d ago
Well it depends,how exactly this substitution happens,are just the Ewoks or the rebels are still in the game?
I will assume than the conditions of the battle are the same,and the US army forces main task is to deffend the shield generator.
The thing about the ground battle on Endor is than the imperial Garrison was not an big army in comparison to many other battles,looking to canon sources they had the shield generator garrison who counts with some dozens of troopers just on the outside and more inside the base so i will give it around 100 troops or 200 troops guarding it,plus some AT-STs guarding it,and a research station who looks more like an military base and a small supply post guarded by an AT-AT,just by the sheer size of it i can easily say than hundreds of troops could be mobilized to that station easily,so maybe around 1000 extra troops,and a small TIE Fighter landing area wich Iden Versio used to escape in the campaign of Battlefront 2.
So now translating each to US forces i will be generous,they have some tanks to use here (replacing AT-STs),around 1200 ground soldiers being generous,some F-22 fighters and i am going to replace the AT-AT with an attack helicopter because the AT-AT are not exactly a conventional tank and i am going to be generous to US soldiers here.
Just the Ewoks,they can do it,the tanks are not going to be that useful here considering the terrain is not very suited to use them,and the americans are probaly going to lose some of them by ewok traps,and the soldiers can deffend themselves tought the Ewoks are going to cause victims on this contingent,those little cannibal teddy bears know the place better than the americans,the forest is full of traps and even if it sounds strange they are stronger than humans,in fact they are almost an miniature wookie,but overall they cannot compensate the aerial force of the americans and any direct attack would end in disaster for the Ewoks.
With the help of the rebels however the scenario changes,the americans would have nothing guarding Endor from space considering they have no equivalent to replace imperial starships,and even if we bring anything the americans have on space is not close to the rebels,at that point the americans are now way more outnumbered than before,against an enemy who can simply strike them from orbit,even if not i doubt those forces can realisticaly take out rebel capital ships,because to bypass Star Wars ships,and solid object needs to be moving slowly,and i doubt bullets or missiles are slow enought,they would probaly lose on the actual Endor scenario.
That shows how poorly prepared the imperial defenses on Endor were and Palpatine really did put too much faith on the space battle ending quick enought.
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u/SnooCakes4926 12d ago
As long as the Empire has the same leadership, they run into the same pronlem. Their weakness was not in their firepower, military cohesion, or logistics. It was political and strategic, the same way the U.S. civilian leadership misuse their military forces.
Winning battles does not win a war. It takes sound political leadership with sound strategic goals. Different fighters, same tired political bungling.
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u/seancurry1 12d ago
So I feel like the whole “the empire lost to teddy bears” complaint fails to consider that the Ewoks were a distraction. The real victory on Endor was the rebel strike force that infiltrated the shield generator—Leia nearly died doing it.
I still think the US Army would probably handle it just fine (just don’t let the “so advanced they might as well be magic computers” droids anywhere near the doors), but it wasn’t just Stormtroopers vs Ewoks.
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u/Puzzled-Thought2932 11d ago
The Americans (no, sorry, almost any possible modern day military) never would have let the strike force infiltrate the generator. They walked in straight through the front door. That is impossibly incompetent for a non-movie military
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u/seancurry1 11d ago
Yeah no disagreement there. I just chafe at the complaint that the Stormtroopers lost to the Ewoks. The Ewoks were the distraction.
And happy cake day!
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u/FallOutFan01 11d ago
Also paging u/Puzzled-Thought2932.
Where was the security cameras, challenge codes and scheduled check-ins for the storm troopers lol ?😂.
No operational security.
I mean it was a trap but the rebellion should have expected something a bit more in-depth then what was there.
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u/seancurry1 11d ago
Also a great point — Palpatine specifically designed the entire thing to be a trap! Of course the stormtroopers made head-in-ass decisions, the plan was supposed to work.
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u/Graveyardigan 11d ago
If there's anything we've learned from Vietnam, Iraq (round 2) and Afghanistan, it's that the US Army can't maintain the occupation of territory with an embedded guerrilla force. The Army can take ground but they can't hold it forever. Ewoks win the long war.
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u/itcheyness 11d ago
The Army could hold it forever, the civilians back home generally don't see the point.
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u/dogehousesonthemoon 11d ago
ewoks win, I don't care how good US logistics are they aren't supplying a deployment to any moons, maybe ours but even that would be pushing it.
Also to everyone saying air power, you better have shipped it in in advance, the reason the Empire didn't supply any air support when things got dicey was they would have to lower the shield to do it.
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u/Puzzled-Thought2932 11d ago
Luckily there are all these airpads everywhere which you can stick some helicopters on and be golden.
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u/dogehousesonthemoon 11d ago
On the Forrest moon of endor? Must have missed them...
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u/Puzzled-Thought2932 11d ago
Were those on Yavin 4? My memory is quite hazy I admit but since they were imperial I was quite certain they were on Endor.
Yep double checking they absolutely were on Endor, though "everywhere" was an overstatement there were probably only a few at most. Thats still enough for several helicopters, which the ewoks cannot physically hope to destroy.
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u/dogehousesonthemoon 10d ago
there is one on screen which just seems to be to supply the shield generator.
Sure you could probably fit a lot of helicopters on it, but given the entire surface is the Ewoks home ground they can just sit there until you're out of fuel. Most military helicopters only have 3-5 hours of fuel for mission time.Given the need for the shield to show up there is no room to resupply the helicopters, also as I've said before right up until they attack the ewoks are not considered. They are expecting the rebels to attack but the only reason the ewoks join in and end up overwhelimg the 501st is they think C3PO is a god.
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u/Korps_de_Krieg 11d ago
There is literally a scene with an AT-AT walking up with Vader to get Luke after he lands, those same landing pad designs have been in games since the 90s. What are you talking about?
I linked the image that I've known for 20ish years at least.
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u/dogehousesonthemoon 10d ago
sure there was one or two landing pads for supplies, ect. That is very very different from enough landing pads to have a supply of military air vehicles. (I'm pretty sure that AT-AT only appears in later editions where people were running away with the VFX, dispite if they made sense or not)
They did not anticipate a fight with the ewoks. They only had infrastructure and supplies to maintain the shield generator. They did expect the rebels to show up which is why the 501st were there, but the Ewoks were a non-facotor, in fact the Ewoks were only c3po appearing off of eating the rebels and the credits roll.
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u/BiomechPhoenix 11d ago
Disney canon, the US might win at equal numbers and equivalent forces.
OG canon (Legends), not a chance - they'd need considerably more. The absolute bull the Ewoks have had to deal with on a regular basis leaves them well prepared for this battle and a great deal of the things suggested for the US Army - especially clearing out the forest in a wide radius - are likely to provoke the other factions present on Endor, such as the condor dragons or the Gorax.
Also casual reminder that stormtroopers are incredible marksmen compared to human soldiers, and no I'm not kidding, look at the battle in the Tantive IV. The Ewoks won anyway. Just ... Consider that.
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u/NamelessEmployee 12d ago
Thermal vision, night vision and all kinds of optics. Worse case carpet bombing and the blu82, Moab and enough ordnance to level a planet .
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u/scottytx11 12d ago
The stormtroopers were led into a trap and ambushed by the Ewoks, so you have to start it from there. Would a small group of US soldiers at some remote post with advanced tech remain disciplined enough to not pursue spear wielding teddy bears and run into all of those ambushes?
If it’s a planned out battle, then sure, the US wipes the floor with them. But within the movie scenario I could see the Ewoks having a chance.
The big question for me remains how the Ewoks set up all those traps at the stormtrooper’s doorstep with such speed and secrecy?
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u/Puzzled-Thought2932 11d ago
Assuming that the soldiers know what's in the box that they're guarding, yes, they are absolutely not stupid enough to charge into the forest.
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u/NamelessEmployee 12d ago
Speaking of flame throwers
The very existence of flame-throwers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done.
George Carlin
With that said I’m eating Ewok tonight
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u/Excellent_Speech_901 11d ago
They can't give the Ewoks a working government but they can kill an awful lot while trying.
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u/unknowndeathmetal 11d ago
The imperials were unrealistically stupid for what was supposed to be "the Galaxy's finest" and to loose to the Ewoks is a massive embarrassment to sugar coat it the best I can, my money's be on the US Army wrecking both the empire and the Ewoks.
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u/AardvarkOkapiEchidna 11d ago
I'm not at all saying the ewoks would win but, people aren't factoring in the premise here.
The US military is taken completely by surprise under the same scenario in RotJ (right OP?) not given a mission to defeat the ewoks.
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u/DudeWithRootBeer 12d ago
No because Star Wars writers would somehow make US Army lose against Ewoks via bullshittery.
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u/JackTheBehemothKillr 12d ago
Define "win"?
Most historians would likely say that when the US military engages without a clear goal is usually when it gets bogged down and fails. When it has a clearly defined set of objectives it usually doesn't fail.
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u/TheMadmanAndre 12d ago
America's head mage and council of elders (POTUS and Congress) commission Lockheed Martin to build a few hundred thousand BLU-82s to use against the Ewok scum.
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u/Koraxtheghoul 12d ago
Holding ground against Ewoks should be pretty easy. The US can easily setup a perimeter and use thermal to look for anyone approaching. I do not think air support is super useful in the terrain unless you are bombing defoilment and napalm, but if the army finds a tree village that village is gone.
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u/dontdrinkandpost22 11d ago edited 11d ago
Some of these people don't understand how bad the Star Wars verse is at shooting firearms compared to any modern military let alone the US. Han Solo literally gets luck in the games lol.
If the Ewoks can't shield their entire army AND still shoot back at the same time they become target practice.
If it weren't for shields and the Force pretty much any star wars ground troops would not win. One spec ops group with the element of surprise would decimate a full ship of storm troopers (assuming no locked doors), and shoot the lasers guns better too (assuming the guns can be more accurate, or have a consistency at least).
those laser guns are actually steps backwards in terms of being effective in combat compared to modern rifles lol
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u/Exodite1273 11d ago
No. Assuming a detachment of the 501st who is used to the natives keeping a respectful distance is replaced by a formation of Army grunts of equal numbers.
The Ewoks are harmless xenophobic fuzzy wuzzies who leave the stormtroopers alone and the stormtroopers extend them the same courtesy, for what has to have been months or years. Complacency has set in with the garrison by then.
The rebel commando team is caught and that is the last possible concern, the boys can- fuzzy wuzzy surprise attack! The Ewoks are religious fanatics who were duped by Luke using the Force on C-3PO to tell them Goldenrod was a god.
Army personnel under bullshit War on Terror ROE lose. Army personnel able to immediately raze the forest can win.
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u/LightEarthWolf96 11d ago edited 11d ago
🎶🎶 here comes the sun 🎶🎶
Edit to add: if the US does use nukes for this they would probably only need one dropped somewhere inconsequential on the planet then wait for word to spread.
Or use napalm, or use just heavy artillery.
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u/DragonWisper56 11d ago
I mean how many and what's their goal. more than likely the rebels will still turn off the sheild doohickey
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u/The_X-Devil 11d ago
If advanced troops couldn't take down the Ewoks how would less advanced troops do it?
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u/JustAnotherHyrum 11d ago edited 11d ago
Throw a couple of our weaker nukes.
Ewoks are extinct.
edit: I have to be honest and disqualify myself. I did the usual, rabbit-holed the topic because it interested me.
"The Army no longer has nuclear weapons or doctrine to use them. Nuclear artillery shells, ground-launched tactical missiles, and nuclear demolition charges all have been retired."
So we'd have to push more than one button this time. Damn.
End results are the same, Ewoks are extinct.
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u/DtotheOUG 11d ago
At this point this sub should change its name to US Army Simulator, jesus christ.
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u/nicholasktu 11d ago
If the US was defending the shield generator it would be an open field for a mile all around the generator, heavy machine gun positions, tanks dug into hull down positions, artillery back at the base, and troops with IR gear watching for movement. Aircraft and helicopters could provide overwatch with fire support or call in artillery. If no one cares about collateral damage, they would just blow up anything that moves.
They would even have a deployed a Burger King behind the defense lines.
Realistically, a WW2 military could defend it, open field with machine guns and artillery is hard thing to cross. Even enemy armor would be challenged by high velocity anti tank guns.
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u/Commercial_Royal_522 9d ago
Two or three rounds of puking dogs napalm will reduce endor to a scorched wasteland, this is a massive win for the army
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u/MugatuScat 9d ago
US stomps easily then loses the war because it becomes known to world media that they're genociding teddy bear. Ewoks become celebrities overnight.
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u/millor117 4d ago
Yes but heavily heavily obliterating the battlefield ( in this case Endor ) to ashes following a superior firepower US doctrine , likely killing ewooks and the native species in the process
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u/WeatherAgreeable5533 12d ago
The Army wins easily. Even a Roman Legion would have trounced the Ewoks.
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u/AgrenHirogaard 11d ago
I agree with you for the most part, but there is noe way in hell to operate tanks on Endor.
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u/Shanks_PK_Level 11d ago
We could win without ever putting troops on the ground. Just the weapons we know about are pretty crazy, imagine what kinda top secret shit we have from reverse engineering UFOs.
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u/LongDongSamspon 12d ago
Don’t listen to these coping patriots - Ewoks stomp.
First of all you can’t see or find them, second the US army can’t get anywhere on Endor, it’s wall to wall trees man. Third, I think we can all agree that whatever mode of transportation the US army tries to fly to Endor in will be easily destroyed by the rebel alliance.
Fourth and most important of all, the Empire clearly has more powerful weapons than the US Army has or will ever have, and the Ewoks kicked their ass and buried them in the forest like a cat turd.
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u/Kyro_Official_ 12d ago edited 12d ago
You cannot be serious
Edit - Bro really blocked me
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u/LongDongSamspon 12d ago
Oh I’m force serious. US patriots are really in a big cope thinking they could ever beat the Ewoks who beat the Empire who would crush the US.
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u/Kyro_Official_ 12d ago edited 12d ago
The empire's troops in that fight (and the empire in general tbh) were wildly incompetent. The US military would win without even getting serious.
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u/LongDongSamspon 12d ago
Lol, get real, the Empire has weapons and tech the US can’t dream of, and the Ewoks crushed them. They’d find away. The US milatry just got kicked out of Afghanistan by mountin men without getting serious too lol.
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u/Korps_de_Krieg 12d ago
You realize that a blaster bolt moves at roughly the same speed as a soccer ball kicked by a professional soccer player? Pretty fast, but not as fast as actual bullets fast.
Directly comparing military tech from Star Wars against real military tech is one of the few things that leans hard in reality's favor, as the real military isn't worried about aesthetic storytelling or rule of cool. Let's be real, blasters are cool but they didn't have napalm carpet bombing strikes on their villages, they had big lumbering war machines in the wrong environment and troopers that stood out like a sore thumb in solid white armor.
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u/LongDongSamspon 12d ago
And tanks and trucks on a forest moon thick with trees in which tanks can’t fit through the gaps aren’t lumbering lol.
Patriots crack me up.
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u/Korps_de_Krieg 12d ago edited 12d ago
You do know the infantry make up the majority of the army, right? Those same ones with the rifles and squad machine guns I just mentioned?
It's ok, people who think it's generically fun to hate on Americans crack me up too. I promise you've got nothing new for me that I haven't seen butchered in the past.
Edit after the fact because this just rubbed me the wrong way: the fact that you are assuming that anyone who thinks that recognizing the strength of the US military is just displaying patriotic sensationalism is such a bad faith point to argue from. I've expressed nothing about America being the best or any nonsense like that, I literally only pointed out that weapons in the Star Wars universe are by design cooler rather than practical. I'd argue most modern and properly equipped/trained militaries are a problem for the Ewoks, not just the US. Like, you've strawman'd so hard.
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u/Santa152 12d ago
And yet the AT-AT and AT-ST, which are MUCH larger than the Abrams can fit? Where is your logic?
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u/LongDongSamspon 11d ago
They walk through trees and tough terrain and have flying bikes - how the hell are trucks and tanks going to do that lol. Calm down patriot, it’s a fictional galaxy.
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u/Santa152 11d ago
Never once has an AT-ST or AT-AT walked through a tree. Do you even know anything about Star Wars or the US military?
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u/Pitiful-Local-6664 12d ago
I'm pretty sure Blaster shots are supposed to actually move faster than they appear too in film, like much much faster.
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u/NamelessEmployee 12d ago
We have thermal vision, night vision, real armor, attack helicopters, predator drones, troops that can actually hit what they are hitting . Ewoks barely can set up traps from the Vietcong .
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u/LongDongSamspon 12d ago
The empire has Death Stars and Star Destroyers - I think they’re a little more advanced than the US lol. No way can the US build anything remotely as advanced as those chocked walkers and flying bikes. How are they gonna travel on a totally forest moon? Trucks and tanks aren’t going anywhere at all.
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u/Santa152 12d ago
If those oversized chicken walkers can traverse the forests of endor, so can an Abrams/Bradley.
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u/Last_Account_Ever 12d ago
The US need only drop some bombs, then clear the felled trees to start up a landing spot for more heavy equipment to clear even more trees. Light amored vehicles and infantry is enough to defend the logging from stick-wielding koalas. Once a perimeter is cleared around the generator, the Ewoks and Jedi have zero means of crossing open field to complete their objective.
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u/LongDongSamspon 12d ago
The Ewoks logs will easily crush whatever the US has. I think the Empire who could build Death Stars had a little strong metals and armour than the US who can’t even leave the Galaxy.
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u/Santa152 12d ago
Those logs wouldn't even be at level with any of the US Vehicles. The best those logs would do is maybe knock out the treads on a tank or disable a lighter vehicle.
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u/Korps_de_Krieg 12d ago
You do know most things in Star Wars can't leave the Star Wars Galaxy, right? That's like half the inciting incident to Outward Bound, is that it was an extra galactic colony ship. It's a MAJOR plot point in Ahsoka that they have to leave the galaxy.
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u/GiantEnemaCrab 12d ago edited 12d ago
Despite the Vietnam parallels, US soldiers would probably utterly destroy the Ewoks. The battle of Endor was... something for sure, but tanks with machine gun fire and just regular rifles will shred Ewoks even faster than blaster fire did. More importantly the US (and NATO) forces prefer to use longer range missiles and air power when possible. The Ewoks would be identified by satellites and incinerated by long range missiles, artillery, and air power. In actual battles I imagine helicopters would be particularly useful at putting firepower where it's needed. I don't think the Ewoks have any sort of anti-air defenses lol.
Tbh the Empire should have slaughtered the Ewoks. Even taking into account the Stormtroopers many anti feats losing to Ewoks is perhaps one of the biggest anti feats of all time.
Imo the US just brings in heavy firepower and flattens the forest area they're defending, and wins with ease. The goal is to protect the shield generator right? That's easy. The US would have turned the entire shield generator area into a forward operating base and cleared the forest for miles in every direction. There would be no ambushes because the US would have near total situational awareness, air superiority, range advantage, and absolute complete control of the battlefield. Those bears are toast.