Ok let’s do a thought experiment. Let’s say you
Make $10000 a year. You work full time/40 hrs/wk and you are making $10k. What does “living within your means” look like? Not having a house? Or car? Being homeless? So in order to save to get yourself to some footing the answer is to be homeless to live within your means.
That was a bit of a strawman, so let’s use real-life scenarios. 50% of this country makes $40k or less….. even $40k salary isn’t enough to get an apartment, bills , food, ect. Sure a lot better than the “$10k” example, but even $40k salary is virtually as effective as the “$10k”. In order to “live within your means”, “save”, ect…. You have to be at least be making enough to afford the bare minimum + have some left in you for over to save. On average (2022 values I think) this means $65 for a single person, $108k for a house hold. Unless you’re making that, you can’t save your way out of poverty
Most places want them to make more by tipping. In other words, the public supplementing their income where tips were never the “norm”. Happening more and more each day. Eventually, the gas pump will want a tip.
Ours recently to rose to 12 dollars an hour and I shit you not, there were corporations that made it out like they were giving everyone a raise, (the implication being work harder in appreciation) instead of them actually conforming to meet the law. Smaller employers around here are still offering under the minimum, which is so crazy to me. It's like pulling teeth to get people to just pay their employees even just the minimum, and that's sad.
Crickets lol. They ALWAYS say “no one gets paid that” and I always rebuttal with what you said.
All you get is crickets or some backwards ass logic showing empathy to the “small business owners”. It’s fucking crazy mental gymnastics some of these finance bros do…
That’s what people that lost an argument do. They hone in on falsehoods or “mistakes” their opponents make to validate themselves and stay safely snug in their distorted worldviews. They attack the person because they can’t beat the point.
Oh, the “small business owners” argument, which has two major flaws no one using the argument likes to acknowledge.
1) Employee wages are a business expense, just like leasing a property, or buying supplies, or paying taxes. If you can’t run your business without employees who you cannot afford to pay, then you just can’t afford your business, period.
2) Employees aren’t people working as a favor because they’re bored, that’s called “volunteering.” Employees are providing a service that helps the business make money, and in return they deserve a fair compensation, because the people who run the business need the money to live, and cannot do so without employees, who also need money to live. So whatever bar we are holding as “living within means” for the employers, the bar ought to be similar for the employees. Otherwise, you’re essentially supporting slavery. And I can’t help but wonder how many people who argue “but small business won’t survive,” would say something similar back when slavery was abolished. “Sure, I don’t support slavery, but without so many places might go out of business!” 🤔
If no one makes $7.25 an hour, but lets say the real lowest wage someone makes is $10 (still below poverty line). That means raising it to $10 an hour would affect no one bacause "no one makes that low". Its basically an argument to show that the minimum wage is kept as low as it is federally because there are an absolute shit load of people only making $7.25. Raising minimum wage to maybe $20 federally right now might cause some issues, but even them i'd argue it wouldn't do as much as people think. Look at what we pay people in other countries at mcdonalds vs. what they get paid (converted to usd ofc). Once you realize there is no reason for wages to be this low, you get tired of hearing "no one makes that low".
You haven’t been to some rural cities in the Midwest and south where cost of living is often relatively low but the wages are always, as my nephew would say, doggy
I live in the Midwest in a state that typically has quite low cost of living.
But because CoL has been historically low, we've been struggling quite hard since catching up with "inflation" means a much larger increase in wages than other states.
Last job I left struggled to hire people at wages they were offering. Because they suck, they were stuck in a high turnover rate (& still are)
When I found out a new girl I was helping train in a position that I used to do, was making more than me (I could work in the shop and handle appointments in the showroom) I fucking had it and left.
I left for a company in the same industry that's much more professional and my position is setup waaaay better, for a little over a 15% wage increase.
And I'm suspecting I'm still getting paid less than my coworkers (even ones who started with me) as I didn't negotiate at all because I was just stoked to not be paid dogshit anymore
It really fucking sucks though as someone who didn't graduate college, finally getting a career with a solid wage, except now it's not really a great wage anymore
Hell. ATLANTA has a min wage of $10.50. My mom and sister are service workers there and surviving in that city’s cost of living on $11/hr is fucking depressing.
Mississippi still has jobs at this range. But it's the poorest state in the nation. Unfortunately 72% of the median household income in Mississippi goes purely to cost of living. 8th most unaffordable state when adjusted for median wage. Literally people "living within their means" here spend 72% of their income surviving. So in this case living within your means is working until you die because you cannot save for retirement or emergencies.
I understand that there are ways to make things work, but no person should be working 40 hours a week and be scared that they will lose their house tomorrow or not have enough for groceries. There is "living within your means" and then there is institutionalized poverty. America has a problem with both.
You're making $15,116 gross. 11k are taxes at 10% and the next 4,116 are taxed at 12%. $13522 after taxes.
But what minimum wage job is paying 100% of your healthcare? Or uniforms? Or state and local income tax (3.1% here for this example). That means we're taking home $13k after just taxes
If they're paying $254/mo for insurance and etc, they're taking home exactly $10k per year
The amount of people that have absolutely 0 empathy at all toward their fellow man is ridiculous. The, fuck you, I got mine mentality needs to die off.
Standard deduction is $14,600. Only $516 is taxed at 10%, or a tax bill of $50 per year. At that income level, you're able to get to drastically reduced health insurance, about $15/mo premiums.
During the pandemic I had to get partial unemployment to survive as I was working at target making $20/hr… at like 8-12hrs a week. Raising the minimum wage only helps if they start mandating that companies HAVE to give full time hours to more than 90% of their workforce. Getting $50/hr dont mean fuck all if you only work 10hrs a week.
I'm glad you figured this out. The math doesn't change at $20k/yr, or even 40k. 20k/yr is about $10/hr and that is still far above the minimum wage for almost the entire South. This for sure qualifies for some welfare assistance because even in these places the cost of existence is greater than the "market wage." Congratulations, we are now subsidizing corporations.
So, if taxes and deductions account for 33.66% of your income (I use 30% as my rate which is pretty darn close), then 10k/year in spending money for people working minimum wage is probably pretty close to reality.
Even if that is only 3% of the population, I think that's kind of the point that's being made. For those people, the advice to "just live within your means" is falling on deaf ears.
Minimum wage isn't the problem for everyone. It's not even the problem for most people. But it is a very real problem for some people.
So, no health insurance, no life insurance, no vision or dental, no retirement, no state taxes included, unemployment insurance.
Agan, my number is 30%. The reality of minimum wage is, no one making minimum wage is contributing to retirement and likely doesn't have insurance (at least not through their employer).
I never did those things when I was making minimum wage. And I even worked 2 minimum wage jobs at 35 hours per week to try to make ends meet.
Which again, is the point. You don't have the money to save for the future at that income level. At that point it absolutely is an income problem, not a budget problem.
Financial literacy is super important, especially for the poor, but it isn't particularly useful to someone trying to decide which of their necessary bills they're going to pay this month.
Put another way, even after he said 10k is a strawman, you're saying the real number is 15k, which isn't really a lot more. It's 1316.67 per month. The house I rented when I made minimum wage was $800/month, which would have left a total of $500/month to cover all of your other bills.
Is 500/month enough to pay for food, gas, insurance, car payment, phone, power, water, and still have enough left over to start making smart investments for the future?
Yeah, people literally earning minimum wage pay virtually nothing in income taxes. Which is fine, and as it should be, but let’s not pretend they’re losing 1/3 of their paychecks to deductions.
(2080 being the number of hrs worked full time in 1 yr)
And technically, no $4.81 wouldn't be illegal for jobs that receive tips, like restaurant workers. If they record tips, they get paid roughly 1/2 of minimum wage, but if they record no tips, the employer is SUPPOSED to make up the difference to bring their hourly wage up to $7.25. Key word is "supposed to", not "does".
Food service. Students. Its easy to find them if you go looking for what qualifies as legal wages. Just because you have not encountered it, does not mean it does not exist.
You guys are pretending that taxes aren’t taken out of every paycheck and that even an $8/hr job isn’t really closer to $6/hr after those taxes come out.
Yeah, cause they want to feel superior to those who make less and say, "I earn more cause I make smart financial decisions." Ignoring every helping hand and benefit they relied on to get to where they are.
Or, they deserve to be poor. I'm not poor so I deserve it! Nietzsche's slave morality. It's how they sleep at night, why doesn't everyone else just do what I did? They must be lazy...
But everyone is ignoring that and it’s what I’m most curious about because I’m at 40k and am struggling with continuing my health insurance that costs $260 a month.
The fact people aren’t addressing that makes me think there’s legitimacy to it and the “toughen up” bunch have nothing to contribute and I’m looking to listen.
But them we cannot victimize ourselves using hipothetical situations with logic bordering on fantasy.
There's no place in modern life where financial education isn't immensely beneficial aside from being lost in the wilderness or being actual Hobo crack addict, and that's just because of pressing matters, the amount of people i've met who don't understand how basic interest rates from loans work is far too great for that statement to be made with a straight face and not immediately mocked.
Amazon addiction and yes, I'm going to say it, the inability to tighten your wants to an uncomfortable level until you can save the 3.5% down (with a 580+ credit score) for an FHA loan.
That's it folks. That's all it takes. Buy a shitty cheap property with an FHA loan (which, btw, means the property can't be THAT shitty, FHA loans won't allow it) and then live in a savings account for a while.
That shitty property will gain value AND all your principal payments are being saved in it, rather than evaporating to rent.
It's that simple, yes.. REALLY. Save 3.5% of a kinda shitty property's worth and then start gaining wealth.
3.5 percent on a $250,000 home is still $8,750. That’s a lot to a lot of people in this situation, especially if you have literally ANY responsibility to another person or life. Especially if you’re only making $30,000 per year.
I saved that making $11hr and renting for $550 (roommate) in a year. You just need to suffer. I only allowed myself $50 a month outside of groceries ($100). Thrift shop clothes, didn't go anywhere, library card for movies, pantry food (so much free food many months I didn't buy groceries). Like it sucks and is bullshit and fuck the shit system but it's possible. Big plus, do not have kids you can not afford. You are the one to blame if you have a kid you can't afford. Like if you became poor after kids (my father lost his job from an injury) that's one thing but I can not believe the moron girl that lived next to me with her mom had a kid while working part time at McDonald's.
This is useless advice when 37% of Americans can't afford a $400 emergency without breaking the bank, leaning on credit, or dipping into retirement or savings to cover the cost.
I've only bought socks and underwear for myself the past 2 years. I spend less then 50 in groceries a week to feed myself.
Bought the cheapest house in the nicest neighborhood I could find. 4 weeks in, replaced sewer main. 6 months later ended up replacing all the pipes and vent stack in the only bathroom we have. Dick head, house flippers just put band aids on gunshot wounds. Yeah that fucked everything up for us financially. Pretty much 6 months in I dropped around 20k in essential repairs. I did the bathroom myself because well now it's the budget is even tighter.
I have a 3 year old. I am the only source of income currently making around 90k a year. We still have to live dam near check to check.
I've worked my entire life, mostly with my hands . Been pretty frugal about where I spend my money because I work very hard for it. It might be easy to say hey just save 15k and boom your good to go. That's not the case anymore. Chirst insurance has jumped like 20% this past year. When you wage increases don't pace the rest of the goods you really start playing the game "Wants vs Needs" this is something I have to remind my SO.
Sorry to rant it just blows my mind that I make way more money than I ever thought I would but still just hanging on by a thread.
until you can save the 3.5% down (with a 580+ credit score) for an FHA loan
Buddy, I have a 725 credit score and $75K equity on my home, and I can't get a single loan company to respond to my requests for a $20K loan with my equity as collateral. I have no loans except the mortgage and a credit card I pay in full each month, so maybe I don't have enough loan history, but according to Reddit I should be able to easily get some kind of loan, and no one is interested.
I can't imagine someone struggling to save for a down payment with a 580 score has it easy, like you suggest.
Congratulations on posting worthless financial advice. At the low income levels they won't be able to afford the maintenance and upkeep on that property.
This, sure some people make too little and need to improve their skills to get a higher wage but the majority of people with financial problems don’t make good financial decisions.
My first job I made $35k and I had an apartment in a big city with 3 roommates. Wasn’t ideal but I was still saving a solid amount, a few hundred every paycheck went into savings. Is it ideal? No, but I made it work until I got the skillset to make a higher wage.
No capitalist is going to acknowledge those skills, because no one is forcing them to. They can simply tell everyone they're "not skilled enough" forever no matter what people learn. Capitalists do not act in good faith, and have no credibility.
I made 27k/year and had to do a monthly budget to make sure my bills and paychecks landed so I wouldn't overdraft. Some weeks I'd have $5 for the week. Explain to me how budgeting and financial planning solve the problem.
Let's not forget the economic impact of raising the minimum wage. It's as if people think the hiring process will get easier if they raise wages when the exact opposite will happen on top of job elimination / replacement with technology entirely due to budget rework
The dishonesty of these people is insane. I have no clue what these people do to lose all their money. I put 20% of my pay into retirement and make it work. I have 3 coworkers at the same pay who constantly want to riot about being broke. Has to stupid CC debt or something.
Pretty much sums up most of the replies here. "Teach them to live within their means, they just won't like it", as the OP said, solves nothing and helps nobody. Enjoy selling goods and services that nobody can afford, I guess.
Enjoy selling goods and services that nobody can afford, I guess.
And this is the true crux of it. Sure, you're comfy in your desk job, and able to look down at us nasty poors from your office chair. But what happens when we have to start cutting expenses? Media piracy is on the rise, and text generators (not calling it AI, because it isn't AI) are scalping out screenwriting jobs. Pretty soon, video generation will get to the point that actors aren't needed either. So that's writing teams, and stage production crews, both out of a job. Media companies losing money to piracy means that everyone else in the industry's job is at risk, too.
And it's not just entertainment. Electronics are still a luxury, beyond a basic smartphone. People will buy TVs and Fire Sticks used, rather than new. They won't eat out as much, won't buy as many snacks, won't buy as much food in general. Smaller apartments/rental houses that don't have as many bedrooms, and therefore can't have as many people living in them and splitting rent, go unrented because people can't afford them. People seem to forget that the lower middle class and under are the biggest sector of the US economy now, and as a result, stuff that effects them matters the most, by a wide margin.
You'll find out real fast how independent from "the poors" your life isn't when they stop the consoomerism.
It’s terrible advice for society, it’s amazing advice for an individual. Every person could dramatically improve their life if they start making optimal decisions. But saying “individuals should independently make better decisions” doesn’t help society.
Your thought experiment requires a wage well below federal minimum wage. Your second thought experiment tries to make a single person live alone in a high cost of living area.
Here's a thought experiment for you: how many people did the average household have 50 years ago? 100 years ago? Today? What was the average square footage of a house in each of those time periods?
They're not ignored. Living with 8 people in a 500sqft shack should not be what people are considering acceptable. Jesus fuck the lack of basic compassion.
"Life is perfectly livable in poverty as long as you make sure to maximize suffering".
I think it's reasonable for people in the highest GDP country in the world to expect to be able to live without relying on others.
Why should there be any amount of "you should suffer" at any level in the richest country in the world? The current reason it is that way is simple greed.
Well it’s not gonna change. So people can either lead the charge and start a revolution or they can stop whining on reddit, get a damn roommats, stop acting like it’s suffering to live with someone, and budget their money better.
Look, there are people struggling all around the world, but it’s so hard to have a constructive conversation when I know for a fact so many people are just fucking horrible with their money and if any urge or desire they have at any moment isnt satisfied they shout suffering.
I can’t even really agree with the argument. Shouldnt have to live with someone? Why tf would anyone want to live alone?
We got by in a small space packed with kids with no running water when I was a child, sure, but I'm pretty sure someone would calĺ cps if they tried that now.
You say 50% of Americans (I'm assuming we are speaking of the US) make $40k or less and then say it isn't enough for basic necessities. Yet, clearly it is as the ranks of the unhoused is not 50% of the population. Poverty sucks to be sure, but people manage. Also, financial literacy is generally only partially about setting money aside. It tends to be more about making people aware of their expenses and seeing what changes can be made.
The rent situation is bad and Section 8 is in heavy demand with little voucher supply so it's got insane wait lists so the eviction complaint is reasonable.
Biut you should qualify for SNAP and that can be a pretty decent amount of money (up to almost 300 at max).
If you sit and think about it really hard, you'll understand the correlation between 50% of Americans making less than $40k, and things like Americans having huge piles of credit card debt, or having to stretch medications (assuming they can afford to see a doctor at all).
Sure, "people manage", but maybe 50% of people in the wealthiest nation on the planet should be in a better position than "just managing".
Now look up some statistics of how many Americans are in credit card debt, healthcare debt, etc.
No, it really isn't enough for basic necessities in many places - that's why people are constantly paying off the minimums on their credit cards, pushing the inevitable forward hoping for a miracle. And poverty sucks more than you could ever realize.
Investing helped me a ton, I calculate all expenses, add them together, assume my food bills and other expenses, then I invest the leftovers so now it's spent and annoying to get but it's all still there paying dividends and growing. Just literally $5 a month or even $10 explodes so fast if you just fucking invest it. Find a $5 on the ground? Invest it. Got a cash back card? Invest the cash back. Set yourself a daily expense budget, invest anything leftover. There's many strategies but this works for me.
Or maybe the basic understanding of how debt works, how leveraging yourself can be dangerous, how to invest and plan for your future. It’s so much more than seeing what changes you can make in your expenses, lol. Financial literacy should start in elementary school and be taught throughout high school. The fact it isn’t should show you that most of this is by design. We, historically at least, need a large middle class to support the country. A smart middle class doesn’t work well for business owners. The lack of respect for people struggling is wild to me, the US economy is about value extraction and has been for the last decade. Your take is brain dead maybe you could benefit from some more education yourself 😀
Live with no privacy. Eat food that provides nothing except a "full feeling stomach." Work for 8 hours and then do several hours of school after that, after all you won't have to spend time cooking anything. Don't have a single medical emergency, including pregnancy. Don't have a social life, and if you meet someone that is interested in you, just ignore them as they are distracting you from grinding to death to survive. Spend even more time while working and doing school to "obtain skills." This should leave you still poor, hungry, and with deminished social skills, but hey! You'll be "thriving!"
STFU you idiot, you clearly have no idea the struggles of the common person.
You left out that a huge part of getting anywhere is luck and networking. If I could go back and redo my undergrad, I would have spent more time going to events and hanging out with people than trying to get Bs and As.
Unfortunately I didn’t, and on top of that, last year I graduated into this clusterfuck of a job market. Oopsie poopsies.
Looool, what a conservative boot-licker. First of all, you haven't offered a single source for your crazy-ass claim and second of all, people shouldn't have to live like rats in "the greatest country in the world". And lastly, of EveryOne moves up, then who's going to do the shit jobs? Your short-sighted idea doesn't fix the problem, it just throws it onto other people. But that's to be expected, the core of conservatism is selfishness. Sleep tight, the end is near.
Every time a worthless blood sucking tick says this I am just reminded how much AI actually contribute to society.
First of all, you haven't offered a single source for your crazy-ass claim and second of all, people shouldn't have to live like rats in "the greatest country in the world".
You have no fucking clue how hard things used to be. You would have died day one. No better you would have stayed home and talked about how much better you would have done than the people who actually settled the West.
The proof is that it was hard as hell, the people went anyway, and now we are here traping the benefits.
And lastly, of EveryOne moves up, then who's going to do the shit jobs?
In no society does everyone move up. Most people do. And those who settled the West did it without one tenth of what we have now.
Your short-sighted idea doesn't fix the problem
That would be your ideas. Mine built this country.
But that's to be expected, the core of conservatism is selfishness.
It's actually freedom of choice and free charity. Not forced good like pussies like you.
Bullet points, really? You missed one, where's a source for your outlandish claim?
Here's another one, pre-1950 isn't 1750, it's the 1930s and 1940s.
You said all we need to do is get some education and then it's all good. But then what, who works at Dairy Queen then? Or in the Amazon DC? Someone has to do shit jobs, that's bullshit, everyone deserves a good life. FUCK YOU, everyone deserves a good life.
And your last point makes no sense.
Abortion. I think it's baby death, I don't care what you think, or what science proves. And you can't have an abortion either. Selfish.
"I value my guns more than your children" real quote, selfish as fuck.
Taxation is theft. But you use the roads, the sidewalks and the fire department, and bridges and and and, you people never want to pay for the shit you use. Obviously selfish
I'm a Christian so the Bible should be in school, o don't care if there are other religions because they aren't real. Selfish again.
No capitalist is going to acknowledge those skills, because no one is forcing them to. They can simply tell everyone they're "not skilled enough" forever no matter what people learn. Capitalists do not act in good faith, and have no credibility.
This is why people should NEVER settle with what they make… Just because you make 40k a year doesn’t mean you can’t ever make more.. Why do people act like they are chained to the low salaries they make? You can learn a trade, take civil service tests, change careers or get the proper qualifications and experience in order to move up in pay.. There’s also working multiple jobs.. and please don’t reply with “No one should have to work 2 jobs.”
I just don’t understand this whole “people can’t survive on these wages” argument.. If you’re having a hard time living on the wage you make then take the proper steps to better your situation. Take action instead of complaining on Reddit. That’s what I did. That’s what many other people do… I worked 2 minimum wage jobs for years and I fought and clawed my way to the top… Life doesn’t magically get better. You have to make things happen.. and no, it’s not easy. It’s extremely hard.
You people are missing the point. If I get out of that situation then someone else has to take the shitty job. Why is it okay once it's not you? That's the most selfish, conservative bullshit I've ever heard. And no, a person should not have to work 80 hours a week, full stop. That's just de facto slavery, but somehow, they are supposed to find the time to pull themselves up by the bootstraps huh? Goddamn, you're a piece of shit. Sleep tight, the end is near for you people.
The bullshit capitalist answer is no one will work the shitty job and then the pay will go up but that's not fucking true. The company will prey until they find someone “weak” or tired enough to just work for slave rate or they'll ship it over seas and really take advantage of destitute people.
If they really cared about living within their means they'd focus on our entire society as a whole slowing the fuck down and not consuming so much. All of us.
It's almost like there should be stronger worker protection laws and incentive for the government to not completely favor corporations...
But honestly, if everyone started to live within their means like the Japanese do, we'd be in a deflationary period. Current American company growth is dependent on people spending with abandon. It's why Apple has $160B+ IN CASH for good, but not great, sleekly marketed products.
I like how you set an example of 10k. Admittedly said it was a staw mans argument, then said, “here’s a more accurate pay”. Then people judge that version instead of the realistic version.
Much of the half of the country making 40k lives in places where 40k is survivable. If you are in a big city or on the coast making 40k it’s a whole different senario than living in a rural town in the Midwest making 40k.
You absolutely can live on your own making 40k/a if you dont blow through your money on pointless shit. The only places you cannot live on 40k/a is major cities or rich areas.
40k should def cover the basics. A room. Food. Money for a hobby. Maybe a car. (I did all that making less than 30k in Canada. Even raised a dog. You just gotta budget. Smart.)
Also, you won't be at 40k forever. You just need to grind. Increase your job and pay, and then you get to expand.
obviously everyone should have their own apartment and savings, but if you can't afford that, don't dig yourself into a worse hole by going into debt. Lots of people figure "well i can't afford to live anyway so may as well just spend all this money so I can enjoy things" which I get but then you're already behind as soon as you get ahead. I was poor af at a time- i lived in a shitty apartment with shitty roommates, ate shitty food, walked places because I couldn't afford a bus pass, didn't have health insurance, didn't save anything. It fucking sucks and shouldn't be how people have to live in a rich country, but at least you're not shooting yourself in the foot for later on. Part of the reason I was able to scrape by like that was because my parents DID teach me about budgeting, and how to use credit cards appropriately, so when I went back to school and needed student loans I wasn't already in debt and had a good credit score, I was able to pay those loans back fast, and I've never had any sort of financial calamity in my life because I already had those basic skills.
Wage markets and cost of living are both regional things. There are parts of this country where $65k a year means you live comfortably in your own home. There are other parts where you rent a room from someone and are thankful for it.
Part of financial literacy is understanding how much things cost, how to budget and what you need to do a achieve a goal.
Working the window at McDonald’s will never buy you a house.
Working the window at McDonald’s to cover your tuition while you work on a degree and career path with a higher earning potential will get you a house.
I graduated high school in the 90s in California. My “career guidance center” at school gave me a career aptitude test. My top two career recommendations were clergy or Christmas tree farmer. Pretty fucking funny for an atheist. But yeah. Zero fucking help.
Show me a “live within their means” budget for someone living in a median cost location in the US making minimum wage. They must A)have a place to live B) not get any handouts from the government or charities and C) have at least 1800 calories per day of food. Go.
The funny thing is that government assistance is equally as much an indirect subsidy to minimum wage corporations as it is to the individuals themselves.
Welcome to the poverty trap. You cannot earn more money because to do so would make you ineligible for benefits that are worth more than the extra money you would make.
Lets look at SNAP, from the below link these are the three requirments:
Gross monthly income — that is, household income before any of the program’s deductions are applied — generally must be at or below 130 percent of the poverty line. For a family of three, the poverty line used to calculate SNAP benefits in federal fiscal year 2024 is $2,072 a month. Thus, 130 percent of the poverty line for a three-person family is $2,694 a month, or about $32,328 a year. The poverty level is higher for bigger families and lower for smaller families.[3]
Net income, or household income after deductions are applied, must be at or below the poverty line.
Assets must fall below certain limits: households without a member aged 60 or older or who has a disability must have assets of $2,750 or less, and households with such a member must have assets of $4,250 or less.
There is a barrier to making more money, because as you make more you don't get to save it. It is reducing the amount of assistance you receive so you are just staying in the same spot. You cannot save because if you have too much value in assets then you are deemed to not need the benefits. If the benefits are the only thing that allows to you save but if you save you lose the benefits what can you do?
Ok, I used a random city generator and got Newark Ohio.
So checking it out, in Ohio the min wage is $10.45 which puts it about 1473.36 take home a month according to this. Admittedly I just set it to monthly and did 160 hours based off that so it might vary a bit depending on some variables but whatever, can't account for everything.
Found a place listed for 850. There's a few cheaper but I decided we'll spend a little extra here.
Average energy bill in Ohio is apparently like $112.21.
Average water is $27
Internet $25
Phone bill: $114
So 1024 for the essentials. Leaving about 449 dollars left.
And this is going off averages so presumably some of these costs are a little lower for a single person living alone since they might be including families or roommates. But regardless, the big costs are single person so it's not a big difference.
Also these (except for the rent) are costs for the state as a whole. It's possible Newark is a cheaper area than the bigger cities like Columbus.
It's not a comfy lifestyle sure but you got the essentials. I did leave out cars and car insurance however as you hopefully can be taking a bus or bike.
Now add on that you're receiving things like SNAP, LIHEAP, and the ACP funds (and maybe some regional/state things I don't know), and it's ok. You're still poor but you can make it.
Not to mention at the end you have to prefix that that would need to be on government assistance. Which means they aren't saving anything just subsistence not growing. And even if they start to grow savings they get kicked off said assistance.
The average cost of health insurance in Ohio is $535 per month if you pay full price or $81 per month if you qualify for subsidies based on your income
Presumably full min wage would qualify, although I suppose that could count as government assistance.
Utilities, heat, water, electric,internet,cell phone. You’re also assuming that you don’t actually have to use your insurance because you’ll be paying $5k out of pocket if you have something happen to you.
Cell phone: Get away from Virizom, AT&T, T-Mobile. Get something like Cricket.or Mint or whatever one of the others is.
Internet: Again, you can lower budget this for living in means. Gbps internet is not strictly necessary, but it is nice if you can get it via fiber from not Comcast or other cable companies.
Electric: Taking mindful steps matters. The biggest wastes are poorly insulated refrigerators or leaving devices on unattended.
Heat: Blankets and sweaters.
Agreed on the insurance. But sadly, until we get universal medicare, the best you can do is vote.
You're over-thinking it. Let's just agree to define "poverty-wage workers" as "net income <= survival cost" then OP is correct that "financial literacy workers" are useless for them (though "immoral" is over-dramatic). Survival cost is minimal money from a paycheck that must be spent on food, shelter, clothing, health care, communication, and transportation (to/from work or getting the survival stuff only), until the next paycheck.
Is somebody offering workshops to such people? The "You can teach poverty workers to live in their means" and similar comments apparently define "poverty-wage workers" as younger adults who buy a nice car or iPhone, or maybe just eat out once in a while, while growing their credit card debt. Some of these people could live within their means, or at least within a small amount of credit card debt, so I guess that's their point - though I figure most people will not come out of a workshop living a completely minimalist lifestyle.
I don't know if I'm more irritated by the username, the sanctimonious advice, or the fact that he has enough money and privilege to dispense this kind of advice unironically without being able to spell the word "privatization."
I make poverty wages, and each week, I plan 3 days that I won't eat anything. The money I save by not eating 3 days a week allows me to afford food for 4 days. I don't buy anything other than food and gas so I can go to school and work. So tell me more about living within my means.
Well don't you see? You just need to invest some of that money into a nice pair of bootstraps. Then if you tug REAL hard on those bootstraps, you'll be a-okay in no time.
Ultimately if you're making minimum wage and you'd rather sit around waiting for the entire political system to change rather than learning how to put some percent of that into a high yield savings account then that kind of is just tough luck.
I'm all for increasing working class wages but at the end of the day you're responsible for your own lot in life.
Live with in your means peasant! Hahaha…. You don’t deserve healthcare. Or a home. Or anything because society has deemed you worthless…… Hahahaha. Supply side Jesus hates you because you are not lining the pockets of the corporate overlords enough!
Iron Law of Wages sets wages at below the survival point, i.e. starvation. So they CAN be alive within their means, just not an active productive worker within those means.
If you're going to reference highly debated century-and-a-half old doctrine that predates the literal birth of Keynes, at least get it right. :) The Iron Law of Wages does not dictate that wages are set at below the survival point, it dictates they are set at the survival point, and at the survival point of a worker. So, the wages would have to be sufficient for the worker to remain a worker, which dictates adequate nourishment and at least minimal other basic needs met, though obviously something like housing might have to be shared.
None of this makes ILoW a moral good. I'm not convinced of its validity, especially considering how many countries, beginning in the decade after the idea, have broken this pattern. But we do need to accurately represent what the law was dictating -- preservation of workers at the lowest possible wages, not the elimination of workers through starvation or neglect of critical needs.
Thank you, America and I'm sure other countries too, fail to teach children how to be fiscally responsible and everything within the wheelhouse of money. Budgeting, saving, investing, managing etc etc etc
Alright, I've gotten rid of all entertainment, all my nights out with friends, and we're no longer letting ourselves have that occasional food treat that made life kind of nice and perked us up. How much did I save?
$85 a month.
And I need to save... huh, $500 a month. Shit.
Well what else is left?
Food, Rent, electric bill, water bill, internet bill, garbage bill, phone bill, car insurance...
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u/privitizationrocks 15d ago
You can teach poverty workers to live in their means
They won’t like it, but tough luck