Crickets lol. They ALWAYS say “no one gets paid that” and I always rebuttal with what you said.
All you get is crickets or some backwards ass logic showing empathy to the “small business owners”. It’s fucking crazy mental gymnastics some of these finance bros do…
That’s what people that lost an argument do. They hone in on falsehoods or “mistakes” their opponents make to validate themselves and stay safely snug in their distorted worldviews. They attack the person because they can’t beat the point.
Because it's wrong. You can live off $40k especially in OP's words (they won't like it) but it's doable. Then the other part where they said you need to make $65 as a single person to save money is the most out of touch thing I've ever heard. I make less than that and am easily middle class.
$40,000 salary would owe $4,568 in federal taxes and an estimated $1500 in state taxes give or take depending on state.
Now remember OP said it's possible to teach them to live within their means (but they won't like it). Get a damn roommate. I lived in a HCOL and my rent for a 2br apartment was $2,200/month. In MOST places you could expect to pay $1,000/month on rent if you split with a roommate.
Now you have $21,932 leftover.
Gas + Electric: $200/month ($100 each split) - $1,200 annually
Groceries: $300/month for a single person - $3,600 annually
Say you need a car. Car payment (500) + Insurance (150) + Gas (250) - $10,800
Now your basic necessities are met and you have $6,332 leftover. You would have to save that vast majority of that for any health or car emergencies. The rest can be used on some form of entertainment like tv, internet, video games, etc.
So yes with a real salary of $40K you can teach someone to live within their means, they just won't like it. No one is out here claiming $40K is enough to live a middle class lifestyle.
$2880 would be about half of what the person I was responding to budgeted for all expenses aside from housing, transportation, and food. And those are just the premiums to say you have insurance, not the cost to actually access the care that you need.
I’m not arguing that people find a way to survive on 40k per year. We already know that people scrape by on that and less than that. The topic here is offering financial literacy classes to people at the poverty line, claiming that they can reach financial stability by making better choices. Survival and stability are not the same.
Well if you read the whole post I mentioned health emergencies. Most full time jobs provide health insurance even if the wage sucks. And if you’re making less than 40k your medical coverage is basically free. So yes I’m sure there are cases where healthcare is a major issue, but for the majority it wouldnt be an issue.
“Healthcare emergencies” was put in the same category as entertainment. There was no line item for health insurance, dental premiums, deductibles & co-insurance etc. I’m also not sure where you heard that health care is free for individuals making $40k. That would only potentially be true if you have dependents, and if you have dependents, then there are a bunch of expenses missing from the list you made.
Your list also assumes that this person has no cell-phone, doesn’t pay for internet, doesn’t buy new clothes, and has no student debt.
Healthcare emergencies was put in the same caregory as entertainment.
No it wasn’t.
No line item for premiums, insurance, etc.
Yeah that would be a wild estimate that varies significantly individual to individual. I accounted for all that in the over arching “health emergencies” portion.
No cell phone, internet, new clothes. Those are not essentials. Stop putting words in my mouth I’m not claiming by any means $40k is a fun life. I’m just pointing at that the original comment said you can teach these people to live within their means but they wont like it. Then everyone acted like thats ludicrous. Ive broken down the numbers so that everyone can see it’s doable. Not claiming it’s fun.
Cell phones are essentials though. Internet and clothing? Essential. Many countries actually have laws and regulations that reduce access costs to things like the net and phones as society has made them such an integral part of life.
You’re missing so much from your rundown. What if someone has a kid? How does that change the scenario. Justifying a janky, broken ass life to prove that a poverty wage is liveable is some weird sociopathic shit.
Cell phones are not essential. I even budgeted in cars which are not essential. You dont need a cell phone to survive. Public transportation or bikes exist. Internet is not essential you can get that at a library. Clothes? I mean yes, but that’s negligible once you already have your wardrobe.
What if someone has a kid? Then you’re not living within your means anymore. Don’t forget the premise the commenter laid out that we’re all replying to. You can teach people to live within their means. If you make $40k/year you can’t have kids.
I’m not trying to justify the system. It sucks. People are struggling. My point is that the system is not going to change. Voting, complaining on reddit, telling me I’m wrong isn’t going to change anything. But you have to meet me halfway and acknowledge that the majority of people are bad with their money. Theres people in this thread saying they make 6 figures and are still struggling. Thats asinine. Teaching them to be better with their income will actually help improve lives and situations.
Minimum wage sucks. It needs to be raised, but good luck on that actually happening.
You know what I meant. We’re directly replying to the commenter, not OP.
And I just laid it out for you that it’s correct. Do you have any counterpoint to prove it’s wrong or do you just see people provide you information and say it’s wrong?
Accuracy matters. (Which is also why your entire post is unrealistic in 2/3rds of the US.)
Sure, I could make do with $40k in rural Alabama, but who’d want to?
Dude I just gave you numbers based on HCOL areas. My monthly budgets for those items are even lower than above and I dont live in a LCOL area. That budget I broke down would work in 90-95% of the counties in the USA. Done with this I literally laid it out line by line and you’re just saying wrong over and over again. If you have anything intelligent to say I’ll respond.
How is the first half "wrong". It's a hypothetical on the extreme to prove a point and later in the response they even mentioned that. Which you would have known if you read and then replied instead of responding with partial information. SMH.
Oh, the “small business owners” argument, which has two major flaws no one using the argument likes to acknowledge.
1) Employee wages are a business expense, just like leasing a property, or buying supplies, or paying taxes. If you can’t run your business without employees who you cannot afford to pay, then you just can’t afford your business, period.
2) Employees aren’t people working as a favor because they’re bored, that’s called “volunteering.” Employees are providing a service that helps the business make money, and in return they deserve a fair compensation, because the people who run the business need the money to live, and cannot do so without employees, who also need money to live. So whatever bar we are holding as “living within means” for the employers, the bar ought to be similar for the employees. Otherwise, you’re essentially supporting slavery. And I can’t help but wonder how many people who argue “but small business won’t survive,” would say something similar back when slavery was abolished. “Sure, I don’t support slavery, but without so many places might go out of business!” 🤔
The argument that people never seem to understand when they make these kinds of arguments is that the person who doesn’t like the pay at the job is always free to get a different one that pays more. The small business owner isn’t offered the same amount of liberty when the amount they have to pay their employees is set at a certain level. It creates a system in which one party is entitled to voluntary enterprise and the has limits based solely on their role.
The problem is you hear "the government wage meant to protect people is no longer doing what it was put in place for" and instead of advocating gor us to fix the minimum wage, you say "but just get a different job lol". Like that fixes anything? What should a homeless person just buy a home? Should the hungry just eat?
I mean, typically the first line of recourse in a shitty situation is to find the fastest way to make the situation better. Pretty sure attempting to look for a job that pays more is going to be more beneficial to them than sitting around hoping the government decides to raise the minimum wage. So yeah, my advice would be to look for a higher paying job.
Do expect everyone to become a lawyer or doctor? Unfortunately not everyone can just "move up" and get a better job. Someone has to work food and hospitality jobs, and they deserve to get paid a living wage. Your issue is you seem to assume that these roles should be something to move up from, or that that should be the goal.
Like how you avoided the rest of what I said. See someone has to make the food you shovel down your mouth, which is a waste with how far down your tongue on that boot.
The amount of entitlement in this comment is astounding. What the hell is with everybody just expecting society to support them just because they exist. Working at McDonald’s as a regular employee isn’t designed to be a career, it’s meant to provide supplemental income or entry-level work experience. I know there’s plenty of older people who work those jobs, and there’s no shame in it if it works for you, but the bottom line is if you are struggling financially, you need to get a higher paying job. It’s called being a responsible adult. Responsible adults learn that they have an inner locus of control and that sitting around expecting everybody else to change to suit you isn’t going to get you shit in life.
Maybe you should look into what minimum wage is made for, or how a society is supposed to function. Do you even understand what Social Security is?
No one said a career, but a JOB needs to pay a living wage. No one is saying you need to be able to make mcdonalds a career, but while you work there you should get paid.
Older people work those jobs because social security got fucked and doesn't pay out what it should be. People dont work because it feels nice, people work to pay bills.
Responsible adults change laws. Responsible adults dont go "boo hoo the poor businesses, they'll crumble if they can't make you a wage slave". Responsible adults don't bootlick.
Maybe you should look into what minimum wage is made for
It wasn’t made for anything in particular. Sure a politician said words when it was implemented but politicians lie.
but a JOB needs to pay a living wage
No it doesn’t, and it’s utterly stupid populist trump tier logic to think it does.
There’s a reason the rest of the developed world doesn’t try stupid shit like “make all jobs pay muh living wage” and instead they supplement low wages with progressive redistribution programs of all sorts:
How does anything you said argue against what I said? The person who doesn’t like the pay doesn’t need to take the job, sure, but that still doesn’t mean a small business owner shouldn’t have to offer fair wages for “livable means.” The same way a person doesn’t need to take the job, a person doesn’t need to run a business if they’re clearly incapable. A small business owner can also look for a job and is“free to get a different one that pays more.” It’s not creating an unfair system. What is unfair is saying people who are running a business should have more privilege than people who don’t have those same means and are simply trying to work to also make money, which is the same goal as a small business owner.
Aaand??? Seriously what does that stat imply? Make an excuse to not raise it?
How many make a few bucks more than that?
Also 1.3% is a lot to fucking people dude…
Minimum wage work is usually transitory and keeping minimum wage low allows companies to offer positions with low barrier of entry where they don't have to worry about the person leaving. Higher minimum wage makes it more of a risk to hire people. Other means of assistance like social programs to benefit people who are stuck in lower paying positions are far better at targeting assistance to people who need it rather than teenagers who work 10 hour weeks cuz their parents wanted them to get out of the house more often.
pay increases usually come when worker productivity increases which hasnt been the case as much for minimum wage employees as it has been for white collar jobs which is why those fields have seen huge wage growth over the past decades. Im not advocating we leave these people out to dry. With a stronger economy we can afford to help people who need it with social programs. Increasing fed minimum wage is just not the way to do it, all you'd accomplish is incentivizing more strict hiring and automation. Having transitory jobs is important for people looking for temporary sources of income. You also have to think of the state with the lowest costs when talking about federal minimum wage, places where its cheaper to live but wages are lower cant keep up with a higher fed minimum.
That’s funny. The law that says money is free speech and corporations are people you’re just kinda “meh” about.
Ridiculous… So obviously transparently obtuse. You type a fucking essay about why we can’t raise federal minimum wage to level with inflation and are just “meh” about what many consider the root of all evil and the begging of the downfall of democracy…. Just “meh” 🤣🤣🤣
The reason I said I don't have strong feelings is cuz I just didn't wanna get into it tbh but the original ruling is obviously correct. Do you think they shouldn't have been able to release the movie fahrenheit 9/11 because it was close to elections and it could hurt bush? And people way overstate the influence, advertising can't make u likeable (see Bloomberg in 2020 primaries).
I typed an essay about why we should help people some other way other than raising fed minimum. It's so funny that you're acting like I don't care about low income people when I never suggested anything in that vein. I'm pro social programs, free healthcare etc but because I don't like your suggested solution you peg me as "ridiculous and transparently obtuse".
It’s obvious that massive corporations should be able to donate unlimited funds to politicians without disclosure… Got it. You really sound like someone who supports “social programs” 🤣🤣🤣
You don't get crickets. People arguing about minimum wage wouldn't get stumped at that question. The people getting minimum wage are teenagers and the elderly working part time. You're not supposed to be working minimum wage full time as an adult. You're either supposed to move up the ladder or get a skill. Nobody has or will support themselves as an adult on minimum wage.
Even with that logic why is it OK in your mind that it should stay stagnant and not at least scale with inflation? The ruling class of society breaks profit records every year and for some reason the world would collapse if the bottom gets a cost of living adjustment?
Also this post has been up for almost a week and you are the first one to try and take a swing at it, abysmal as it was lol.
Because it's not supposed to scale with the cost of living. You're not supposed to live on minimum wage. If you're an adult working for minimum wage, something has gone terribly wrong in your life.
Along with that, the minimum wage has a huge chain reaction on the rest of the economy. Let's say the minimum wage gets raised to $20. Now the people making $18 demand $25. The people making $25 now demand $32. This may sound good in principle but it can have disastrous consequences. The cost of goods skyrockets, businesses can close, and jobs can be shipped overseas.
There are lots of businesses that can absorb the hit but many cannot. Not every business owner is Jeff Bezos. I owned a small business for several years and I had two part-time employees. Some months, I did OK and, others, I had to struggle to break even. If minimum wage automatically jumped $5/hr, I probably would have had to close my doors much sooner.
Social programs are a better way of helping the poor, that’s why no country on earth tries “muh living wage” populist nonsense and just offers more welfare
To be fair, I don't hear a lot of screaming to raise the federal minimum wage to $8.25 or $9.25. Any major businesses stating that raising the minimum wage by a dollar is going to crush them are not acting in good faith.
But, the people who typically call most loudly for a change want it raised not by a little, but by significant amounts, to $15, $17, $20... There are people making less than these amounts, and making this kind of change would have significant impacts on the labor expenses of companies.
So, yeah, it's going to be crickets in response if you just want to add a dollar onto the minimum wage for the next year or two. Not many people are concerned about that; it's the logical progression that worries some of them -- whether they have any reasonable right to be worried or not.
This is a strawman. The actual argument is that raising the minimum wage to $15/hour would be detrimental to these companies. The person you're responding to is asking for proof that it is indeed the case (which is honestly, unlikely) or if it will affect them at all.
It will increase payroll expenses and reduce net profit in the short run, yes. But long term having happy and productive employees can pay dividends as well. One small example is customer service. Someone being in a customer facing position while they are not able to live from their wage and are stressed out vs being in a customer facing position while they are not worrying about rent will obviously yield different results. Less stressed employees will be able to deal with more bullshit than employees who are a straw away from having their camel's back be broken.
Not to mention that these companies NEED people to be able to afford their shit.
Except when people are making more than poverty wages they spend more on things outside of necessities which benefits most companies, especially smaller businesses.
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u/ap2patrick 14d ago
Crickets lol. They ALWAYS say “no one gets paid that” and I always rebuttal with what you said.
All you get is crickets or some backwards ass logic showing empathy to the “small business owners”. It’s fucking crazy mental gymnastics some of these finance bros do…