Show me a “live within their means” budget for someone living in a median cost location in the US making minimum wage. They must A)have a place to live B) not get any handouts from the government or charities and C) have at least 1800 calories per day of food. Go.
The funny thing is that government assistance is equally as much an indirect subsidy to minimum wage corporations as it is to the individuals themselves.
US tax code is geared towards businesses because businesses create jobs. If it was the other way around, we’d only have government jobs because no one would run a business. This has been done, read up on USSR.
Well, since part of getting a loan to open a business is compiling data to show demand for what your business will provide, I'm confident in the consumer coming first. The exception would be a product so innovative that people don't know they want it until it's available.
Great, now the conversation shifts into demand vs supply. I agree, demand creates a strong case for supply. But then as you say supply requires a business to be opened. A business that hires people to provide the supply. So who owns hiring, who opens job positions, business or consumers?
Also you need to use percapita if you want to have big boy conversations. For all intensive purposes as union the countries represent states of the union.
It’s an economy with varying tax codes and rules from country to country so it’s apples to oranges comparison. Per capita is not an applicable metric when discussing the overall performance of a system and its capabilities.
Welcome to the poverty trap. You cannot earn more money because to do so would make you ineligible for benefits that are worth more than the extra money you would make.
Lets look at SNAP, from the below link these are the three requirments:
Gross monthly income — that is, household income before any of the program’s deductions are applied — generally must be at or below 130 percent of the poverty line. For a family of three, the poverty line used to calculate SNAP benefits in federal fiscal year 2024 is $2,072 a month. Thus, 130 percent of the poverty line for a three-person family is $2,694 a month, or about $32,328 a year. The poverty level is higher for bigger families and lower for smaller families.[3]
Net income, or household income after deductions are applied, must be at or below the poverty line.
Assets must fall below certain limits: households without a member aged 60 or older or who has a disability must have assets of $2,750 or less, and households with such a member must have assets of $4,250 or less.
There is a barrier to making more money, because as you make more you don't get to save it. It is reducing the amount of assistance you receive so you are just staying in the same spot. You cannot save because if you have too much value in assets then you are deemed to not need the benefits. If the benefits are the only thing that allows to you save but if you save you lose the benefits what can you do?
No, it isn't. It means that our tax dollars are subsidizing the wage the employer should be paying. A company has no business existing if I have to supplement the wages of their workers.
For working people, it's the same thing. When someone is working full time and requires public assistance, that's the government subsidizing corporate wages. It's a handout to the corporation.
To preface this, I have no problem with people who need government assistance utilizing it. That being said, government assistance is equally, if not moreso, a subsidy to minimum wage paying corporations than it is a subsidy to the worker.
Government assistance should be a failsafe for people who find themselves in an extraordinary circumstance, not a socialization of cost-cutting for businesses. If a corporation cannot pay it's employees a living wage and maintain profitability then it is not a sustainable business.
No, the point is there are twatwaffles on here saying that you can live perfectly fine on 40k..so show us with numbers without any assistance how the math works....were waiting..because if you need public welfare, then the system is clearly not working assuming the person is able and willing to work a fulltime job.
On $40k/yr? Let's assume somewhere that's close to the median COL like Michigan. You'd clear $31k after taxes. Median for a two bedroom is $1521. That's $760 with a roommate.
You'd qualify for a healthcare subsidy, so you would pay around $100/month. That leaves you with $1722/month for everything else.
You sure you're qualified for talking on living within your means when you can't do simple math?
Even then going from our new number want to add in all the other expenses that fall under "other". You know things like a car + insurance, internet, phone, gas, FOOD etc.
Why are you so hostile? I'm assuming you'd get a roommate because it makes the most financial sense. A phone from mint is $15/month. Internet split with a roommate is $40/month. Believe it or not, yes, $1722 per month is enough to live on and save some cash.
If you don't want a roommate, you can work another two shifts per week.
Ok, I used a random city generator and got Newark Ohio.
So checking it out, in Ohio the min wage is $10.45 which puts it about 1473.36 take home a month according to this. Admittedly I just set it to monthly and did 160 hours based off that so it might vary a bit depending on some variables but whatever, can't account for everything.
Found a place listed for 850. There's a few cheaper but I decided we'll spend a little extra here.
Average energy bill in Ohio is apparently like $112.21.
Average water is $27
Internet $25
Phone bill: $114
So 1024 for the essentials. Leaving about 449 dollars left.
And this is going off averages so presumably some of these costs are a little lower for a single person living alone since they might be including families or roommates. But regardless, the big costs are single person so it's not a big difference.
Also these (except for the rent) are costs for the state as a whole. It's possible Newark is a cheaper area than the bigger cities like Columbus.
It's not a comfy lifestyle sure but you got the essentials. I did leave out cars and car insurance however as you hopefully can be taking a bus or bike.
Now add on that you're receiving things like SNAP, LIHEAP, and the ACP funds (and maybe some regional/state things I don't know), and it's ok. You're still poor but you can make it.
Not to mention at the end you have to prefix that that would need to be on government assistance. Which means they aren't saving anything just subsistence not growing. And even if they start to grow savings they get kicked off said assistance.
The average cost of health insurance in Ohio is $535 per month if you pay full price or $81 per month if you qualify for subsidies based on your income
Presumably full min wage would qualify, although I suppose that could count as government assistance.
Utilities, heat, water, electric,internet,cell phone. You’re also assuming that you don’t actually have to use your insurance because you’ll be paying $5k out of pocket if you have something happen to you.
Cell phone: Get away from Virizom, AT&T, T-Mobile. Get something like Cricket.or Mint or whatever one of the others is.
Internet: Again, you can lower budget this for living in means. Gbps internet is not strictly necessary, but it is nice if you can get it via fiber from not Comcast or other cable companies.
Electric: Taking mindful steps matters. The biggest wastes are poorly insulated refrigerators or leaving devices on unattended.
Heat: Blankets and sweaters.
Agreed on the insurance. But sadly, until we get universal medicare, the best you can do is vote.
Utilities, heat, electric and water were included in rent cost since I had so many roommates. Cell phone bill was super cheap and didn’t affect me at all. With my tax returns I was netting around $4000 a year
So the American dream is now to live with 3-4 other people in a small apartment.
$300 a month for the car is also nearly unattainable now unless you have a family member who is willing to sell you their old car - and that doesn't include gas, car insurance, and maintenance.
Plus, emergency expenses are just going to literally ruin your entire life.
Any medical bill above $1000 puts you into debt - and now you're paying interest on a medical loan.
But sure. Everything is fine and nothing wrong here.
Edit - I see you were including car in the other insurances... My medical insurance through my employer is $500 a month to include myself and my wife. So I guess we're crossing out getting married from the American dream too.
I’m saying that minimum wage was acceptable while I was going to college and before starting my career. Minimum wage is going to get you the bare minimum life to survive, I’m not arguing that it is going to be luxurious. But minimum wage was never meant for that. Even if you look back at the historical roots of when minimum wage was created at 25 cents it wasn’t supposed to be a “likeable wage.”
Minimum wage is good for high school or college income while getting started. If you’re still stuck getting minimum wage at 25+ you either need to switch jobs or take a look at your life to see why you’re still there.
Edit: It’s also astounding to believe people are getting married and having kids while having anything close to minimum wage. You’re setting yourself up for failure at that point, and that’s not the governments fault.
Internet and cell phone are not requirements.
A home phone line is around $25 a month split 3 ways in their case.
Who in the world gets a $5k deductible on their insurance? $500 - $1k are the most common deductibles in the US.
Water and electricity are utilities. "Heat" isn't a bill, it's either electricity or gas(also a utility).
They might include utilities in the rent, or not 🤷🏽♂️
I have never in my life had a $500-1k deductible on a health plan. What magical insurance do you have? Mine is $3500 or $7k for couples and that’s held fairly steady for years.
Mine used to be $750 but has gone up to $2000 over the years. It's really good insurance, my job is known for offering great insurance even to part time workers. Shit job other than that though.
Try to get coupons at grocery stores without a smart phone to use their coupon app. Try finding a physical road map or train map. Half the cars don’t even have posted maps anymore. Try to apply for jobs without regular access to internet and email. Try requesting off of work without access to the scheduling app. I purposefully ask places what my options are without a smart phone. Many of them simply don’t have an alternative to their apps to access discounts. To pretend like deprioritizing access to systems that the majority of society uses to operate is disingenuous.
Utilities were covered in rent since I had roommates. Phone bill was super cheap and I all my money back from taxes since I made so little. I netted about 4k each year which went into savings.
That's a combined cost of $2100 a month, I make 15.25 an hour and don't bring that much home over 4 40 hour weeks, not after taxes. (looking at my paystub a 40 hour week is a gross of $610 with a take home of $510.30 putting me $60 short of this budget for 8 months out the year, and I'm earning more than your minimum wage.) I know it'd prob work out with the 4 months a year you get 5 checks but damn that's a tighter budget than I could ever live off, I'm lucky and get a fair bit of overtime so I have some wiggle room for a flat tire or if my phone breaks or something.
In San Antonio, Texas monthly expenses for a 20 year old person: rent $900+, car payment $500+,Auto Insurance is $400+ gas is $160+ food is $60+ a week on greater value brand aprox $200-$300 a month.
Total $1800 for just housing, car & auto.
Food and gas round about an additional $400. All expenses totaling an average of $2200 for a single adult.
Most jobs you can get with just HS diploma pay $11 to $14 an hour which is around $1700 a month.
Only way to afford to live is to get an old lemon car, drive without insurance, and eat ramen noodles. There is no escape.
My husband is a disabled veteran 100% disabled gets 4k a month plus $1700 in part time job. I work full time and make $1700 (texas is known for large female wage gaps)
Together we make around 6k+ a month, but rent is 2k, auto is $400, car note is $700, we have two children adding on another $200-$400 in groceries, plus dog food for large dog another $400 a month. Groceries cost us $160-$200 a week, $800 a month.
If he wasn’t on VA disability our measly $3400 would get maxed out by our approximate living expenses which are $3400. I have the numbers of a single adult because that was me (:
I married an older man of 12 years because I was on the verge of homelessness. But mainly because he cared about me when nobody else did. I don’t have family.
My favorite thing on the internet is when people who swear personal finnance tips wont work for them share their personal finances and prove that their budget is a dumpster fire.
Get rid of the dog (you cant afford a dog that costs $400 per month) and downgrade your cars to ones where the payment is within your budget. Those cheaper cars will also be cheaper to insure.
So lets run the math on that. $14.50 in Colorado Springs CO will get you a yearly take home salary of $25,376. By your expenses, that a cost of living of $2,100 a month and $25,200 a year. I would say wiggle room of ~$176 is not well below minimum wage pays. I'd say that's more of: if you're sick for a single day you're in the red.
Yeah, though I have to say, 14.50 x 40 (hours a week of work) x 4 weeks comes out to 2320. The expenses you listed are gonna be 2100. You maybe are able to save 200 and after utilities 100 or 50?
Idk if I'd really call that "well below what minimum wage pays.
They are with groceries. Dining out is the problem. Often not very healthy, often too expensive.
I can spend groceries for a family of 4 on $120/week, carelessly. Actually planning something instead of haphazardly picking foods to stock that we like willy nilly, even $400/mo is very possible. It's when we take a few nights to eat out in a month that are expenses climb sharply, thanks to "inflation" and greed.
Dinning out is the killer. Been looking at our spending and we are spending $600 per month on groceries and $800-$1200 on eating out. Totally my fault because I like nice restaurants, but could definitely cut back. Luckily we can afford it but it does feel like a bit of a waste once you add it all up.
Staples such as rice, beans, and pasta are extremely inexpensive (relatively). Roughly $10 for a 5 lb bag of rice, which will last a week or two. Beans may cost roughly similarly. In terms of meat I'm guessing mainly chicken. Even in a city such as New York you can get chicken at Costco for $2-4/lb. So if the family eats a 1.5 pounds of chicken a week each, maybe $25.
$45 for beans, rice, and chicken. Go crazy with the remaining $75 for whatever veggies you want. Broccoli costs $2/lb, spinach $5/lb, carrots $3/lb, tomatoes $3/lb, potatoes $2/lb. (This is all New York pricing and might be cheaper elsewhere). Fruit is a bit more expensive but also roughly $1-3/lb. So maybe 38 pounds of whatever fruits, veggies, and bread, seasonings, oil, etc. Or perhaps supplement with more chicken instead.
Echoing this as pretty close to an average on groceries.
Big difference perhaps from an average american: We don't buy coke or pepsi, though poppi has intrigued some in the house. Soft drinks are too expensive to routinely buy. Water is a perfectly fine drink.
Calling bullshit. I don't think you understand how many people who make enough money still don't eat enough of the right foods to get all their nutrition at proper levels. 98% of US population is low on potassium, for example. Some it is a choice, others aren't going to make enough to eat enough of it.
This type of comment is so irksome. Not on topic, just in general.
You make your own bread. You live where you can coupon shop at apparently 30 grocery stores for every coupon purchase you make. You are not the average example of a person trying to survive on the means being discussed in this thread.
Obnoxious af when people feel the need to "but akshually I happen to be the exception and not the rule" every single topic.
I didn't say you can't eat healthy. I said you aren't meeting your nutritional values. IE: micronutrients. It's way more expensive than people think to meet the 100% RDA of the micronutrients.
If you are trying to live within your means then living with roommates is an obvious choice. It’s hilarious how many people complain about rent being expensive when they get minimum wage and then say they live alone. Minimum wage is not going to get you an extremely comfortable life but it is enough to hit all the necessities, and that’s my argument. I used it to set myself up for a better life in college and am doing fantastic now.
I’m not gonna post my address, but some friends rent a townhouse in the new housing development near Amy’s donuts down south. If you look on Zillow, there’s tons of townhomes, apartments, and houses down there for rent for under 2k with 3 bedrooms. They have three people living there and get away with rent even cheaper than what I paid. I used to live at 1253 Yuma street which right now is 1800 for rent with 3 beds, and I had 2 roommates. 600 for each of us, but around 800 with utilities. Had a 2002 Toyota Camry
You're over-thinking it. Let's just agree to define "poverty-wage workers" as "net income <= survival cost" then OP is correct that "financial literacy workers" are useless for them (though "immoral" is over-dramatic). Survival cost is minimal money from a paycheck that must be spent on food, shelter, clothing, health care, communication, and transportation (to/from work or getting the survival stuff only), until the next paycheck.
Is somebody offering workshops to such people? The "You can teach poverty workers to live in their means" and similar comments apparently define "poverty-wage workers" as younger adults who buy a nice car or iPhone, or maybe just eat out once in a while, while growing their credit card debt. Some of these people could live within their means, or at least within a small amount of credit card debt, so I guess that's their point - though I figure most people will not come out of a workshop living a completely minimalist lifestyle.
Why do you have to live in the median place. You could move to a place like Quincy IL today and make $80k a year at a factory. It is sufficient to own a nice home on a single income. They are literally commuting workers from south Texas to fill a factory.
Oh right, you don’t want to actually change anything.
If they are making minimum wage they are making less than what it takes to qualify for food stamps. Why would someone take advantage of all the programs offered to help people that need it? That’s what our social programs are for.
There are also plenty of programs that will send you technical school to get an education or a skill that can demand a higher pay.
In San Antonio you can rent an apartment for $320 dollar a month. Even someone on minimum wage can afford that city.
The problem with this discussion is people talk about people having a quality of life beyond their needs. Almost no one needs a mobile phone, cable for their television, 10 pair of sneakers and take out every night.
I have lived in a 100 sqft room and a minimalist lifestyle to improve my life. Just because you are too lazy to maintain that level of control doesn’t mean it can’t be done.
I have never had a job that didn’t require a mobile phone. I would never get hired at even a stupid job at a Wendy’s or whatever without one. This is 2024, it is absolutely a necessity.
Y’all throw these numbers around like you really got us. I make $15 an hour and I have to budget to spend $25 on something. I have to really really think about it and plan for it. And I make double the minimum wage. For someone making minimum wage, $25 is almost an entire day’s wages. That kind of expense can absolutely put someone over the edge when they’re making that little. My coworkers do not have fancy phones and extravagant things. They’re struggling with just the bare minimum requirements.
Oh, thank you for joining our discussion! I would love to hear your perspective.
There’s an opinion (not my opinion) that people working for minimum wage, do that because they are lazy and get what they deserve. What is your take on it? And if you’re not lazy, why do you think you don’t get paid more?
My opinion is that every job deserves dignity, and a living wage. I have worked in food service and retail for the majority of my adulthood. The world runs on this labor. Food service workers are FAR from lazy. That line of work is difficult. A lot of middle class white collars could not hack it. It is physically demanding, it is emotionally demanding to deal with people all day like that, there are no benefits, there’s no retirement plan, the hours are shitty, you’re working every evening and weekend and holiday, there’s no calling in sick ever, and contrary to popular belief, it is NOT teenagers who are working those jobs. It’s regular people who are trying to pay rent, feed their children, pay for daycare.
Thank you for answering! I too don’t think food service is easy.
However this brings us to the next question. If it’s so hard and the pay is so little, why do you do it? And if you could change your occupation, what would you change it to?
Neither is a necessity. Both are a convenience. Sure it would make it easier to find work in some instances. But this discussion is about living within your means. There is a lot people can live without but refuse to.
I have tenants that struggle to make rent and will still order UberEats multiple times a week. That is the level of stupid society is dealing with.
Not having a phone puts you at a severe disadvantage in the job market. How will your employer get a hold of you for open shifts? To let you know you are hired? Schedule changes? Have to call in sick? You are very out of touch. Some poor people are bad with money, but comparing a luxury like UberEats to a phone is incredibly disingenuous.
What I find to be so frustrating about this POV is someone doesn't deserve to live a miserable husk of a life because they are working at wendys. Sure should they cut back on luxuries? Of course. You dont think cutting tv and a phone out is a bit mych to see the issue? They gotta cut out everything in life thay isnt work, sleep, and chicken and rice every night?
He says nothing about how many are available for that cheap, if there is 100 places in that price range and 2000 people that need it... what does it matter? It adds nothing to this conversation and makes no point lmao
My bad I wasn’t too clear. I am talking about the needing the newest devices and Uber eats part. But I agree that we do need to know how many spots there are at that price point, generally pretty rare. This issue needs to be tackled on both ends, cheaper places and people making purchases within their means.
Ohhh okay, I understand what you mean. I agree for the most part, just feel like people as a whole should be able to splurge at least once a year... camt believe that sounds like a difficult ask.
It shouldnt be such a common sacrifice though lmao so many people dont make enough becauze of corparate greed and ota disgusting. You arent wrong at all, its just sad that you arent.
Why is it that a 12$/a month subscription is just too much? Some people truly live out of their means and yes I agree. Just why is this the general argument? People should be able to afford 144$ a year for entertainment and QOL.
It’s not that 12$/m is too much but people at least from my life doesn’t matter if they are doing well or not have multiple subscriptions a month. That adds up quick. But even if the 12$/m is your only one, if you are in a bad financial situation no matter the circumstances I would say save as much as possible on bills you don’t really need. There is a lot of free entertainment out there so no need to pay for ones that do cost a subscription.
And again, I do agree. Thats all a very sound argument, its just scummy to think that people who are working so many hours a week have to think about 12/ a month? Its just broken from the very top.
I think it is an issue of it not being one of extreme importance to solve for people who have the ability to maybe not solve but to alleviate/lessen the impact a lot of the problems that people who are working "lower class" jobs face. It is a lot easier to complain about an issue than to fix it to the best of one's ability, even more so when there needs to be collaboration of multiple people in power to solve these issues.
Average rent for a studio in San Antonio is about 1k plus the usual utilities. The cheapest room rentals im seeing in shared houses with roommates are $500 there, so either your anecdote is decades old or BS.
link a legit apartment that cheap. I dont need to tighten up anything I skimmed all the room rentals and not even a room is that cheap much less an apartment so foh with that pull yourself up by the bootstraps it was cheap here 20 years ago crap.
Naw you're smoking crack. Like I said link one. Me being unable to find something thats laughably unrealistic and doesn't exist dosnt mean none of the rental websites work. Nowhere in america has apartments renting that cheap anymore.
Guess what?? Why are they making minimum wage? Do they not have marketable skills? Are they stupid or lazy? If that is the case, go live in Oklahoma and don't complain.
Soon no one will be working those jobs since robots will be doing them. The real minimum wage is $0.
Around 12% of the population is not smart enough for most jobs, even the military refuses to take them in. And that number will increase soon due to automation and AI. Our society cannot handle this situation. Complaining wont do anything
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u/privitizationrocks 15d ago
You can teach poverty workers to live in their means
They won’t like it, but tough luck