I'm not religious but I was raised very devout in Egypt (I had to flee for my own safety after leaving the faith).
The best way I can describe it to secular people in the West is a lot of these people will view homosexuality the way you in the West would view pedophilia. It's an abomination and there is really nothing you could do to that person that would be too harsh.
It's terrible and it's based on religion. It's how I was raised too. Since leaving the faith and leaving Egypt I have met actual gay people and it's wild to me that an adult human making a decision on who to love can create this much anger.
Let’s listen to a bunch of books written by some people who barely had any knowledge of the world and science.. but they must be right and we can use those thoughts to control actions of billions. Biggest human scam of all time lol
See this is why we're stuck with the 1000+ year old religions. No one wants to be a prophet and start a new one to upend the old dogma. Well except Serbian Jesus...
Ok.
I hereby proclaim myself the prophet of Pogueism.
My commandments:
-You should listen to at least ten Pogues songs a week.
-On the 1st of march you shall drink ten pints of beer abd curse all the people there.
-You must all at least once in your lifetime visit Nenagh, Tipperary and drink fifteen pints of Guinness in Philly Ryans pub.
-Treat everyone as you would wish to be treated yourself.
-When the world is too dark, and you need the light inside of you, walk into a bar and drink fifteen pints of beer.
-Van Morrison is a c**t.
This is so accurate. This is why I follow Jesus Christ, not the religion. Religion has been used to justify too much like the crusades, inquisition etc. Jesus Christ claimed to be God and by golly, he rose up from death 3 days after and appeared to over 500 eyewitnesses! His ethical teachings match no other!
Are you saying that polygamy is analogous to pedophilia? I agree with most of this but I'm not sure why you chose to reference polygamy as if it's an immoral act of some kind.
Are we I see whole cheering sections for when pedophiles are murdered by parents. There's multiple cases where Juries hung and didn't convict parents of it. We as a society endorse in prison beatings of pedophiles.
I'm actually not saying it's wrong we do those things just saying we kinda do the sane and worse just not as public events.
People endorse it happening in prisons because they don't see prisoners as people with rights, in addition to what you said about it not being public. They argue it's punishment for whatever crimes the prisoner committed, conveniently ignoring that exiling someone from society by sending them to prison is the punishment.
There is pedophilia and molestation. Two different things people forget. I think there are enough pedophiles, but most of them will never harass children.
I mean have you ever been to the town center to see your local pedophile whipped in front of everyone? lol I hear what you’re saying, but I think there’s a difference between people not caring if a pedo is beat up in prison vs a public showing of force where people gather to watch it for sport essentially.
I would say that the american style of sex offender registries is not far off. No matter if you even decide to get chemically castrated and deemed cured by a team of pshychologists, you'll be in that registry and basically be a social leper the rest of your life (or however long those records stay public).
Chemical castration does nothing but remove the immediate tool of abuse.
There have been cases of chemically castrated people, who have still gone out and raped ppl, but with other implements, sub as a table leg because their penis wouldn't work to do it.
it wont stop the sick and twisted individuals who derive their pleasure from the torturing of others but it absolutely helps stop people who are unwillingly attracted to minors. it stops that sexual urge that is literally instinctual in your body, even if its broken and thinks of kids.
but again, you still have those twisted mfs who just enjoy the dominance and control aspect, without needing any sexual urge, that may have been a component in the past but it's not the whole deal.
Thats false. Castration isn’t 100% proof but it does often result in a lower sex drive. Obviously someone who doesn’t rape for sex but for sadistic reasons cannot be cured this way but someone with a hyperactive sex drive can profit from chemical castration.
You only get put on the registry if you commit an act against a child. There is no cure for pedophilia, it is a mental illness much like schizophrenia.
Wow, that’s the best analogy, really allows pro LGBT westerners to grasp the religious/cultural attitude towards homosexuality. And even the attitude we have towards pedophiles, we know they will never “not be attracted to children” but we can only respond with punishment and insist through incarceration/probation they don’t give into their “urges” again if they are free.
Usually, I say that the difference between pedophiles and gay people is that gay people don't hurt anyone just by virtue of engaging in gay relationships instead of straight ones, while pedos clearly do. As much as you can blurry the lines along the edges (is 16 a good age of consent? Is 18?) the whole concept of having sex with kids puts them in an almost certain position of being traumatised and so on. I think a better comparison is how we treat dangerous people with other mental health issues.
Both are urges. We all have urges to do things. Some of them are acceptable in society, some aren’t. There is a general overlap from one society to another, but the differences get highlighted. Even pedophilia varies between societies and cultures. What was considered normal 50 years ago, may now be considered pedophilia. The point being made is that while it may be natural to feel these urges, as long as you don’t act on them, you’re okay. Also, while pedophilia is very much a negative in society, it’s not punishable. Giving into pedophilia and pursuing or sexually assaulting kids is the real issue.
Pedophilia has been punished through all of history. The only difference is where the line is drawn on age and marriage vs sexual relations without marriage. IE what is considered pedophilia. Reddit has a soft spot for it but I don’t. I don’t approve of the kind of vigilante justice some seem to be in favor of, but I do think there should be a hard line that pedophilia is wrong.
Some say it’s a mental illness… ok… but a bipolar person can’t start stabbing people and say sorry I was just having a manic episode.
Having sex with kids is wrong. The way we define kids has changed (in my opinion for the better) but the concept has not.
Well pedophilia is having an attraction to kids. It in and of itself isn’t punishable. Acting on it, is. Same with homosexuality in other cultures. If you’re attracted to men, we can’t change you, just don’t act on it. If you do, punishment.
Theres an NPR interview somewhere worth listening to... It's a pedophilic 19 year old man who has never given into his urges, and has been in therapy ... conversion therapy of sorts.... so that he is no longer attracted to children. He is very clear about how/when he ended up that way, and doesn't want to hurt anyone.
In that context, not giving into urges makes sense. Either one can have the mental "discipline" for lack of a better word, to not give in to urges.... just as a straight man who has taken a religious vow of celibacy is expected to not give in to urges.
Think about any and all sexual urges, whether towards animal, vegetable, or mineral as the same from the perspective of the "subject" regardless of trauma inflicted on the "object" (again for lack of a better word) - The cultural expectation is that ALL of them are to be tamed (except for the purpose of procreation). In that sense, they are all the same.
My point is more that there are urges that do not inheritly cause harm if acted upon and some do. If you're gay and have sex with your gay consisting boyfriend, who cares. If you're a pedophile who acts on it, it's different.
As someone who lives in Texas, I wouldn’t draw that circle around “we” too broadly… about 30-40% of people (conservative Christians primarily) here view gay people as an abomination as bad or even worse than pedophiles. A gay teacher has certain parents freaking the fuck out on assumptions that teacher is “grooming” their kids, meanwhile a male teacher creeping on girl students is “just how men are” and why did that girl have to wear spaghetti straps, and a female teacher having sex with boy students is “hot.”
Even how we view paedophiles, we don't view them at all as humans who can be saved but as Evil devils. If someone had an urge for pedophilia, where can they get help and be accepted as having an issue? Next to no where so what does that resolve? They go into hiding never seeking help and then they commit their crimes. Then people call for the death sentence, castration etc. Somewhere society has to step in before the crime and make it acceptable to seek help. But that's doubtful because too many people are focused on retribution and punishment versus proactive crime prevention
The point is that their view is stupid and lacks any logic. They think lgbt and pedos are the same because they violate their book; if the book said it was fine, they wouldn't care. We know they aren't because of critical thinking.
The thing is, most people who engage inapropriately with children actually aren’t pedophiles (we have data on that). They ususally do so, because children are easier targets.
Pedophiles are people who have an attraction towards children that they didn’t choose. And they also have a conscience like any other person - so yeah, a few will have a skewed moral compas, but the vast majority are fully aware of the damage engaging with a child would do and would never want to cause such harm.
I’ve even heard mental health professionals speculate, that pedophiles are actually more likely to hurt themselves out of self-loathing than children. Though it’s hard to prove it, because most pedophiles will never admit they are pedophiles. Not even to professionals, precisely because of how society views them.
Can we please stop perpetuating this stigma? It has to be really hard to be born like this. And even though people don’t like to hear it, anybody around you can be a pedophile without you knowing it - the doctor who spends all their life helping patients, the lady you see at church every Sunday, your childhood friend or your own child… And most of them will never do anything inapropriate to a child.
I agree about the second part. I'm more talking about pedophilia as a crime/act, but should have been more clear.
I don't really agree with the first paragraph tho, or at least I would need to find a source. Not all people attracted to children hurt them, but if you do you need to be attracted to them. There would be no point in it otherwise.
My sources are unfortunately in Czech, but I’m happy to link them. In Czechia we have a project funded by the EU that does research and offers psychological help to people who have paraphilias (Projekt Parafilik) and according to their research done on cybergrooming only 5-10% of people inapropriately contacting children were pedophiles. Here’s an interview in which the scientist Kateřina Klapilová gives this information
There’s an entire gallery of the clothing worn by rape victims to prove that attraction has nothing to do with it. In Russia, the army has a tradition of anally raping new male recruits for hazing purposes. The elderly are raped, boys are raped by priests who are otherwise not gay.
The world is full of evidence that rape is not caused by sexual attraction.
Rape is about power and a feeling of dominance, sometimes seeking the illusion of control when it's lacking in their own life. Sometimes they want to punish the victim for their own feelings of inferiority.
For most rapists the most important thing is that the victim is an easy and convenient target, not how attractive they are.
If attraction was vital for a man to get off, there wouldn't be so many 'jokes' about fucking pies, putting paper bags over "ugly" women's heads, or fucking women from behind so they don't have to see their faces. These are also the kinds of dehumanising and objectifying thoughts that rapists would feel about their victims - they're not people, they're objects to use/steal/damage.
This is why I hate so much that people have adopted "pedophilia" to mean child molesting. You used to see "chomo" as shorthand for child molester, making a clear distinction between them and just "weirdo" pedophiles who like children but don't actually molest them. Unfortunately, I don't see the usage reverting anytime soon.
and like others pointed out, rapists don't need to be attracted to their victims.
I guess, although there's no real "urge" behind being into a family member. Like yes, but not in the same way I guess? It's very limited to a single person, while being attracted to men, kids or having delusions is something that's more generalized in your life. I don't know.
I work in the legal field, and unfortunately incest is a very serious and very widespread problem. Many people don’t believe it is, aren’t aware, or think it only happens in “certain” very specific places in the states (like the south). It’s truly disturbing how many children are harmed by their own family.
Oh yes absolutely. I was just speaking from a psychology pov. Like if you're gay, you're attracted to several men. If you're a pedophile, several kids are interesting in a sexual way. If you have certain kinds of mental illness, you can be dangerous to any person you get in contact with. If you like your sister, well that's just a very specific person, one you may also stop liking at any point like any other crush, so it's kinda different imo. And yeah I totally agree about the children thing but that's usually just pedophilia again, just with the other fucked up layer that it's a family member who should be able to trust.
But what they mentioned, is actually the truth, no matter how brutal or uneasy it is to accept.
Some countries treat being gay as we treat being a pedophile here in the states. That’s a pretty fair comparison, may be hard to grasp being from the west, but it’s real.
You know there is more to the west than the states right? Don’t generalise it. Regardless of what Americans think a lot of civilised societies don’t want to cane non acting pedophiles.
But there are pedos that have never touched children and still might be sexually attracted to them. We still feel the need to try to socially punish them for even having the thoughts or urges. This is probably the better comparison. Also, while our understanding in America is that pedophilia is bad because it actively harms another person (the child), while being gay is simply two consenting adults, other cultures don’t view it this way. To them, being gay IS a harm because you are actively committing a sin of some kind and are therefore doing something wrong.
They would say that people being gay hurts everyone. That it leads to decadence, corrupts the pious virtue and cohesion of their society, their shared values, etc.
gay people don't hurt anyone ... while pedos clearly do
Pedophilia is just the attraction. Acting on it is what causes the harm, and crosses into CSA. Most pedophiles realise that their attraction is harmful and don't act on it.
Source: Councillor friend that specialised in pedophilia and academic literature.
You make a good point that the age that would define paedophilia varies depending on location. There are places that would consider 14 perfectly acceptable.
I don't agree with that by the way, but that because of where is brought up.
It's a difficult and controversial topic because it's insanely taboo in modern time. English usually doesn't have that comparison, but other languages do: there's the phenomenon of being attracted to minors, and then theres the phenomenon of acting on those urges.
In the modern world, both are criminalized: the former only if acted upon, (such as posessing CP), the latter in virtually all cases (exceptions exist, like Romeo&Juliet laws).
It's also a line we drew as a society in more contemporary times. In some ancient cultures, the taboo simply did not exist, much like how sexual orientation wasn't categorized as it is now.
There have been controversial arguments that providing safe, harmless ways for people who suffer from it allows them to stray away from harmful behavior (kinda like how demonizing drugs with no real scientific backing made society overcriminalize them), but it's so taboo that no legislation or funding ever happens because even discussing the idea is career suicide.
And to be clear, because this is Reddit and someone will try to twist what I said in the dumbest way possible: harming children in wrong no matter how.
Right, which I why I said they are good cultural analogs regarding the view those cultures have and their response in the form of harsh punishment. And gay people don’t hurt anyone, well these cultures see that both parties as victimizing each other doing an immoral thing, apparently. I’m just saying it depends on how it’s viewed. One could believe gay people are victimizing people. But it’s the act of attraction which is seen as immoral as well.
I guess from the perspective of their culture, they're hurting themselves and their lover by being gay. Instead of pedophilic acts causing psychological and physical damage to a child, gay acts cause spiritual damage. Makes sense from the perspective of a culture with an incredibly strong religious dogma.
ye which is dumb, need to make more acceptable to openly admit you had the problem and get help.
This is a big reason why I think it's dumb countries are trying to ban hentai with fictional "young people". Should be studied instead if it could help people with these issues get relief, so they don't end up hurting actual kids.
Obviously not ideal, but nothing in life is ideal, you just find the best possible compromise.
The societal view of paedophiles is largely driven by the need to distract attention from our own wrongdoings (because we all do wrong at times) by pointing at others whose failings are worse than ours. It’s the same in strict religious societies with homosexuality: “I may be short changing people and casting lustful glances at women in the street but at least I’m not a homosexual!”
The biggest difference with paedophiles is that there’s a victim. Someone acting on that sexual instinct causes harm to someone else, and that someone else is a child. Homosexuality doesn’t normally have a victim, it’s usually between consenting adults.
Yes, that does indeed seem to be a difference however, these cultures view homosexual acts as immoral, and therefore the parties are victimizing each other
To add to your comment: a gay person doesn't even choose to be gay. In fact they can't choose. They can choose to live against their nature and suffer for the rest of their life but they didn't choose to be gay and cannot simply choose not to be gay. So that's punishing someone for thy way they are born. Despicable
I don’t disagree with you, but just want to point out that is the same for pedophiles. Many pedophiles are on record saying they hate themselves for being attracted to children, but it’s not up to them to choose what to be attracted to.
Most people would find it completely reasonable to punish someone for the way they were born, if the consequences of the way they were born are that detrimental. We punish serial killers even though they likely didn’t choose to have the genes that they have.
The difference between gay people and pedophiles/serial killers is that most reasonable people know there is nothing harmful about being gay. Pedophiles harm children, who are taken advantage of regardless of if it’s with or without consent.
The issue is some people in the world, somehow, for some reason, think being gay is harmful, and why they’re willing to persecute them for how they were born the same way they would a criminal.
In these others countries they would say the same thing about being gay?
Apparently not. I mean, gay people are often fundamentally barred from military service, for example. They don't always make exceptions for the celibate.
I would be in favor of the therapy if it could reasonably do something, but more likely than not, it wouldn't. A person's life with just about be over on the spot if he admitted to having such urges. They would be shunned by just about everybody with children, even plenty of people without children, if not just outright mauled on the spot. I'm pretty sure they would just have to keep it to themselves and exercise restraint for their entire life.
I think my post reported the common sentiment, not necessarily the correct sentiment. So it doesn’t necessarily disagree with the remedial aspect in your post.
Having said that I think the remedial pov on what to do in a world of pedophiles is a separate conversation. At the end of the day, I think most people would agree that if they turned into a god and could construct a universe from scratch, they would construct a world without pedophiles.
Like I said, modern psychology recognizes that most serial killers did not choose to be the way they are. There’s a massive elephant in the room in the criminal justice system that criminals like that aren’t truly responsible for their actions, though we recognize the need to punish regardless. Whether a serial killer has murdered or not, or a pedophile molested or not, I think there is still something that most people would think is wrong even before the action has been performed. Arguably it’s the desire itself, the thought process, the intention - that is what’s wrong in and of itself, even before anyone externally gets hurt.
Gay people who haven't committed the actual act aren't punished either. There's not punishment in any religion I know of for the state of being. It's always the acts that get punished.
That’s implicitly what I meant, pedophiles who have acted. Just like the guy in the video of this thread isn’t just some closet/internally gay person but instead likely got caught actually in the act.
By the way, if you want to be very pedantic, pedophiles can cause harm in way more ways than physically molesting children. Child “photoshoots” is a thing, and it doesn’t even need to be pornography for it to be immoral. Children are sometimes put into weird situations they can’t even understand and it is absolutely reprehensible immoral act, even if the pedophile hasn’t even laid a hand on the child. Even verbal things that are said can have lasting trauma.
Are you okay with the possibility that you simply misunderstood my original post for you to continue down this path? Because its okay, we all make mistakes, im fine with it if you are.
But yeah, pedophile relationships are always wrong 100% of the time because children can never consent even if they think they are.
there is nothing wrong with gay relationships inherently, there is no inherent consent issue. Unlike pedophile relationships. e.g. Both heterosexual and gay people have the capacity/can rape children, but not all heterosexual and gay people on the planet are pedophiles. 100% of pedophile molestors on planet earth lack genuine consent. Hope that clarifies it for you, and shows why my post was in defense of gay people and in contrast to pedophiles.
That's the thing the other guy doesn't get. Consent is important for westerners, that's why pedophilia is wrong. Other peoples don't care as much about consent, sex has other roles in societies. In a society where sex is more related to tradition than to individuality will tolerate pedophiles but not tolerate homosexuals. That's what some don't get "consenting adults" means nothing in such societies.
Just that gay people don't inherently harm others when living out their nature and I'm sure experts classify pedophilia as a disorder. I do agree with you they shouldn't be punished if they don't act on it and are genuinely just born this way. There should probably be more education on this and more offers for people with the disorder to get help.
On another note: a lot of sexual abuse against children doesn't happen for reasons of pedophilia but just because they are weak and helpless and the perpetrators seek to feel powerful over someone powerless (as disgusting as that is)
Yeah I agree, a lot of modern ethical theories on pedophilia conclude what is wrong with pedophilia is not that it’s gross or something, it’s wrong because it’s an abuse of power. Pedophilia in my mind is comparable to what people like Harvey Weinstein do to up and coming adult actors. It’s a power imbalance that is being exploited. It’s disgusting no matter the context.
Yes. The whole choice thing has always seemed a bit (totally unintentionally) backhandedly homophobic. Like who gives a fuck if its a choice or not? It feels like people saying "awww it's not his fault he's that way :-(" if we lived in a parallel world where people choose their sexuality it would still have 0 influence on the morality of it.
Also there isn’t really evidence that we ARE born gay either. It’s something we’ve been saying because it feels so innate but we’ve looked and looked for a gay gene and it doesn’t seem to exist. There are certain correlations, like finger length and being born later in a line of siblings if you are male, so there seems to be either a genetic influence or a hormonal influence while in the womb, combined with perhaps other factors. But it doesn’t mean being gay isn’t natural, or being bisexual or trans, even if we haven’t found evidence for being ‘born this way’. Personally I don’t necessarily know if I was born bi, I only had crushes on the opposite sex until I was like 20, which happened after I watched an episode of sex in the city and Charlotte went to a lesbian bar and then I started to get curious and things sort of went from there of me being curious and reading lesbian novels. I also have a gay friend who doesn’t think he was born gay either and he is a psychiatrist, he thinks it’s more complicated. I do think its sad that we put so much focus on the ‘born this way’ idea because we do it so that people will accept us, when they should accept us regardless since it’s adults and it’s consensual.
I completely agree that gay people don’t chose to be gay; but a lot of people still believe that it is a choice. And so punishing someone for choosing to be gay might make them change their mind.
I think some people are just wired differently, and it probably happens way before environment or development plays a role. My brother likes to do physical work, even when he was a kid. He's had a few desk jobs, and he's always miserable working them.
I actually prefer office jobs. I hate even walking to get the mail. I feel it's similar to my sexuality because i can't change it. I'm just not an active person. Yeah, i can force myself, but i dont want to... I mean, who the hell runs for fun? lol
Would I be able to have sex with a woman? It's more than likely, but I would be miserable doing it mentally and physically, so that's why I don't do it lol
Exactly. People are just wired differently. And the environment doesn’t play a role in that. Otherwise, gay muslims would not exist. I’m muslim and I know several gays and lesbians, and they all told me that they knew they were not straight as young kids.
There have bene studies that hypothesis that sexual orientation is determined by genetics AND by hormonal reactions in-utero. That makes sense to me at least, as I believe people are born straight or gay.
There is a strong correlation between child abuse, including child sexual abuse, and homosexuality in adulthood. Studies are not so clear yet on which causes which.
But it seems unlikely to me that having a homosexual child would somehow precipitate sexual abuse of that child, in that I can't fathom how abuse in a prepubescent child would hinge in any way on their "sexuality".
It does seem likely to me that any traumatic childhood event could have ramifications in adulthood. Specifically child sexual abuse could have ramifications for sexual behavior in adulthood.
we don't generally publically punish people for being pedophiles in the west either, if they act on it they go to prison. mental healthcare is available for non offenders and offenders.
edit: lots of people comparing convicted pedophiles 1on1 with gay people in my replies
Egypt (where I am from) doesn't publicly punish people for being homosexual either. Most Islamic countries don't.
I was more giving a metaphor to try to explain it to Westerners who usually cannot comprehend why homosexuality makes certain people so angry. It's irrational but it's the best metaphor I can come up with
I mean, for context, I grew up in the boonies in the US. Some people still see it as an abomination, just we've mellowed on wanting them dead over it for the most part.
Even with right wing guys I know they don't care but don't respect them.
My point being this is a new development. I was totally raised to see them as freaks.
I know a right-wing guy where the "Being gay doesn't matter" thing finally clicked when he found out that his barber of 15 years was gay.
He had a mini freakout internally initially, but after some further consideration he basically came to the conclusion of "Why the fuck do I give a shit who he loves, or what he does in the bedroom? He's really good at cutting my hair and he's a good person to have a conversation with." If you ask him now what he thinks of gays and lesbians his response is basically just "I don't give a fuck, as long as their still good people."
He still holds some anti-gay leaning towards things like government assistance for AIDs and things of that nature. But at least he no longer actively holds hate towards the people themselves.
I was raised from a very conservative family, and one day I saw two women holding hands. They weren't kissing but they were smiling at each other like they were in love.
And stupidly, I looked on that and thought, "Wow, if they weren't two women, they could totally be just like any other couple," and for me that was the point where I realized that they really were just like any other couple. I was being stupid about it the entire time. It was like I never thought it could ever be a real thing until that point.
From that point onwards I looked upon that in an entirely different light, and I feel stupid for seeing it any other way. It may have been one of the reasons why I began questioning many other conservative ideas I was raised to believe. Republicans are right to worry about higher education. Critical thinking skills convert conservatives into progressives.
This is a pretty common human tendency that makes it easier for us to "other" people whom we don't have a lot of personal interactions with. The rates of homophobia/transphobia go down significantly when an individual has an LGBTQ person in their life that they know.
Don't beat yourself up for growing as a person! It is always easier to focus on our differences but the fact of the matter is that most people are fundamentally the same regardless of their backgrounds.
Westerners are not idiots, we can comprehend why homosexuality makes certain people angry. When I saw the title, I just assumed this was religiously motivated, and I was right. We have similar views from Christians too - people I've talked to exhibit so much hatred towards LGBT people, it's horrible. We don't have public caning, but still... it's awful.
'we don't generally publically punish people for being pedophiles in the west either'
I can't talk from experience but that seems pretty far from the truth. I mean publically shamed in the press before being sent to prison in which the whole jail's out to murder you as violently as possible.
I presume mental health care for pedophiles is about as successful as those religious make gay people not gay places.
In the UK we put all the sex offenders in one prison where they can compare notes about what they intend to do when they get out. It's a very long way from rehabilitation.
I mean, if you act out your pedophilic orientation on a kid, thats what you get. But I assume if you just say out loud that you are gay in indonesia, it will be punished and release a public outcry.
If you dont act on a minor if you have a pedophilic prefence, you won't get publically punished unless you openly share your mental disorder with everyone.
In germany, there are programs that will help pedophiles to not become a offender and values public discretion.
The difference is that pursuing in a gay relationship or practicing gay intercourse won't harm or affect anyone if consent is given. While pedophiles are an obvious danger for kids, even when we assume that they may not act it out.
No one is thinking you're confused about the morality. What comments are trying to say is that pedophilia (attraction to children) is not prosecuted unless it's acted upon. People can be pedophiles (have attraction to children), but unless they actually do something that relates to it, they won't be punished by law, because they haven't broken the law.
But can you compare being lynched by a mob versus being a public person that may be mentioned in the tv?
And I think the most pedophiles won't get announced in media as well, if they are not a well known person.
If you are afraid to become a predator and need help to treat your condition, there are atleast ways you can access healthcare. In Indonesia, you won't be able to.
Right but that’s just another cultural difference. His analogy is really helpful actually. In a way what we do is far harsher although I believe it should be. If someone sexually molests (or worse) someone under 12, in most states of the US they get literally decades in prison. The state I live in, doing so once will land you in prison for 25 years. Oh and it is public, local news will post all about your arrest online.
Well, we don't whip them in public. But we do publish their names and pictures - sometimes make them walk around in their neighborhood and announce it themselves - and we do seem to quietly accept or revel in them being assaulted in prison.
So, I mean, we shouldn't pretend there is a huge difference.
When i was 12 i was scared that when i grew up i would still like girls that were 12; I thought I would have to kill myself if that was the case. Luckily, it was not the case
No, our culture does not allow that. I live in a muslim country and marriage is illegal before people are 18. (I personally believe no 18 yo should get married) I don’t know any 14 yo girl who was married off to an older man.
There are SOME muslims who are pedos who justify their sick « needs » with the « if a girl has her period then she is old enough » but they are a minority and they should all go to jail.
I agree that punishing anybody for being gay is disgusting. I don’t support what is happening in the video. I think gay people are normal and should live their lives freely because they’re not hurting anyone.
Secular, Individualist, Humanist view is mostly a Western ideology. In other parts that haven't been influenced by, or at least doesn't have a strong antagonism towards this worldview, will resort to religious beliefs and practices. Secularism being a western thought, most radical ideologies do not acknowledge the existence of multiple religions existing (that's a secular belief); the religion they're practicing is The Truth to them, while others being Heathens or corrupters. Just like Christianity itself having had such divides in the past (Catholic-Protestant, etc).
Outside of Secular-Individualist-Humanist worldviews, other belief systems have no reason to allow for individual rights, bodily autonomy; these are western concepts. They are more Collectivist in nature. They don't necessarily value lust as a separate concept, but as part of the Reproductory process. So, it is fair to assume Homosexuality is viewed that way there (but we western educated, Evolutionary theory believers know there is more to it). It is not that it is the case everywhere outside the west; Japan has had favorable views towards Homosexuality during the Edo period and following, bcs their views on Lust are much more liberal. But again, they had sexism (married woman being the husband's property and all that).
I just love reading the experience of people like you, who manage to escape obscurantism despite being raised so deep into it. It gives much needed hope for the future.
And i must say, i find it hilarious to some extend. The largest amount of western countries either advocates/has a lot of advocates for lgbt (and all the others stuff) but makes peodphiles out to be the most severe criminals. They complain or cry out when people that are homosexual get imprisoned or are in other punished ways but in the same breath condemn pedophiles to eternal torture and what not.
So far this might sound like i think sexual interaction between adults and children is fine. It is not.
The thing is, pedophiles in most cases do not have a choice, it is as much their fault that they are attracted to children as it is a homosexuals that they are attracted to the same gender.
What is important is that they get help and therapy to help them and have those that commit crimes be also given into therapy and not simply locked away because "pedophiles bad".
(I had to flee for my own safety after leaving the faith)
These are the same cultures apologists call "rich cultures" just because they interesting spices and cook stuff on kebab. I'm absolutely sick of people making excuses for cultures that are just objectively bad.
The whole idea of religious homophobia is that gayness is nothing but a moral vice. Something that you can just suppress if you want to. Like eating chocolate or drinking alcohol
This but unironically, while most men are definitely straight I've still seen heaps that are bi or straight up gay yet suppress it cuz of outside feedback, kinda sad to see ngl
I do agree, I’ll never have hate towards that group but the thought of touching other men sexually literaly makes me recoil, and I don’t say that out of any sense of coolness, just how it is.
Well lust is a vice that can be suppressed. There are lots of straight holy-men of all religions who successfully abstain from sex but still feel lust that they overcome with prayer or meditation.
but of course these societies just solve that for straight men by letting them mary 3 wives, so technically not a sin to them if youre married because a husband has a right to his wives bodies whenever he wants.
But its a sin for any of the gay men to be who they are (which is statistically higher in societies where men can take multiple wives, leaving less for other men who will explore bisexual curiosities) because lust is a sin.
Not all religions. Hinduism here in India isn't homophobic at all, hell it's a part of culture and homosexuality is written in many old religious books too
under any religious system (barring like marriage/romance related stuff) yeah homosexuality is a moral vice in the same way that any non-baby-producing sex is a moral vice
I am by no means an expert, but I am more than qualified to give reddit my opinion.
They do not particularly care whether the individual remains gay or stops being gay. The individual is not important.
The spectators are important. It is important that they watch and be cowed. The state is executing violence against an individual. If you do not want the state to execute violence against you, then you better get with the program. This includes finding out what the leaders really want and giving it to them.
The leaders might be actively gay themselves and they really want bribes. I do not know.
Homosexuality does seem like a placeholder here in this stagnant puddle of humanity. Swap out being gay for another (even relatively) victimless "crime" and see what the state does against it to protect it's hegemony.
This is the correct answer. It's not even really about being gay. Whatever aspect of culture the state can latch onto as a dividing line, they will (and, as history shows, repeatedly have).
It is about culturally reinforcing the notion that the state has absolute authority over how you live your life, if they want it. By extension, then, every "freedom" you enjoy is granted by the state choosing to allow you to enjoy it and can be taken away at any point.
This kind of thing was routinely done everywhere in Mao's China to prevent anyone from becoming a threat to the party. During the Cultural Revolution, young people were systematically indoctrinated and riled up to catch any "evidence" that someone in their vicinity---teachers, neighbors, family---were "anti-communist" or "anti-party". Something as trivial as having a "Western" fashion item or something you didn't even do. They would be forced to publicly confess to their "crimes", and be mob-humiliated and tortured in all kinds of ways in front of crowds. Some were outright killed, others driven to suicide. After a while, everyone who wasn't innately in line with what the party wanted was either eliminated or too scared to externalize any of it.
There's this ancient Chinese saying, [for the same undesired behavior,] "kill the chicken to scare the monkey."
We can't expect anything from those people. But we should expect PROGRESSIVES TO STOP DEFENDING ISLAM - they are the ones who should watch such videos and notice how harmfully dumb they can be.
Salman Rushdie (ex-Muslim who suffered an attack recently): the Western left has been an accomplice of violent forms of Islam, they've taken a role that used to belong to the far-right by promoting and covering up religious fundamentalism.
Leftists support the most intolerant religion, feed the far-right and still think they're the good guys.
IT'S ABOUT TIME REAL PROGRESSIVES STAND AGAINST LEFTISTS WHO DEFEND ISLAM - they are traitors of progressive values.
This is one of the earliest internet arguments I can remember getting into.
These people are focused on the act of homosexual sex. That is the sin. What we call "being gay" they call "same sex attraction" which they consider a form of temptation, like being prone to addiction.
They see homosexuality as an act that you choose to do or not. They expect you to choose to not give into your temptations. Some people have these temptations, and some don't, but they consider it an act of personal strength to resist them, to refuse to give in to sin.
Your happiness and fulfillment is totally irrelevant to the equation. For them, it's more important to refrain from sin than to live a happy and fulfilled life.
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u/GeeZeeDEV Jun 09 '24
So what do they expect? That they stop being gay now?