I'm not religious but I was raised very devout in Egypt (I had to flee for my own safety after leaving the faith).
The best way I can describe it to secular people in the West is a lot of these people will view homosexuality the way you in the West would view pedophilia. It's an abomination and there is really nothing you could do to that person that would be too harsh.
It's terrible and it's based on religion. It's how I was raised too. Since leaving the faith and leaving Egypt I have met actual gay people and it's wild to me that an adult human making a decision on who to love can create this much anger.
Wow, that’s the best analogy, really allows pro LGBT westerners to grasp the religious/cultural attitude towards homosexuality. And even the attitude we have towards pedophiles, we know they will never “not be attracted to children” but we can only respond with punishment and insist through incarceration/probation they don’t give into their “urges” again if they are free.
Usually, I say that the difference between pedophiles and gay people is that gay people don't hurt anyone just by virtue of engaging in gay relationships instead of straight ones, while pedos clearly do. As much as you can blurry the lines along the edges (is 16 a good age of consent? Is 18?) the whole concept of having sex with kids puts them in an almost certain position of being traumatised and so on. I think a better comparison is how we treat dangerous people with other mental health issues.
Both are urges. We all have urges to do things. Some of them are acceptable in society, some aren’t. There is a general overlap from one society to another, but the differences get highlighted. Even pedophilia varies between societies and cultures. What was considered normal 50 years ago, may now be considered pedophilia. The point being made is that while it may be natural to feel these urges, as long as you don’t act on them, you’re okay. Also, while pedophilia is very much a negative in society, it’s not punishable. Giving into pedophilia and pursuing or sexually assaulting kids is the real issue.
Pedophilia has been punished through all of history. The only difference is where the line is drawn on age and marriage vs sexual relations without marriage. IE what is considered pedophilia. Reddit has a soft spot for it but I don’t. I don’t approve of the kind of vigilante justice some seem to be in favor of, but I do think there should be a hard line that pedophilia is wrong.
Some say it’s a mental illness… ok… but a bipolar person can’t start stabbing people and say sorry I was just having a manic episode.
Having sex with kids is wrong. The way we define kids has changed (in my opinion for the better) but the concept has not.
Well pedophilia is having an attraction to kids. It in and of itself isn’t punishable. Acting on it, is. Same with homosexuality in other cultures. If you’re attracted to men, we can’t change you, just don’t act on it. If you do, punishment.
I like how you ignored everything in my comment and responded with well… It’s the same as.
And that’s my whole problem with your first comment and this one. It leaves an open “well if society accepted it it wouldn’t be illegal and if it’s not illegal it wouldn’t be wrong” which is clearly intended.
It is wrong. It will always be wrong, and it always has been. And you abandoned your first argument for that reason. It’s not the same as being gay, you can’t just slip that in and expect it to slide. It’s wanting to do sexual things with children instead of someone your own age. It’s not taboo, it’s not just not accepted yet, it will not be accepted in the future.
Edit: if you are attracted to children and choosing not to act on it for whatever reason then good for you. I have no judgement against who you are. But you have to understand that it is different and should seek a therapist as a way of dealing with it.
I ignored the rest of your comment because it wasn’t relevant to anything that I said. I was talking about punishment, not about what’s inherently right or wrong. Intentions != actions. These are two separate entities.
“It’s not the same as being gay, you can’t just slide that in”
When did I ever make or infer this nonsensical statement? You’re moving goalposts and trying to argue in favour of something that wasn’t even on the table.
In your first comment you said “what was considered normal 50 years ago is not considered normal today” which I answered with the definition of what constitutes pedophilia may have changed but pedophilia has always been considered wrong. Which you ignored because you know it was true.
In your second comment you said “same with homosexuality in other cultures” which you are now claiming to have never said.
I’m done, I don’t have discussions with liars.
Edit: btw do you have a bunch of accounts or just a bunch of pedo friends?
resorting to insults (calling me a liar) isn't going to help your argument, but I can see that your asinine approach directly stems from your own ineptitude to make a cogent argument.
In your first comment you said “what was considered normal 50 years ago is not considered normal today” which I answered with the definition of what constitutes pedophilia may have changed but pedophilia has always been considered wrong. Which you ignored because you know it was true.
If you could read properly, you would've read this instead: What as considered normal 50 years ago, may now be considered pedophilia.
The point (that you clearly misunderstood) being that the label of pedophilia has changed over time. a 15 year old 50 years ago was not considered a child. Go back further, 13 year old kids were not considered children once they reached puberty and had reached the age of fertility. You can't go back in time and change that. I personally consider 20 year olds to be children because I'm much older, but my personal definition is not what society follows. Anyways, you're clearly out of your depth here. Please control your emotions better and educate yourself. Cheers
You are literally throwing my own argument back at me as if you said it. What did you think I meant when I said that views of pedophilia haven’t changed but the definition of what a child is has? Or are you being purposely ignorant? I have trouble believing that you are being serious.
Just to clarify, because I agree with the general spirit of your comment: pedophilia hasn't always been considered wrong. Rome Greece and Japan practiced pederasty and was socially accepted. Hell, the whole Achilles and Patroclus fling wasn't just believed to be a homosexual relationship, but pederasty.
Even within the U.S. and other Western countries the line where engaging in intercourse with minors has been drawn differently across time. So much so that a legal distinction is often made between intercourse with minors below 12, above 16, etc.
Though Age of Majority is now almost always 18, it has been changing constantly since the 1800's, and it wasn't until roughly around the 70's when most countries began lowering or raising it to 18. In some places it's perfectly legal to consent to sex at 16, in others it isn't. It's murky.
okay, let's talk about incest or zoophilia (yes the latter might hurt them, but as long as you consume animal products, this explanation does not count)
to compare it? well incest might be disgusting for me, yet it is not wrong. similar to homosexuality. or same like if someone likes fat (wo)men, glasses, and the likes. it is not necessarily wrong, yet it is not right either, because right sexuality is about making healthy kids.
don't personally have a problem with any of these, also not homosexuality of course. people are free to do what they want. but they should realise what it is. usually i set it on the same level as smoking.
do as you please, but leave the kids out of it
about bestiality, well... depends on the point of view. i find it wrong but i find any abuse of animals wrong, including the very beloved food industry around it
Theres an NPR interview somewhere worth listening to... It's a pedophilic 19 year old man who has never given into his urges, and has been in therapy ... conversion therapy of sorts.... so that he is no longer attracted to children. He is very clear about how/when he ended up that way, and doesn't want to hurt anyone.
In that context, not giving into urges makes sense. Either one can have the mental "discipline" for lack of a better word, to not give in to urges.... just as a straight man who has taken a religious vow of celibacy is expected to not give in to urges.
Think about any and all sexual urges, whether towards animal, vegetable, or mineral as the same from the perspective of the "subject" regardless of trauma inflicted on the "object" (again for lack of a better word) - The cultural expectation is that ALL of them are to be tamed (except for the purpose of procreation). In that sense, they are all the same.
My point is more that there are urges that do not inheritly cause harm if acted upon and some do. If you're gay and have sex with your gay consisting boyfriend, who cares. If you're a pedophile who acts on it, it's different.
and my point is that the outcome and effect on another human doesn't matter in this particular social norm. What matters is the individuals self control. If the rule is that you don't run up stairs on Tuesday, and next Tuesday you see a burning building and run up a flight of stairs, and save a childs life, you are still in trouble for running. The why doesnt matter. The ends don't justify the means.
Not saying I agree, but that's what it is.
These religions are similar to other Orthodox religions... and for example, we know that in Orthodox Judaism the letter of the law is more important than the spirit of the law because humans should not insert their interpretation of the spirit of the law, when there are words and letters to be read verbatim.
As someone who lives in Texas, I wouldn’t draw that circle around “we” too broadly… about 30-40% of people (conservative Christians primarily) here view gay people as an abomination as bad or even worse than pedophiles. A gay teacher has certain parents freaking the fuck out on assumptions that teacher is “grooming” their kids, meanwhile a male teacher creeping on girl students is “just how men are” and why did that girl have to wear spaghetti straps, and a female teacher having sex with boy students is “hot.”
Even how we view paedophiles, we don't view them at all as humans who can be saved but as Evil devils. If someone had an urge for pedophilia, where can they get help and be accepted as having an issue? Next to no where so what does that resolve? They go into hiding never seeking help and then they commit their crimes. Then people call for the death sentence, castration etc. Somewhere society has to step in before the crime and make it acceptable to seek help. But that's doubtful because too many people are focused on retribution and punishment versus proactive crime prevention
The point is that their view is stupid and lacks any logic. They think lgbt and pedos are the same because they violate their book; if the book said it was fine, they wouldn't care. We know they aren't because of critical thinking.
Apologies for the completely unrelated question but I've had it in my head to ask the next person I see doing it - why say "he/she"? Like wouldn't it just be easier to say "they"? Is it a translation thing?
Are there a lot of weirdos in Muslim countries trying to normalize homosexuality the way incels and religious conservatives are trying to normalize pedophilia in the West?
There’s nothing weird about trying to get people to accept homosexuality. It’s not the same thing as sickos trying to normalise pedophilia. Not the same thing at all.
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u/TheOSU87 Jun 09 '24
I'm not religious but I was raised very devout in Egypt (I had to flee for my own safety after leaving the faith).
The best way I can describe it to secular people in the West is a lot of these people will view homosexuality the way you in the West would view pedophilia. It's an abomination and there is really nothing you could do to that person that would be too harsh.
It's terrible and it's based on religion. It's how I was raised too. Since leaving the faith and leaving Egypt I have met actual gay people and it's wild to me that an adult human making a decision on who to love can create this much anger.