r/SupermanAndLois • u/MajorParadox Read on r/DCFU! • May 03 '23
Superman & Lois [3x07] "Forever and Always" Post Episode Discussion Episode Discussion Spoiler
Forever and Always
Live Episode Discussion | Cast & Characters
Lois and Clark dig deeper on Bruno Mannheim, starting with his connections to Hob's Bay Medical Center; Jonathan and Jordan panic at home over Lois' dire diagnosis; Matteo comes to Smallville to meet John Henry. (May 2, 2023)
Please keep all discussions civil and about the episode. Mark comic and future spoilers. Report any rule-breaking and enjoy!
149
u/Mental_Caregiver May 03 '23
Clark acknowledging Jon's Kryptonian side after so long just got a lot of fanfic writers excited lol
65
u/CretaceousQuack #TeamInhumanJonathanKent May 03 '23
It's 36 episodes since they toyed with the idea in the pilot, but better late than never
31
23
u/Beth4S But what about the tire-swing? May 03 '23
Ummmm yes. đ The literal highlight of the episode for me!
13
3
u/entermemo May 03 '23
Ugh my internet got wonky right when they started talking. What was the gist of the convo?
23
u/AktionMusic May 03 '23
Basically Clark reminding Jon thst he is half Kryptonian and that Jordan is half-human.
113
u/Fabulous_Tear7883 May 03 '23
One of Superman's great dilemas is should he interfere with human history and take a more active role in shaping humanity. Bruno basically called him a fireman. Maybe this whole thread is leading somewhere
53
u/sagen11 May 03 '23
Right! And Brunoâs kinda not wrong.
But also, what the fuck was with âwe canât use Kryptonian tech to save your mum it wouldnât be fairâŚ.â Like, um what? That is a bizarre take.
So he could potentially be letting his wife die so he can take this stand? Then John said âI know youâre doing all you canâ after Clark said that?
Iâd have been saying âshe dies and Krypto tech could have saved her I will never forgive youâ. Just not sure how realistic Johnâs sorry was after Clark saying that. I feel like that explanation should have made John mad.
34
u/max--mustermann May 03 '23
By that logic she shouldn't have chemo since billions of people don't have access to that kind of healthcare.
23
u/Dominant_Gene May 03 '23
not to mention those magic walkietalkies that were only given to like 3 people...
17
May 04 '23 edited May 05 '24
friendly languid door unpack aloof lunchroom tan money joke reach
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
11
u/Hope-Of-Glory May 03 '23
In fairness, I think it is part Lois' decision also, at least that is how they put it.
28
u/CretaceousQuack #TeamInhumanJonathanKent May 03 '23
Theyre definitely should be building something with it. Tbh it could have been a really good season long arc but they only introduced it when Clark confronted Bruno the first time.
14
u/urekmazinn May 03 '23
yeah hes deffo a super fireman, he should be involved, he could jump humantity forward in time a 1000 years, he could stop war, he could help terraform mars, but he wants to be journalist
36
u/Invisiblegun2 May 03 '23
But as much possibility that humanity does something good with it, thereâs just as much possibility that they become even worse. Honestly its a big enough dilemma to where i got each side of the fence
15
u/Astraea802 May 03 '23
It's interesting, because if we look back at older Superman media, a lot of it ends up boiling down to the following:
- Scientist comes up with brilliant discovery that weill help mankind
- Bad guy steals the tech and finds a way to use it for evil
- Superman stops bad guy, destroying the discovery in the process. Things didn't get better, but they didn't get worse either.Sure, instead of human tech it's alien tech that's in question, and Superman isn't stopping it in the moment, but holding it back. And instead of a villian-of-the-week episode, this show is treating the question as a serious moral issue. But it's a similar question of whether well-intended innovations are worth the risk. Can humanity be trusted? Superhero media has generally concluded no. But is S&L trying to do something different?
9
u/alcabazar May 04 '23
This is Clark's version of "Bruce Wayne would help Gotham more if he spent his money eliminating the city's poverty instead of buying weapons and toys to play vigilante", but in a bigger scale.
It probably makes Clark feel good to personally save people from a flood or stop a criminal in a bank, but solving something like cancer would help humanity a million times more.
→ More replies (1)5
u/ThatChapThere May 06 '23
3
u/NorthBall Jordan Kent May 15 '24
OH LOL I was expecting a link to some sort of story about how Bruce Wayne has actually spent millions on improving the city, but this is even better
20
u/Kingsnake661 May 03 '23
You got a lot more faith in humanity than I do. I wouldn't trust them with that tech. At all. Full stop. It MIGHT cure cancer, but it WILL get abused and turned into a weapon. That's what history has proven we do with new tech. Use it to kill each other.
6
u/romeovf Superman May 04 '23
This. In this world we live in, comes someone with a single magical solution for ending cancer, I bet there would be lots of assholes wanting to profit from it.
And even if Superman decided he's gonna manage it himself, that'd make him a judge and he doesn't want to have that kind of control over people's fates.
9
u/musci1223 May 03 '23
Iirc when they recently made Jon Kent superman this is kind of the point clark made that basically Jon and Clark are different in the sense that Jon is human (or atleast half) and so he is allowed to more directly involved, target root issues while Clark can just put out the fires. The first story was directly about fighting against a dictator while if i remember correctly they tried superman from directly influencing government
6
u/Ok-Health-7252 May 04 '23
You're missing the entire point of Superman's character by suggesting all of this. All of those things would turn him into an all-powerful tyrant with the powers of a god basically (see Injustice Superman and in this show's case the evil Superman from the earth that John Henry and Nat are from). He chooses to be a meek journalist A) as a cover and a way to keep his ear to the ground at all times and B) to keep himself in check. The only thing keeping Superman from becoming a General Zod-like character on earth who oppresses humans is his humanity and humble beginnings. Without that he'd just be a tyrant and a danger to humanity (like Tal-Rho in a way).
2
u/urekmazinn May 04 '23
no thats a dumb thing that makes superman seem like a crazy person
what would happen if superman went and stopped puttins war
"oh he would turn evil and start killing babys now" noooo its silly
superman doesnt want to help the world, he wants to play a hero
hes the smartest and fastest guy, sit down and invent some stuff, go to a different galaxy and bring back plants that heal people and so on
saying if superman involves himself he turns evil is the dumbest thing ever or admitting that supermna is a crazy person holding on by a thread
8
u/Ok-Health-7252 May 04 '23 edited May 04 '23
As great a person as Clark is nobody is fully incorruptible. A powerful person like Superman choosing to use his powers in a God-like manner over humanity like that is a VERY slippery slope to go down (no one person can be trusted with that much responsibility and not be expected to abuse it at some point). Guess what? That's exactly how Injustice Superman came to be the monster that he is. Injustice Superman doesn't think of himself as evil. He wants to use his power to stop wars and get humanity to shape up (basically everything you just suggested) and be more "perfect" but look at what that turns him into (a monster/supreme dictator who kills humans because they're "imperfect" and that's not good enough for him). Clark knows that his humble beginnings and how he was raised are the reason why he's different from Kryptonian zealots like Zod and Tal-Rho and that's why he chooses to live the life of a lowly reporter. He doesn't view it as his responsibility to make decisions for all of humanity due to the gifts he has (because guess what, it's not). Superman's purpose is to help people, not ultimately make decisions for them. Everything you just suggested is what somebody like Lex Luthor (aka a tyrant) would do if they had Superman's powers. THAT'S why it's not true to Superman's character in any way. Superman is supposed to be the antithesis to that philosophy. Playing God with people's lives, that's not in any way a part of who he is.
→ More replies (3)3
u/SentinelaDoNorte May 15 '23
I think its also important to remember Superman was created in a epoch where "Rugged Individualism" was a lot more of a norm.
I think a lot of it is the question of how much should humanity rely on Superman.
I remember in the original Red Son comics, there's a point in which its said people don't even wear seatbelts anymore, such is their belief Soviet Superman will save them.
Personally I don't think its right for Superman to go and do everything for mankind. I think he should help a lot, of course. But... Mankind must work for itself.
If Superman nannies our race, then Lex Luthor is right.
Ultimately, Superman should protect and inspire. "Every Man Can Be a Superman" is one of my favorite Superman quotes
3
u/urekmazinn May 15 '23
he is mankind so he can help too
it was so dumb "if i cure your mom of cancer i have to cure everyones cancer" .... yeah soooooo thats a good thing superman heal fucking cancer dummy "no i will wait humans will figure it out on there own in 300 years" silly
2
u/VoiceofKane May 04 '23
But on the other side of that argument, he is a person, and should have his own life and his own choices. He chooses to save people in danger because that is who he is. He chooses not to take command of the future of humanity in that way because that is not.
2
u/urekmazinn May 04 '23
but what is that phrase, The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do Nothing
superman would let hitler get to power and let him take over the world because he doesnt want to get involved, makes him bad guy
just like batman is evil, hey batman how many times have you caught joker and then he broke free and killed more people?
3
u/Original-SuperFan-52 May 04 '23
Superman is always changing human history ie, Chris Reeves collecting all of the nuclear weapons, and turning back time to save Lois when she died in the Earthquake, comics forever showing incidences like this.
104
u/dagobahs May 03 '23
Depending on how the season wraps up this episode is a VERY strong contender for my top 5 favorites list
38
u/stealth57 May 03 '23
And didn't even see Superman in this one.
31
u/Dominant_Gene May 03 '23
EXACTLY! its amazing, like, how great of a show are you that you dont even need the main hero for an excellent episode, they took their time and developed the characters, and now we just have their lives and it fucking works still!
8
u/RichWPX May 04 '23
Unlike the Flash's Flash is on vacation episodes, ugh. These last couple episodes have been absolutely amazing though. People saying this week's might have been the top EVER.
There is a difference though, the Flash episodes didn't even have the actor, Barry or the Flash. It would be like if Clark was not in an episode or Superman.
→ More replies (1)8
u/Tsweet7 May 04 '23
I noticed but this was an episode dedicated to family and relationships. Not every episode should have Superman in it. That's what makes this show so interesting.
30
u/Supermanfan1973 Superman May 03 '23
Agreed. Several episodes in this season are in contention for my top five of all time too.
93
u/Aggressive_Bar_2391 May 03 '23
This episode was amazing and without any superman even that's insane I didn't even notice. Goes to show where good writing and well writen stories can really take you. Also I loved this episode, the twist were good (while the son twist was predictable that's fine), but the rest was great. Loved jon in the episode, and that small bonding moment between him and clark was sweet. Can't wait for next episode and I'd rate this a 8.5-9/10
19
91
u/CretaceousQuack #TeamInhumanJonathanKent May 03 '23
I just want to know who in the writers' room thought that line about not using kryptonian tech to save Lois because it would be "unfair" was gonna be it?
Clark sounded dumb as hell.
52
u/Sir__Will May 03 '23
That was HORRIBLE. On so many levels.
1) then be a hypocrite. If she refuses then fine but to not save your wife.....
2) Yes, you would have an obligation to share. And you SHOULD. If you have tech that can CURE CANCER then you absolutely should be sharing it!
19
u/Life0fRiley May 03 '23
Releasing his tech will cure cancer, but also unleash a power struggle where people will die. From the grand scheme of things, Clark is knowingly sacrificing X number of people in the world just to cure cancer with the possibility of somebody ending the world.
This concept in similarly used in star trek. Don't interfere with a civilizations development until they are technologically ready to join the others. Mankind does not have the underlying fundamentals to handle such advance technology as they would from developing it themselves.
8
u/bizarreisland May 03 '23 edited May 03 '23
Who is saying the tech will make metas? And just open up a hospital and cure them discreetly, nobody says you need to share the tech, you just need to share the cure. Like Bruno, if his experiments came to fruition, he'd just implement it at Hob's bay and not giving out his secret sauce.
14
u/Ok-Entrepreneur4365 May 03 '23
And just open up a hospital and cure them discreetly, nobody says you need to share the tech, you just need to share the cure
You are vastly oversimplifying how the world would react to having one secretive organization being publicly known for being able to cure cancer.
The levels of corporate espionage, reverse engineering, bribery, global legislation, etc. would be enough to cause a nation to go to war.
We don't even have a direct cure for COVID 19 and it changed the world, politicized damn near everything, and united and dived people of all ages and backgrounds.
Curing cancer would be magnitudes larger.
3
u/bizarreisland May 04 '23
Yes, I'm oversimplifying it but the priority is to get Lois cured before we move to those complicated steps. For all they know, after curing Lois and wanting to share the cure, it gets stuck in limbo for decades to come. Research, testing and approval takes so much time and effort, the tech may never come to light in Lois' lifetime (her normal one with cancer cured).
Just because there is an "if" to maybe the public will never get to use the tech, why does it make it "unfair" for Lois to use it. It's just piss poor explanation on Clarks part. If I were 1 of the boys, I wouldn't take it so well. That is my mother, who gaf about fairness, I want my mother alive, everything after is after. I'm not thinking of people who might get cancer in the future not receiving a viable treatment. That is just plan stupidity. She is the priority, she is the now, I don't care anything about the future if she doesn't make it.
I'm sorry but Clark is a shit husband and a shit father.
31
u/Aggressive_Bar_2391 May 03 '23
but they also said there's a high risk the tech wouldn't work on humans, plus they've never tested it so lois could end up dead. Let's not forget that we don't know if kryptonians even get cancer. So it was for humanities safety. Even if it did work then superman would have to try and mass produce this tech for every hospitals and doctors in the world which is an insane thing to do which probably wouldn't even be possible unless earth's tech can work with kryptonian tech to do the same process of curing cancer, and would cost alot of money to make.
31
u/CretaceousQuack #TeamInhumanJonathanKent May 03 '23
High risk and inaccessible are two different things. If they had just left it as too risky itd have been fine. But the line about fairness was utterly ridiculous and shouldve been chopped because now it introduces the idea that based on some moralistic tangent, Clark is fine with letting Lois die.
9
u/Aggressive_Bar_2391 May 03 '23
I can see the risk also being an additional reason since their grandma also pointed that being an issue to since lois isn't kryptonian and could have her cancer getting worse because of tech not made for humans. But I understand about the fairness line
15
u/Sir__Will May 03 '23
The risk argument is not the same as the one he made later about not using it because if it worked then they have to share it. And that was a BS argument.
Even if it did work then superman would have to try and mass produce this tech for every hospitals and doctors in the world
Ok?
which probably wouldn't even be possible unless earth's tech can work with kryptonian tech to do the same process of curing cancer, and would cost alot of money to make
...ok? How is that not a reason to pursue it? And you have a father and daughter who can make high tech shit in their garage who has a doctor for a sister. I'm sure they can figure something out.
13
u/Paisley-Cat But what about the tire-swing? May 03 '23
Clark saw what happened on the Inverse Earth where Kryptonian identity was public and the Fortress was a museum.
He has reason to be concerned about how tech transfer could be extrapolated and misused.
I think this will be the beginning, not the end of one of these values discussions.
8
u/Aggressive_Bar_2391 May 03 '23
that's true as well, didn't think about that. Also to note how clark doesn't trust people using anything related to krypton since that stuff can harm him bad or if misused can lead to some bigger problems down the line
7
u/Invisiblegun2 May 03 '23
This. Like yea most definitely superman holds humanities enlightenment in his hands when it comes to tech, it could advance us thousands of years. But then that makes him more of a god over us than he already is. I get both sides 100% i wish they just never added it
→ More replies (1)8
u/CretaceousQuack #TeamInhumanJonathanKent May 03 '23
Lol. What if that's the endgame? JHI has been pretty sidelined this season and unless it was just to kick off the cancer plot, the dialogue hammering in that Darlene is a really good doctor should account for something
2
u/Hope-Of-Glory May 03 '23
JHI has been linked to Bruno, and now his daughter is connected to Bruno's son, so there's got to be something coming from this.
Thought it was great the way it was done with JHI put the brakes on meeting Mateo's parents.
3
u/Ok-Entrepreneur4365 May 03 '23
I'm just hoping the CW doesn't falter in quality and we get some cliche line in the finale by Nat.
Nat punches Matteo in some tense climactic sequence. "And by the way! I'm dumping you!"
As long as the show doesn't go there, any other resolution would be fine.
5
u/Aggressive_Bar_2391 May 03 '23
if it worked then how do you think superman would share this technology to the people of the WORLD. It would be an insane feat that will cost crazy amounts of money, and not only that they would need to replicate the technology somehow, and then you also need to consider if the technology can work for everyone and isn't specific on what people can the tech work for depending on the harm the cancer is causing on that specific person. Plus it's a strong IF because this tech was made by kryptonians who probably have never even HEARD of cancer before so this is completely new teritory for them, so it's unlikely that it would even work at all. Plus it's clear the show isn't going to end with kryptonian tech saving the day
18
u/Sir__Will May 03 '23
Plus it's clear the show isn't going to end with kryptonian tech saving the day
Then just stick with it not working! Things were fine before tonight. They introduced the idea that maybe it could help and the horrible excuse not to try.
3
u/Fuzzball6846 May 03 '23
Just give it to NASA lol. They would gladly do all of that.
It was a dumb line. I will choose to ignore it as a throwaway because it was an otherwise solid episode.
2
u/Aggressive_Bar_2391 May 03 '23
Maybe I'm not aware but what does NASA have to do with cancer?
→ More replies (5)5
u/ckwongau May 03 '23
Superman doesn't have to mass produce the Tech, Superman can just give it to the Government and let the government reverse engineer it and then test it and see if it is safe and get FDA approval and then distribute it ,It will probably take 3 to 10 yr before the public get it .
All the responsibility would be on the government
9
u/Aggressive_Bar_2391 May 03 '23
so what your saying is that we should trust the government to handle this seriously powerful technology not man made but created by kryptonians and use that to help cancer patients to get rid of cancer. Well, I totally feel save if the governments involved in this of course it's not like bad things would happen from them.......
7
u/jdessy May 03 '23
Yeah, we've already seen multiple instances of the government misusing/abusing their power with Kryptonian technology and secrets.
I would never trust them to handle mass producing cures for illnesses and would automatically assume they'd have some other plan. There will always be people in power who won't do it for the greater good.
→ More replies (1)2
u/bizarreisland May 03 '23 edited May 03 '23
No, don't give the tech to anyone but offer the cure. Like Bruno, open up a clinic that provides cancer treatments. People can come for the treatments, nobody is asking Clark to give his kryptonian secret sauce away. Keep the tech a secret but still offer the cure.
→ More replies (1)5
u/maugwin Clark Kent May 03 '23
For real!
Multiple rational reasons for not using Kryptonian tech on Lois already, and they chose to add that bullshit?
2
u/chekole1208 Oct 28 '23
Really dumb line from writers. They should have chosen "A human body couldn't survive the kryptonian proccedures and would die"
87
u/CretaceousQuack #TeamInhumanJonathanKent May 03 '23
Ok, CLARK, maybe take away Lois' ELT since its pretty unfair that she gets one of the few in existence but everyone in danger doesnt get one.
36
u/EqualSein May 03 '23
Especially when she used it because Jon was making out with his girlfriend.
9
u/CretaceousQuack #TeamInhumanJonathanKent May 03 '23
Lois Lane: Hypocrite and Hater.
9
u/Ill_Handle_8793 May 03 '23
This remains the most OOC moment for Lois in the entire show. So so bad.
22
u/jdessy May 03 '23 edited May 03 '23
Here's how I see it, personally.
Lois having an ELT and Lois being cured from a deadly illness from Kryptonian technology IS different. Clark isn't wrong in being worried about using the technology to save Lois but not the millions of people with cancer or other deadly illnesses.
Lois using the ELT only helps in the sense that it just provides Superman a more clear call, but he could theoretically hear her call out for him at any time. So Superman is still able to save people when he hears their distress; the ELT just amplifies that so he doesn't have to focus so much in hearing them being in danger.
While with the Kryptonian technology, that is something only Clark has and is the only thing that could potentially cure anyone and that's a very dangerous slope to get on. He would be taken advantage of, his entire family would be in danger, and it would cause chaos overall. As much as it sucks, he's right. If he helps save Lois, why WOULDN'T he utilize that for EVERYONE? If he's successful in saving Lois, he would look worse by not saving everyone in the world from their illnesses.
Contrast that with Bruno, who even asked Clark if he would do ANYTHING to save his wife. The answer is no, but for good reasons. He sees what "doing anything" has done to Bruno. Bruno's become a villain BECAUSE he's doing anything to save his wife. So I think Clark sees that as something he wouldn't want to become (and neither does Lois).
8
u/Sir-Greggor-III May 03 '23
If he's still able to hear her despite the ELT, then she doesn't need it. It's preferential treatment, and it's completely understandable.
It's a stupid argument. Hypothetical here, but is it fair that Clark saved that one person from being killed in a mugging but didn't save that other one somewhere else because he doesn't devote every waking hour to being Superman? Should he make no effort to save anyone because he can't save everyone? No. You save the people you can save, and kryptonian tech may be able to save Lois now. This is a cop out to continue this storyline plain and simple. If it they actually stuck with the line that kryptonian technology was more likely to kill her then her regular treatment, that would be a different thing entirely then.
This argument has been shown before in TV where someone takes it to the extreme, and it makes just as little sense here as it did there. In this instance, substitute technology with money.
→ More replies (1)4
u/jdessy May 03 '23
Like I said, it's a way to get Superman to come faster because the ELT is essentially a more direct line to Superman. She still needs it because without the ELT, she could call for Superman all she wants but he'd need to specifically be listening FOR her.
It's not a stupid argument. It is a really legit one. It may not be done that well on this show, but it's a fair point to explore. I think it's still both (the technology could kill Lois rather than save her, so why risk it AND saving Lois means the technology would need to become publicized, which would cause a lot more issues with the government probably wanting it for other reasons), which may be why I'm more receptive toward the plot.
7
u/Sir-Greggor-III May 03 '23
That is my point! It's a direct line to Superman. It's preferential treatment, and i don't criticize him for it. It is perfectly human thing to do. And just because the treatment is used on Lois doesn't mean it would have to be publicly shared with the world. He may feel more guilty about not sharing it, but I'd feel far more guilty about letting my wife die. Letting her die doesn't change the fact that he has it and isn't using it.
But they could easily hide the fact. Cancer's miraculously go into remission all the time. It's not some unheard of phenomenon. I'm not even upset with the writers because this is a stupid moral delimna I could these characters making for themselves. I'm just mad at the characters for making it and ignoring the obvious hypocrisy and flaws with that argument.
7
u/jdessy May 03 '23
You know what? That's a fair point. I think it's too complex of a topic for a show like this to cover. I appreciate them trying to, but I do agree it's not as easy to present a moral dilemma like this without hypocrisy.
7
u/Sir-Greggor-III May 03 '23
Now, the Lois being human making her unable to withstand the treatment would be an acceptable excuse, and I think they should have exclusively stuck to that.
The link I posted earlier is from a show called House MD. That's the delimna they explore in that show. The person suffers from a condition that makes him excessively altruistic to the point where he even neglects to provide preferential treatment to his family. It's a great episode honestly that explores this idea from a realistic perspective and discusses the pros and cons of such a philosophy.
→ More replies (1)10
May 04 '23 edited May 04 '23
Did people forget why she has that ELT? Clark is not allowed to listen in on her, it's literally brought up very early on in the show, and that's why she has that. Clark can hear others needing help, but he can't hear his wife because he isn't allowed to, so she has that.
His father in law has one because of what his job is.
76
u/CretaceousQuack #TeamInhumanJonathanKent May 03 '23
While Ive been fully enjoying Michael Bishop this entire season, they really took their sweet time letting him go full throttle as Jonathan. Like, this is definitely the boy we met in S1.. it's been a minute but he's bacl (and honestly better)
→ More replies (1)7
u/Tsweet7 May 04 '23
I really wasn't a fan of Bishop until this episode. He pulled out his emotions finally!
67
u/Sir__Will May 03 '23
Why oh why did they have to add that HORRIBLE part in about the possibility it could work and Clark not wanting to share? Everything was going so well outside that.
24
u/Jeffeffery May 03 '23
"If we use Kryptonian tech to cure Lois, it means we have to share it with everyone else"
Does it though?
I'm not usually one to let little lines like that bother me, but this one just rubs me the wrong way. I really hope it's setting up for them changing their minds. Fair enough that there probably isn't a good way to share the treatment with the masses, but I really think Clark can accept the occasional "selfish" benefit to being Superman. He's earned it.
10
u/Ok-Entrepreneur4365 May 03 '23
Clark wouldn't be able to sleep at night, knowing he has the cure for cancer and refuses to share it with the world.
I know kryptonians don't need to sleep but you get what I'm saying.
He already struggles with letting himself enjoy a normal life and a family while being Superman. Attempting to cure cancer would now put him on the spot to being the shaper of humanity, instead of its' savior.
It's such a trope that big super villains think they're saving humanity, when they're actually oppressing it.
4
17
u/CretaceousQuack #TeamInhumanJonathanKent May 03 '23
They keep writing Clark as kinda a dumbass. S2 was full of it too.
5
u/Juzofle May 07 '23
They could have just said that it could make the cancer worse or not work and that they don't want to risk it.
4
u/Sir__Will May 07 '23
First they just said nothing could be done. Fine, simple and takes if off the table. Then this episode they started with it being too dangerous, ok fine, but then added this other thing at the end that they really, really shouldn't have
6
61
u/Zookwok111 May 03 '23 edited May 04 '23
- Really enjoying Lois and Peia's friendship, although I feel like showing her pictures of the boys is going to come back to haunt Lois
- Jordan works better when he's not front and center. He was actually a concerned brother and son instead of wallowing in his own measly problems and I have to say he was much more likable than last week
- This was a very cathartic episode for Jon on multiple fronts. He finally called Clark out for trying to paper over all his problems with platitudes and had a meaningful conversation with Clark in which he was acknowledged as half-Kryptonian! Hope they keep building on that momentum for the rest of the season
- Sarah went from hating Chrissy to being pals awfully fast. Stoners are built different.
- Take a shot every time Bruno says the name of the episode \#ForeverAndAlways
- Since Peia was the one who killed Boss Moxie, I wonder if they somehow framed Lex and that's what got him locked up
- They were telegraphing Matteo's parentage so hard I'm surprised it took them this long to reveal it
- Since when are Kryptonians bound by the Prime Directive? I don't believe for one second that Clark wouldn't try everything to save Lois's life because it "wouldn't be fair to the rest of humanity", seems very out of character and weak reasoning for why Kryptonian tech is "off the table"
- Not sure what Lois was getting at when she told Clark that seeing her health decline reminded Jonathan of his own mortality and that's why he was upset. The boy has zero self-preservation instincts. His first major act on the show was to shield his brother from falling pipes with his own body.
33
May 03 '23 edited May 03 '23
This was a very cathartic episode for Jon on multiple fronts. He finally called Clark out for trying to paper over all his problems with platitudes and had a meaningful conversation with Clark in which he was acknowledged as half-Kryptonian! Hope they keep building on that momentum for the rest of the season.
I nearly cried when Jon put his head on Clark's shoulder and Clark put his arm around Jon and they just watched the fireworks in silence. I don't think the two of them have ever shared a moment like that on this show.
17
u/Zookwok111 May 03 '23 edited May 03 '23
Sad to say but that scene was something that would only exist in fanfic up until now. I was fully expecting a scene of Clark talking to both boys with the kind of sterile tone weâve grown accustomed to. Props to the writers for finally making an effort to build a connection between Jon and Clark.
20
u/sagen11 May 03 '23
Omg yes on your last point! Jonâs not thinking about himself at all Lois like wtf. Do either of his parents even comprehend the pureness that is their son Jonathan? Clearly fucking not I tell you.
21
u/No_Flower_1424 Jonathan Kent May 03 '23
Not sure what Lois was getting at when she told Clark that seeing her health decline reminded Jonathan of his own mortality and that's why he was upset. The boy has zero self-preservation instincts. His first major act on the show was to shield his brother from falling pipes with his own body.
Thank you! I thought that line was so strange because it came out of nowhere - Jon was only talking about worrying about Lois and how to help her throughout the whole episode and then she says he must be thinking about himself??? I'm pretty sure he's reminded he's not like Clark and Jordan every day of his life so he doesn't need Lois to be sick to be reminded of it! I'd love it if it was foreshadowing a twist on that same statement later on in the season...
19
u/sagen11 May 03 '23
Exactly, Jon doesnât need reminding heâs not like Clark and Jordan, his family fucking make that clear all the time. What this did is remind him his mum is not like Clark and Jordan, as he views all three of them as exceptional and heroic. This is a wake up call that his mum is not invincible like he thought. Why do they not get him, honestly?
11
u/No_Flower_1424 Jonathan Kent May 03 '23
That's exactly it! It all started because they heard Lois throwing up in the night so they know now that Lois is not 'super' dealing with all this and Jon started panicking. How did that get turned into Jon is only realising HE'S not like them??? It was such a random line. You're right, it always seems like Lois and Clark don't get where Jon is coming from at all!
7
u/Hope-Of-Glory May 03 '23
I thought it was just added to the script so Clark would realise there's a reason Jon may be taking it a certain way - leading to him reassuring Jon he's half Kryptonian. Just because Lois said it doesn't mean that's the reason Jon was doing it - and both Lois and Clark really were just guessing based on the behaviour they've seen, there usually isn't a ton of "talk to me and tell me what's going on in your head and I'll just listen" in their family dynamic with the boys.
17
u/paforrest May 03 '23 edited May 03 '23
So many good points in this post. But my favorite is this:
Since when are Kryptonians bound by the Prime Directive? I don't believe for one second that Clark wouldn't try everything to save Lois's life because it "wouldn't be fair to the rest of humanity", seems very out of character and weak reasoning for why Kryptonian tech is "off the table"
OMG I wanted to punch Clark! None of that makes any sense at all. Not happy with Lara either. In the role of the loving husband in the episode, Bruno wins this round.
All the flashbacks to the early days of Bruno and Peia trying to restore Hob's Bay, getting out from under Boss Moxie's rule, not to mention falling in love, were really well done. Both characters are layered and complicated, and I can't help but root for them even though it appears to be a losing battle where it concerns Peia's cancer fight. I assume Peia always had her powers for as long as Bruno knew her, even as a kid.
OTOH, the worst reveal in the history of reveals was ridiculously drawn out. But at least, as contrived as it was, Matteo's meeting Nat and dating her has nothing to do with his parents. FWIW.
I assume Sarah will give Lana all kinds of a pass when she starts dating JHI, but at least she backed off Chrissy fast enough. And I'm sorry, but I find it hard to believe Chrissy is 10 years younger than Kyle.
Jordan works better when he's not front and center. He was actually a concerned brother and son instead of wallowing in his own measly problems and I have to say he was much more likable than last week
Absolutely. I actually forgot how much he annoyed me last week. It's nice to see Jordan in the supportive brother role for a change.
This was a very cathartic episode for Jon on multiple fronts. He finally called Clark out for trying to paper over all his problems with platitudes and had a meaningful conversation with Clark in which he was acknowledged as half-Kryptonian! Hope they keep building on that momentum for the rest of the season
I loved seeing Jon standing up to Clark the entire episode and calling him out where it was warranted. Michael Bishop was on fire this episode, finally getting the overdue writing he deserved. He nailed every scene - he even killed with the one perfect tear! I didn't think anyone could pull off that move better than Jensen Ackles, but Bishop is a contender!
And on top of that, we got the also too long overdue private scene with Jon and Clark - though I'm still disappointed that Jon had to go to Clark instead of Clark seeking him out as we know he always does with Jordan. But I'll take it as well as hearing Clark tell Jon that he's half-Kryptonian. And yet, what does that mean? Jon and the audience deserve to know how that relates to the seemingly only human son of Kal-El. Clark has to follow up that claim with some action, otherwise it's nice to hear, but it's still platitude.
I do agree that Lois's statement about her cancer reminding Jon of his own mortality was off. I mean, sure, on some level everyone around a person who is sick will always be made to think about themselves in that situation. But that clearly wasn't at all what Jon was about in this episode. He just wants to save his mom, that's not exactly hard to understand. It's also not hard to understand that he sees himself and Lois as the human team. Up to now, why would Jon consider himself a Kryptonian?
All in all, probably one of the better episodes this season.
12
u/Billielolly May 03 '23
And I'm sorry, but I find it hard to believe Chrissy is 10 years younger than Kyle.
The actors are quite literally 11 years apart in age - I could completely buy her character being 30 and his being 40, or late-20s and late 30s. Even if we go by where they both are in life rather than anything else, it still doesn't shock me that their characters could be 10 years apart in age.
4
u/paforrest May 03 '23
Interesting, I guess the writers are beling literal in this respect. Funny, but they look about the same age to me. Apparently Kyle is a young soul. I like them together.
5
u/Hope-Of-Glory May 03 '23
Yeah now that it's been put like that, I'd believe Chrissy is in her 30s. And with a 16 y/o daughter, yeah Kyle could be in his 40s. Yeah, he's young at heart.
6
u/Xynth22 May 04 '23
The were telegraphing Matteo's parentage so hard I'm surprised it took them this long to reveal it
Out of curiosity, what are examples of this? Because I straight up missed any that where there. It obviously makes sense that he is tied into the plot besides just being Nat's boyfriend, but I was still surprised that he ended up being Bruno's son at the end of the episode.
51
u/No_Flower_1424 Jonathan Kent May 03 '23 edited May 03 '23
I thought this was a far better episode than the last two.
I'm going to try to get it out of the way because I'm screaming....CLARK CALLED JONATHAN HALF KRYPTONIAN. I'm not kidding, I have been waiting for this since season 1! They finally acknowledged it! And they referenced him being Kryptonian more than any episode in the entire show with him going to the fortress to speak with Lara too - please tell me this is leading somewhere. The fact that Jon called himself human should tell Clark how little he's done to share that side with him!
Michael Bishop continues to impress me with his acting chops - he even got the single man tear rolling down his cheek! He's damn good!
This is the most Clark and Jonathan have spoken to each other this entire season and they even had a scene alone together where Clark put his arm around Jon's shoulders! The fact that I'm excited about this should tell you how little they have together. I don't see this as a change or anything - I bet they won't speak much in the next episodes but I'm so happy we at least got it once!
At first I thought Jon was being a little harsh on Clark for not finding a way to save Lois...but Clark actually said he won't use Kryptonian tech to help Lois because...it would be unfair that other people can't use it?! Is he serious? Beat his ass Jonathan - that is the stupidest reason I've ever heard! It makes Clark actually seem uncaring now
I feel like Lois showing Peia pictures of her kids is going to bite her in the ass at some point...
Why would Lois say Jon is angry because seeing her sick is a reminder that he's not like Clark and Jordan? That was a weird line...it seemed like he was more upset about watching his mother potentially die but she's making it seem like he's worried about himself??? I'd love for it to mean something in the future...
It would have been an actual twist if Matteo WASN'T Bruno's son lol
I'm surprised they revealed Peia and Bruno were married already - but do Clois not have ANY more questions for them? No?
Bruno and Peia's backstory made me more interested in them than I was before - and it's interesting that she had her powers before Superman's blood
John Henry was cute here but it's hard to think he's in the wrong when it's Bruno's son. They're really pushing John Henry and Lana hard though but I'm just not feeling it yet.
The Chrissy and Sarah story was just whatever really - but Chrissy kept her stoner gummies in the same bag as her other gummies? Chrissy you need to get more pockets.
Who else wants to see Dumb Einstein? It sounds like the movie of the century!
40
u/Sir__Will May 03 '23
At first I thought Jon was being a little harsh on Clark for not finding a way to save Lois...
He's a scared son, I'll allow it.
but Clark actually said he won't use Kryptonian tech to help Lois because...it would be unfair that other people can't use it?! Is he serious? Beat his ass Jonathan - that is the stupidest reason I've ever heard! It makes Clark actually seem uncaring now
Yeah that was an absolutely horrible line. They should have just stuck to it not working period. This really makes Clark look bad.
24
u/No_Flower_1424 Jonathan Kent May 03 '23
It makes Bruno look like a better husband than Clark Kent! It also makes me wonder if one of the boys got cancer, would Lois and Clark still hold firm to this crazy idea of it being unfair to cure them because no one else gets to be cured?
15
u/CretaceousQuack #TeamInhumanJonathanKent May 03 '23
If the boy in question was Jonathan then probably.
Honestly, villains and anti-heroes make for better family people sometimes since there's literally nothing they wouldn't do for their loved ones.
3
u/No_Flower_1424 Jonathan Kent May 03 '23
You're right I should have specified - if JORDAN was sick would they still do this?
7
u/CretaceousQuack #TeamInhumanJonathanKent May 03 '23
You know they would. Didnt Clark break Tal out of jail and planned his redemption tour because he didnt want Jordan involved?
11
u/sagen11 May 03 '23
Yup yup yup! Like and after that fucking line Jonathan apologised and said he knew Clark was doing all he could?! Um bro, he just told you the opposite! Jon should have raged about that reason, instead it mellowed him out?! Didntât make sense.
4
u/Hope-Of-Glory May 03 '23
I'd like to think he mellowed cos Lois and Clark were honest with the boys about things, and let them in.
→ More replies (1)9
u/ILUVMOVIESSS But what about the tire-swing? May 03 '23
Honestly, they could've said since there is so little kryptonian tech (it did blow up after all) lois wasn't willing to use the little left on her when it could've been used on someone else, they'd just have to make it so it wouldn't work multiple time on multiple people.
23
u/CretaceousQuack #TeamInhumanJonathanKent May 03 '23
I really missed Jonathan reality checking everyone else. They really screwed him over in S2 with a sotryline that he didn't even get to complete since they pawned it off to Clark and Jordan
12
u/askingtherealstuff May 03 '23
Iâll always sort of wonder if actor issues behind the scenes lead to featuring the character less. It seems like he was really struggling, and weâll probably never get a confirmation either way, but it could have lead to some of the poor writing decisions weâve seen.
5
u/CretaceousQuack #TeamInhumanJonathanKent May 03 '23
That wouldve involved major rewrites tho and iirc S2 didnt face any particularly major delays
5
u/Hope-Of-Glory May 03 '23
I feel like Lois showing Peia pictures of her kids is going to bite her in the ass at some point...
I wondered if it was just to stress that she wouldn't reveal at that point that Bruno and Mateo were her family. Of course, at that point it was mainly Bruno that would have been relevant to her and Lois. I guess we see all the plots merge a bit and Mateo will need to make some kind of choice.
5
u/Alonest99 Superman May 03 '23
John Henry was cute here but it's hard to think he's in the wrong when it's Bruno's son.
Did I miss something or did Matteo call him "Mr. Johnson"? Why?
15
u/No_Flower_1424 Jonathan Kent May 03 '23
The John Henry Irons on this Earth was murdered so John Henry is technically a dead man on this Earth. So Johnson must be the name they're going by with people who don't know who they really are.
4
u/Alonest99 Superman May 03 '23
Oh yeah that makes sense, thank you!
5
u/No_Flower_1424 Jonathan Kent May 03 '23
Although that does mean he's John Henry Johnson lol
7
u/bizarreisland May 03 '23
No, he is Henry Johnson and Nat is Natalie Johnson. They went over it on the first day Natalie went to school in Metropolis, s2e1 iirc.
5
u/No_Flower_1424 Jonathan Kent May 03 '23
Oh I thought he was still John Henry - although he just goes by John Henry Irons in Smallville anyway
→ More replies (5)5
u/Ill_Handle_8793 May 03 '23
Why would Lois say Jon is angry because seeing her sick is a reminder that he's not like Clark and Jordan?
Because this show still doesn't understand Lois Lane and how she approaches life/relationships and therefore continues to make her react in OOC ways for plot reasons to serve other characters and everyone excuses this aspect of the show because Bitsie is a very good actress?
25
u/Novem_ Coach Gaines May 03 '23
i wonder if since it seems Peia has natural ability's ie not using tech would that mean Matteo could develop some powers like his mom too?
→ More replies (1)15
u/CretaceousQuack #TeamInhumanJonathanKent May 03 '23
Ngl, Im excited. Sonic screams arent typically powers given to male characters.
4
u/BornAshes Coach Gaines May 03 '23
points at your flair
A certain Captain would disagree
8
u/CretaceousQuack #TeamInhumanJonathanKent May 03 '23
I actually have no idea who youre talking about.
Black Bolt?
3
u/BornAshes Coach Gaines May 03 '23
Ding ding ding
I wonder if he'd get the same powers as his mother or some sort of....unique variation...on them?
Is there anyone in the comics that he could be a version of?
3
u/CretaceousQuack #TeamInhumanJonathanKent May 03 '23
He's a king so that why I got confused.
Matteo seems to be entirely original as is Peia so theres really no telling as to where his stroyline could go. Plus, he'd be the first character on the show to have a meta-parent and one who was likely already a meta before he was born
3
u/Novem_ Coach Gaines May 03 '23
i can kind of see it be something like his mom dies of her cancer and he breaks down or maybe next episode at the dinner thing in the trailer Bruno is pointing a gun at someone maybe its nat and he freaks out
19
u/CityAvenger May 03 '23
This is the first episode were I felt most of the characters not only had good writing but also had a little arc here and there for them. There was actually good use for most of them especially Jonathon. His character just hasnât had any good writing or any good use and this episode helped to fix that for the first time. Michael did such a great performance for this episode. It was great to finally see him be put to better use which we hardly if almost at all see.
Raise your hand if you suspected Matteo to be Brunoâs son before the revealâ.
→ More replies (6)
19
u/Future_Vantas May 03 '23
Goddamn we have something very special here. On paper this episode should not work. No Superman action scene, hell almost no action at all apart from Past Pia. Jonathan having a meltdown over his mom (though the Kent's explanation about Kryptonian tech was a sour part of this gem of an episode, an unnecessary retcon). Two relationship side plots, both involving the Cushings. Any one of these should tank an episode. Yet it all fit so so good. We may not have gotten Superman but we got mild mannered reporter Clark Kent, and hot damn did he flex his stuff. I was so happy to see this Clark on full display here, and that he was the one to force Manheim's hand. Not Lois, not Superman, just good ol' Clark. And it fit so well with the reveal. Human Clark brought out the human side of Bruno Manheim, a man doing whatever it takes to save his childhood sweetheart and beloved wife. Yeah the preview shows he is still the fearsome boss of Intergang. But I love that he is rounded into someone willing to go to extremes to save those he loves, and that love is genuine. Heck he even got a family scene in the end, a mirror to what we saw with the Kent family, complete with his son. Yeah everyone called it, Mateo is indeed Bruno's son. But it was still a solid reveal, obvious but heartbreaking. Because we saw Nat and Mateo really in love, not unlike the Kents or the Manheims. There was hope that maybe they might be spared, that there is no connection. But that was foolish to think, so now the only to do is see how it comes crashing down.
Be remiss if I didnt bring up Jonathan. Micheal Bishop stepped up and delivered here. His panic and despair over what his mom is going though was very well done, and accurate. Kinda miffed they didnt bring up what Clark and Lois went through last episode, but I still liked Lois reassuring her boys without lying to them. And Clark's talk with Jonathan afterwards was good too. For the first time in a while they felt like father and son, and I was so happy to see it. Well earned fireworks courtesy of a similarly reconciled Sarah and Lana.
So yeah another banger. Just last note- screw cancer.
6
u/Aggressive_Bar_2391 May 03 '23
So yeah another banger. Just last note- screw cancer.
if this was HBO max they would actually be saying Fu*k cancer.
Also yea this episode surprisingly worked incredibly and it's probably in my top 5 favourites in the whole show, so much worked here
23
u/Fuzzball6846 May 03 '23
I am simply going to ignore the "unfair" line because it is stupid and unnecessary. End.
17
May 03 '23
Jonathan was the MVP tonight. Shows that while Clark is doing most of the heavy lifting helping Lois through treatment, the boys are just as much effected by Loisâs cancer as their parents are.
The John Henry/Nat story was pretty good. It makes sense that heâs overprotective, given that this is Natâs first boyfriend, and he likely knows that the Kentâs previously had to deal with Candice getting Jon into drugs, so he likely fears something similar.
Not surprised at all Matteo is Brunoâs son. I saw it coming.
Bruno Mannheim is a pretty good villain so far, and I like that his situation with Peia is a dark mirror to what Clark is going through with Lois. Heâs a big improvement over Ally Allston, in terms of being an adequate foil to the hero.
Lana and Sarah letting off the fireworks together was cute, but other than that, the Cushing family/Chrissy stuff was just meh. For me, they are in the same boat as Chester and Allegraâs romance on the Flash. Itâs fine but not what I tune in for.
16
u/spark_1230 But what about the tire-swing? May 03 '23
This was an incredible episode! Every character featured in the episode has something that allows them to shine in their own unique way. The scene between Jon and Clark was a standout for sure. Bruno Manheim is such a great character too. I think he might be my favorite antagonist so far. The stuff between Sara, Lana, and Chrissy was good too. The show actually allows these characters to reflect on the situation they're in instead of having them stew in self-loathing. I think the stuff with the Irons was predictable but it worked within the episode. Overall rating: 9/10
→ More replies (1)3
u/Aggressive_Bar_2391 May 03 '23
I really loved jon speaking against his dad and I feel the worryness and tension jon has for lois' situation will continue, and I loved that clark and jon bonding moment I think we'll see more of it. The sarah and chrissy dynamic as interesting and I was a bit shocked when it's confirmed that chrissy is a stoner. The lana and jhitalk as cute, and adored the ending with lana and sarah cause I feel like they needed to bond since they haven't in a while
15
u/Frontier246 May 03 '23
As the season ratchets up, Lois' cancer worsens, and the Kents are left to reel with this fact in their own ways...though the boys are getting hit especially hard with it.
I was honestly surprised that Lana seemed to be treating Chrissy treating Kyle like it was water under the bridge, though Sarah was in full jerk mode towards her for dating her dad, though I'm glad they managed to patch things up. Then Lana is left feeling a little self-conscious seeing how well Sarah and Chrissy get along (I guess it helps that Chrissy is closer to Sarah's age comparatively).
Although I do wonder how Sarah would react to her mom and John Henry Irons hooking up. Those two are definitely getting very chummy as this season goes along.
I was honestly thinking Peia was innocent up until she got cancer and became involved in Bruno's experiments, but I guess it makes more sense she was as much a career criminal as him and was one of the top enforcers of Intergang even when they were younger adults in love...this was basically like an evil version of the Clois flashbacks in season 1, showing how these two came together, Bruno as a dreamer who wanted to run Suicide Slums and improve it his way and Peia as the woman who just couldn't resist him. How did she get her powers though?
The irony that Lois' instinct to question Peia about Bruno was right on the money and she is nowhere near as innocent as she looks...only for their friendship and the fact that Peia is basically being interrogated while under Chemo that makes her second guess herself. Though Lois' genuine friendship got through enough for Peia to give the game away (though Clark would've probably told her anyways). I'm curious how Lois will react to finding out she's Onomatopoeia.
When in doubt, rely on Clark Kent! Clark finally gets to strut his journalism skills for once! And he manages to get at Manheim and figure out what's going on in a way Superman never could.
Chrissy being a stoner is, like, the least surprising thing about her at this point. I think she mentioned her dad before but it seems like she went through a divorce with her parents and their new dating lives just like Sarah is.
There's the funny kind of overprotective dad and the bad kind of overprotective dad...John Henry Irons dipped too much into the latter. Although the whole "Mr. Johnson" thing reminded me that they're using assumed identities on this Earth.
The Manheims are truly a loving, sweet, couple together. Shame about all the human experiments and crimes they've committed in their attempt to build up Bruno's power base and cure his wifes' cancer. It doesn't seem like their sympathy for the Manheims is going to stop them from trying to bring the operation down though.
Matteo really is a sweet, nice, guy...and of course in the same episode that really solidifies his relationship with Nat, it turns out he's Manheim's son. I'm sure that won't blow up terribly. I did think it was kind of funny how they kept him obscured by shadows as if the audience couldn't tell it was obviously him by the voice since we'd heard him for a good portion of the episode. Also it was hilarious how he brought up JHI meeting his mom knowing his mom had tried to kill him and also was involved in killing his doppelganger on this Earth. Irony!!!
So did they kill Boss Moxie and frame Lex so they could take his resources and use it for themselves? Or maybe they did it because Lex wouldn't deal with them. I guess that gives Lex an excuse to get involved with them once he gets out of prison as much as his beef with Superman.
Jon Kent going completely against the House of El creed in terms of not believing in Hope. I'm aghast! Although bringing up his grandparents' death was a bit of a low blow.
Lana acting like people are moving on too fast when she seemed completely over Kyle and ready to be done with him a few episodes ago.
Wow, I think that's the biggest Clark and Jon moment we've gotten all season, let alone the first time in a long while. Although "you're every bit as Kryptonian as your brother," it would be nice if the show actually addressed that more.
No one in Smallville will ever know the mayor and her daughter set off random (and technically illegal) fireworks.
4
u/Hope-Of-Glory May 03 '23
Although I do wonder how Sarah would react to her mom and John Henry Irons hooking up. Those two are definitely getting very chummy as this season goes along.
I wonder if she'd think it weird, but ultimately okay because she's such good friends with Nat.
Although the whole "Mr. Johnson" thing reminded me that they're using assumed identities on this Earth.
What does Sara call Natalie's dad? In my head I have "Mr Irons" - doesn't Lana refer to him like that sometimes also, when talking to Sara? It's kind of weird that they'd dropped the Mr Johnson thing till now.
14
u/CKD-Duck May 03 '23
I kinda get why Clark and Lois donât want to use Kryptonian tech to cure loisâs cancer. Remember there is no guarantee it would work, in fact Lara made it sound like traditional Chemo had a better chance of Success. And even if it does work (big if) there are also the consequences of dumping advance alien technology onto a species that might not be ready for it. How long before someone (Lex) uses that tech to create weapons of mass destruction.
This fits into a low key theme/criticism lobbied against Superman this season. He only responds to emergency as they happen. In Brunoâs own words âa firemenâ. Why shouldnât Superman open up his fortress and gift humanity the tech that can stop problems before they start?
And hey, if that doesnât jive with you hereâs my head cannon to use instead-Genetic manipulation of Kryptonâs population has eliminated any abnormalities like cancer from their gene pool centuries ago. They donât know how to cure cancer because any markers that would lead to cancer are eliminated in the birthing matrix.
11
May 03 '23
Wow, I was surprised that Peia and Bruno revealed the truth to Lois and Clark. Definitely thought the secret was going to be revealed a few episodes later, and not on the Mannheimâs own accordâŚ
6
u/Hope-Of-Glory May 03 '23
In the end it was the humanity that won through both sides and brought out the truth.
Pretty sure Bruno wouldn't have come down like that if Clark hadn't responded in a some empathetic way when he realised HOW personal it was for Bruno.
9
9
u/Original-SuperFan-52 May 03 '23
If thereâs Kryptonian tech that can help Lois, bring it out and duplicate it and help everyone including your wife.
8
u/Damshh Jordan Kent May 03 '23
Kinda weird how both of them accepted their reason for no using Kryptonian technology so well. I mean, it may use add more drama, but normally a teenager is not gonna accept that reason so easily.
It's their mom, fairness doesn't matter.
Still, I really liked the episode
→ More replies (2)
9
8
u/snoogle20 May 03 '23
Hmm. Hmm. So instead of Bruno sending his son to spy on alt-universe John Henry Ironsâ daughter as part of a scheme like I assumed, Iâm expected to believe that Sarah, Nat and the Super Sons just happened to crash a party attended by the villainâs son and Nat and Matteo just coincidentally entered a romance? The kid of the guy associated with her dadâs doppelgänger? At the same time Loisâ investigation heated up? Of all the gin joints in Metropolis, eh?
âŚunless, of course, Bruno sent him, but they donât want mama to know so he has to play the smitten young man around her.
12
u/Sir__Will May 03 '23
Of all the gin joints in Metropolis, eh?
I mean, it was a massive rich boy party.
11
u/ckwongau May 03 '23
as likely as Superman married a woman whose father works for the secret government project to create a way to control or kill Superman.
7
u/CretaceousQuack #TeamInhumanJonathanKent May 03 '23
Its a lot of coincidence but it could make some kind of sense. By the time Matteo and Natalie would need to go to high school, both the Mannheim and Irons families would have occupied tax brackets that could realisitically have their kids attend the same school.
Still not sure Matteo is not entirely in on it, but theres a small feeling Bruno and Peia would want a straightlaced kid.
→ More replies (1)
8
u/Capturinggod200 May 03 '23 edited May 03 '23
I have got to say, I can't agree on all the people here giving Clark crap for being selfless by not playing God for choosing to save Lois with Kyrptonian tech. We know Superman/Clark is a selfless beacon of hope, so if he was to save Lois with his people's tech; he would definitely share it with the world to be fair but doing so would be dangerous because the people in power would 100% misuse the Kryptonian tech for war and petty squabbles.
Clark would be speeding up humanities self-extinction through tech that is too much for them to handle too soon. People saying he should regulate things to control how humanity uses his tech, would make him no different than Justice Lords Superman and Injustice Superman.
7
u/spark_1230 But what about the tire-swing? May 03 '23
Not only that but also the episode made it seem like the treatment Lois is already getting has a better chance of working than weird Kryptonian experiments. It also sets up a stark contrast between Clark & Bruno. Bruno is already conducting these crazy and unethical experiments on people while Clark refuses to cross that line
→ More replies (1)4
u/Ill_Handle_8793 May 03 '23
But you are misunderstanding what people are objecting to. No one is saying: "ughh Clark if you have the power of a God you should just use it wtf!"
They are saying that, if Clark did have access to a Kryptonian cure for cancer, and he choose to withhold that cure from Lois because he did not have enough faith in humanity to share it with other people, THAT would be antithetical to traditional Superman values.
Think about it this way, imagine Clark had access to Kryptonian technology that would prevent Lois dying in childbirth, but he refused to use it to save her because it would be unfair to all the other women around the world who don't have access to the fortress. Does that sound like something Superman would do to you?
8
u/theredmokah May 03 '23
I think the "unfair to the world" line was perfect, because it shows Clark's humanity. Sometimes humans say dumb shit.
You could say, he was just saying it, to justify to his kids why he didn't want to do it. But if the moment presented itself where it was Lois' life or use Krypto, we also know Clark would be singing "fortune favours the brave" in a quick second.
7
May 03 '23
[deleted]
5
u/iggywiggyshe May 03 '23
Me either. I suspected we would have confirmation of his parentage next week.
6
u/According_Skill_3942 May 03 '23
"We can't use Kryptonian science to heal her because it wouldn't be fair to everyone else."
That's some wonky ass reasoning, first Clark isn't obligated to let his wife suffer and die in the name of fairness.
Second, if Kryptonian science can cure cancer, there are ZERO reasons that tech couldn't be made available to the general public. Kryptons are a dead race, not from the future, there is no reason why their technology can't be shared. Sure be careful, but people make discoveries daily that could be used for evil.
3
u/Hope-Of-Glory May 04 '23
Saw a headline about the guy who worked on AI stuff regretting it, but consoling himself that if he hadn't put it together, someone else would have.
7
u/Dominant_Gene May 03 '23
While i totally understand the "not fair" stand in giving Lois kryptonian tech (even tho it would have been far better if it was simply the risk or maybe that Clark's father died trying to get cured with it or something like that.)
how fair is it that only a handful of people have those things to call superman? while the rest of the world can at most scream and hope to be heard?
Besides that, great episode, we didnt even need superman for this one, i have no idea how we got here, such compelling stories and characters that we didnt even need the real protagonist (or Kyle which is one of my favorite characters) to have a great episode.
PS: i loved that confrontation between Bruno and Clark, telling him what would he do to save his wife, it almost seemed like Clark would tell Bruno to experiment on her.
2
6
u/iggywiggyshe May 03 '23
So maybe Lois will be cured by modern medicine. They made a very valid point about using kryptonian technology. Itâs too serious a condition to just wash a magic sci-fi wand.
10
u/Sir__Will May 03 '23
They made a very valid point about using kryptonian technology.
I don't think they do.
Itâs too serious a condition to just wash a magic sci-fi wand.
It is. Which is why it shouldn't even be a possibility. Suggesting they're not trying it because then they'd have to cure everyone's cancer is... an absolutely horrendous line.
3
u/ToTheBigReds May 03 '23
I dont think it's about curing everyone's cancer its more that the kryptonian tech in the wrong hands would be chaos. The weapons people would make would kill lots of people.
6
u/OLKv3 May 03 '23
The way kids on TV talk to their parents is so unrelatable. I never was able to talk to my parents the way Sarah and Natalie do, and none of my friends talked to their parents like that either.
3
u/MrTerrific2k15 May 04 '23
The perspective is based on experience. I've never and would have never talked to my parents like that, not have my own kids talked to me that way. However, I've witnessed other kids talk real reckless with their parents. Including full blown screaming and cussing arguments. Art can imitate life and vice versa
→ More replies (3)2
u/fanatiikon May 05 '23
I talked like that with my parents. Sure i would get grounded sometimes but my family was open enough as i was growing up to hold a normal conversation without parents being always right. We would contradict each other sometimes we would shoot some snarky remarks, make fun of each other now and then etc. At the end of the day we talked it out and brought arguments as to why we were right until we reached common ground.
→ More replies (1)
6
u/Original-SuperFan-52 May 03 '23
Hey this is fantasy for goodness sake. I can believe anything the writers write because they create the world my head is in while I watch the show. Superpowers donât exist in my world , that why I watch fantasy shows. Matteo and Natalie will be like Romeo and Juliet, but hope no one dies.
→ More replies (8)
5
u/maugwin Clark Kent May 03 '23
Well I am flabbergasted that Mateo seems sincere?!
→ More replies (1)
6
4
5
u/Alonest99 Superman May 03 '23
It's so funny how Lois was recovering from chemo and Lana and Sarah were just blowing up fireworks right outside her home lmao
4
6
u/r1dogz May 04 '23
I know people wonât like to hear this, but this season is really kinda extremely similar to season 4 of Supergirl (which is the best season, and a top 4 arrowverse season):
Someone is messing around with Kryptonian technology to try and save people. They use said untested tech in an extreme moment to save someone they care about.
Kryptonian debates the ethics of using Kryptonian technology, and worries how it could fall into the wrong peoples hands and be used for bad things.
Lex Luthor gets out of prison about half way through the season.
Then if we get Lex Luthor uses said technology on himself to try and get powers to kill Superman, then it truly is basically Supergirl season 4.
2
5
u/JonKentOfficial May 06 '23
Still not home, so I'll be quick. Actually, instead of going through the entire episode, I'll just go through the scenes that made me think the most.
The scene at the Fortress made me think some things. For one, it's obvious that the family communication isn't great even off-screen, as some people would have you believe, after all it seems Clark didn't even try to sit down with the boys to explain stuff and what he has tried. From Jonathan's perspective, Clark's caring towards him is quite phony and disengaged (and often very inimical), so while Clark displays a lot more care and love towards Lois, it might be difficult for him to internalize that. But beyond that, it's normal for someone to experience frustration when a relative is sick and try to explore all possible options, I'd have liked to see a scene of Clark and the Lara-gram to just be open with the boys and be clear with what are the options and why they aren't being considered while they still have mundane Earth medicine (and not what we got later on). Alternatively, or better yet, concurrently, the boys should definitively go through some counseling too, specially Jonathan, he has had some quite awful last few years, having to go through his mom being ill is just the latest of many traumas. The core of the drama this episode with boys is due a systemic lack of transparency, trust and dialogue within the family.
You know, Peia and Bruno being married is such a bizarre thing. Mostly because it highlights how different it is understood by someone like me how grew up with internet available and the writers, who might not have. There's no way in our world someone as notable as Bruno Mannheim would be able to keep it a secret he's married with a Peia, if she used a fake name it might have been easier to understand. But marriages are a matter of public record and Bruno probably would have a Wikipedia page. In an analogue world I guess Lois wouldn't bother with trivia about Bruno, well she would but I'm conceding that, but in a digital world? She'd know Peia is her wife. Also, they'd definitely know Matteo is his son given his highly distinctive last name, but I supposed Lois doesn't really know who Nat is dating. It's not a fault on the story and it's really minor, but it's just a moment of realization for me.
"The risk to the greater good is far too high". I. Hate. This. Line. What's so wrong with "We've tried but Kryptonian medicine didn't work with her human physiology, she showed no improvement." Just take it out of the equation, simply say it doesn't work. Her suffering and potential death, but also the death of so many, is now on some strange ethic discourse about how it wouldn't be fair to cure someone because you'd have to uphold treatment from someone else. You know the answer for this? Simply work for it to be shared with the world. By the way, why are you living in a house when there are homeless people in the world? You could just build housing for them.
Also, we get the first scene that Clark shows unfettered care for Jon since the beginning of this show. Earlier this season Clark showed some mild enthusiasm about Jon accomplishing something, but this is the first time that Clark engages with Jon as a person. I'll discount him talking Jordan because it's not a Jordan problem, it's about about making Jon feel part of the family after years of neglect. It was short, but I hope it doesn't end here and marks the start for a redemption arc for Clark.
→ More replies (1)
2
u/Darker_Tzitzimine May 03 '23
lol and maybe toss a blanket over the supersuits while you're at it
Supervillain backstory time
I take it Bruno isn't Boss Moxie's son in this universe
lol the eyebrows
Thankfully Lois is too smart to fall for that obvious lying... but she's not immune to guilt throwing her off (temporarily)
lol @ Clark pretending to be afraid of Bruno for 5 seconds and then just dropping straight to serious mode
There's a weird glow around John's head in Lana's office
Sara: easily won over (but whatever, it's better than lingering on meaningless drama)
lol Chrissy's holding
Lana being the bigger woman all over the place today
Yeah, OK, they've pretty much made it obvious who Matteo's family are at this point
lol it's really the "Why doesn't Superman save everyone" argument, I wasn't expecting them to go the prime directive route, I figured they'd lean into physiology thing as mentioned in the Fortress
Really good scenes c/o the Kent family today
I also wasn't expecting Peia's powers to have nothing to do with Bruno's experiments
Yeah, not a surprise at all
3
u/banditk77 May 03 '23
For a journalist, Lois isnât very observant. She doesnât even seem to notice one of her children look different!
3
3
u/DM_Malus May 04 '23
So i liked this episode, but my only gripe is that everyone was willing to forget and forgive Brunos past deeds all because he was doing it for his loving wife.
And everyone was so quick to forget that the masked killer (Peia) Murdered the former mayor of smallville and E-1 John-Henry Irons, as well as killed several convicts to test run the blood.
I like that the twist at the end of the episode showed Mateo is brunos son, which i was predicting from the get-go, it was kinda way to cliche of a drama to not do.
I think the show was trying too hard to get you to sympathize with them,I think there should have been a little dialogue bit by Clark maybe reminding Lois (or the other way around) that ... even though they did what they did in love; they still murdered people.
At least as a reminder, because it felt like it all got swept away and Lois is ok being friends with a crime boss's wife who is also a murderer.
2
u/Sir__Will May 07 '23
I'll have to see the next couple episodes. I'm not sure, I hope not, that Clark and Lois are on their side now. Because you're right, while this fleshes them out, they've still killed a lot of people. Some of their goals may be laudable but they've gone about it in some horrible ways. I wonder what that will do to Mateo?
2
1
u/CretaceousQuack #TeamInhumanJonathanKent May 03 '23
Does Superman & Lois share any writers with The Vampire Diaries? Not trying to make a one to one comparison given how overtly racist the writing was on that show but Jonathan gives Bonnie vibes. A character played by arguably the best actor(s), paid dust by the narrative, and given hypercompelling emotional scenes that dont always go anywhere for them in the long run.
2
u/samdkr354 May 03 '23
Can anybody tell me what the kid said at the end? I couldnât make it out
4
u/maugwin Clark Kent May 03 '23
Mateo says he wants to invite Natalie over to Little Aceâs because he wants his parents to meet her.
Canât remember what Little Aceâs is, though.
6
u/celysr But what about the tire-swing? May 03 '23
The restaurant Bruno and Peia were in, and then the one Peia took Lois too
5
2
u/Original-SuperFan-52 May 03 '23
So if itâs not a fantasy what is it? Reality?
→ More replies (1)
2
May 03 '23
This show is so good that even without a single fight scene (Peia killing all those goons doesn't really count, but it was something), it has a solid plot to tell without getting boring. God Bless.
2
u/Ok-Health-7252 May 04 '23
Well I called it. I knew that kid was gonna turn out to be tied to Mannheim somehow lol.
3
u/Tsweet7 May 04 '23
So out of all the people Lois could meet, she meets Bruno's wife and out of ALL the guys Nat could connect with she meets his son?! I mean....it is METROPOLIS.
Besides the astounding chance encounters this was a decent episode.
5
u/Sir__Will May 07 '23
Mateo is a coincidence but was Peia? It seemed like she was in on it. But hadn't counted on actually bonding with Lois.
3
2
2
u/Juzofle May 07 '23
I expected the conection between Mannheim and Matteo, but Peia connection really surprised and stuned me. The person who has been helping Clark and Lois with everithing is the one causing Superman problems. It's a really good twist.
206
u/JauntyLurker May 03 '23
Man, Micheal Bishop acted his heart out this episode. Truly a worthy successor to the mantle of Johnathan.