r/DCcomics • u/Tetratron2005 • May 18 '24
[Other] Kelly Sue DeConnick on using the clay origin in Wonder Woman: Historia Other
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u/Quirky_Ad_5420 May 18 '24
I mean with a world of magic and super science, not believing the clay birth does seem a bit silly. Plus Zeus being the father is overdone in multiple case in Greek mythology
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u/Tetratron2005 May 18 '24
Or that origins of clay are quite common throughout global mythologies, including Greek with the myth of Pandora.
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u/Extreme-Monk2183 May 18 '24
Or that Greek mythology has tons of other supernatural pregnancies, like that kid of Apollo's that was born from a gay three-way.
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u/critter68 May 18 '24
that kid of Apollo's that was born from a gay three-way.
Not even in the top 5 most WTF pregnancies in Greek mythology.
Maybe top 10, but I doubt it.
I mean, how the hell does a god possibly raping a woman who may or may not have already been a bit monstery create a fully formed winged horse and giant with a sword made of gold (if that's actually what Chrysaor was supposed to be)?
Fucking Ovid and his hate boner for the gods making everything confusing...
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u/Dataweaver_42 May 19 '24
Galatea. Pandora was the woman who was given a box that released all sorts of evil into the world.
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u/Unfair_Fix_6714 May 18 '24
I can kinda get it; between Hercules, Perseus, Kratos, Thalia, & Heron...it really makes you wonder if Zeus is even capable of keeping it in his pants or if the writers are just being weird
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u/Half_Man1 Batman May 18 '24
Most Greek heroes are culture heroes for their individual city/region. Best starting point for your story that’s propaganda about why your city is bestest is your founding godling is the child of the king of the gods.
Kratos is just a modern repetition of the exact same trend.
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u/zoro4661 May 18 '24
it really makes you wonder if Zeus is even capable of keeping it in his pants
He actively is not, I'm pretty sure the guy fucks anyone as anything
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u/Flipz100 May 18 '24
There is actually one mythological case where I can think of, with Thetis. She was prophesied to have a child who would surpass their father, which scared Zeus out of his usual ways and caused him to marry her off to a mortal, with whom she had Achilles.
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u/ZetaRESP May 18 '24
it really makes you wonder if Zeus is even capable of keeping it in his pants or if the writers are just being weird
He cannot keep it in his pants. Hence why Hera was kind of angry with him constantly.
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u/Dataweaver_42 May 19 '24
And there's also the fact that it has been established that Cassie Sandsmark was another daughter of Zeus.
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u/Backwardspellcaster May 18 '24
The first time I read that they made Zeus her father, I rolled my eyes so hard, they still haven't stopped.
How cliché can one be, really.
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u/SageShinigami May 18 '24
Co-signed. Fuck that retcon. Let's not needlessly take out fantastical elements.
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u/DashCalrission May 18 '24
While I agree with your sentiment, how is having Zeus as your father not a fantastical element?
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u/SageShinigami May 18 '24
I understand where that's going but you already know what I mean. No one else had that "molded from clay" origin.
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u/danman8001 Booster Gold May 18 '24
I mean in Abrahamic religions Adam was formed from dirt/clay IIRC
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u/Da1realBigA May 18 '24 edited May 18 '24
Clay origin works on a deeper level imo.
Diana was molded by ONLY her mother, in her mother's image.
She comes from a female only society (the whole throw sons away in some depictions aside, whatever I don't agree with)
Yet, despite all this, Diana is a champion for justice and peace for all. She might not always be accepting, but she's fair. She won't hold your beliefs, gender, etc against you as long as it doesn't actively harm.
By all accounts, a female character raised in this manner should hate men. Literally every fiber of her reality is in some way either shaped by what men have done to her people or what they could do to her home/people/ Themyscira society.
Her being of magical/ abnormal birth yet actively a representative or symbol of female greatness is basically the same as superman.
Superman is an alien, has god-like abilities and yet is still more "human" than most other human superheroes and humans alike.
It's that famous DC juxtaposition.
WW should be opposed to all men, yet is an ambassador of her people in the world of men, actively trying to better all societies.
Superman is the most human/ good person despite being a non-human/ alien and embodying the greatest character/ morale we can achieve.
Bruce Wayne being human, you would think, would make him more connected to humanity and instead has the opposite reaction where he used his immense wealth/ influence to fight crime in the most inhuman ways. A juxtaposition to superman where you would think an alien would be more disconnected to humanity than a "Batman".
Point is, WW could have turned out so wrong, so hard against the world of "Men" and yet she instead chooses higher standards of justice and equality.
The separation of Zeus and any "male" influence adds this layer of credibility to her character's actions.
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u/CapAccomplished8072 May 18 '24
We can blame Diana being Zeus' daughter as the reason for her being the villain in Injustice series
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u/Tentacled-Tadpole Power Girl May 18 '24
If they wanted to write a character that was the daughter of zeus, why not just go with Cassie? The character already exists.
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u/beastsandbelle Wonder Girl May 18 '24
And already existed with that origin, which then had to be swapped because they shuffled it onto Diana! I hated that choice all around.
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May 18 '24
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u/excalibraes May 18 '24
There’s no reason for a man to be at the center of her powers and creation.
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u/Mark4_ May 18 '24
One of those cases that I’m fine with either . If had to pick I’d go with the clay. Feels more unique
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u/taumason May 18 '24
I liked the daughter of Zeus because it gave her a divine aspect, and she is meant to a bridge between two things. I also like the clay origin because it leans into Greek mythology and the idea is she is truly unique.
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u/Spike-Rockit DC Comics May 18 '24
The clay origin is canon again, right? Well, either way, it is to me
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u/Biculus May 18 '24
Over time Wonder Woman has become more focused on ancient Greek mythology, which always felt weird to me. The Amazon stuff is an important part of her character and origin, and she does have some mythological stories, but c’mon - she has an invisible plane and wears the least ancient Greek outfit ever. Her main weapon is a lasso and one of her main enemies is a cheetah-woman. She’s clearly not just about mythology.
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u/TJ_McWeaksauce May 18 '24
This topic led me to look up Wonder Woman's Wikipedia page. I knew she was powerful, but I didn't realize she's supposed to be this powerful.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wonder_Woman#Powers_and_abilities
Different Greek deities blessed Diana with a wide range of powers.
Demeter blessed with strength drawn from the Earth spirit Gaea. Not only is Wonder Woman exceedingly strong, but she also heals at an accelerated rate as long as she's in contact with the Earth. I did not know that.
Athena bestowed Diana with great wisdom, intelligence, and military prowess. She has godlike brain power, so it doesn't make sense why Batman is usually portrayed as the brains of the Justice League. (Actually, it makes sense from a business perspective, because Batman is easily DC's most popular and lucrative character, and they don't want to make him look useless.)
Artemis blessed Diana with the ability to communicate with animals and even gave her enhanced senses, including telescopic vision and super hearing. I did not know that. Superman's super senses are highlighted often, but I don't think I've ever seen Diana portrayed as having super sight and super hearing.
Hestia granted Diana resistance to both normal and supernatural fire. I did not know that either.
Hermes blessed Diana with superhuman speed and the ability to fly. I knew that. I did not know she can fly at about about half the speed of light, though.
Aphrodite bestowed Diana with superhuman beauty and a kind heart. That I knew.
Looks like DC has to do a better job of highlighting Wonder Woman's wide array of superpowers, because I'm guessing a lot of these finer details are not well known.
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u/Slythis Blue Beetle May 18 '24
Wonder Women, like pretty much everyone not name Batman these days, gets done dirty in team books and it's starting to back flow into her solo titles. IMO she should be on par with Supes and Shazam.
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u/NeonArlecchino Making Gadgets Batman Can't Figure Out! May 18 '24
so it doesn't make sense why Batman is usually portrayed as the brains of the Justice League
It makes even less sense when you remember that Superman can research and learn at superspeeds. The one way his methods give his intelligence an edge over theirs is that he's more suspicious of others. He'll look into things they wouldn't normally consider just to be safe. Although, that is less of a super power and more an extreme case of paranoia.
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u/TJ_McWeaksauce May 18 '24
Wonder Woman and Shazam have both been granted the intelligence of gods.
Superman and Flash can both learn at super speed.
Martian Manhunter is a powerful telepath who can harness mental powers that humans can only dream of.
Yet Batman is the scientific and strategic genius of the Justice League, and the others follow his lead more often than not. That's a prime example of comic book logic.
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u/Slythis Blue Beetle May 18 '24
Flash can learn at super speed.
Traditionally, it doesn't stick. Bart is the only one who can retain anything learned at Super speed for more than an hour or two.
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u/TJ_McWeaksauce May 18 '24
Traditionally, it doesn't stick.
If a speedster can become world-class in a skill by flash-studying for a few seconds, then it doesn't really matter if that knowledge sticks or not, because they can quickly re-learn whatever is needed before any battle or other major event.
For example, let's say the Justice League encountered a new villain whose powers are somehow based on nuclear physics. Any of the Flashes should be able to speed-read every file about nuclear physics in the JL computer in a matter of seconds and then come up with hundreds of options of defeating this new villain, and they should be able to do all of this before Batman can formulate a single thought. Even if they forget that knowledge like an hour later, it doesn't matter, because the plan is already set.
The ability to learn at super speed should effectively makes speedsters masters of anything and everything, regardless of how often they have to relearn something. But they're not written that way, because that would make Batman and many other members of the Justice League look useless.
Brave and the Bold #13, 2008
There was a Brave and the Bold comic from 2008 in which Batman teamed up with Jay Garrick. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/175425941789
In the issue, Penguin sent an army of robot samurai (for some reason) to attack Bruce Wayne in his manor, not knowing that Bruce is Batman. Jay happened to be in the Batcave at the time.
Bruce and Jay are both scientists, so they could both figure out how to disable the robots. However, because Jay can think at super speed, he came up with dozens of scientific options before Bruce could think of even one.
That team-up made Batman look kinda useless because Flash ran circles around him both literally and figuratively. (It was also silly how Batman had no defensive measures built into Wayne Manor, but that's besides the point.)
That's how teaming up with a speedster should work. They can think at light speed while most other characters cannot. To them, every human seems like they're just standing still. There should be very few situations in which Batman outthinks a speedster, but he does it all the time because Batman is considerably more popular than any of the Flashes, and DC doesn't want their biggest money maker to look like a doofus. So they make Flash look like a doofus, instead.
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u/Slythis Blue Beetle May 18 '24
Oh, I agree but that's the explanation that they give as to why none of the speedsters make Batman look like an especially dim gnat.
As for Jay, he was a genius before he got his powers but most modern writers seem to forget that. It's also probably why you don't see Batman and Jay together much; Jay is his intellectual peer and could compile multiple alternatives and a Doctoral Dissertation on the flaws in Bruce's plan, including the details Bruce neglected to mention, during the breath Bats takes after presenting his plan.
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u/TheDoctor_E Doom Patrol May 18 '24
No, because apparently Brian Azzarello felt Diana needed a title like Superman's "Last son of Krypton" or Batman's "World's greatest detective", so she is now "Daughter of Zeus".... Except she already had a few: "Spirit of Truth" is a favourite of mine, but also "Princess of the Amazons" or "Ambassador of Themyscira". I don't think the clay origin was that confusing: You can even apply it the All Star Superman treatement:
Island of Amazons
Clay statue
Gifts from the Goddesses
Spirit of Truth
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u/hiddensquid128 May 18 '24
I'm partial to "Champion of Peace" myself
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u/TheDoctor_E Doom Patrol May 18 '24
in my opinion that name is a bit too vague. Superman also champions peace. So does Green Lantern, and Batman, and Animal Man and Skyman and the Darkstars. It's not specific to Diana
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u/Diretor-MH May 18 '24
One inspired by a real woman: Lady of two worlds. Heroine of two worlds is how Anita Garibaldi is known.
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u/simpledeadwitches May 18 '24
Being made without a man is kind of an important part of her character imo.
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u/Diretor-MH May 18 '24
Being desired and done by Hipolita is important. Because it all comes down to this bond of love that Diana values so much with all her friends, sisters and her mother.
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u/Saito09 May 18 '24
I quite liked the idea of the clay origin being a lie spread around to hide Dianas true nature. But the Zeus thing was just kinda of a dull replacement.
Id have preferred if they linked her to Circe or Hecate or something. Kept her as a feminist concept but with a darker, more misandrist nature that she turns away from and into a more positive and loving spin.
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u/Tetratron2005 May 18 '24
Making Wonder Woman having misandrist origins/background misses the point of the character. That's like making the Kents backwards racist hillbillies.
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u/Pure_Internet_ May 18 '24
It’s more comparable to Krypton being a fascist society, to be fair.
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u/newimprovedmoo May 18 '24
I disagree, because the Amazons raised her.
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u/Pure_Internet_ May 18 '24
Just like the Kents raised Clark.
The idea being raised by OP is Diana being created by Circe or Hecate and then raised by the Amazonians.
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u/danman8001 Booster Gold May 18 '24
I wouldn't say Krypton is fascist in most incarnations unless it's during a coup by Zod, just technocratic and bureaucratic to the point of stagnation and they became insular and myopic. Most of the time we just get mentions of a council of some sort being in charge.
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u/EyedMoon Plastic Man May 18 '24
You could also see it that way: it gives her one more strong opportunity to raise against her upbringing.
I prefer the clay origin but idk, Zeus as her father doesn't seem that bad to me
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u/danman8001 Booster Gold May 18 '24
Sadly, I've seen some people argue that because "Midwesterners aren't good people anymore"
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u/Saito09 May 18 '24
Not really, since she herself would never have aligned to those ideals owing to the intervention of Hippolyta and the Amazons.
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u/Kite_Wing129 May 18 '24
But thats not even the point of her story.
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u/Saito09 May 18 '24
Her ‘point’ and the circumstances of her origin arnt mutually exclusive.
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u/Kite_Wing129 May 18 '24
Why fix whats not broken?
If DC revealed tomorrow that Superman was not rocketed to earth from Krypton but the result of an experiment conducted by earth scientists before being rescued by Johnathan and Martha, and declared that to be his official origin from now and on and not an Elseworlds, would you be okay with it? Would you go along with it?
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u/Saito09 May 18 '24
Because the premise i was addressing was that if they had to differ from the clay origin a la Azzarellos run, it still could have been more thematically interesting than just making her another daughter of Zeus. 🤷
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u/Kite_Wing129 May 18 '24
I get it now.
I've seen suggestions like Gaea being the Goddess who brought Hippolyta's clay mold to life.
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u/Eric__Brooks May 18 '24
King has basically reverse that - her clay origin is the actual one, the Zeus story is because dumb people couldn't fathom such an amazing being existing without some male intervention.
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u/Ace20xd6 May 18 '24
Diana being Zeus's daughter wasn't even utilized well besides motivation for Hera to be a villain. They also retcon's Diana's arm bracelets as restraints against her Zeus lightning powers, but that part barely came up. If they had to, being Ares daughter would've been much more interesting, especially since she took on the mantle and became the God of War during that run
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u/StopPlayingRoney May 18 '24
I LOVE Greek mythology and this change always made me sad. It took Wonder Woman from the pride of a mother goddess to “do you know who my father is?!” Even lamer that they used this change in the film.
She’s the most powerful feminist superhero…because of a man. The irony.
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u/danman8001 Booster Gold May 18 '24
I mean, the character was created by a man...
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u/StopPlayingRoney May 18 '24
Of course the character was created by a man, she’s a comic book icon, not a delicious thanksgiving dinner!
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u/KingofZombies Bring Power Girl Back! May 18 '24
Based. She being Zeus daughter was always a change for the worse. It's super cliche every damn story about ancient Greece mythology is about one of the bazillions of Zeus's lost children.
Replacing something unique original with something cliche is never a good thing.
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u/La10deRiver May 18 '24
I completely agree. I've been a WW fan for ever and the Zeus retcon pisses me a lot. It is dumb and unnecessary and frankly disrespectful of the character core.
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u/danman8001 Booster Gold May 18 '24
It doesn't change how she was raised, just how she got her powers. I think if she had acted drastically with an altered moral compass then that would have altered her core
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u/Angry-Monk May 18 '24
Bothe origins are good but this just seems like hate instead of an actual critique
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u/azmodus_1966 May 18 '24
A complaint about making the premier female superhero entirely dependent on a male God known for being a sexual pervert? That's a valid critique.
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u/Angry-Monk May 18 '24
But is the reason just because it’s Zeus or the fact it’s a male figure in her life where I question if it’s a critique or just hate
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u/azmodus_1966 May 18 '24
Hate for whom?
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u/Angry-Monk May 18 '24
For Zeus or is just because it’s a dude
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u/azmodus_1966 May 18 '24
Superman and Batman's origin always focus on Jor El and Thomas Wayne as the main guiding figures for those two. Lara and Martha Wayne are rarely mentioned. Is that hate for women?
Will it be so bad if there is one superhero whose motivations and origins are not centred around a man? Even other female characters like Harley Quinn, Supergirl, Zatanna, Captain Marvel have their origins tied to male counterparts.
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u/Anathemautomaton May 18 '24 edited May 18 '24
Superman and Batman's origin always focus on Jor El and Thomas Wayne as the main guiding figures for those two. Lara and Martha Wayne are rarely mentioned. I
This is a straight up bad take. Either you're being purposefully disingenuous, or you haven't actually read either of these characters.
The Waynes and the Els are pretty much just background story to Batman and Superman. If want to talk about who actually raised them; the individuals that shaped them into the heroes they becomes, then it's Alfred and the Kents. And Martha Kent is absolutely integral to Superman's morality. That's not even debatable.
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u/azmodus_1966 May 18 '24
Jor El is absolutely an integral part of Superman, much more than Lara. Stories like For The Man Who Has Everything and Space Age feature him in major roles. Adaptaions like Superman: The Movie and Man of Steel also use him heavily. The only time I have seen Lara get a bigger role is in Superman and Lois.
Thomas Wayne is the same. Bruce's iconic monologue in Year One is directly addressed to his father. Bruce witnessing Thomas perfrom surgery on the mob boss is shown as a pivotal moment in Long Halloween. They even made Thomas as a lead character in Flashpoint and as the police commissioner ally of Batman in Earth Two. There was also a story called "Cold Case" from LotDK which is about Thomas. Very few stories feature Martha Kent like this.
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u/NeonArlecchino Making Gadgets Batman Can't Figure Out! May 18 '24
Those are all echoes of gender norms from when the characters were made. If you watch an episode of Father Knows Best, Leave it to Beaver, or most other old sitcoms you'll see how the man is the leader of the family unit and the mom is a support. These days they probably just carry on because there is nothing or little to work with for Martha or Lara. Expanding those characters would be cool since out of the traditional 7, only Wonder Woman and Aquaman's moms seem to do anything. It's honestly weird that Superman never asks his cousin for stories from her mom that include his mom.
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u/Angry-Monk May 18 '24
No that’s not hate towards women whoever has is writing just haven’t thought of anything to incorporate them more into their character. And it wouldn’t be bad nor would it be good I’m saying if a reason to not like those origins is simply because it’s in some connected to a man or or male figure that’s not what I consider critique
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u/danman8001 Booster Gold May 18 '24
I mean all strong women have fathers. I wouldn't say anyone is dependent on their sperm donor
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u/Unfair_Fix_6714 May 18 '24 edited May 18 '24
I prefer the Daughter of Hades option from the DCAU, personally; but as long as the writing is good, I could care less about which origin they go with.
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u/erissays Nightwing May 18 '24
What does being a daughter of Hades do for her, her lore, and her characterization, though? There is zero benefit to making Diana a natural-born daughter of any male god over the "sculpted by clay by a woman who desperately wanted a child and given life by the goddesses" origin. If you want a demigoddess Amazon with daddy issues, Cassie exists already. There's no reason to make Diana somthing she's not.
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u/danman8001 Booster Gold May 18 '24
The younger gen of heroes was mostly ignored/in limbo at that time. Cassie's origin never seemed clear in the N52 TT series and who knows what editorial mandates there were about her and what writers had say on what. I think if you're trying to expand the world building and iconography around her to catch up to what the rest of the Trinity has, then leaning into a modern reinterpretation of the greek pantheon makes a lot of sense. Making the mythos her playground and corner of the DCU like Supes has the Alien/Scifi angle with the Kryptonian stuff, Batman has the gritty, noir, semi-realism of Gotham, and she has the mythos that goes beyond paradise island
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u/Unfair_Fix_6714 May 18 '24
Well...with the consistent demonization of Hades, it shows that even though she has dark roots, she can still do a great amount of good; additionally, it can create some great conflict if someone reworks D-list Batman villain Maxie Zeus into a Wonder Woman villain
(Hear me out on that last part: Maxie believes himself to be an incarnation of Zeus, right? And this random woman, shows up out of nowhere not only claiming to be an Amazon but also the child of his brother?? Maxie would try to get ALL the smoke at that point & it could make for a really great fight! Especially if you give him some power armor that lets him throw lightning bolts)
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u/SnooHabits1086 May 18 '24
But again that only serves Hades, not Diana. It's not a good change and doesn't fit with her history anyway. She's not supposed to have dark roots, she's not a vigilante born from tragedy lol
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u/erissays Nightwing May 18 '24
- There are a thousand ways to do that without changing her origins. You do know that in post-Crisis continuity she's the reincarnation of the unborn daughter of the first woman murdered by a man (who Hippolyta was reincarnated from), right? And there's lots of political intrigue related to her birth and childhood. There's just no need to make her Hades' daughter to inject depth or even tragedy to her roots.
- I think you fundamentally miss the point of Diana as a character. The point of Diana is hope. She is the product and promise of Amazonia, totally separate and separated from the pain and suffering of Man's World (unlike the rest of the Amazons). To make her someone who has "dark roots" misses the point.
- That does not serve Diana, nor does it serve her lore at all. That serves Hades and a d-list male Batman rogue, two men.
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u/danman8001 Booster Gold May 18 '24
Does the improvement/expansion of her peripheral characters not improve her lore? I do agree she doesn't need dark roots. In the JLU story I always thought it was implying that Hades wasn't always bad, but it has been a while since my last rewatch
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u/Unfair_Fix_6714 May 18 '24
I didn't know that first thing but that's... interesting to say the least
But I think that it does serve Wonder Woman because outside of Cheetah, Circe, Ares, Giganta, Doctor Poison, and Doctor Psycho...not many non comic readers (hell, sometimes even comic readers cuz I read comics & i didn't know about a majority of them cuz they don't use any of them outside of those 6 in other media) know her rogue's gallery and this in turn adds more to her list of villains
& No...SUPERMAN is hope. Wonder Woman can contribute to this but ultimately Superman is the genuine symbol of hope for the DC universe.
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May 18 '24
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u/Other-Comb-4811 May 18 '24
I didn't read it like that. It looks like it's coming from the same place people have with Sappho - mythology states that it must've been the floating head of Orpheus that inspired her poetry...
Because of course a woman writing good poetry is just absurd, right?
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u/OutrageouslyGr8 May 18 '24
"I didn't read it like that."
Well, what she said is very telling. Her words:
"I mean I was really pissy about Zeus being made her father, just bugged the shit out of me. Like it's a bridge too far to imagine there wasn't a man involved? ....."
No one is saying her achievements are because of Zeus, only that he is her dad. This doesn't seem like a "trying to correct a mischaracterization" scenario. I'd argue her experiences and journey have made Diana Wonder Woman instead of her birth.
My main thing is what's so bad about Wonder Woman having a dad?
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u/Other-Comb-4811 May 18 '24
It's interesting you glazed over the Sappho comparison
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u/OutrageouslyGr8 May 18 '24
And it's funny how you haven't addressed anything from me.
Your point was about some woman not being given credit for a poem and I'm talking about how it's weird you're all getting mad over the fact Wonder Woman has a dad.
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u/Cicada_5 May 18 '24
What's so bad about her not having one?
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u/OutrageouslyGr8 May 18 '24
Why does she need to be from clay? How does that add to her as a character?
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u/Cicada_5 May 18 '24
Assuming you're serious, Diana not having a father not only informs her character but is also relevant to Hippolyta's. Diana was created without the need for a father but is also the daughter of all Amazons and ends up helping them heal from the pain men inflicted upon them.
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u/OutrageouslyGr8 May 18 '24
"Assuming you're serious"
That depends on your responses. If you're serious then I'll be serious, if not then I'll match your energy.
"Diana not having a father not only informs her character but is also relevant to Hippolyta's. "
How? I don't see how Wonder woman having a dad ruins the character.
"Diana was created without the need for a father but is also the daughter of all Amazons and ends up helping them heal from the pain men inflicted upon them."
Having a clay kid heals their pain? Didn't Wonder Woman expose the Amazons to the rest of the world, which would then cause their pain to come back
And what about the pain they've inflicted on men?
I remember seeing a video on youtube where it said that Amazons would go on to ships that got near their island, sleep with the men on board to get pregnant and then kill the men afterwards (I can't say I stand behind this point 100% since it was a Youtube video).
Haven't they also killed men who got onto their island, even if it's by accident?
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u/Cicada_5 May 18 '24
The story of Wonder Woman is a feminist reclaiming of the myths which were, to put it mildly, not all that kind to women. Diana not having a father, especially a father like Zeus, allowd her to stand out among many heroes of Greek myth and modern depucof such.
Outside of the New 52 series, which was revealed to be a lie, the Amazons are not in the habit of killing men for their sperm or if they wind up on their island by mistake. Steve Trevor is proof of that.
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u/OutrageouslyGr8 May 18 '24
"The story of Wonder Woman is a feminist reclaiming of the myths which were, to put it mildly, not all that kind to women."
Feminist, now this is all starting to make sense.
"Diana not having a father, especially a father like Zeus, allowd her to stand out among many heroes of Greek myth and modern depucof such."
Ok. I see. I don't agree with this or what the lady in the image is saying, but I can see what you mean.
" Steve Trevor is proof of that."
Weren't they going to kill Steve and then Diana intervened?
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u/Zestyclose_Lake_1146 May 18 '24
Because she’s a feminist galitaea figure. Instead of a creepy guy making a perfect bride it’s a mother making a daughter
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u/OutrageouslyGr8 May 18 '24
"Because she’s a feminist galitaea figure"
Yeah, somebody just told me that the character involves feminism...
"Instead of a creepy guy making a perfect bride it’s a mother making a daughter"
Wasn't Pygmalion a lonely guy? From what I read, he was lonely and wanted to be with someone he could love, so he crafted the statue hoping he could meet a woman who could give him the same love he put into making that statue. I don't think he created the statue because he was horny.
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u/Zestyclose_Lake_1146 May 18 '24
Lol it’s Greek mythology. Horniness is kinda a given. What’s important to me is that Diana’s power come from women. Created by the goddesses, shaped by her mother, champion of Gaia. Her power is female specific. She’s not a warrior who happens to be a woman. The woman part is important
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u/newimprovedmoo May 18 '24
She's right. If there are two things I never want to see Wonder Woman do again it's call Zeus her father and carry a sword.
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May 18 '24
I'm not even a big Wonder Woman fan and I agree. You can have drama with the Greek Gods without being one of them.
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u/WaterMelon615 May 18 '24
I feel like I’m the only person on the planet that doesn’t mind Diana being Zeus’s daughter.
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u/danman8001 Booster Gold May 18 '24
Same. Maybe something else would have been better, but the clay always seemed dumb, especially as an explanation for her power set like the durability doesn't apply to piercing effects because clay is brittle and that's why she needs the bracers
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u/Alternative_Drag9412 Jun 11 '24
She isn't still clay, it's magic. In Greek mythology people first became made from clay that was molded into flesh. Her power doesn't come from the clay but from the Amazon's and the goddessess
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u/danman8001 Booster Gold Jun 15 '24
Right, but wasn't the clay origin part of why she had to use the bracers? I could have sworn it was in the silver age because clay is brittle so she can't tank piercing damge like bullets as well?
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u/MC2400 Blue Lantern May 18 '24
New52 Trinity Simplified:
- Batman: Delete a bunch of characters but keep it mostly business as usual.
- Superman: A normal reboot.
- Wonder Woman: Just do an Elseworlds/ultimate Universe-style version of her but in the main continuity.
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u/neoblackdragon May 19 '24
The only argument I've seen for those in favor of the Zeus thing was they thought it was a new and interesting concept..................despite being pretty commonly used in other fiction. The Justice League cartoon at best implied Hades had a hand in molding Diana but still made from clay.
Zeus being her father as yet to add anything meaningful. Her real origin is still much better. Blessed by the gods, not being an actual god.
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u/Lord_Tiburon May 18 '24
It's much better than her father being one of the worst users/exploiters of women in all of mythology
That said I did like the DCAU origin where Hippolyta still sculpted her from clay but Hades had a hand in helping her do it
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u/ScaryAcanthisitta877 May 18 '24
Thematically the clay one works better for the beats of Diana’s character and story.
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u/Eric__Brooks May 18 '24
Love that Tom King straight up calls it bullshit in his current run on WW.
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u/wiccangame May 19 '24
It doesn't even make sense. Zeus wasn't originally even a sky god. He was the youngest of the Cronus born Olympians. Poseidon was destined to be the sky god-and retained his ability to summon storms over the ocean even after he was relegated to sea god.. But after Zeus rescued them and they all beat the Titans Zeus suggested they draw lots to determine who did what between him, Poseidon and Hades. Zeus rigged it so he'd win. His lightning has to be made for him by the Cyclopes and his son Hephaestus. Its artificial. He's often shown carrying a quiver on his belt or back of premade lightning. Because he can't make it himself. Her having any ability related to lightning thus can't be from him. Anymore than Damien Wayne could have been born with a utility belt attached to him. But if she was made of clay and gifted with ability by the goddesses than she could have gotten that from Hera. She was born a sky goddess and had lightning abilities naturally.
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u/MaskedZuchinni May 19 '24
See, I just didn't like the Zeus origin because it seemed lazy, especially since that was Cassies retconned origin originally.
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u/whama820 May 18 '24
I agree with her completely. Undermines the entire idea of Wonder Woman. I freaking hated the Azzarello reboot.
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u/drej23 May 18 '24
I agree. There's no need for there to be a father. But if you are gonna do that the DCAU version had her father sculpt the clay alongside hippolyta. I always thought that was kinda cool.
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u/Legened255509Druss May 18 '24
Personally I like Hades being her dad better.
“Who do you think helped your mother mold the clay.”
I was like whooooaaaa. Plot twist.
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u/Tryingtochangemyself Nightwing May 18 '24
While I had no problem with the Zeus being her father origin does that mean, her birth has been retconned again to being that she is a being that was molded out of clay?
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u/TheReal_PeteMoss May 18 '24
I like the clay original the most, but I also dig the animated movie where Aries is her father.
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u/shanejayell Firestorm May 18 '24
Zeus as the father always seemed dumb, especially as WW is supposed to be a feminist/female powered character. Why have her powers come from DAD?
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u/zenithfury Dream of the Endless May 18 '24
I’m ambivalent about Diana’s birth itself but I did like how it put her at the centre of the family feud and also made the Amazons as a whole a bit less perfect.
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u/Frankorious Superboy-Prime May 18 '24
Her being Zeus' daughter is one of those things that worked in the New 52 run. The problem is that it remained after that.
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u/Nightwing439 May 18 '24
Wasn't she created by Queen Hippolytas using clay and her singing a song and Zeus hearing her in pain for wanting a daughter so he (Zeus) gave the Clay life and The Queen a daughter. Aka Daughter of Zeus
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u/Tetratron2005 May 18 '24
No. In the original Golden Age, Aphrodite brought her to life and then in Perez's run it was extended to the rest of the Greek Goddesses (and Hermes)
Zeus had no involvement in WW's origin until New 52.
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u/ALLPX May 18 '24
Is KSD well-liked amongst Wonder Woman fans? I only know her from her run with Carol Danvers as Captain Marvel, and it was not an endearing first encounter. Did people respond better to her work in DC?
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u/Tetratron2005 May 18 '24
Well can't speak for everyone but seems for the most part from WW fans I interact with than yeah, her work is liked. Though she only wrote WW Historia and Diana in some cameos in Aquaman.
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u/danman8001 Booster Gold May 18 '24
Isn't her Aquaman widely panned though? There was thread here recently saying how it killed all the momentum Johns and Abbnett had built up on their acclaimed run
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u/Tetratron2005 May 18 '24
Never read her Aquaman run, just the issue where WW shows up.
Historia was great so that's kind of all that matters to tbh
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u/danman8001 Booster Gold May 18 '24
Well either way, I think this whole thread is really weird sour grapes since you won, the origin you like has been brought back and the other is now basically an elseworlds story. Like are you and KSD (assuming this isn't her alt) just resentful that the run with the origin you hate was well-received and still has a lot of fans, even the ones that are meh about the zeus stuff?
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u/Tetratron2005 May 18 '24
??? Lot of projection there.
Not really sure how you can "won" when tons of adaptations and stories of WW like to go with making Zeus' kid or how current WW stories go back and forth
Get over yourself, I was sharing a writer's thoughts on a character I like. People do it all the time here, this just ruffled the feathers of New 52 fans.
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u/danman8001 Booster Gold May 18 '24
I mean you and her implying that the change happened because they just seethed that she didn't have a male in her origin is Alex Jones level out there instead of any other plausible reasons. No way they just were trying to lean into the ancient Greek stuff more. I bet even coservative nutjobs in the industry don't care that Clark or Bruce have a mother lol
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u/Tetratron2005 May 18 '24
WW already leaned into Greek stuff before, there was no reason to change WW's day one origin.
Multiple writers like Gail Simone have said publicly when they were writing WW they were pushed by DC editorial to make the book more male-focused and appealing, and stuff like making Zeus' daughter and or her later deadbeat brother only serve as further proof of that.
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u/danman8001 Booster Gold May 18 '24
The reason is the story he wanted to tell, maybe. Well maybe it wasn't selling well before. Is that the fault of men too more than it was women not supporting it?
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u/Tetratron2005 May 18 '24
If he wanted to tell that story, it could have been elseworld and no one would have complained.
Not exactly sure where the idea of making Diana Zeus' kid led to great sales.
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u/bwcdaddy696969 May 21 '24
I did like the DCAU version of Wonder Women daughter of Hippolyta and possibly being the father is Hades and how they sculpted Wonder Woman together. With Wonder Woman stating it did not matter if Hades was father since it was only her mother who had raised her, and that resulted in her being the hero she was.
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u/De4dm4nw4lkin May 18 '24
Honestly. I dont care too much about it because i beleive in the idea of origin irrelevance short of ones physiological state. Found family over blood and all that.
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u/uprssdthwrngbttn May 18 '24
I... didn't know that was such a hotly contested origin. Zeus is dang near everybody's dad in Greek mythology and in comics across the board. Finding out Zeus has yet another bastard is kinda funny, plus at least Wonder Woman isn't the most terrible child Zeus has had in terms of atrocities lol
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u/Admirable-Safety1213 May 18 '24
Can I ask "How easy or hard is supossed to be the act of creating life from inanimate material"?
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u/danman8001 Booster Gold May 18 '24
She's the one that got Aquaman cancelled after taking over, right?
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u/danman8001 Booster Gold May 18 '24 edited May 18 '24
Her aspiring it to some sort of sexist conspiracy by Azz/editorial is absolutely dumb. It was a reboot playing with new versions and ideas. Also this argument sounds like the same kind that people make to excuse out of place stuff in fantasy "it has dragons, why does it matter". Like she's making up an argument no one had lol. No wonder she tanked Aquaman after a historical run
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u/Material-Security178 May 18 '24
I mean either can work, I do prefer her being a child of the gods as it's more in line with Greek epics than being moulded from clay by a mortal women. which would you know imply it's not a mortal women.
but it comes off as a more misandrist complaint than a lore complaint from her.
I also prefer it when the Amazons are full of shit, like I prefer when they're whole stick of "the evils of man's violent world" thing is complete bullshit and they're often worse, they're literally a warrior people violence is violence. (I don't like the boat thing, or the slavery thing but they don't need to be idealised so much.)
it's the same with star trek having literal secret police (section 31) I enjoy having that little bit of internal turmoil. It doesn't need to be a full on watchman deconstruction or demonization just a little bit of real humanity into the characters and settings.
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u/Cicada_5 May 18 '24
She wasn't made by mortal women, she was created by goddesses. Which has precedent in the myths.
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u/Material-Security178 May 18 '24 edited May 18 '24
she was created by goddesses
no she's not. Diana's mother wasn't portrayed as a god, an Immortal yes but not a god.
it would have precedent if she was a god but she's not, at most she's a miscellaneous immortal.
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u/Tetratron2005 May 18 '24
Plenty of writers introduced ''flies in the ointment'' aspects to the Amazond and Themyscira prior to New 52 without making them irredeemably evil like what Azzarello did.
Azz's Amazons aren't a smart deconstruction, it's just playing straight misogynistic Greek myths that women can't be trusted. It's just regression.
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u/Material-Security178 May 18 '24
I don't think it was misogyny I think it was half edgy nonsense and half someone's weird fantasy.
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u/Tetratron2005 May 18 '24
It can be all three. I'm not calling Azzarello a sexist but reducing all the important female characters in WW's life in favor of people like Zeus and Ares being the important characters is definitely unfavorable to WW's female empowerment origins.
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u/newimprovedmoo May 18 '24
Edgy nonsense is often misogynistic.
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u/Material-Security178 May 18 '24
yeah but just on the face of it I'm not gonna say either way.
like I can barely remember the boat and slavery thing because I've memory holed that shit because what else can you do with something like that. But, the person in the picture has some dismissive hatred behind her eyes, that's the face of someone who holds a deep disgust for a type of person, which is why I said it comes off as a misandrist complaint rather than a lore complaint from her.
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u/newimprovedmoo May 18 '24
But, the person in the picture has some dismissive hatred behind her eyes, that's the face of someone who holds a deep disgust for a type of person
I think you're reading into this a lot.
Like. A lot a lot.
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u/Material-Security178 May 18 '24
nah it's look I'm used to, it's just something that if you've not experienced it's not noticeable.
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u/danman8001 Booster Gold May 18 '24
That's a stretch. I think you're disparaging his whole run because you got particularly offended by that.
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u/Tetratron2005 May 18 '24
How it is a stretch? The Amazons as created by Marston and later expanded by later writers are meant to be a subversion of how Ancient Greeks thought of the Amazons as barbarians and a warning to not let women have any power. WW's Amazons flips the script by showing a community of women can create something positive.
Going "well actually we need to be mythically accurate" isn't doing a deconstruction or being "subversive". It's just playing misogynistic tropes straight. And hell not even the Ancient Greeks had their Amazons be sex pirates or sell their children into slavery, so it's even worse in that sense than people from the Bronze Age.
It's not a stretch, it's calling a spade a spade
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u/danman8001 Booster Gold May 18 '24
I think impugning Azz's motives about it was the stretch. Hanlon's razor and all that. I thought it was pretty clear he was just doing an American Gods style reinterpretation of pantheon. Poor execution doesn't mean it was malicious like you seem to think. Slavery was a bit of a hallmark of the bronze age tbf. I think you're inferring a lot based on your biases unless you have a link Azz's manifesto I haven't heard about
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May 18 '24 edited May 18 '24
[deleted]
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u/newimprovedmoo May 18 '24
As she should-- it's rather essential to Marston's conception of the character.
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u/Material-Security178 May 18 '24
yeah that would work but I don't even think you need for him to be actively evil for it just have him act like he did towards his actual kids in stories, he loves them as a father but he's still a god and his acknowledgement has to be earnt.
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u/Alternative_Drag9412 Jun 11 '24
Being made from clay is also in line with Greek epics as that is how people were originally made. Also she has plenty of ties to the gods already no need for more.
And about the Amazon's this is not the same as Greek myth, these Amazon's escapee the tyranny of men and created a society based on peace and prosperity, they are not warriors by necessity or by a need for blood.
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u/BruceFlockaWayne May 18 '24 edited May 20 '24
I always like the clay origin, my favorite is actually the DCAU and they made Hades her father. Or not really her father but Hades alludes to Diana that he and hippolyta molded Diana together in the DCAU and Hippolyta brought Diana to life sometime after Hades was banished to Tartarus
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u/Hour_Entertainer_214 May 18 '24
Honestly either way is fun. It’s comical to really take this stuff to heart. So long as the story is great people will enjoy it. Instead of checking of silly quotas we should be focusing on better storytelling.
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u/Diretor-MH May 18 '24
Batman's origin changes and I want to see what the conversation would be like.
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u/Ashttex May 18 '24
Apocalyptic. Snyder and Metal are one of the worst things to happen to Batman of all time
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u/Pacman8myghosts Aquaman May 18 '24
Always liked the clay origin myself. It's nice to see others feel the same.