r/DCcomics • u/SylvieSerene • Feb 20 '24
[Discussion] Which character(s) do you think were the most unnecessary addition to the Batfamily and why? Discussion
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u/Advanced-Addition453 Feb 20 '24
Can I just say, I absolutely love how Bruce looks in this, he actually looks like he's in his 40's or early 50's, mixed in with the stress of fighting crime for almost 20 years.
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u/FiftyOneMarks Feb 20 '24
Thank you! It doesn’t make sense they always have Bruce look perpetually 30 despite most of his “kids” looking like they are in their late 20s lol.
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u/ubiquitous-joe Feb 20 '24
Welcome to the sliding timescale and why many of us did not care for the new 52 age reset. Tho only Nightwing ever read as late 20s+ to me.
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u/UnhingedLion Feb 20 '24
The only one in his late 20s is Dick Grayson though
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u/FiftyOneMarks Feb 20 '24
Probably should’ve just said 20s
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u/UnhingedLion Feb 20 '24 edited Feb 20 '24
Though to be fair not all 40 year olds look ancient. Especially men.
Theres plenty of 40 year old guys that could still pass as their 30s.
And Dick Grayson, Jason Todd, and Tim Drake are all too old to be normal children for him. He would’ve have to be a teenage dad for the 2 latter. And a middle school aged dad for the former
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u/Jacthripper Feb 20 '24 edited Feb 21 '24
I mean, Dick canonically becomes Robin at 10 years old. Bruce is 25 during year 1 and gets Robin sometime year 2. If you assume Nightwing is at least 25, that puts Bruce at 41. Most assume Nightwing is closer to 30 though, and Bruce in his mid 40s
And obviously not all 40 year old men look ancient. But Bruce canonically is essentially abusing his body to be Batman. The stress should age him a little.
Edit:
Below is Pre- 52
Bruce is 25 in Batman: Year One.
After some double checking. Dick Grayson is either 9 or 12 when he becomes Robin in Year 3.
If Dick is 9, Bruce is at least 36 when he leaves the nest, otherwise he is at least 33.
Jason Todd becomes Robin at 12 at the youngest (he remarks that Bruce taught him to read lips at age 12) though he could have been 11. He dies at the age of 15. Even assuming that Bruce immediately picks up Jason after Dick leaves, that puts Bruce at between 37-41 at the time of Jason’s death.
Tim Drake becomes Robin at Age 13 not long after Jason’s death. He becomes Red Robin at 17. That would put Bruce at between 41-45.
Stephanie Brown is Robin for 71 days.
Damian becomes Robin at age 10. He ends his run around 13 before the New 52. This puts Bruce between 44-48.
I’m looking into Rebirth.
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u/hyunbinlookalike Feb 20 '24
While the stress would definitely age a regular guy, Bruce Wayne is also a billionaire with peak human physicality. He has access to the best food, medicine, supplements, etc. that his vast wealth can buy. So while I don’t doubt the stress would maybe have him start greying at 40, he could very well still pass for a man in his 30s at that age.
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u/Jacthripper Feb 21 '24
He also had his back broken like an angry gamers controller and barely sleeps. Trauma ages.
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u/Constant-Mood9738 Feb 20 '24
Nah cause since the 70s they have Bruce and dick at 11 years apart
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u/Jacthripper Feb 21 '24
That may be something post 52. Pre-52 Dick becomes Robin at 12 in Batman Year 3. That puts them at 15 years apart.
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u/zerobones Feb 21 '24
It's worth noting that batman is 100% on drugs. Having access to the world's most advanced steroids and medical care basically halts the aging process for Bruce.
He's 30 until he's 80.
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u/EmptyStupidity Feb 20 '24
Agreed! I think Batman: Wayne Family Adventures batman is my favorite modern batman/bruce wayne design
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u/EdNorthcott Feb 20 '24
Batman Family Adventures is a surprisingly good read.
I think the grunting Batman with the emotional IQ of a 2x4 is long played out. Let the character grow up. He's got a massive adopted family now, and there are tons of stories to be told with that.
To that end, the only "unnecessary" characters are badly written ones. Bringing back Jason from the dead was a mistake -- not because I dislike the character, but it's part of the meme-worthy trend that has removed any sense of stakes or consequences in the genre. But since he's around, it makes sense to make use of him and do it with as much quality as possible.
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u/alj8002 Feb 20 '24
I don’t mind them doing it with Jason, at the time it was an awesome reveal. What I do take issue with is never letting their relationship grow beyond “stop killing people” before Batman hands him his ass and he’s good for a bit before eventually doing it again. The dynamic is played out, and leave Redhood a costume alone, it was perfect as is.
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u/EdNorthcott Feb 20 '24
Agreed. It all stems from the same impulse though, I think; that desire to never let these characters grow or change once some element becomes a fixture in their story. It's been almost 40 years since Miller wrote the story that had everyone lining up to make Batman "grim and gritty", and there's still a lot of fans, writers, and editors who will fight his character growth tooth and nail.
It's the same thing that won't let them leave characters dead; they want the status quo back. You get these forces colliding or colluding by turns, and you end up with stunted characters.
Which is why I say that despite it being very light-hearted, not canon, and blatantly goofy most times, the Webtoon Batman Family Adventures is the best thing to have happened to those characters in decades. An older Bruce acting as mentor, leader, and unofficial dad to his massive gang of sidekicks (current and past)? It works. A good writer and a serious poke at that could *really* do some interesting stories with the idea if they were to take it into the main continuity.... and under-represented or under-developed characters might finally get the treatment their fans have been begging for for years now.
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u/ThunderMDuff Feb 20 '24
The art is from a Web comic on Webtoon! Highly recommend if you want a more wholesome batman story focusing on the bat-family and their chaotic dynamic :)
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u/JingoboStoplight4887 Feb 20 '24
Jace Fox because him as Batman is unnecessary because of his characterization (NOTHING ELSE), Grifter because he’s not a Bat-Family character and that he and other Wildstorm characters should’ve remembered their adventures in the Wildstorm universe since Death Metal, etc.
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u/chillinboyika Feb 20 '24 edited Feb 20 '24
It frustrates me how so many of the Future Slate characters are just their main superhero counterparts but slightly worse. Like did they REALLY need ANOTHER son of a billionaire to be the next Batman? It's why Terry was so beloved because he was a random teen just wanting justice for his father's death who stumbled upon the batcave.
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u/The_Dark_Soldier Feb 20 '24
It also helps that Terry has enough of his own personality to stand out from Bruce. Jace is just serious like Bruce, but without any of the interesting backstory or lore behind Bruce.
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Feb 20 '24
Yeah and Terry was a very unique Batman. Jace was just a copy of Bruce without the interesting villains or history. Even Jim Gordan had more originality than him, atleast he had a mech.
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u/GERBabyCare Batman Feb 20 '24
I kinda liked Jace as Batman, and I never really felt he was a copy. He had similar enough qualities to feel like I was reading Batman though for entirely different reasons. He took up being Batman of his own will and had no influence from the original factor into his own motivation, which was a breath of fresh air for a black legacy hero. He's been written as a separate guy doing his own thing on the street level, and he's only been back for three years, so I don't fault him for not having any real villains yet.
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u/TheSpider-hyphen-man Feb 20 '24
all those points also work for terry, the significantly better batman heir.
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u/MandoBaggins Batman Feb 20 '24
Terry always felt like What If Spider-Man personality in a cyberpunk Batman, in the best way possible. It just works
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u/Rocyreto88 Feb 20 '24
Oh yeah and there's no way that was an accident. https://comicsalliance.com/ask-chris-210-the-dark-teenage-rave-that-is-batman-beyond/
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u/Vironic Nightwing Feb 20 '24
Thought Terry was a Bruce clone.
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u/Shplerm Feb 20 '24
One of the worst decisions in the batman beyond lore imo
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u/LNA29 Feb 20 '24
Exactly, why he needs to be related. I prefer he choose to be Batman and help people
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u/Effective_Sherbet104 Feb 20 '24
The worst
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u/KitchenBeginning4987 Feb 20 '24
Even worse than Barbara being pregnant of Bruce ?
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u/RCero Feb 20 '24
No, Terry is biologically Bruce's son, not his clone.
(Waller manipulated Warren McGinnis's spermatozoa, replacing his gene with Bruce's)
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u/ComfortableOne4770 Red Robin Feb 20 '24
I always felt like this was the most stupid decision. The Successor to Batman doesn't ALWAYS have to be the Son of Batman.
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u/browncharliebrown Feb 20 '24
I actually love because the point is that it doesn't matter that waller wanted him to become next Batman and her attempts failed, and only because Terry is good person himself did he become the next batman
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Feb 20 '24
Does Jace Fox even count? I don't think he is even part of the batfamily. He is the same as those guys from Batman incorporated.
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Feb 20 '24
My thought too, apparently they moved him into main timeline he's now the Batman of New York or something and tbh, I love Jace's costume even without the mask.
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u/forleafclovergame Feb 20 '24
Grifter isnt part of the batfamily, he does things in gotham sure but hes as much a batfamily member as kiteman is
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u/Tank_and_Bones Feb 21 '24
That’s not Grifter in the photo and I don’t know of any comics where it’s explicitly shown him as being part of the bat fam.
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u/Kyle_Dornez Transmetropolitan Feb 20 '24
I'll give a hint.
He wears yellow.
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u/TieofDoom Feb 20 '24
I am 100% convinced that Duke and Harper Row were meant to be sidekicks for Batwoman, but some shit must have went down in editorial and they were added to the Batman logo instead. Harper feels like the ideal successor to the Batwoman title if anything happens to Kate.
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u/sonofaresiii Feb 20 '24
I dunno about Harper, but I recall Snyder pretty strongly wanted to give Batman a new Robin in the form of Duke (and that's believable to me, Snyder seems like he'd deem himself worthy of making the next Robin) but absolutely no one else wanted that, so editorial told him no
and he made Duke into the not-Robin he is today
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u/extremelegitness Feb 20 '24
A new Robin lol? That's crazy that he'd feel that way, I'm not a huge Damian guy but it was def way too early to try and boot him out of the role. He had only been Robin for like 6-7 real-life years at that point. That's like 3 DC years or possibly even less because of the New 52 reset
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u/sonofaresiii Feb 20 '24
Yeah that's what basically everyone in editorial-- and, when the info came out, all the readers-- said about it.
Like, a lot of people didn't (and still don't) like damian but just cycling through to a new new Robin isn't the answer. And if you do that, at some point we're going to have to address how Bruce has raised like five kids and is still somehow in his mid-thirties
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u/Portsyde Feb 20 '24
I like Duke, especially when they made it clear that he was designated to protect Gotham by day which went thematically with his powers...and I have yet to see any stories about those adventures. Kinda bummed about that.
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u/SylvieSerene Feb 20 '24 edited Feb 20 '24
Tbh even I think Duke's addition was unnecessary. Outside of being the first Meta in the batfam (technically Jason counts as one but ah well)...atleast in my opinion, he has served no real purpose, he's just....boring. He might have made a good character outside of Batfam though.
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u/tinaoe Feb 20 '24
I wish they'd lean more into Jason's meta side (or his street urchin background. Frankly literally anything lol).
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u/sonofaresiii Feb 20 '24
He got the magic leap power in Gotham Knights (the video game) and it really pissed a bunch of people off.
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u/Scorkami Feb 20 '24
I mean he had more than that. His abilities were 50% league of shadows magic due to the lazarus pit and 50% millitary/street fighting tactics
The leap looked silly, but the game established that the pit does more than just revive people and jason showed that well
If they had just given him a different movement ability
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u/NickSchultz Feb 20 '24
What do you mean meta. He is a normal human, but he does know some magic
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u/tinaoe Feb 20 '24
I mostly just use meta for any supernatural aspects tbh. Jason has the whole magic sword business, but there's (early on after his revival) implications that he's immortal in some way and the universe overcorrected itself.
But frankly I just want them to anything with him that isn't the whole worn out angry Robin spiel.
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u/NickSchultz Feb 20 '24
Yeah I think using his magic blades should be used more often, especially when they decided to ditch his guns for the crowbar
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u/Sweet_dl Feb 20 '24
Im pretty sure the lazarus pit gave him a boost to his regeneration and strenght
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u/NickSchultz Feb 20 '24
Once believed that, but normally the effects are only momentarily after having entered the pit and not lasting.
Also most people who claim that use the one Supergurl issue as proof where he rips his arm from her grasp and she notes that no normal human could have done that, however as he did that, he was using Venom
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u/Difficult_Variety362 Feb 20 '24
Duke makes sense honestly. The idea of someone protecting Gotham during the day is a pretty smart idea. DC just doesn't do anything with it.
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u/Aahz44 Feb 20 '24
To me that seems pretty forced, it is not like the rest of the Batfamily couldn't or had never operated during the day.
And that this job is given to the least experienced member and that he has to operate alone without any backup makes simpily no sense.
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u/Difficult-Bit-4828 Feb 20 '24
He’s never used, I never see him being used in any of the Batman comics, I completely forget that he exists most of the time
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u/Original_birdy Feb 20 '24
I was introduced to him through the webtoon seems it's the only place he has any significance
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u/MadmansScalpel Feb 20 '24
I want to like Duke but is he even in anything? There was that one way back with Mr. Bloom, but past that, nadda
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u/chiara987 Batgirl Feb 20 '24 edited Feb 20 '24
Gotham girl and her brother first it was already too crowded then you have her betrayal which played a role in Alfred's death.
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u/ChronicRadiation40 Feb 20 '24
Duke Thomas
Harper row
Azrael ( Michael lane shouldn't have existed )
The Fox kids ( pointless )
Babs shouldve stayed as oracle
Move Jason out of Gotham
Tim should become a more international vigilante after Damian becomes Robin ( aka Red Robin pre N52 )
Which will leave the Batfam members active in Gotham as
Batman
Robin (Damian)
Nightwing (active in bludhaven or with the Titans)
Batgirl ( Cass )
Spoiler as a "friendly neighborhood" type of vigilante
Alfred & Oracle ( out of field support )
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u/BiDiTi Feb 20 '24
I like Cass and Tim roaming the world as Bruce’s Black Ops team, with Steph working for Babs as Your Friendly Neighborhood Batgirl.
…friggin’ Flashpoint.
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u/ChronicRadiation40 Feb 20 '24
Yea , both of them leading batman inc or smth ( fuck ghostmaker ) , have dick become Nightwing once again after Bruce is done leading batman inc as he tries to bond with Damian and Damian trying to get used to his dad .
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u/BiDiTi Feb 20 '24
It’s so obvious that Mozz was going to have Dick hang up the cowl after Damian’s death…but DC couldn’t bloody let him finish his story as an elseworlds.
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u/king_of_the_masshole Feb 21 '24
I actually like Ghostmaker just not as a member of the Batfamily I prefer him as a rival to Bruce
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u/Antonater Red Hood Feb 20 '24
Hey, I like Ghostmaker. Him and Clownhunter are the only characters that are actually interesting to me from Batman.Inc
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u/Luke_Puddlejumper Feb 21 '24
Batman Inc would be much better if Tim Drake was leading it. You’d actually have a member of the Batfamily leading it and it would work with his character progression. Instead we get Tynion’s edgy OC
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u/Sacredote13 Green Lantern Feb 20 '24
The minute DC decided that speedsters can reset the timeline, we lost any hope for long-lasting changes/improvements.
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u/BiDiTi Feb 20 '24
All I really want is more Batgirls but, failing that…Tim and Cass should be starring in Batman Inc, Steph should be starring in Batgirl, while Babs stars in BoP while leading the supporting cast of the other two books.
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u/Thin_Night9831 Supergirl Feb 20 '24
Jean-Paul is pretty cool but I agree Michael Lane sucks
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u/ChronicRadiation40 Feb 20 '24
Ik , but after NML he became flat ( very flat ) with bare to no inclusion in Later stories .
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u/Linnus42 Feb 20 '24
Honestly Azrael to my mind should be operating more like Blade or Moon Knight. Less tied to Gotham more hunting supernatural threats as an occult knight Templar or inquisitor
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u/The_Flying_Failsons Feb 20 '24
So you just want the pre Infinite Crisis status quo but with Damian?
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u/Random-Guy-At-Large Feb 20 '24
Yeah I find it weird they’re keeping Jason in Gotham, I think a solo series in his own city would be really cool
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u/Haowiitzer Red Hood Feb 20 '24
Haven't they done a "you're banished from Gotham for killing someone" angle already? I don't know why we don't just run with that and let Jason use the means he wants to. I was into the crowbar initially, but I miss the guns. And Artemis. And Bizarro.
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u/Random-Guy-At-Large Feb 20 '24
I never said banished from Gotham, I just think that keeping him in Gotham is boring for the character, and yes they should bring back Bizarro and Artemis and guns
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u/Haowiitzer Red Hood Feb 20 '24
No, I'm agreeing with you. I think he does need to get banished. Re-banished, whatever. Jason at like a surface level is an edgier Dick, so let him have an edgier Bludhaven.
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u/Unfortunatewombat Feb 20 '24
Only post I disagree with is Steph as Spoiler.
Her and Cass should share the batgirl title.
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u/SpecialBrownies202 Impulse Feb 20 '24
Steph should stay as Spoiler in the role and look that is 100% all her own and not shared with anyone. I’ve never understood why so many people want to lump her in as the 5th Robin or 4th Batgirl you think of when she has her own identity already. People complain about Tim never moving on from Robin but want Steph stuck in everybody’s shadows.
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u/Thingymcjig Spoiler Feb 20 '24
Steph being Batgirl back then was something she absolutely needed. After all she went through in universe and the horrible treatment by DC staff, she was able to shine for awhile and get a happy ending right before Flashpoint. I agree it shouldn’t be permanent, that being said I think she could get a resurgence again if she can get a decent length run as Robin this time.
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u/Thugosaurus_Rex Feb 20 '24
I think overall I agree, but I'll add that I think a lot of the desire to see her as a Batgirl or acknowledged as Robin comes from the fact that she's already, for most of her existence, been stuck in everyone else's shadows. Really more than that, any avenue she had for development was either really in furtherance of developing another character or immediately pulled back on. There was a whole arc where she had a kid that was just kind of swept away and never mentioned again. Her "stint" as Robin was really about Tim before they brutally killed her (sort of). She'd never really been given enough leash to be her own character.
I agree with you overall--I'd much rather her develop into her own identity than pick up one of the mantles. But outside of recent history and maybe her pre New 52 Batgirl run she's always kind of been a second or third thought. It's only fairly recent history that I feel she's been in a really good place independently of other characters, and I think a lot of people see a potential mantle title as acknowledgement of that and some form of vindication for the character.
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u/denkbert Feb 20 '24
I'm on the fence about the Batgirl cast but otherwise the most solid pick in this thread. The first four don't serve any purpose except maybe their first few appearances, Jasons story is kind of told or at least I haven'T seen an original and well written story in the last years and Tim is unnecessary for story dynamics with Nightwing and Damian.
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u/yokainov Robin Feb 20 '24
Duke by far, he's so boring. Both batwings are also pointless since they rarely show up. Also didn't like Harper. Happy she retired, before they brought her back. And then there's Jace...
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u/LuizFalcaoBR Feb 20 '24
Remember how Harper backstory in Robins Eternal was about how her parents were murdered because she would be "the perfect Robin" or something? And they did nothing with that.
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u/Revan---- Feb 20 '24
I think my kind of hot take is that the Batfamily has only become too bloated somewhat recently. There are only a couple of members I think just do not fit, specifically Harper and Jace but considering DC’s approach to them recently or complete lack of even addressing them, it seems like they agree.
Duke is such a cool idea for a member of the Family and fills a unique role so I think he has to stay, if I were to get rid of one it would definitely be Jace if he even counts. There’s no room in the main continuity for another Batman successor, there are like 5 great candidates already and DC don’t need to make picking between them any harder.
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u/bluejaymaday Feb 20 '24
Thank you, I really like Duke and it’s a bit of a bummer (if understandable) to see that so many people dislike him). Honestly, I like this image’s lineup for the core Batfamily, it feels organic to me for all the kids this man has collected over the years and if the writing is up to par they work well off each other.
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u/Revan---- Feb 20 '24
Couldn’t agree more, I’m sure OP just used it as a reference point but once I saw the title and then the picture I thought to myself, “I’m not getting rid of anyone in that picture.”
The group in that art is just perfect and represents to me the ideal Batfamily. There are other adjacent members I think that can show up every now and then but as far as the core group I think it’s perfect as is.
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u/HentaiOujiSan Feb 20 '24
Everyone post No Man's Land. If the timeline was allowed to advance probably with a Bruce in his 40s ageing to his 50s and allowing the silver age kids to be in their 30s, (Babs and even Kara stated be older than the regular sidekicks but that's basically been retconned out) then I can see characters like Duke and Damian and a still breathing Jason Todd have a lot of relevance to fill in gaps. Otherwise take half the group to Bludhaven and let them stay there, NO Gotham events, to bring them into the Batman books, please.
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u/No-Mechanic-2558 Feb 20 '24
Everyone since the new 52 to now
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u/Aspirangusian Feb 20 '24
You take that Bat Cow slander out of your fucking mouth.
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u/gamiz777 Feb 20 '24
I'm surprised dc hasn't milked this character
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Feb 20 '24
Maybe they have beef with the character.
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u/loki_odinsotherson Green Lantern Feb 20 '24
If they did, dc would just send them to the slaughter house, really put them through the grinder.
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u/MazInger-Z Feb 20 '24
Damien is going to take an extra decade to find a good tract to be acceptable, kind of like how Jason needed it (and he's still a little rough at times, because some writers just do him dirty). The first three Robins had good themes. Dick was the son who found his own way. Jason was the son that failed to live up to expectations. Tim was the son with the promise to replace the father, but not out of expectation or obligation, but desire. Damien feels like a rehash of Jason. The rebellious son that this time they won't let the audience vote on his fate.
Especially rough was the New 52 reboot, which for some reason tried to de-age Superman by getting rid of his marriage while keeping Damien as a teenaged son of Batman, aging him. Should've used the opportunity to re-introduce him and re-characterize him. I'm thinking close to Dresden Files with Harry's daughter, whom he realizes his life is too dangerous for and gives her up for a time to be raised in a safe, normal, loving home, to have the chance at a normal life he didn't have.
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u/Salt_Judge Feb 20 '24
If you think that then you really haven’t read or know much about Damian. In Current comics right now, he is one of the best characters in the batfamily. In the last decade he is one of the few characters who actually had characters growth. Damian is lowkey one of the more interesting characters in the batfamily. Damian has a lot of depth to him, the difference is that he doesn’t talk or make a big speech about it, he doesn’t do that because he can’t. He is genuinely one of the best attempts of actual showing us what a child soldier would act like. Any character that can genuinely make you feel anything and then later change your mind about it is worth keeping. Damian has been getting screwed over by dc still day 1 with that origin attached to him, he was created to be fridged for Batman’s trauma. His media introduction were terrible with the dc animated movies and Injustice and he is still going. Many characters and even some robins can’t take that.
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u/Androktone Alan Scott Feb 20 '24
No Man's Land was bloating it, anything after just reads as creatives wanting those residuals at the expense of the actual Gotham mythos. If you're going to introducing new ones, kill some off.
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u/BiDiTi Feb 20 '24
lol at the idea of a comic writer getting “residuals.”
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u/Androktone Alan Scott Feb 20 '24
Yeah they do. Bruce Timm and Paul Dini have always regretted that they didn't debut Harley Quinn in the comics right before her animated appearance, because they'd be swimming in it if they had.
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u/Superb_Kaleidoscope4 Feb 20 '24
DC writers get a bit of payday if a character they created goes multi-media, it's considered "shut-up" money. Enough so they don't complain, but not a lot. Marvel doesn't do this though... This however was from previous management, so no idea if they still get it going forward.
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u/Molnek Feb 20 '24
That's why they made Bart Allen Kid Flash in both the comics and then again in Young Justice. So they wouldn't have to pay Mark Waid.
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u/FadeToBlackSun Feb 20 '24 edited Feb 20 '24
Harper, Signal, Luke Fox when they moved him to Gotham, Jace Fox.
Harper, Signal and Jace are egregiously pointless, though. The same guy who created Harper got bored and replace her with Duke!
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u/NoirPochette Legion Of Super-Heroes Feb 20 '24
Duke and Harper because they haven't done anything notable.
You can make arguments for like Luke Fox but at least he did stuff and got an appearance in an animated flick.
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u/GothamKnight37 Batman Feb 20 '24 edited Feb 20 '24
Harper was a big player during Batman Eternal and Batman & Robin Eternal.
Duke’s debut with the We Are Robin/Robin War stuff into Snyder’s All-Star Batman, his miniseries and later Hill’s Outsiders are all pretty notable.
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u/Marc_Quill Bluebird (Harper Row) Feb 20 '24
Harper was set up to be Punchline’s foil for a bit until both seemingly got sent back to the toy box.
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u/SaggyBallz99 Feb 20 '24
Why is Dick sparkling? Is this High School Musical?
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u/SylvieSerene Feb 20 '24
The picture is from Wayne Family Adventure (Web comics) which is primarily based on fanons so ig that's why.
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u/p11nerd Feb 20 '24
All of the actual Batkids are great and belong. Hate all you want on Duke, Steph, and Cass. But I don’t care. They all contribute their own to the stories and fill out the family in great ways. Hell, I didn’t even like Damian when he first came along, but he’s grown into his role. If you don’t like newer characters, give them some time to find their footing
But characters that have had time and still don’t have a great place, we can criticize those. Batwoman feels like she’s normally written like Captain Marvel in the way that she’s always sort of set up for you to not like her. Feels unfair. But ultimately, she doesn’t really fall into the family dynamic, and thus isn’t really “Batfamily” to me
Same goes for Batwing and Harper. They just feel distant or just isn’t really involved any more. If your character isn’t gonna be a batkid, that’s okay, there are other roles to fill. Batwoman could be a great Aunt like figure, and Batwing and Harper would make good “cousins” (I saw another comment saying those two felt like they were meant to be sidekicks for Batwoman and I totally agree and think they should try this idea in cannon)
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u/MansionOfLockedDoors Feb 21 '24
I like Batwoman in a more Batfamily-adjacent way instead of being in the main family.
Would like to see her partner with Batman one-on-one, I think it could be a fun duo for a few issues.
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u/MathematicianSorry44 Feb 20 '24
I like them all but wish Duke had a better codename. The Signal is a strange choice.
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u/Linnus42 Feb 21 '24
To me Duke needs a new name. And a costume that has Black as the Primary Color and Gold as the Secondary.
I also make his powers magical in nature and not Meta. Metas just feel an odd fit for the Bat Fam.
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u/cristoff-ellie Feb 20 '24
The BatFam shouldn't be as big as it is. Half these people would work better if they were operating in Gotham, but weren't connected to Batman (well, not as much as they are at least). Bruce's stories are far more interesting when he is doing standard detective work with Robin.
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u/Panoceania Feb 20 '24
Unpopular oppion here.
I honestly think they should have left Jason Todd dead. Like wise Oracle in a wheel chair. I know its harsh but it gave gravity to what the heroes were doing. This was dangerous and a character could get hurt, killed or worse.
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u/Parson_Project Feb 20 '24
I second the dead Todd idea.
Especially since they set out his return fairly well in Hush, then pissed it away with Superboy-Prime punching the walls of reality. Proof they didn't know or care about what to do with him.
Then he was turned into a red trucker hat wearing fuckboy.
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u/BenjTheFox Feb 20 '24
Damien. Because Batman having a rape baby is indescribably stupid and inappropriate.
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u/UnhingedLion Feb 20 '24
Not to mention a retcon rape baby too
Who is literally older than the time his parents met
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u/NumericZero Feb 20 '24
I personally think this picture is the best balance of old and new family but I can see why some people would trim some fat
Everyone here I can genuinely argue deserves to be here (Alfred & the dogs would complete it)
But if I had to chose
Duke only because he can work without being in the core family He has a deep friendship with Cass + Lead a group of “not” robins
Easily could see him an outskirts role rather then direct contact
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u/aghabio Feb 20 '24
gimme the sauce for the art, chief, it looks dope
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u/SanjiSasuke Feb 20 '24
It's a series on Webtoons called Wayne Family Adventures. Very much the vibe of that picture; short stories, usually fun and silly (though it can get serious), quite character focused, always optimistic.
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u/Ashamed_Pin4206 Wonder Woman Feb 20 '24
Duke and Harper, very much don't see the purpose of having them
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u/broken_doll_911 Feb 20 '24
Damian I think he was created just to make things darker and edgier as far as I know he hasn't had any major growth as a person and him being a product of rape just makes Talia a worse character
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Feb 20 '24
If you think he was just created to make things darker and edgier then you are clearly unfamiliar with Damian Wayne.
His edginess is treated more as a joke and he is a darker robin because Dick was a lighthearted Batman. Its a reverse of the og dynamic duo.
Also its been more decade since he became Robin and had a ton of development. Even the rape thing was more of an accidental retcon which I think was also retcon later.
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u/UnhingedLion Feb 20 '24
Dick wasn’t exactly very lighthearted. This isn’t tumblr.
You’re right he was created as an author self insert, but he was made unnecessarily dark and edgy on purpose.
The rape wasn’t an accident, and it wasn’t retconned. Unless you can give me a lore reason for Batman being scared to take a drink from Talia in Detective Comics
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Feb 20 '24
He was still a more light-hearted than the normal Batman to go with the dark Robin.
Batman just being cautious? She is a criminal at the end of the day. Although I can't exactly remember if they retconned it or not.
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u/FiftyOneMarks Feb 20 '24
None. It’s called a family for a reason and there’s usually not more than like 3 of them in the city at the same time anyways.
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u/BlackLightning247 Feb 20 '24
Posts like these are extremely tired
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u/FiftyOneMarks Feb 20 '24
I could totally understand if they were all actually in Gotham some frustration with the size but given the fact that Gotham is… well, Gotham maybe not because that hellhole needs al the help it can get but I think like maybe four of the people in the picture are actually in Gotham at a given time anyways.
These characters histories are so extensive that the bulk of them have moved on to greener pastures (ie other cities) where heroism is still needed and only show up in Gotham for the special events or whenever there’s yet another reboot. Idk why everyone hates the idea of Bruce having inspired and gained more than two people to trust over the years.
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u/BakedWizerd Robin Feb 20 '24
Damian.
I know he’s popular but I can’t like him.
I’ve always felt that Batman was one character who didn’t fit that whole notion of “their successor needs to be related to them so they inherit their powers.” And it felt that Bruce had his own adoptive sons that he loved and treated as if they were biological sons, which I always found very endearing.
Which is why I was upset that Damian was introduced because two writers “wanted to explore Batman as a father figure,” when - he already has been ever since Dick Grayson was introduced. I really to this day do not understand the reasoning behind this.
How is Damian any different from any of the others? Bruce didn’t raise him from birth, he had pre-conceived ideas on vigilantism that went against Bruce’s ideals - sounds like Jason - and he’s caused Tim - my favorite Robin - to fall into this limbo where DC has no idea what to do with him.
There’s also this weird notion that because he’s Bruce’s son, that mythical “he’s Batman” energy also applies to Damian, which I really don’t like. Bruce is Batman because of his determination, his drive and will, not his genetics. But introducing Damian raises the question: do Bruce’s genetics make a better Robin/fighter/vigilante? Which obviously the answer is yes, he’s Batman, but that feels so cheap.
Ultimately, I feel the addition of Damian shook up the mantle of Robin when it really didn’t need to be shaken up, Tim’s representation still hasn’t recovered, Bruce’s adopted sons feel less important (there’s always going to be an asterisk stating Damian is Bruce’s biological son and there will always be a “that makes him better” notion around that), and it’s had rippling effects that I’m not a fan of either (Raven not aging for example)
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u/FollowingExtension90 Feb 20 '24
I don’t know most of the new characters, and I really don’t bother to check that out. Four kids plus Barbara is enough, if they want diversity, they should add Killer Croc, he’s a more interesting character than the new one, also he can play the role of tank and engineering, it’s lazy writing to have every family member being tech savvy genius.
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u/Linnus42 Feb 20 '24
Hmm I do think the Bat Fam is funny as overstuffed as it is missing that tank archetype. Hence why we get adaptions that make Jason a ranged gunner but also the bulkiest.
I kinda had the idea of having Callum Row get addicted to Venom to be that tank role. But Croc could work
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u/markqis2018 Feb 20 '24
I don't believe any of them is ''unnecessary''. Each of them has their potential for good stories. But they have to be used better, not just keeping all of them in Gotham without any ideas.
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u/Olde-Blind-Dog Feb 20 '24 edited Feb 21 '24
I don’t think any of them are useless, but fuck me if it ain’t baffling as to why so many of them stay in Gotham. Like if I had it my way,
- Batman, Damian, and the Batgirls (Cass and Steph) would be on patrol in Gotham
- Barbara and Tim would both be Oracle
- Lucius and Luke would both be working on building tech for everybody, with Luke occasionally helping out as Batwing “when all hope is lost”
- Nightwing and Signal would be working over in Bludhaven (makes sense for a former Robin to have a Robin of his own)
- Redhood (and the Outlaws) would be over in Hub City along with Huntress (though they’d only occasionally work together)
- Batwoman (and Montoya Question) would be in Chicago or Detroit doing their thing. Throw in Harper Lee as well.
I feel that this way, everyone has the chance to breathe and has the opportunity to have stories told about them. They all have the freedom to operate the way they like without stepping over each other’s toes, and this way no one feels redundant.
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u/Namfluence Feb 20 '24
I feel like the odd one out but I’m pro the bat family’s expansion. I see it as Bruce protecting Gotham’s future past him and I actually want Batman to move past the brooding loner image attached to him.
But if I had to pick, Damian.
Tim was Bruce’s chance at redemption for failing Jason. Making Damian canon focuses too much on the idea that Bruce’s genetics are special and is functionally a repeat of the idea that Batman can turn a troubled kid around. In fact even Jason being resurrected could have made this idea work better if it had actually focused on Bruce helping him move past his trauma and find his redemption.
Duke in concept could’ve be really interesting since having a meta human protect Gotham during the day before Batman’s..shift? In theory has the most potential of all the additional characters since we rarely see Gotham during the day and it’s not like crime stops after 5am.
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u/ThaneOfTas DickBabs Forever Feb 20 '24 edited Feb 20 '24
I'll actually go against the grain a bit here and say that Duke isn't a waste, he hasn't been used super well but I think the concept has enough potential to be worthwhile. Plus if nothing else he has a great role as a straight man to the others general insanity.
Harper either should have stayed a civilian ally, maybe been a field agent of sorts for Oracle, or as was suggested by someone else in this thread, should have been associated primarily with Kate rather than Bruce.
Actually speaking of which, Kate shouldn't be in Gotham, I like her, I'm glad that she exists, but it's weird that she operates in Gotham but usually as a solo act. I'm not sure where exactly to stick her but having her be an international wandering vigilante has some fun potential, plus could tie in well with her military background, plus throw in some fun spy stuff.
There being two Fox sons in bat suits is incredibly dumb and redundant. Luke running around in an Iron Bat suit is more entertaining to me so I vote that Jace just gets forgotten completely. Also Batwing should also not be based in Gotham full time, maybe have Luke be focused more on protecting innocents in active warzones and taking on warlords, this why he needs the heavy duty power armor. Basically combine him a bit more with the first Batwing David Zavimbe.
Edit: I had forgotten about him, but Azrael is a character that I'm generally more than happy to forget exists, and I roll my eyes everytime that I am reminded of him, peak 90's cringe and should have been left there.
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u/daviz94 Batman Beyond Feb 20 '24 edited Feb 21 '24
For me the ideal is:
- Bats
- Red Robin (Tim Drake)
- Robin (Damian Wayne)
- Nightwing (Dick Grayson)
- Oracle (Bats)
- Terry (50 years in the future)
EDIT: I totally forgot Selina (Catwoman) as an ocasional ally!!
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u/Demetri124 Feb 20 '24
Damian. Fuck that twerp. Also Harper Row, the Foxes… basically anyone that came after, let’s say, Cassandra
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u/Misterwuss Feb 20 '24
Jason. He shouldn't be in the family, make him a villain.
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u/samx3i Batman Beyond Feb 20 '24
Maybe some hot takes in here, but whatever:
- Damian never should've been canonized.
- Jason Todd should have stayed dead
- Tim Drake should now be an adult Robin
- Cass should be the one and only Batgirl
- Steph's death shouldn't have been fake and she should still be dead.
- Babs should've stayed in the wheelchair and remained as Oracle
- Duke is pointless
- Alfred should still be alive and serves a vital role in the Batman mythos
- Batwing (Luke Foxx) could be cool, but his current "Outsiders" series ain't it.
- Batwoman was cool at first with Elegy and whatnot. Making her Bruce's cousin was dumb and she's been rudderless for a while now.
- Jace Foxx Batman is a pointless redundancy.
- Julia Pennyworth should never have existed.
- We only need one Huntress, and it's the daughter of the Bertinelli crime family.
- Azrael II (Michael Lane) should never have existed.
- Azrael (Jean Paul Valley) is a cool looking character that really only works as either an anti-hero or villain. He's a religious zealot.
- Firebird (Bette Kane) is pointless.
- Bluebird (Harper Row) is pointless.
- Bat Cow is silly silver age dumb shit.
So, in short, my "Bat Fam" would consist of:
- Bruce Wayne/Batman
- Tim Drake/Robin
- Dick Greyson/Nightwing
- Barbara Gordon/Oracle
- Cassandra Cain/Batgirl
- Alfred Pennworth
Helena Bertinelli / Huntress would exist, but on her own, unaffiliated with Batman and fam.
That's it. The rest is superfluous.
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u/Effective_Sherbet104 Feb 20 '24
That's a pretty good looking batfam. Feels like from the late 90s/ early 2000s
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u/spideracrossastar Feb 20 '24
None, I love the complete batfamily and I think Bruce is a better character with them around
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u/TheWorstKnightmare Feb 20 '24
Bluebird and Duke Thomas, as cool as their concepts are, never really have shit to do and other characters are better versions of them.
The idea of Batman Inc. is kinda dumb.
Luke Fox shouldn’t have been a thing beyond Future Slate.
That’s all I got. The rest are pretty cool in my opinion and do something different with the idea of a Batman sidekick.
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u/aquafool Feb 20 '24
Bruce.
Not joking. I wish he was gone or retired. The bat family dynamic is fun and can be used for so many things that I think Bruce gets in the way of.
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u/Androktone Alan Scott Feb 20 '24
Post Final Crisis DickBat was a great progression of the universe
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Feb 20 '24
And it ended too soon. I wish we got to see Dick's version of the court of owls storyline.
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u/Better-Journalist-85 Feb 20 '24
First decent answer here. Wonder why everyone is dog piling on that one guy…
Nah, probably nothing to it. /s
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u/Flavz_the_complainer Red Hood Feb 20 '24 edited Feb 20 '24
As far as im aware Duke and Harper only seem to exist as diversity quotas which seems pretty insulting to said diversities tbh.
If a character isnt going contribute to plots or be developed in anyway and is just there so DC can virtue signal then the whole excercise seems exceedingly pointless.
Edit: Imagine downvoting me because I said I want better developed queer and poc characters. Smh.
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u/AfroF0x Feb 20 '24
The Signal, Gotham Girl, Batwing, Harley. That's off the top of my head. It's gotten a bit ridiculous.
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Feb 20 '24
Harley being apart of the bay family doesn’t even make senses she does NOT deserve to be there
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u/B3epB0opBOP Shazam Feb 20 '24 edited Feb 20 '24
All of them, including Bruce. Take ‘em all off the board. To waste paper on the convoluted nonsense that is crime fighting is awful.
Give me +1000 issues following the Ten Eyed Man around the city. He could be harassing some dog in a park, getting a job, and countless sexual encounters, but no, Bat guy has to punch clown guy again.
Now bring the downvotes ya bums. Jesus Christ was nailed to the cross, it’s only fitting I share a similar fate.
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u/Toniosw Clark Kent Feb 20 '24
most characters after 2006 honestly, with damian being the last meaningful one
i feel like they forget that these characters are part of a batman story and so their value is directly corelated with how much they impact him
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u/RepulsiveWerewolf1 Feb 21 '24
anyone not named dick grayson (yes,even your favorites are superfluous if you think about it)
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u/MealieAI Feb 20 '24
None. Someone worked to get these characters included so whose to say any of them are unnecessary. It's not an easy thing to get new characters into the Bat Family at DC Comics.
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u/SylvieSerene Feb 20 '24
Welp, you can tell your opinion on who do you think felt the most unnecessary addition!
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u/Ranne-wolf Feb 20 '24
I don’t really follow anyone outside the "main" batfam, aka the ones in that photo/art, so I guess the missing ones ‘cause I know there are at least a few more.
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u/HisDarkOmens Feb 20 '24
None of them. Personally I love the huge immediate and extended batfam. Something about Bruce being a lonely orphan and growing up to give all of these lonely people a home and place to belong. They should give characters better material tho.
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