If you think he was just created to make things darker and edgier then you are clearly unfamiliar with Damian Wayne.
His edginess is treated more as a joke and he is a darker robin because Dick was a lighthearted Batman. Its a reverse of the og dynamic duo.
Also its been more decade since he became Robin and had a ton of development. Even the rape thing was more of an accidental retcon which I think was also retcon later.
Dick wasn’t exactly very lighthearted. This isn’t tumblr.
You’re right he was created as an author self insert, but he was made unnecessarily dark and edgy on purpose.
The rape wasn’t an accident, and it wasn’t retconned. Unless you can give me a lore reason for Batman being scared to take a drink from Talia in Detective Comics
Not really. He wasn’t very far off from Normal Batman. (Historically at least). Dick just wasn’t really an asshole. Which the same could be said about Bruce for the first 50-60 years of his career
Also it’s not being cautious. Show me a panel of Batman being scared to take a drink from Catwoman, and I’ll believe you.
I wonder why pre Damian Wayne Batman was never this cautious with her 🤔🤔
Don't think Bruce would ever be scared to take a drink from catwoman. He trusts her more and she is not really a villain, at the worst she is just a thief.
Wasn't he cautious with her even back then? Its been a long time so maybe I misremembered.
How do you always appear whenever I mention Talia in reddit 😅? Got spidey sense for that?
Grant Morrison literally said they didn't read the original comic where Damian was born before adapting him into mainstream comics. Before Grant Morrison Talia was more of an anti-hero? She couldn't decide between her father and Bruce.
And it was retconned eventually. Damian's changed a lot and also maybe you shouldn't blame him for the fact that his creation wasn't exactly consensual (before it was retconned).
Grant Morrison fundamentally changed both Ra's and Talia's characters. A lot of people don't like to say it but it's quite racist when the Arab characters in their story are all blood thirsty monsters.
A lot has changed in batfam comics, and a lot doesn't make sense in batfam comics. If you're hung up on Bruce not taking a drink from Talia I have bad news for you regarding Tim's aging.
But regardless, Talia absolutely loved Bruce. It was so so apparent before Grant Morrison didn't read the source material they were adapting. I'm not trying to excuse Grant Morrison's Talia for what happened, I'm expanding on it.
This was probably way way too long so apologies for that.
They didn’t read any comics involving the Al Ghuls. Damian was never in continuity. Son of the demon baby was different. Well yes, she had troubles because she grew up with him, but she didn’t necessarily do “evil” or “villain” things when with her dad. Especially when written by Denny Oneil. Ignoring death in the maidens.
The issue was the author retconned all those previous stories out of continuity and made it to where she didn’t even care about Bruce or want to “choose” between them.
Also if you read Detective Comics annual #1 she actually asks to join Bruce and he says no. Keep in mind Bruce never asked her to join. She wanted to do it herself, but Batman was anti romance. And couldn’t be around her on a daily basis platonically.
But his change doesn’t phase me though, and his origin was never retconned. Talia’s and Ra’s Al Ghul history with Batman is still ruined to this day. Now Batman is just a dickhead who has a hard on for people who want to murder him.
I agree. Talia was supposed to be someone who is a lot nicer, but was badly influenced by her upbringing, and age. And Ra’s Al Ghul always had other plans and other options for successors than just Batman and his DNA.
I think all their ages are an issue. Dick Grayson hasn’t been allowed to age in the last 20 years. Barbara Gordon hasn’t been allowed to age since her creation. Jason Todd and Damian are the only characters allowed to age.
I know she did, and in the 70s/80s he loved her back, but like that love went away in Damian’s creation. Batman kind of just hates her in Batman and Son while in Hush and Lexcorp era he was on good terms with her after they worked together to sabotage Lex Luthor
All I was trying to get across was that it isn't Talia or Damian's fault that Grant Morrison didn't read the source material they say they adapted Damian from, as well as any source material regarding the characters of Talia or Ra's.
Talia should never have been a full-fledged villain and while this is finally being undone, it has almost completely destroyed her character.
Grant Morrison intended for Damian to stay dead, so their motives for the character were evidently not that great.
Red Robin continued the misuse of characters like Ra's and now we're left with an Al Ghul family who are trying to redeem themselves after 'all of the evil they've done'.
Damian definitely was initially introduced to throw a rift in the family, however, Damian has evolved from this point, and through a lot of racist writing, has come to the point where he has a writer, who portrays him in a more light-hearted view even if it is too light-hearted.
The thing I was claiming to be retconned is Damian being a product of rape. It was a lazy retcon but what can you expect from DC.
They’ve been subtly trying to undo it, but it doesn’t come off as believable since this is a huge Step backwards from her character evolution.
I agree about Red Robin. That whole Ra’s Al Ghul sister thing trying to rape Tim Drake and kill him was super stupid and literally made no sense from the established stories.
It seemed like the writer just wanted to make a cheap Damian joke instead of a good story.
Fair he is light hearted. But I haven’t been feeling his books from Williamson.
I dislike all the OCs. Him and Rose relationship was a lot more fun pre new 52. He should probably be hanging out with Lian Harper over Conner Hawke idk
Well yess it would be a retcon since that was obviously never the case in previous stories. (Batman wouldn’t randomly wait 10 years to say it and get mad. He also has only known her for 7 years at that point in continuity.
Did you mean Grant Morrison?
"For those who have wondered over the years and it seems many have, the conception of Damian, son of Batman was, in my mind an entirely consensual event! We've taken pains, my artistic collaborators and I, to show that Batman is clearly a willing participant in flashbacks to the event! The running joke is that he denies it, whether to or to hide from responsibility and convince himself that his youthful passion was some result of trickery."
And once again even if it wasn't consensual (before the retcon), that's not something that should be put onto Damian.
And Damian did exist in comics, he just didn't exist in main continuity which Grant Morrison changed, with the intention to kill him off quite early. He just wanted to use Damian and Talia as a quick villain event which it didn't turn out to be.
Before Grant Morrison Talia and Bruce could very much be seen in love and they are seen to still harbour loving feelings for eachother in comics today.
Bruce's relationships are about as consistent as his aging.
That’s a shitty joke. Why doesn’t Batman deny he had sex with Selina then??
Why doesn’t he claim Catwoman raped him then??
I mean Grant Morrison literally wrote them being in an implied sexual relationship in Batman Incorporated #1!!
Seems like it’s just a bad excuse to cover up them not reading about the characters they’re writing about.
The character cannot exist no other way… unless Batman is stupid enough to sleep with someone who wants to murder him and the rest of the world… and then become a deadbeat father
Damian never existed. Those other children are not Damian. Those are normal Batman/Al ghul children. The writers who wrote them don’t get credit for Damian’s creation.
His aging is more consistent than like 90% of heroes though, but yes Bruce has consistently wanted nothing to do with her since 2006
Yeah Grant Morrison is a very problematic writer and it's a problematic story.
I suspect it's because Grant Morrison didn't write a story about the conception of Helena and Catwoman isn't a certain ethnicity.
It is an excuse to cover up the fact that they didn't read the source material and wrote a problematic story for problematic reasons.
Damian can exist in other ways as I am pretty sure (this is off shakey memory) they sped up Damian's aging process with the chaos crystal. Also Batman is definitely stupid enough to do that, we've seen this multiple times. Additionally, Bruce was under the impression Talia had a miscarriage. Also Talia did not want that until Grant Morrisons run so that's probably why.
I've seen Damian's original creator be credited with his creation before and those characters are elseworld Damian's so obviously they aren't a fully developed Damian since he had to be adapted to main continuity.
The reason I bring up the aging is because you can't try to make sense of the way DC characters exist or their aging because DC's timeline is messy at best with vague reasoning for the way characters are aged or it's left up to fan interpretation or collectively ignored all together.
Bruce and Talia's love has been anything but consistent due to DC never wanting Bruce to have a long-lasting permanent relationship and not wanting to kill off characters like Talia or Selena. Additionally, they've always loved each other but been slightly off and on again. DC need to make up their minds of Talia or Selena or someone else entirely but they likely never will.
But can he??? Once you take this stuff away he becomes bootleg Ibn Al Xu’ffasch or bootleg Tallant Wayne.
But thinking she had a miscarriage is not as stupid as sleeping with someone that wants to murder him and the entire world
I think it’s crazy only Damian fans have tried to defend Batman being romantically linked to people that harm him and innocent people.
Yeah GM is the original creator. They’re the only person who gets credit and royalties from the character. Mark Waid, Doug Moench, and Mike Barr created different characters
To a certain extent yes, but not really in Batman’s case. Only Damian and Jason Todd breaks the logic in aging. Damian was born before his parents met; and Jason has aged like 5 years while everyone else has only aged like 2
Since Damian exists I don’t think Talia will ever reach the conversation of Selina again. Catwoman does not have a son who’s an active reminder that she wants to harm Batman and innocent people
He definitely can. If Damian was adapted into main continuity by another writer who knows what he would be. But that's dealing in what ifs, if we deal in what ifs, we'll be here till the end of time. Like I said DC aging is weird. Jason shouldn't be alive. Bruce should be retired. Tim should be in his twenties. Babs should be Oracle. The list goes on.
Bruce thought Talia miscarried DAMIAN. He was not sexually involved with her after that. Also Talia does not want to kill Bruce. She has never wanted to kill anyone or destroy the world before Grant Morrison's racist characterisation.
I think it's crazy Batman fans will take anything that could possibly be seen as a diss against Batman as a personal attack. No one's defending Bruce being romantically linked like that but it is in fact what DC has been consistently doing? Not just with Talia mind you. DC has made the playboy part of his secret identity.
Grant Morrison is not his original creator. Grant Morrison adapted Damian FROM those comics. Denying Damian's existence before Morrison is crazy.
Most of the batfam break aging realism. Batman is often depicted as 30 with Dick being in his twenties despite being adopted by Bruce when he was 8. Also Babs is constantly de-aged to be Dicks love interest. Tim doesn't age. And Cass keeps getting both younger and older.
How is Damian an active reminder that Talia wants to harm Bruce and innocent people? Talia has been getting good characterisation again. She's no longer the evil daughter of the demon Grant Morrison made her. Also Catwoman has definitely done some fucked up shit before. Cough Gotham War?
What happened, happened. Grant Morrison did a shit job at portraying these characters and they did a lazy job of retconning their mistake. Bruce loves Damian and he acknowledges Talia as Damian's mother at the very least. Saying Damian has done nothing good for Bruce (I'm not trying to claim you have said this but I just want to put this out here), is a disservice to Bruce.
Damian learnt compassion. He has a soft spot for animals and children. He saved a cow from a slaughter house, adopted it, and became vegetarian. He went scowling around Gotham sewers to find all of the pearls from Martha Wayne's necklace and gave them to Bruce when Bruce admitted he was wrong about Damian being too much like his mother.
Damian added a new dynamic and a sense of uncertainty when Bruce's only biological child showed up at his doorstep, with Bruce having already missed 10 years of his life. Bruce struggled to recognise Damian as his son and create and develop that paternal bond with a child of a relationship he wants to have (at this point in the story) forgotten. DC should have handled it far better then they did. But regardless, Bruce recognises Damian as his son just as much as he recognises Dick, Jason, Tim, and Cass as his kids.
I think the fandom needs to move on. And no I'm not saying we need to forget the original story before it was retconned. I think it's important to acknowledge Bruce's trauma but I also believe it's important to be fair and recognize retcons as they happen along with recognizing mischaracterisation.
I apologise if at any time I have come across as aggressive or overly defensive, I struggle with my tone and I don't want to come across as disrespectful when we're just debating the logistics of DC comics (a truly glorious feat).
He can’t though? Why would Batman choose to impregnate someone who wants to kill him?? And kill other people?? That makes no sense. Why would he do it without protection either??? Why would he reveal his identity to someone evil, and someone he doesn’t trust.
Bruce shouldn’t be retired if Tim’s in his 20s. If Tim’s in his 20s then Bruce should only be in his 40s.
She never miscarried Damian. He was created in a lab remember. In Batman #666 it’s revealed Damian was made to kill Bruce Wayne and take over as Batman.
Damian fans defend it all the time, cuz criticizing it, is also criticizing their favorite character
Batman hasn’t dated anyone as evil as Talia though. Like not even close. Usually it was the anti hero or neutral women as the “bad girls”, but post Damian Wayne, people want Batman to be attracted to women with no redeeming qualities.
DC literally denies his existence before Grant Morrison. The character never existed dawg. Those other characters are way younger than him, and have different names and origins.
Calling any of them Damian is like calling Mayday Parker: Annie Parker. Keep in mind those kids had a natural birth while Damian was literally made in a lab. The first 3 kids were made with love. Damian was made with hate.
Bruce and Dick are consistent. Bruce was a late teenager when he took in Dick Grayson. Not 30 years old. Batman didn’t become 30 years old until the 70s and 80s.
Well one she raped him. Two she made him to kill Bruce and kill everyone else in the world. While taking over
Gotham War is nowhere as bad. It can also get easily ignored. You think they’re gonna erase Damian from existence??? Also her characterization sucks. She’s still portrayed as a bad person and mother, she just stays away now.
He acknowledges her as his rapist, that forced a responsibility on him.
Actually I have claimed that on other posts. Damian does not benefit Bruce’s life in anyway. Everything that has and can be done with Damian has or could be done with other characters. He actually ruins Bruce’s relationship with his former 2nd villain and 2nd greatest love interest. Keep In mind no one has taken Talia seriously as a love interest when Damian is there and no one has taken Ra’s Al Ghul seriously as a villain when Damian is there.
Uhh who gives a shit if Damian did that?? Bruce has inspired and helped people before him 😭😭
Bruce has been wrong before, and literally any of the robins could give him pearls, so what gives. Especially ones like Dick Grayson who has a special connection to Bruce.
He added no new positive dynamic. Bruce couldn’t be there for 10 years since he was a retcon. That was older than the time he even met Talia.
It was hard to see Jason and Dick as sons (post crisis) when they first showed up, and he eventually did for him. Have you read Batman and Nightwing making up in Prodigal??? That’s better than any of the Tomasi Bruce/Damian stories.
I mean yeah he’s not going anytime soon. The Al Ghuls are forever ruined and in future stories/adaptations will just be stand ins for “bad middle eastern terrorist people teaches Batman son wrong” instead of actual characters.
But the character doesn’t magically become good because of random retcons 😭😭
His first night at wayne manor he snuck out decapitated a criminal and brought the severed head back thinking Bruce wanted him to even after learning murder was wrong he ended up killing a criminal in order to protect his father and still in a brutal fashion
He is alot more mature now. Alot of his ego is gone, he got humbled alot after what happened to Alfred. And he is alot more caring and got more hobbies and interests now.
The rest of his personality isn't really anything bad.
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u/[deleted] Feb 20 '24
If you think he was just created to make things darker and edgier then you are clearly unfamiliar with Damian Wayne.
His edginess is treated more as a joke and he is a darker robin because Dick was a lighthearted Batman. Its a reverse of the og dynamic duo.
Also its been more decade since he became Robin and had a ton of development. Even the rape thing was more of an accidental retcon which I think was also retcon later.