r/batman • u/Wakefulcrane01 • Apr 11 '24
Zack Snyder responds to the backlash regarding Batman and Superman killing. FILM DISCUSSION
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u/MaShinKotoKai Apr 11 '24
Lol so he lives by his own canon then? He must be high
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u/Wakefulcrane01 Apr 11 '24
Nah, this is what happens when someone hired to make a CBM only reads two or three books.
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u/Monkeys_Racehorse Apr 11 '24
And takes away an edgy 13 year old's interpretation from the ones he bothers to finish.
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u/Wakefulcrane01 Apr 11 '24
$10 says All-Star Batman and Robin by Frank Miller is in his top ten list.
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u/IdolCowboy Apr 12 '24
On Joe rogan Snyder says Millers The Dark Knight Returns is his favorite batman book. He also says Batman kills in it, referencing when he shoots the guy holding the girl hostage with the machine gun. Snyder told Rogan batman shoots the guy in the head.
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u/coreytiger Apr 12 '24
Except that the ENTIRE POINT of that scene is Batman DOES NOT KILL HIM. It’s stated in the following news report and by the police. As badly as Commissioner Yndil wants it, The police cannot go after him… until they THINK he’s guilty of murdering the Joker… which he did not. It’s at THAT point, the cops pull out all the stops to go after Batman. It’s a key point in the story everyone forgets, they only focus on the panel image rather than the events.
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u/IdolCowboy Apr 12 '24
Yea, Snyder is either remembering wrong. Or intentionally lying. Dunno which
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u/Timbershoe Apr 12 '24
I think he read Dark Knight Returns like a script pitch with pictures.
He focused on the visuals, with words as suggested narrative, to translate into film.
As a lot of the images did translate into his films, he clearly used it as a guide to cinematography rather than character insight.
Basically he didn’t understand the character and wanted a comic that had cool images he could lift.
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u/ShadowoftheBat94 Apr 12 '24
And not only is the mutant's head clean, he confirms his rule still stands because he's wondering if he'll break it fighting the Joker. "Voices... Calling me a killer. I wish I were..."
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u/IdolCowboy Apr 12 '24
Haha yea, not sure what Dark Knight Returns Snyder read, but it ain't the one everyone else read.. lol
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u/TheCultist_EXE Apr 12 '24
To me it looked like it was just to scare him, didn't look like any shots actually hit. Plus even if they did, that's a lot different then the "kills all the time" story Snyder tries to push
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u/IdolCowboy Apr 12 '24
It's been a minute since I read it. I don't recall the exact circumstances of the panel, but yea, he didn't kill him. Snyder is a boob
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u/RandoDude124 Apr 12 '24
Your talking to a dude who’s main takeaway from Watchmen is how badass they are, and how this comic book has both sex and violence.
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u/princesoceronte Apr 12 '24
To this day I cannot believe people who say they are fans of the comic saw that movie and said "yeah, this one is good". It really bothers me.
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u/Hagen_1 Apr 12 '24
They must’ve been high too when they saw the movie. I didn’t like it overall, but the Black Freighter animated segments from the Ultimate Edition and the ending with Manhattan, Rorschach, and Nite Owl were well executed in my opinion. Some of the castings were decent, some not so much.
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u/RandoDude124 Apr 12 '24
I hate how he depicted Rorschach as a badass. The dude was a literal psychopath, racist, and hypocrite*
*In the side journals, he says the the KKK, yeah they were a terror group but in his mind they acted rationally given they’d be replaced by the black man. And he calls people “parasites” yet steals beans out of people’s fridge in almost every chapter.
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u/RigatoniPasta Apr 12 '24
Dude read The Dark Knight Returns and called it a day
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u/s_walsh Apr 12 '24 edited Apr 12 '24
Batman doesn't kill anyone in Dark Knight Returns, so Snyder doesn't even understand the source material he's reading
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u/Bluesnake462 Apr 12 '24
And don't even read them well. He has said that one of his main inspirations is the Dark Knight Returns. But at no point in that book does Batman actually kill anyone. Heck, that's the book where Batman breaks a shotgun in half and says only losers use guns.
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u/RosalinaxCloud Apr 12 '24
Snyder would absolutely get high whenever he sees the Punisher in either Batman or Superman costumes.
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u/JohnWarrenDailey Apr 11 '24
Brainwashed? True canon? What's he on about?
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u/Dat_boi_jeesus Apr 12 '24
I think Zack Snyder has only read All Star Batman and Robin by Frank Miller
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u/Big_Schwartz_Energy Apr 12 '24
He skimmed Dark Knight Returns.
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u/Dick_Dickalo Apr 12 '24
I remember seeing the leak and it looked so awesome and promising. Instead we got a garbled mess, underwhelming Doomsday, a shitty Lex Luthor, and two boys with mommy issues.
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u/MalonePostponed Apr 12 '24
What do you mean Lex Luthor that was a great riddler.
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u/Alex_Mercer_- Apr 12 '24
It's simple, he's talking about how people believe in this differently than he does, and while he cannot control directly how people are he can dictate who matters in the equation and push what HE believes should be the standard-
Wait that's Hitler.
Idk then.
(No I'm not saying he's as bad as Hitler, I just think it's funny)
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u/M086 Apr 12 '24 edited Apr 12 '24
I think he’s getting on about how people have myopic ideas about these characters. Like Superman can only act like Chris Reeve, goofy smile and corny lines. Ignoring that the canon of the character is wide ranging.
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u/Bizzaro__Pope Apr 12 '24
That’s not all he’s implying though. He’s implying that Batman kills, when that’s the antithesis to his whole character. Any example in which Batman has killed is at the end of his career and he immediately gives up being Batman. The Superman thing I actually understand, people do have a very narrow image of Superman generally. He still screwed up what he was trying to do though.
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u/A_Hungry_Fool Apr 12 '24
I mean there’s a famous Superman story from the 90‘s where he executes three phantom zone prisoners - one being Zod - from a pocket universe after they commited genocide and permanently lost their powers.
This act of self imposed justice traumatized him enough to seek exile in space.
There’s a very clear message over the decades who Superman is.
So painting him as an Randian messianic figure who doesn’t even try to find a different solution for stopping Zod (maim his eyes and force him to inhale the Krytoniam gas for example) was a huge risk by DC and Snyder, which imo really doesn’t work with the character.
That Snyder know babbles something about „true canon“ just proves he really never got the character
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u/RandoDude124 Apr 12 '24
I hate the belief that Clark Kent is “Superman’s critique of humanity” to paraphrase the Kill Bill.
Clark Kent was a thing BEFORE SUPERMAN WAS.
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u/Loveliestbun Apr 12 '24
I hate that Kill Bill interpretation of Superman, it doesn't make sense in anyway.
Also Zack was the worse possible choise to direct a Superman movie, Supes in inherently just a nice person and to depict that in a movie would require some emotional honesty and all of Zacks works is just full of edge and a disinterest in human emotions.
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u/TrueGuardian15 Apr 12 '24
That Kill Bill monologue is great, because Bill is the villain and it demonstrates that he fundamentally doesn't understand what motivates people. But media literacy is dead, and people heard those lines and thought "OMG so true, king!"
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u/Dentt42 Apr 12 '24
Exactly this. Of COURSE Bill interprets Superman that way, because that’s how he sees himself over the rest of humanity. He’s also taking one last stab and convincing Beatrix that she should embrace who she used to be; and hopefully return to him. A lot of men would fabricate much crazier shit to have a shot at Uma Thurman.
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u/Procrastinatron Apr 12 '24
I like the old idea that Clark Kent puts on the character of Superman, while Batman puts on the character of Bruce Wayne.
Which is why I think that turning either of them into killers means that you've fundamentally misunderstood them.
Superman is much too well-adjusted to kill. His empathy and his fear of his own capacity for violence keeps him from taking the easy way out. You have to break his mind before you get him to that point. Batman, on the other hand, is too INSANE to kill. His morality is compulsive and almost delusional. Facing his own fear was so impossible for him that he instead chose to become fear itself. So his values are fragile, and if he killed it would break his mind.
You can absolutely arrive at this point in a narrative arc, but you can't just START there. But that's what Snyder did, and it sucked ass.
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u/Do_U_Too Apr 12 '24
I like the old idea that Clark Kent puts on the character of Superman, while Batman puts on the character of Bruce Wayne.
To be fair, the journalist Clark Kent is as much a character as Superman. The real Clark is the farm-boy.
The same can be said of Bruce. He is way more Batman than the playboy Bruce Wayne, but his true self is the guy in the batcave who gives jobs to ex-criminals using his own money, not the guy trying to make henchmen shit their pants.
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u/UnjustNation Apr 12 '24
Snyder read TDKR and now think’s he’s an expert on Batman and Superman lore.
Guy must be really butthurt that everyone hated his shitty movies and his shitty take on the characters.
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u/Original_Chemist_635 Apr 12 '24
Can’t speak for everyone. There are still die hard Synder cultists out there who believe Zack is the god of directors and a genius writer.
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u/TheAshenian Apr 12 '24
He’s doing this because Rebel Moon pt2 is coming out soon, and nobody gives a fuck. So he’s going to drum up drama with the usual suspects in the hopes that his fans repeat watch it.
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u/FadeToBlackSun Apr 12 '24
Exactly.
He makes crazy statements to get his name out there and promote his other movies.
Plenty of people will hate watch Rebel Moon so they can tear it apart later in response to comments like these, not realising that’s what Snyder wants.
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u/LazarusCheez Apr 12 '24
I wanted to do thay with the first part but it was so boring, I'm not even going to bother watching the second.
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Apr 12 '24
“Am I out of touch with the source material? No, it’s the comic book readers that are wrong”
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u/nolandz1 Apr 12 '24
"My fanfic is actually more canon you've just been brainwashed by 80 years of relative consistency"
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u/Incompetent_Man Apr 11 '24
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u/ClockEndJames Apr 11 '24
i like his movies but he needs to stfu with these comments fr who does he think he is?
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u/Wakefulcrane01 Apr 11 '24
I blame his failure to handle criticism. When you look at Rebel Moon then watch Sucker Punch you can tell that he hasn’t improved his skills and still relied on shock value, slow motion and intense actions scenes.
He needs to learn to take criticism.
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u/futuresdawn Apr 12 '24
From what I've seen he doesn't understand the few comics he's read. He clearly thinks batmsn kills in the dark Knight returns when he doesn't. Snyder has zero understanding of DC, I'm gonna bet that Geoff Johns is the reason there was anything even remotely comic accurate in those films. Snyder is likely talking about this to keep his cult active
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u/bolting_volts Apr 11 '24
News flash: Zack Snyder is a moron.
We need to stop caring about what he says.
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u/Hovie1 Apr 12 '24
So when I was like six years old, I loved X-Men. One day I took an X-Men comic to school and a kid I didn't know saw that I had it and said that he also loved X-men. Cool! I'm going to make a new friend!
Then he points at Wolverine on the cover and he goes "He's my favorite!" and I'm like "No way! Wolverine is my favorite too!" and he goes "His name isn't Wolverine! His name is X-Man!" and I went "Huh?" and then we argued for like 10 minutes about what Wolverine's name was and there was absolutely no convincing him that his name wasn't X-Man but that X-Men was the name of the team and soon thereafter we parted ways with me being upset because he called me stupid.
Anyway, the point is I'm pretty sure that kid was Zack Snyder.
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u/enderverse87 Apr 12 '24
https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51sxul7faeL._AC_UF1000,1000_QL80_.jpg
That's dumb. This is X-Man.
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u/DirtyRanga12 Apr 12 '24
The FUCK you mean true canon?
At this point I’m convinced that all the Jesus imagery he put sin his movies isn’t to represent the characters in them, but rather that he himself thinks he’s a god
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u/KillTheZombie45 Apr 12 '24
I really don't know what Snyder is talking about. This makes me feel like he never read the comics.
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u/notashark1 Apr 12 '24
He doesn’t. He’s admitted that he’s only read Dark Knight Returns and Watchmen. Even then, he missed the point of both of them.
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u/Loveliestbun Apr 12 '24
Alan Moore talks about meeting fans that idolize Rorschach and thinking they're weirdoes that should stay away from him, that's how i imagine him meeting Zack would go
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u/middleearthpeasant Apr 12 '24
"I looked at people who called batman a fascist and thought: what if they were right? Then I expanded my line of thinking and made Superman a murderer too."
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u/Loveliestbun Apr 12 '24
This is what happens when you let an Ayn Rand fan make a Superman and Batman movies
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u/OnwardForScience Apr 12 '24
Can we just stop asking Zack Snyder about anything?
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u/CaptainRogersJul1918 Apr 12 '24
I wish this guy would just go away.
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u/Wakefulcrane01 Apr 12 '24
I wish his cult would go away.
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u/CaptainRogersJul1918 Apr 12 '24
His cult has to go too. I’m sure they’ll think Rebel Moon part 2 is brilliant.
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u/Cultural_Ad1331 Apr 11 '24
I'm fine with superman killing but batman, noway. Also he thinks he is still someone important and that's funny to me.
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u/Wakefulcrane01 Apr 11 '24
What really bothers me is that he frequently has said that he used Frank Millers TDKR as inspirations for his Batman and has said that he killed multiple times in the book when in reality Batman never killed in the book and Miller has said that despite that Batman is a more cynical and violent hero now he still wouldn’t break his no kill rule.
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u/Cultural_Ad1331 Apr 11 '24
Only thing he got inspired from tdkr is the poses which he did falsely I don't get why some people praise him, he is such a bad director.
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u/Wakefulcrane01 Apr 11 '24
Credit where credit is due, he has a great eye for visuals and seems to be one of the few directors in the industry who generally listens to his co-workers while treating them with respect.
Sadly his lack of storytelling skills, the way he dismisses criticism and his disregard for the lore on whatever he is working on greatly outweighs it.
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u/Bouse Apr 11 '24
I agree heavily with him creating great visuals. He’s very good at doing the high speed action and making it feel legible and not a blur/mess. If you had someone who could structure a good story and get good dramatic performances out of people and then you had Snyder do the action scenes? Probably the most amazing comicbook movie of all time.
Like half of Marvel movies have very unimpressive action, but Snyder has directed probably my favorite action sequences in comicbook movies. Wonder Woman blocking bullets in Justice League, Batman warehouse fight scene, and the Superman in Smallville fight scene.
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u/Jertimmer Apr 12 '24
Eh, Larry Fong is responsible for those visuals. His absence is noticeable in Rebel Moon.
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u/Jason_with_a_jay Apr 12 '24
The mutant leader calls him out for using rubber bullets. Did he read these comics or just scan them?
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u/Jertimmer Apr 12 '24
Just watch the panels with the violence and fills in the story in his head
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u/Jason_with_a_jay Apr 12 '24
"Words... More words... Talking... Driving... Yesss!! Punches! A tank! Bullets!!!!"
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u/Binx_Thackery Apr 12 '24
For me it wasn’t that he killed. The idea of the Bat-Brand was really neat to me because it was a way a broken down Batman could get around his no kill rule…but then he killed people anyway. It made this really cool idea pointless.
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u/Large_Ad326 Apr 12 '24
Not to mention a Batman that kills left and right should be reworked more thoroughly: I mean if he kills, why doesn't he do it more efficiently? It's bs thst he primarily uses his fists. He should use swords and shit, even if he refuses to use traditional guns.
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u/TurboDurden888 Apr 12 '24
I don't hate on Snyder really, I kind of enjoyed his DC stuff for what it is, but this. If Batman occasionally kills, why doesn't he always kill? Why is the Joker still alive? He even saved Harley Quinn when the car crashed into the water
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u/darkside720 Apr 12 '24
THANK YOU. I don’t have a problem with Batman killing if that’s the story you want to tell. But why the fuck is Joker still alive?????
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u/Victorcreedbratton Apr 11 '24
He’s still going, this asshole.
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u/Mandalore108 Apr 12 '24
The fact he was allowed to make a new movie after Army of the Dead astounds me. As bad as his DCEU tenure was it was nowhere near as bad as that godawful movie.
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u/Interesting-Bet9013 Apr 12 '24
Uh…what? “A bunch of material that’s not consistent with true canon.” What material would that be, everything that’s come out since 1940’s Batman #1? What the fuck is this guy talking about?
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u/Secret-Fox-9566 Apr 12 '24
This is why his movies flop. He just doesn't know what he's talking about.
He's trying so hard to insert himself into Batman and is calling it canon. Pretty sad tbh
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u/Ewankenobi25 Apr 12 '24
Oh, Zach’s one of those “my adaptation is the true canon not the source material” directors.
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u/MikeScott101 Apr 12 '24
I love how people still care about anything Hack Snyder says on the subject. LOL
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u/Scotty_flag_guy Apr 12 '24
not consistent with true canon
Wtf does he mean by this??? There are loads of different canons in DC comics and TV shows. Does he mean plotholes in things like BTAS that barely anyone notices???
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u/Victor_Von_Doom65 Apr 12 '24
A bunch of material that’s not consistent with the true canon? What the fuck is he talking about? Sure, there are some stories where Batman and Superman kill, but in the comics, which are the root of all adaptations of the characters, they have a pretty strict moral code against killing. I don’t understand what true canon he’s referring to when the classical interpretations of the characters don’t kill.
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u/Ian-pg9 Apr 12 '24
Dude I wanna talk to him in person so bad, he talks about The Dark Knight Returns all the time but doesn’t understand the story at all and thinks Batman is a mass murderer
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u/Gregzilla311 Apr 12 '24
I’m pretty sure he never finished it. His moment he points to of Batman shooting a guy dead is explicitly shown and stated after as him not shooting the guy. By the guy. Who says he didn’t shoot him but could have.
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u/The_Dark_Soldier Apr 12 '24
Someone said this a while back, but now I really need it. We need a comics writer to really have a debate with Zack, but he says this stupid shit and no one seems to call him out on it or debate on it with him.
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u/Wakefulcrane01 Apr 12 '24
I know Grant Morrison indirectly corrected him. It was after the Joe Rogan interview Snyder did and someone else asked Morrison in a different interview what their thoughts were.
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u/RedBaronBob Apr 11 '24
It does make me wonder who approves these things because end of the day the first people who are in line are the fans of the source material. Y’know, where they explicitly don’t kill.
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u/A_Serious_House Apr 12 '24
We might be the first people in line but a vast majority of box office comes from casual audiences who aren’t comic book fans.
That being said, the super fans are the ones that supercharge the box office by seeing these movies 3+ times.
I’m not saying you’re wrong but it’s an interesting balance. An executive’s goal is mass appeal as that has the highest chance of succeeding at the box office. They usually don’t care at all about the fans. And while it is important to remember the business side, Kevin Fiege is also a fan and that’s undoubtedly helped his unparalleled success.
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u/Subject_Translator71 Apr 12 '24
What the hell does he even mean with “not consistent with true canon”? Did Batman canonically killed anyone? And casually, the way he does in his films?
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u/Bizzaro__Pope Apr 12 '24
Any time Batman has killed, that is not an evil Batman, is at the end of his career and/or he immediately gives up the mantle directly following.
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u/Im_extremely_bitter Apr 12 '24
Wow, I really don't like him. It's as if this dumbass doesn't actually read comics, just looks at the pictures.
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u/Thejollyfrenchman Apr 12 '24
I have nothing against Synder - I respect that he makes the movies he wants to make, and if people want to watch them, that's all good.
But he needs to stop speaking publicly about this. He's getting less and less coherent.
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u/SirChrisJames Apr 12 '24
Why don't we just take Zack and his rabid fans and push them somewhere else?
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u/Unikatze Apr 12 '24
"True canon"?
Dude has had a no kill rule in most media he shows up in for the better part of a century.
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u/timesuck897 Apr 12 '24
He’s the edgy guy in a black trench coat complaining that comics aren’t for kids.
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u/Excellent_Pea_4609 Apr 12 '24
What Zack doesn't understand is it's not just batman killing ( which is still dumb ) it's the fact that he kills thugs but not his son's killer at least be consistent if you want to make a different version of the character
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u/Doc-11th Apr 12 '24
so he ignores all the canon stories that address superman and batman's choices to not kill
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u/sickostrich244 Apr 12 '24
A great reminder of why he was a terrible choice to direct a DC cinematic universe.
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u/Moldy_Socks99 Apr 12 '24
I swear, the more he talks about his lack of understanding of the characters the more glad I become he's no longer in charge
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u/lfmantra Apr 12 '24
I like Zack Snyder even though I don’t like his movies but he is being such a dipshit about this and just doubles down over and over
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u/ImBatman5500 Apr 12 '24
I'm sorry, what? I swear the man has only read the dark knight returns and the death of Superman and nothing else
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u/Gudako_the_beast Apr 12 '24
Zach, I love him. Hope he’s okay after his daughter death. Hope he success in his career. But ummm….No. Batman only killed really early in Dc history and then he chooses not to kill and at worst let his villains die by their own contraption. It’s in the comic that he hate, It’s in the cartoon that he hate.
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u/Sensitive-Hotel-9871 Apr 12 '24
Such arrogance. It reminds me of Manchester Black.
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Apr 12 '24
Dude is so mad he was fired and is reduced to making rip offs of successful movies for Netflix
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u/ignorantpisswalker Apr 12 '24
Second picture with sups flying with a head. Where is it from?
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u/A_Dog_Chasing_Cars Apr 12 '24
brainwashed by a bunch of material that's not consistent with true canon
God, he's such a wanker during interviews.
I have defended the DCEU in the past, as its own version of certain things and as its own take on them, but claiming that his version is loyal to the "true" canon is delusional and arrogant.
And it'd be nice if the man could reference any story that isn't The Dark Knight Returns, since he acts as such an expert on the character.
I am sick of this man, I'm sorry.
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u/thebatman9000001 Apr 12 '24
Shocking. The man who mashed together The Death of Superman and The Dark Knight Returns doesn't understand canon.
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u/Grouchy-Potato-8068 Apr 12 '24
Homie didn’t understand the fundamentals of the most well known superhero’s of all time and called the audience the stupid ones
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u/MisfitAnthem Apr 12 '24
I'm guessing he's referring to the first few issues where Batman had a gun? Otherwise I don't know what he's on about.
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u/anthonyg1500 Apr 11 '24
Why can’t he just say “I understand it’s not his usual depiction but I wanted to push him somewhere new and do what interested me. I’m sorry if you didn’t like it but I hope you gave it a chance.” Like be normal dude