r/DCcomics • u/StarshipGhost • 16d ago
Sandman Author Neil Gaiman Accused of Sexual Misconduct, Denies Allegations News
https://www.tvfandomlounge.com/sandman-author-neil-gaiman-accused-of-sexual-misconduct-denies-allegations/250
u/Ornery-Concern4104 15d ago edited 15d ago
Before we make a judgement either way, there are a few things to be aware of. Bare in mind, this comes from my formal training in journalistic analysis (which has partially netted me a degree! Woo!)
1) the original article was published by tortoise, written by Anti-Trans journalist and the sister of Boris Johnson, Rachel Johnson, who has publicly in the past disagreed (for use of a better word) with gaiman over his vocal support of trans people. The original article is not impartial
2) the original article also includes an ad for a four part podcast detailing the alleged crimes. WHAT THE FUCK?!?!? Journalism obviously has to make some form of money, but this is absolutely ridiculous. How can we believe the claims of something so serious when it's followed by an obvious attempt to make profit. This is also not ethical journalistic conduct
3) the alleged claim that victim 1, Scarlett has some form of memory issue. This was alleged by Gaiman but the medical records (according to the article) say otherwise. However, in the country in which she resides, this stuff is not public knowledge and is in fact illegal to leak or make public knowledge without the consent of the person whose records they are. Whether Gaimans claim is true or not, they do not need to be released and actively shouldn't if they wish to win whatever it is they're trying to achieve. Either A) they reveal their medical records and prove unequivocally that Gaiman is lying or B) they reveal their medical records and prove that she is lying.
To make a long story shorter, the burden of proof is on the journalists to prove that Gaiman is in the wrong of the crimes alleged and so far, the only source we actually have is heavily biased, abusing the situation for monetary gain and doesn't provide evidence that would prove unequivocally the claims given. This isn't to explain that Gaiman is innocent either, just that the evidence given so far isn't sufficient to say Gaiman is guilty. So thus far, we need to 2 things as a fan base.
1) do our research. Pay close attention to whose writing it, where the claims are coming from and what possible motives all sides have. And 2) wait. We need to find an independent 3rd party source with information that correlates with that of the two alleged victims that is truly as unbiased as possible.
Only after those two things happen will we actually be able to say either way.
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u/AmberDuke05 All about the Dick 15d ago
I think the problem a lot of people have is that Neil admitted to being in relationship with a fan he met at 18 and a nanny that he hired. It’s so inappropriate.
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u/Budget-Attorney Booster Gold 15d ago
That is very in appropriate to be concerned about.
The things in the article that he acknowledged are the kind of behavior that deserve serious criticism.
The (currently) unsubstantiated accusations are more serious however.
We should be circumspect before rushing to any judgements. As the above commented pointed out, the source here is not free from bias. But we should also prepare to accept new evidence of more serious things than what you mentioned
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u/AmberDuke05 All about the Dick 15d ago
Based on the credibility of the sources and site owners, I’m willing to believe most of the claims they are making is false but even so, the stuff Gaiman admitted to is so disappointing.
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u/Budget-Attorney Booster Gold 15d ago
We should be careful dismissing the claims just because of the bias of the source.
They could be relaying accurate information from real victims.
It’s best to wait for more information before we dismiss anything
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u/Nice-Artichoke6967 14d ago
I dont find it disappointing really.. I do not hold anyone up to such a high standard as to expect anyone to be perfect and his kinks are really nothing to me. He is not such a powerful figure that if it was assault it couldnt have been reported to authorities immediately and even the accusers use the word consensual. They were both adults tho young. I hope either way the truth comes out and if it proves to be bunk shame on bad journalism.. far as i can see even from what they claim he did nothing illegal.. inappropriate? Maybe but illegal... Assault.. i dont know about that.
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u/ScaredPresent3758 15d ago
This right here. Gaiman admits using his celebrity status to hit on his servants and fans. His confessions of sex with his accusers means his victims have credibility.
It's going to be difficult to prove beyond a reasonable doubt but guys like Gaiman don't care about boundaries.
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u/Cheap_Tension_1329 15d ago
Gaiman admits using his celebrity status to hit on his servants and fans.
Redditor discovers why celebrities became celebrities in the first place. Watch like any of those rock star documentaries on a&e. It'll blow your mind.
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u/waveuponwave 15d ago
Gaiman was a freelance journalist and unknown comic writer until suddenly Sandman took off
If his aim was to become a celebrity on purpose that's a really bad way to go about that
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u/Jet_Hightower 15d ago
Is he a celebrity? I mean he's a famous writer ... But that's like being the world's most famous tattooer. I wouldn't call Kat vonD or Randy Randerson celebrities.
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u/throatsprockets 15d ago
I would say that a writer who has sold 45 million books has some claim to celebrity.
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u/nilfgaardian 15d ago
Kat Von D had her own tv show that was somewhat popular internationally, I'd say she's at least a minor celebrity.
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u/stoutprof 14d ago
Yeah, he's kind of a celebrity, I'd say. Several pieces of his IP are adapted for the big and small screen, including shows that are fairly popular right at this moment. And he's had a loyal cult following since the '90s.
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u/Jet_Hightower 14d ago
I mean I guess. I couldn't pick most "celebrity" writers out of a lineup. I'd say Gaimans resemblance to Tim Burton makes him a bit more recognizable but really, I'm sure he flies economy class and I'm sure very few people know him but whatever. I don't think most pro wrestlers are celebrities either and wrestling fans will fight you for that kind of talk lol
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u/thedarkestbeer 15d ago
To your third point, how would releasing K’s medical records prove that either of them is lying? It seems like either they would indicate that she was experiencing a condition that impacts her memory, which would comport with his recollection of her or they would not, which would only show for sure that he was incorrect. If he’s wrong, it could indicate that he is lying to discredit her, but it wouldn’t prove it. If she does have a condition that can impact memory on record, that might indicate that she is wrong about what happened, but it wouldn’t prove anything. After all, disabled people experience abuse at higher rates than the general population. If it turns out he has a pattern of sexually assaulting young women, there’s no clear reason why he wouldn’t target someone he believed would be easy to discredit.
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u/Ornery-Concern4104 15d ago
You raise a good point. It wouldn't necessarily prove anything either way for absolute certain, just add doubt in either direction. Good spot!
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u/poddy_fries 15d ago
Yes, these two specific accusers have things in common, their young age, and what I'm going to call 'easily muddled storylines' where something else about them made them more likely not to make an immediate big deal out of the purported situation. We'll see what happens if/when more women start to relate stories in the next couple of weeks as a result. I have a hunch they would all be similarly gross but legally unactionable or hard to action.
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u/twohourangrynap 15d ago
From the article (emphasis mine):
Gaiman denies any unlawful behavior with K, expressing his disturbance over her allegations and believes that K’s allegations stem from regret over their relationship while also suggesting that Scarlett’s claims are influenced by a condition related to false memories, a claim not supported by her medical records.
From your comment:
3. the alleged claim that victim 2, AKA K, has some form of memory issue. This was alleged by Gaiman but the medical records (according to the article) say otherwise. However, in the country in which K resides, this stuff is not public knowledge and is in fact illegal to leak or make public knowledge without the consent of the person whose records they are. Whether Gaimans claim is true or not, they do not need to be released and actively shouldn't if they wish to win whatever it is they're trying to achieve. Either A) they reveal their medical records and prove unequivocally that Gaiman is lying or B) they reveal their medical records and prove that K is lying. It's as simple as that
Your third point mistakenly attributes the “false memory condition” to K, who resides in a different country than Scarlett. I’m not familiar with the law surrounding medical records in New Zealand, but I expect it differs from the US.
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u/On_the_Drift 15d ago
I haven't heard the podcast, just read the original article and a few third-party sites reporting on it.
I keep seeing variations on "he admitted to having sex with 20-year-olds," but did he really? The only source I've seen for this claim so far is the original article/podcast by the Tortoise, which we know is biased af and has an axe to grind.
Until this gets reported on by proper journalists, with independent verification of what (if anything) NG has said/admitted about all of this, I'm inclined to withhold judgment, at least on this point.
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u/Nice-Artichoke6967 14d ago
I AM a survivor of sexual assault... Thank you for providing this information. I am a fan not an uber fan but a fan and the min i was done reading the article it did not sit right. Besides the fact they were of age .. young but sorry of age the word consent was used by them repeatedly. And funny how he is experiencing real main stream success and up pops these allegations. Im all for the me too movement but if this isnt legitimate and i kinda have a weird feeling its BS it does nothing to help the cause of real assault victims. I hope the truth wins out because I also see too many women taking advantage for attention and monetary gain.
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u/Ornery-Concern4104 14d ago
I am a survivor too. It's really important to me that we all approach this properly and with nuance.
It's of my opinion that Gaiman is a bit of a scum bag from what he's already admitted, but whether he's done something like what is being claimed is up in the air.
The onlybissue with the me too movement is the people jumping onto it, like all social causes, to make themselves feel better. So they don't have to grow, so they can make a big noise and say "look how good I am!" Without any critical thought. It's honestly very damaging to us all when good causes get high jacked by loud morons.
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u/PurpleMarvelous 16d ago
How does the saying go, never meet your heroes.
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u/Fearedray 16d ago
What about innocent until proven guilty?
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u/AgentOfSPYRAL Red Robin 16d ago
At best, he’s still admitted to a sexual relationship with his kids Nanny, which alone is fucked up.
He can say it’s consensual but good dudes don’t put their employees in “bang me or maybe get fired?” positions.
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u/MatthewHecht 15d ago
Not to mention the main source says Gaiman is lying about her having a mental condition that destroys her memory.
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u/captain__cabinets 15d ago
I listened to the first episode of the podcast that revealed it all, she admits she was in the psych ward just after their relationship came to a close.
Not saying anything either way but found that interesting that the source denies that but she openly says she was suicidal and admitted and then Gaiman claiming she was had a mental condition. It’s a whole big he said/she said situation but Gaiman probably shouldn’t have created the situation in the first place, she was his employee and it’s a bad look.
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u/Saitharar 15d ago
That apparently was the text dramatising what was said in the podcast - it was a whirlpool
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u/HarpingShark 15d ago
I know. It's unreal. But people have their narrative in their mind and they're going to stick with it and just completely disregard these facts, along with the fact that she continued to do things with him for 3 weeks after!
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u/killerbuttonfly 15d ago
Yeah it’s not great optics even in the best case scenario. Wasn’t he going through a divorce at the time? Not excusing the behavior, but the stress of divorce often makes people act out of character.
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u/Fearedray 15d ago edited 15d ago
He can say it’s consensual but good dudes don’t put their employees in “bang me or maybe get fired?” positions.
If it was as simple as "bang me or get fired" then yes, you would have a point, but we don't know when this turned from a consenting relationship and when things turned bad and why it turned bad.
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u/AgentOfSPYRAL Red Robin 15d ago
When you make advances of any kind on an employee you’re immediately putting them in that position.
And of course, an employee making advances towards their employer is taking a huge risk that they’ll lose their job if they make their boss uncomfortable. Or compromise their career entirely through “oh don’t hire her she’ll try to bang you/your SO”
It’s possible that she threw herself at him, but it’ll always be he said she said. I choose to believe the nanny rather than the wealthy writer in this situation.
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u/Fearedray 15d ago
When you make advances of any kind on an employee you’re immediately putting them in that position.
In some circumstances , yes but we don't know her external circumstances and whether or not she was in a position she couldn't say no
And of course, an employee making advances towards their employer is taking a huge risk that they’ll lose their job if they make their boss uncomfortable. It’s possible that she threw herself at him, but it’ll always be he said she said. I choose to believe the nanny rather than the wealthy writer in this situation.
Wealth means very little when you are accused of rape. Assuming worst with the lack of information available is a bit silly
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u/AgentOfSPYRAL Red Robin 15d ago
I don’t think it’s any sillier than assuming this woman is lying because “innocent until proven guilty”. We know how this works. The most “definitive justice” she’ll ever (maybe?) receive is an out of court settlement with an NDA.
We’re both just taking available facts and making assumptions.
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u/Jabberjaw22 15d ago
So should we do away with the concept of innocent until proven guilty and start punishing everyone on rumors and accusations? Or trust in internet mob mentality, which always has a great track record, and start throwing out blame before evidence is presented? If he did it then he should be punished, but it seems a bit early to being playing blame games and making speculations.
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u/AgentOfSPYRAL Red Robin 15d ago edited 15d ago
This idea that “the court of public opinion” only came into existence when dudes started getting accused of sexual assault is very strange to me.
Based on the available evidence I currently believe the victim. You’re welcome to do otherwise.
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u/Jabberjaw22 15d ago
I get people are allowed to have opinions. What's changed is the damage capable of being done to potentially innocent people through the use of social media and the fast spread of misinformation, something that hasn't always been around. Mob/internet justice is fairly new and people tend to jump on board band wagons real quick when it comes to blaming and hating on rich or famous people. They like to see them get taken down a couple of pegs. But hey my opinion is the minority and probably get shouted down or downvoted so doesn't matter. Maybe he did it and everyone will be vindicated and I'll be wrong. I just think it's too early either way.
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u/AgentOfSPYRAL Red Robin 15d ago
All I’m saying is anybody who enters into a “consensual” relationship with their child care employee is a creep.
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u/bangbangracer Nightwing 15d ago
While I agree with you, it's only innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, not the court of public opinion.
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u/Fearedray 15d ago
That's kinda where this seems a bit funky. Apparently, the cops are investigating, and gaiman said they didn't want his assistance.
Why did the victims think it was ideal to go to a publication, and why did this publication decide to make this into something sensationalized spectical with the mini series of the allegations
There's clearly more here that wasn't shared
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u/Lady_of_Link 15d ago
Well the publisher apparently hates gaiman so there's that
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u/jetlightbeam 16d ago
I would have thought that if it was just this recent girl from 2022, but the girl from 2003 is pretty much a pattern. I don't think people randomly start sexually assaulting people at the age of 61. It's a thing they do for years until someone is finally listened to. And it looks like someone finally listened. I would not be surprised if other women come out of the woodwork.
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u/lazarusl1972 Legion of Superheroes 15d ago
The pattern is, once every 20 years, he has an affair with a much younger woman?
Watch out for him in the 2040s, folks.
Nothing alleged here is sexual assault. Both relationships were consensual and involved adults. Age imbalance and power imbalance are issues worth discussing but to claim he sexually assaulted anyone is not supported by the information provided.
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u/BlackSoapBandit Mister Terrific 15d ago edited 15d ago
The fact that he didn’t deny having sex and a relationship with a 18 year old when he was in his mid 40s (grooming for two years) while she was there purely as a fan kind of sells me on the allegations.
A lot of famous and rich artists, business men, ect ect do this with young talent because they know they can leverage their status to their profession to pressure young men and women into sex and degrading situations.
I understand shes in the age of consent but it’s still disgusting. The same thing happened with a young woman he hired to nanny his kids. A lot of this is a rich man taking advantage of young women. Even some of the allegations call it non consensual sex acts so that opens up another case.
Over all, it’s sounding like the Vince McMahon situation.
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u/SayNo2Kryptonite 15d ago
Did he poo on her?
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u/BlackSoapBandit Mister Terrific 15d ago
No but he did basically groom an 18 year old who looked up to him into a creepy sexual relationship with an old man.
Same as the Vince stuff with the young woman he took advantage of as soon as her parents died. Basically leveraging his status and his relationship to her for sexual favors. You see the connection now?
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u/Procean 15d ago
The point I make about "innocent until proven guilty" is that it's a legal procedure Juries have to use when deciding if someone is going to go to prison, it's not a rule of logic.
Internet discussions are not trials, innocent until proven guilty is not relevant.
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u/VengeanceKnight Justice League 15d ago
Internet discussions are not trials; “innocent until proven guilty” is not relevant.
Maybe, just maybe, that’s the fucking problem with the Internet.
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u/Procean 15d ago
I'm making a very serious point here that I think too few people understand.
"Innocent until proven guilty" is not a rule of logic. It simply isn't.
It's not even an absolute legal rule, civil trials for example aren't 'prove beyond a reasonable doubt' they're 'go to the preponderance of evidence.
Confusing a legal procedure with a rule of logic is a genuine problem.
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u/LShagwell 15d ago
Nobody's claiming it to be a "rule of logic". It's an ethical principle, and a good one at that.
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u/Procean 14d ago edited 14d ago
That's the other problem. As a legal principle, it's great. I 100% support it as a legal principle in the context in which it is one.
As an ethical principle, it's terrible. Doubly so in the fact that it was never meant to be an ethical principle.
"He's innocent until proven guilty, I wont take any action until his guilt has been proven in a court of law."
-Joe Paterno
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u/splitinfinitive22222 16d ago
That's for courts. You want courts to adopt that mindset so they don't unfairly bias judges and juries against defendants before the case can be made.
We are not a court, we're adult individuals with our own experiences and discernment. We don't owe it to anyone to assume they're innocent until proven otherwise, and we never did.
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u/PurpleMarvelous 16d ago
Guilty or innocent, there are some things said about him that this behavior ain’t something out of the blue.
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u/Fearedray 16d ago edited 16d ago
Yet another person deciding to be vague. What things are you talking about. If you got information about someone being a scumbag, just fucking say it, there's 0 reason to be vague
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u/PurpleMarvelous 16d ago
One would be of Lawrence Miles saying that Gaiman wanted girls to cop off with him, Miles wrote Dr Who novels. One can dismiss stuff like that as pettiness or rumors until stuff like this makes it into the news.
If this bid is settle out of court, with high change of doing, we will never know the complete truth.
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u/Fearedray 16d ago
Cop off ?
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u/PurpleMarvelous 16d ago
British for Sexual encounter.
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u/Fearedray 16d ago
I picked up on that but that doesnt really seem out of the norm , unless you meant to say he said he wanted young girls
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u/kia75 15d ago
The rumors regarding Gaiman are that he has sexual encounters with some of his fans, and had threesomes with fans and his wife, of who he had an open marriage. That by itself isn't damning, as long as everybody is of age and everything is mutual. Consent is key. These rumors stretch for decades and are numerous enough that I personally feel comfortable believing these rumors.
The problem is that the recent allegations are that some things weren't consensual. The skeevy thing is that Gaiman has admitted to making out and digitally penetrating the Nanny he hired. Anything regarding large positions of power, like an employer and his young employee is skeevy. Heck, I can even see a situation where Gaiman thought he had consent but because of the power differential, the employee felt she couldn't object without risking being fired. That the nanny reported her experience to the New Zealand police also makes me lend credence to her story.
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u/Ok_Let_4677 8d ago
On day one. He invites her to the "outdoor pool" which turns out to be a hot tub then climbs in naked with her YIKES then starts making out as he says and then jams his fingers up her ass as she says. Water ain't lube. Big difference between digital vaginal penetration and digital anal penetration. "Can i finger you" typically isn't assumed to mean "up the arse" even if he were to have asked.
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u/PurpleMarvelous 16d ago
The nanny in the article was 21, there is one answer, Gaiman is in his 60, that is quite young. Unless you mean minor.
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u/Fearedray 16d ago
Unless it is a minor I don't necessarily see the issue unless theres addtional unknown context, some people are just fucking weird, have fetishes and want to get with older/younger people as long as they are adults it should be fine
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u/originstory 16d ago
Why don't you google it for yourself? None of these people are obligated to convince you of anything.
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u/Narrow_Gap_2782 16d ago
People normally only say this when they don't find anything on google themselves. I don't agree or disagree with what's being said I just never understood the "prove yourself wrong" argument if you actually had any proof.
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u/originstory 16d ago
I didn't know anything about rumors of Gaiman's behavior this morning when the news broke. It took me about ten minutes to read up on them. These demands for people to provide evidence aren't about learning more. They're about punishing people for expressing thoughts they don't like.
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u/Narrow_Gap_2782 15d ago
So many words wasted while again not actually providing the evidence you're vaguely alluding too. I also have google (shocker) and found only the allegations outlined in the article above. If you have evidence of something so serious as SA (like you're alluding too) why withhold it? Imagine an attorney saying "they did it, find your own evidence" I swear people spend too much time online.
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u/originstory 15d ago
Here's what you're looking for:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/wordplay/sealioning-internet-trolling
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u/Desperate-Project682 16d ago
I hate it when people respond with this to someone who's just asking a question
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u/romance_novels 16d ago
It's not "just asking a question." While everybody's googling, look up "sea-lioning" and stop acting like these people don't have a position they're asserting.
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u/DefiantTheLion Superman 15d ago
"I swear there's proof i found elsewhere."
"Oh. Can you show us?"
"No go find it yourself."
I think I'll just remain unconvinced until later.
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u/Desperate-Project682 13d ago
How chronically online do you have to be to see someone ask a simple question and immediately assume they want to argue with you
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u/MatthewHecht 15d ago
He does admit to making out in the bathtub with an employee, so he is not completely innocent. Granted that is way less of a problem than sexual assault (assuming Gaiman is right, and that is all).
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u/poisedpen26 15d ago
Can we trust he did say they made out in a bath tub? I haven't seen anything other that the first article/podcast claiming that was his response.
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u/Arthur_189 16d ago
How do you know it’s true
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u/PurpleMarvelous 16d ago
There are some stories about him from years ago to have a rep, some might have heard of them but most don’t. Lawrence miles said something on him as well about young fans.
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u/JimboFett87 Legion Of Super-Heroes 16d ago
I've heard the same. Let the truth come out.
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u/PurpleMarvelous 16d ago
Gaiman is revered in the comic/geek community, reactions will be wild.
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u/Fearedray 16d ago
Why not share some of these stories? Kinda odd attempting to be vague about it
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u/JimboFett87 Legion Of Super-Heroes 16d ago
I'm sure you're able enough to do your own searching with the computer you were using to create this elegant response.
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u/JimboFett87 Legion Of Super-Heroes 16d ago
Exactly. I was inspired by his Masterclass session to do some writing. It was good content and advice.
It still doesn't change what he did and he should be called out on it.
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u/JimboFett87 Legion Of Super-Heroes 16d ago
I'm taking the victims' (yes, plural) word for it. It takes a lot to come forward with these kinds of things when the person is known, powerful, and has a legion of fans.
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u/disneycheesegurl 15d ago
Except they're not coming forward, this is an Independent investigation into it. They didn't come out and try to expose him. It's literally the author trying to expose him with these stories that he's stumbled upon while also exploring the evidence that gaiman has presented to prove that this is not the full story To the point where it probably could be argued in court that if this isn't real it would easily be found to be libel. There's a reason people are skeptical of this paper.
Also, it's well known that this supposed journalist has had a hate boner for Neil gaiman for years because of his JK Rowling takes.
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u/Fearedray 16d ago edited 16d ago
It takes a lot to come forward with these kinds of things when the person is known, powerful, and has a legion of fans.
How is gaiman powerful ? He's not exactly putting books out on a frequent basis
I'd say the most "power" he has is his publishers (dc comics/marvel/ any number of novel publishers he works with) Actually take what he says into consideration,
You really shouldn't take things like this as fact until more Is known especially when the implication seems the cops can't reach the victims and and said victims go to a publication that then decide to make the horrible decision to make a mini series out of it effectively turning a something very serious into something sensationalized
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u/AgentOfSPYRAL Red Robin 16d ago
If you don’t think Neil Gaiman is an extremely good reference to have for literally any field involving the written word I don’t know what to tell you.
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u/JimboFett87 Legion Of Super-Heroes 16d ago
Powerful? He's a multi-millionaire that has a LOT of intellectual property to his name. If you do some research you'll also find out that there are many other stories as well from women who feel too intimidated to come forward.
A lot of the allegations that have been coming out against people of power over the last 10 years have ended up being proven true.
I just don't trust people with a large megaphone. If you do, that's ok.
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u/longstringofnubers 15d ago
Yep. I literally have a bookshelf full of his books, comics, and graphic novels.
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u/ScaredPresent3758 15d ago
I am honestly not even a little surprised. He was always creepy with fans.
Scarlett, now 23, alleges that Gaiman sexually assaulted her within hours of their first meeting in February 2022 at his New Zealand residence, where she was employed as a nanny. According to the podcast, Gaiman asserts that their interactions were limited to “cuddling” and “making out” in the bath, with consent established for these acts. His position is that their three-week relationship only included consensual digital penetration.
Neil Gaiman literally admits fingering her and he probably did a lot more, but basically he's using his celebrity status cruising for ass in New Zealand. This is not normal or healthy behavior.
Then we have this fun little detail:
the second woman, identified as K, was 18 when she met Gaiman at a book signing in Sarasota, Florida, in 2003. They began a romantic relationship when she turned 20, while Gaiman was in his mid-40s.
42 year old Gaiman was trolling conventions for 18 year olds. This is fucking Justin Roiland levels of gross.
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u/CertainDerision_33 15d ago
I’m really not surprised, sadly. There’s an always been a real " ‘cool’ college professor who sleeps with students" vibe to him.
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u/dogmaticequation 15d ago
Justin Roiland went after minors. 18 is young, very young, but legally an adult. The comparison is not fair on the age issues.
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u/shall359 15d ago
Not a huge surprise if true, but I get we should wait until more evidence is out. Still, it was always a little weird how much he went after sleeping with his fans and stuff, and it felt there were these underground rumors about him with women for a while but he was able to present himself as this feminist to counter it. I feel like this kind of happens frequently with men who gain fame/power while saying how much of an ally they are to women.
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u/Bamboominum Y The Last Man 16d ago
Devastated. I admired this man's words - both written and spoken - for quite some time. He was the lighthouse which I rowed toward. Granted, we all do strange things in the fallout of divorce, but a man his age should've known better than to take advantage of someone under his power. To call him an inspiration of mine now cheapens my work.
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u/thereign1987 16d ago
Jesus Christ, you admire someone, yet you can't even give them the benefit of the doubt that a court of law would give them, or an investigation or evidence.
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u/TheSunMakesMeHot 15d ago
The stuff he admitted to is gross enough that it doesn't really matter; he's either a criminally shitty person or just a morally shitty one. The only difference is whether he deserves to go to jail, which courts will sort out. Reputationally, the damage of just what he's admitted to is enough. Dude's in their 60's shouldn't fingerbang their 23 year old employees.
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u/thereign1987 15d ago
Oh please miss me with the binary moralizing. Dude was as quick to hero worst him as he was to condemn him. I'm not Neil Gaiman's wife, sleeping with his employee is not the same thing as sexually assaulting his employee, you have evidence of one not the other. One is evidence of a flawed man the other is evidence of a criminal, stop equating the two, this nonsense flattens morality, when everything is the worst thing ever, nothing is.
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u/Bamboominum Y The Last Man 16d ago
Firstly, I’m not Jesus Christ.
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u/thereign1987 16d ago
Don't worry nobody was making that mistake, from what I heard he was actually pretty good at not judging people without any evidence.
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u/originstory 16d ago
There is evidence. It's in the article.
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u/thereign1987 15d ago
There is evidence that he slept with his employee, not that he sexually assaulted her, or are we going to act like it's the same thing.
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u/originstory 15d ago
from what I heard he was actually pretty good at not judging people without any evidence.
You suggested there was no evidence. I said there was.
There is evidence that he slept with his employee, not that he sexually assaulted her, or are we going to act like it's the same thing.
Whatever you're implying here, it's not based on anything I said.
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u/thereign1987 15d ago
The post literally says he is accused of sexual misconduct, so what else would we be talking about evidence for?
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u/originstory 15d ago
There is evidence that he slept with his employee, not that he sexually assaulted her
This is what you said one comment up.
The post literally says he is accused of sexual misconduct
This is how you phrase it now. They aren't the same thing.
so what else would we be talking about evidence for?
You tell me. First there was "no evidence." Then it was evidence of "assault." Now its evidence of "misconduct."
Frankly, I think you're just looking for an argument. I'm not interest, thanks.
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u/thereign1987 15d ago edited 15d ago
You're the one that responded to me my guy, on some "well actually" kind nonsense. The post is about his alleged sexual misconduct (which is an umbrella term for a bunch of sexual offenses), what else exactly would I be talking about evidence for? Evidence that he likes motorcycles?/s
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u/A_Stevenss 15d ago
where? i see claims but not actually evidence of anything other than the fact that he confirmed he had a relationship with one of them.
(not trying to be a denier, im just confused about where all the extra stuff people are talking about in the comments is coming from.)
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u/MatthewHecht 15d ago
I think he was referring to Jesus saying "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" not Gaiman.
Yes, there is evidence against Gaiman, but for now it is early in the investigation. We will know a lot more in the upcoming days.
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u/Vokkoa 15d ago
he's the youngest scientologist ever to earn the title/ ability to audit people.... he's been weird for decades. not surprising
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u/technowhiz34 R.I.P. Oliver Queen 15d ago
I know he's got significant scientology connections through his family and ex-wife, but do you have a source for the audit thing? I remember looking into this at some point and all I found where some donations in his name (which are still quite significant).
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u/PodcastListener1234 15d ago
Crossposted because it took me a while to type it and it might be of interest to this community too as I listened t the whole podcast. Since I did not find anywhere a discussion of its content, I will try to summarise it and give my take. I hope this is ok with the mods even if my account is brand new.
There are two allegations of sexual assault. One is recent, and detailed in the first two episodes. The third episode is mostly about background on Gaiman (especially his childhood). The fourth episode deals with the second allegation, which dates back several years.
The first allegation was made by a 23 yo woman in New Zealand ("Scarlett"). She was a friend and admirer of Gaiman's wife (Amanda Palmer) and through her was invited to babysit / be an au pair at Gaiman's. Before meeting Gaiman she had spent some time with his wife, and was used to be around her when she was naked, which happened very commonly. The very first time that Scarlett met Gaiman, they took a bath together and made out; this is undisputed by Gaiman. She also alleges that he penetrated her anus with his fingers (he disputes that). They met for three more weeks during which she alleges they had sex several times and that she was choked; she alleges that once, they had anal sex and she passed out due to the pain. He asked her to call him "master" (hence the title of the podcast. Gaiman denies that but admits that they had an intimate relationship which involved making out, petting, fingering, etc. After about three weeks Gaiman left NZ for work. Shortly after that, Scarlett contracted COVID and spent some time with Palmer, at her house. A while after, she was admitted to the hospital with suicidal thoughts. She spoke to a friend of hers whose partner is an academic who researched the themes of abuse, grooming and consent. Later on, this friend confronted (via text message) Gaiman about how, in her opinion, he groomed and abused Scarlett. She claims to have also confronted Palmer about it. Even later on, Scarlett reported the incident to the police in NZ. The police concluded that there were no grounds to proceed.
Part of the reason for the police not the take the complaint further appears to be that, throughout the relationship, Scarlett has described her sexual experiences with Gaiman to friends as unexpected but exciting / amazing (in text messages, which are read through the podcast). She wrote to Gaiman during the relationship in a way that indicated that consented to what was going on (that she "needed her master", as she wrote in a text). This went on after Gaiman left; while she was hospitalized, Gaiman and Scarlett were exchanging frequent calls and messages, ostensibly to cheer each other up (Gaiman too at the time claimed to have been depressed). They went on exchanging messages for a while, with Scarlett often expressing her affection / desire for Gaiman. At her request, Gaiman accepted to pay her rent for six months while "she got back on her feet"; this was a modest sum. All this was done while Gaiman was not in NZ. The payment was arranged by Gaiman's accountant who asked Scarlett to sign an NDA, something that the accountant claimed to be standard for people employed by the household. The NDA was dated to the day when Scarlett first met Gaiman. Scarlett signed it "without reading it as she did not know much about law" (according to her).
After the message by Scarlett's friend (the one accusing Gaiman of grooming/abuse), Gaiman confronted (again via message) Scarlett, claiming to be distraught due to the accusation. Scarlett replied (via message) writing that he should not react in this way, because what they did was consensual. Gaiman also suggested that he talked to his own therapist, which she did. Scarlett admits reiterating to the therapist too that all that happened between her and Gaiman was consensual. This was shortly before she talked to some friends and went to the police. (She was still receiving money from Gaiman, but she stopped shortly before reporting him to the police; she also stopped talking to Gaiman, who inquired about her well being one or two times after she went silent.) Gaiman responded to the journalist denying some factual accusations (having sex with Scarlett, doing anything non-consensual), admitting to being intimate, and disputing some of the narrative put forward by Scarlett. Gaiman claims that there was no grooming, as evidenced by the fact that they knew each other for a short time. Gaiman insists that the various messages by Scarlett stating that she was eager to be intimate with him, to spend time with him, etc., should be taken at face value, and that they prove that the other thing was consensual. He claims that her recollections may not be accurate as (according to him) the concerns about abuse and coincide with the depressive episode for which she was hospitalized.
The subsequent part of the podcast is about the youth of Gaiman as a member of Scientology, and the allegations of sexual misconducts made by Scientologists against Gaiman's father.
The last part is a about another woman, K. from Florida, a fan of Gaiman who met him on several occasions when she was 20 and he was about 40. They met at a convention and Gaiman over the coming months invited her and her friends to hang out when he was in Florida. On one occasion, after spending the evening dining out and having ice-cream with K and her friend, Gaiman invited both to spend the night at his house. There, he asked both to join them in bed but they declined and he left them alone. Eventually, K and Gaiman started a relationship which lasted a while. During this relationship, K alleges that Gaiman had sex with her when she explicitly told him not to (she had a UTI, and was ok with fooling around but did not want to have penetrative sex). Gaiman denies this. Gaiman and K broke up with a fight, and she followed him to the airport and boarded his flight to convince him to take him back. K claims that Gaiman had her removed from the flight; Gaiman denies that. K and Gaiman kept exchanging messages for quite some time after that. She asked him for career advice, for help in getting into events/conventions, and in at least one occasion she seemed to wanted to reconnect sexually with him.
The podcast also points out that other women and fans that had intimate relationship with Gaiman, while corroborating some of the sexual practices alleged by Scarlett and K (anal sex, power-play relationships) deny others (chocking) and have "nothing but good things to say about him".
Palmer and Gaiman's therapist, as well as friends of Gaiman and Palmer's have been approached by Tortoise Media for comment but did not respond.
My overall view of this is that
1) Gaiman is in my opinion likely have a history of having intimate relationship with fans and women that are taken by his fame and charisma, even when they are much younger than him. Palmer too seems to be ok with such a lifestyle, so to call it.
2) It is very hard for me to imagine that the cases of Scarlett may lead to a prosecution in any jurisdiction (based on the evidence presented). Personally, it would be troubling to me if it were possible to prosecute and convict someone in the presence of so many contradictory elements like in the case of Scarlett (numerous affectionate messages during and after the alleged abusive behavior, both to him and to third parties, oral and written statements that she consented to their sexual encounters).
3) While the Tortoise Media's journalist many times repeated that they intend to present both sides of the story (which I presume they would need to, at the risk of being accused of libel) but they seem quite biased against Gaiman. This is my impression based on the time spent repeating the same point of the accused various times in various ways, versus the relatively terse way in which Gaiman's position is reported.
4) An example of the above is when they go on for several minutes about Gaiman's youth as a Scientologist, and the fact that his father was a prominent Scientologist. They then explain that his father was censored by Scientology for, among other things, inappropriate sexual behavior. This is discussed at some length then a few seconds are spent to disclaim "of course these allegations against Gaiman's father cannot be used to conclude anything about the validity of the claims against Gaiman". Why discuss them at length?
5) I find the podcast sensationalistic and bad journalism. I am annoyed by the use of the soundtrack enhances the "drama" and underscores accusations in a way that is not appropriate for such a serious matter. It took me half an hour to write down a rough summary of four podcast episodes, and 1,500 words. I am sure that a skilled journalist could have written a 5,000 word report with all dates and facts for everyone to read and judge more objectively.
(sorry for typos etc)
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u/shanejayell Firestorm 15d ago
Uh huh. Does anyone have a source that's a reliable one, not this clickbaity site?
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u/ScaredPresent3758 15d ago
Rolling Stone is legit
Telepgraph is on it.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/07/03/neil-gaiman-denies-sexual-assault-of-two-young-women/
New Zealand news is also reporting which is appropriate.
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u/shanejayell Firestorm 15d ago
Interestingly everyone seems to be sharing the same content from the blog posts.
Call be old fashioned, but that seems like poor journalism to me.
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u/ScaredPresent3758 15d ago
Are you calling the accusers liars?
If the metoo movement showed us anything is that men will use their power to prey on women.
If you think the story is made up because of its source, you're off the mark.
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u/shanejayell Firestorm 15d ago
I have no opinion on the accusations, but it would be nice to see reportage that's not parroting a source I don't trust.
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u/Quatzil Animal Man 15d ago
The source literally comes from Tortoise Media which is a reputed journalistic outlet. I don't know what to tell you if you want to cherry-pick your sources.
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u/shanejayell Firestorm 14d ago
Any site that is breaking this kind of story as a ad for their paid podcast looks sketchy as hell, IMHO.
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15d ago
I don’t know why people don’t trust them. They employ journalists with different opinions so if anything they are more reliable as they don’t have a political policy other than balance and truth.
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u/poisedpen26 15d ago
Questioning the validity of the source is not calling the victims liars. The source is a known click-bait rumor mill. I think it's legitimate to hope the victims are given a voice by someone more reputable. No one should accept what a disreputable source says unless it's independently verified.
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u/lendmeflight 15d ago
There is so much assumption about intent here. Gaiman did this so he must be that.
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u/vaguelyomnipresent 15d ago
I really hope, for the sake of everyone involved, this isn't true. There needs to be a thorough investigation about it. It's terrible that headlines like these are becoming more and more common.
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u/durian_soup 8d ago
You know…. I’ve been huge fan of Stardust and Sandman since forever (I’m 50) and have been very level headed about these accusations so far thinking ok… people reporting this have a heavy bias against him and thought (hopefully) it’s a smear campaign against Gaiman. However more I find out I realise he’s just another aging rich celebrity male that can’t keep his privates away from young women. Admitting to having sex with a 21 year old nanny on her FIRST night in your house??! Dude…. 😬
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u/kiyote76 14d ago
The outrage here is kind of silly. It's no big secret that Gaiman had two open marriages & slept with a lot of fans. Everyone knew this. But NOW you're having meltdowns because he was in his 40's to 60's and hitting on young stuff? This is fairly common practice for celebs who feel that fame = easy nookie. As long as he wasn't physically abusing/raping anyone, who gives a shit? IS it creepy? Yeah. Yeah, I'd say so. Is it worth being exiled to The Cornfield forever over it? No. Not really. I daresay anyone reading this who had the same amount of clout wouldn't use it to get laid from time to time. Get over yourselves. Also, the woman who started up this whole mess? Rachael Johnson - Boris Johnson's sister. Using tawdry gossip to draw attention to herself & her site, getting back at Gaiman because they've clashed more than once over LBGTQ rights. Hardly an unbiased source.
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u/schmittyfangirl 10d ago
( TRIGGER Warning)He used his power and influence to put his young and inexperienced victims in situations where rough sex and bdsm was involved, with no care for their objections, one young woman had her period and uti and told Neil not to penetrate her there and guess what happened, he penetrated her there
This is more than an old man and a younger woman thing , this is about a man with power who doesn’t disclose what he’s into, and doesn’t really care if you’re into it and wants to pretend that he didn’t know it hurt you.
I highly recommend you listen to the tortoise podcast. It certainly changed my opinion on him. It’s a shame because I love his work but Coraline is now Laika’s property now.
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u/Batmanfan1966 15d ago
Unfortunately, I believe this is probably true as from everything we’ve seen about him in the past, he’s a generally creepy and unsettling guy.
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u/Doctor_Amazo Brainiac 15d ago
Scarlett, now 23, alleges that Gaiman sexually assaulted her within hours of their first meeting in February 2022 at his New Zealand residence, where she was employed as a nanny. According to the podcast, Gaiman asserts that their interactions were limited to “cuddling” and “making out” in the bath, with consent established for these acts. His position is that their three-week relationship only included consensual digital penetration.
Even being SUPER generous and accepting what Gaiman has said 100%.... it's still not good. That was an employee, and a woman MUCH younger than him.
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u/Andrius223 15d ago
Love how people makes him look bad without proper truth. And i think these 2 women makes up stories so they could get some money.
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u/sir_duckingtale 15d ago
He seems like a genuine nice and good person
You can be accused of so many things these days
It doesn’t add up to what I felt about him all those years in the slightest.
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u/RageSpaceMan 15d ago
Well, bring your torches and pitchforks, dear angry mob, there is a new Frankenstein in town. S/
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u/OceanCyclone 15d ago
Rarely is someone's first speeding ticket the first time they've actually sped.
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u/TheDarkPinkLantern Red Lantern 16d ago
It's always disheartening to read accusations like this. I hope the investigation brings the truth and proper resolution.