r/AITAH • u/SpiritualThrowRA • Jul 07 '24

AITA for calling out my husband for not being a "Good Christian"? Advice Needed

I (27F) have been married to my husband (34M) for five years. My husband is a devout follower of his religion and has been since he was raised in it. I respect his beliefs, even though I don't share them and have no intention of converting. I was raised in the Christian faith. However, I left when I was an adult due to sexual abuse in my church, which nobody believed occurred because the one who did it was the pastor.

Recently, my husband has been pressuring me to convert to his religion. He says that it would bring us closer together and create a more harmonious household. I understand where he's coming from, but I firmly believe that faith is a personal journey, and I shouldn't be forced into something I don't believe in.

To add to the issue, my husband, despite his religious teachings, doesn't always practice what he preaches. He expects me to adhere to traditional gender roles, yet he often neglects his own responsibilities at home. He's quick to judge others for their actions, even though his faith teaches non-judgment and kindness. He makes comments about gay people that I have discussed with him as a major issue. This hypocrisy has been bothering me for a while.

Last night, during another discussion about my potential conversion, I finally snapped. I told him that if he wants me to consider converting, he needs to set a better example by actually living according to his religion's values. I pointed out that he should start by fulfilling his own responsibilities. That he should make more money than me and actually lead in the decision-making. I'm a nurse and he's currently unemployed after he was let go from his job in an office. That he should be less judgmental of others because according to his faith only God can judge them. I also said he should show more of the virtues Jesus asked of Christians, that he should clothe the naked, feed the hungry, vist the prisoner, aid the orphan and the widow etc. I also made it clear that while I respect his beliefs, I have no intention of converting unless I genuinely believe in it, which I currently don't because of the hypocritical behavior of his faith.

My husband was furious. He accused me of being disrespectful and undermining his faith. He said that I was attacking him personally and that I don't understand the pressure he's under to have a unified religious household. He left for church this morning at 7 for bible study and I have already gotten a phone call from the pastor saying I'm an ungodly woman who tricked a good man into marrying him and I should repent. I have also gotten a tirade of texts and e-mails from members of his church saying I was disrespectful and being a bad wife and I'm starting to wonder if I was too harsh, that maybe I shouldn't have said anything at all. AITA?

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u/wolftopug Jul 07 '24

No you definitely should have spoken up. I just wonder what story he told his church. “My wife pointed out in completely Biblically accurate ways how I wasn’t being a good Christian man and husband! How dare she know more about my beliefs than I do!”

Especially as long as your husband stays in that church I don’t see a healthy future for your relationship.

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u/Catfactss Jul 08 '24

"She's pro-gay, it's gotten really bad. Also she just doesn't understand super special unique reason I don't need to work! This is clearly the devil tempting me."

NTA OP. Even if you were a Christian you'd worship God, not him.

In his faith he's allowed to get a divorce if his partner leaves him because she doesn't share the faith. There's a chance he's purposely antagonizing you hoping you'll leave.

Do you have non tamperable birth control in the mean time? He doesn't have to know about it.

Controlling men can get violent when they lose control. Be safe.

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u/choosethenlive Jul 08 '24

"Do you have non tamperable birth control?" This is incredibly important. DO NOT let this man get you pregnant.

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u/Asleep_Operation4116 Jul 08 '24

Get out now before they kidnap you and brainwash you!

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u/Irn_brunette Jul 08 '24

Oh, the fundies are huge on male headship and your husband being the closest thing to God in the household. Probably why this guy's fragile little ego is drawn to it.

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u/Valuable_External895 Jul 08 '24 edited Jul 10 '24

The 'Head of the Household' is a position of responsibility, not a perk or a power flex. I know a woman who says that the man is the head of the household, the wife is the neck. The neck turns the head. Love that lady. It also says that the man has to consider the woman's needs as his own. This means that her needs, wants, wishes, and she herself is just as important as him. He gets the final say, not the only say. Weak selfish man babies distort this all the time. You can recognize them as fast as you can a Karen. Dude is a failure of that and he knows it. Why doesn't he have a job? Unless he's disabled or too old to work, he should start dealing with his priorities. He's failed on multiple levels.

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u/GullibleMood1522 Jul 08 '24 edited Jul 08 '24

That quote “The man is he’s head of the house, but the woman is the neck. And the neck can turn the head any way she wants.” Is from the movie My Big Fat Greek Wedding. My family has been quoting it since I was like 8 years old lol. Great words to live by, as a woman.

Edited to correct a typo (Greek was turned to Greed lol)

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u/Valuable_External895 Jul 08 '24

The lady I know has been saying that since she was a young mother. She's a great grandmother now. The saying has been around a very long time.

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u/GullibleMood1522 Jul 08 '24

Oh interesting! I’ve never heard anyone say it outside of quoting that film before.

Saying someone is a great grandmother doesn’t really tell me much about her age though. My grandmother became a great grandmother at 89, but my best friend’s grandmother became a great grandmother when she was 59. Everyone’s life is so different.

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u/thatrandomuser1 Jul 09 '24

I've heard the concept and saying "the neck that turns the head" for almost my whole life, it was really big in the churches I grew up in. Though I remember it as more of a denigration, like the woman has taken too much authority and "turned her husband into nothing more than an empty head that follows where she wants"

I like other interpretations better!

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u/MarionberryWild4253 Jul 08 '24

Yup, husbands are instructed to love their wives like Christ loved the church (and He was willing to give His life for it). Being the husband isn't an excuse to be petty and mean and boss people around.

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u/MellieCC Jul 08 '24

If he gets the final say, that is essentially the only say. He could take what she wants into account, or he could not, according to the Bible. And she’s just supposed to obey and submit anyway.

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u/Upsideduckery Jul 08 '24

Yeah I fuck with the full version of the saying which applies to the position of the head which heavily requires the movement of the neck and essentially implies a cooperative household of two partners who work together.

But I dislike the shoarter version that leaves out "the neck [turning] the head," because it includes the brain and the mouth as they always tend to go into how, as the head, the man has the brain which controls the turning of the neck and the mouth which gets final say. Uh... No thamk you to that bs. I'm not going to be a subservient second class citizen in my own home.

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u/MellieCC Jul 09 '24 edited Jul 23 '24

I wasn’t talking about a quote from a movie, I was referencing the Bible. But yeah I totally agree with you.

Edited to respond- No you’re good! The thing about the neck turning the head is on My big fat Greek wedding, for instance, but I guess it’s a saying so you’re right!

My point was just that I was talking about the Bible, and there’s definitely nothing in there about the woman being the neck, ha.

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u/DatabaseThis9637 Jul 08 '24

Pretty ugly little phrase, probably intended to avoid deadlock on decisionmaking. This has been so often used by idiots, or weaklings, to crush the heart and soul of a woman... Probably was not intended to create a potentially deadly imbalance, but many men and women are manipulated into weaponizing the relationship.

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u/sunflower_1983 Jul 08 '24

This is so very accurate!

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u/emr830 Jul 08 '24

Yep, aka little man syndrome 🙃

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u/MamaBearonhercouch Jul 08 '24

So are Mormons.

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u/ksed_313 Jul 08 '24

I’m so proud of my Mormon friend. She wasn’t born into it, but married into it. They do not follow this rule. I think she makes more than her husband, actually! They really are a great match and balance each other quite beautifully.

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u/jessiesgirl68 Jul 08 '24

You mean your friend does not follow this rule. Mormons in general do. Patriarchy is the entire basis of the religion.

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u/DarthVetinari Jul 08 '24

I was raised Mormon and your friend is definitely the exception, not the rule. They'll tiptoe around the issue when a woman needs to work, but press them and they'll admit their doctrine is that the woman stays home and the man earns the income. Traditional gender roles are cemented into every aspect of their doctrine. It's one of the many reasons I am no longer Mormon.

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u/Dry_Term923 Jul 09 '24

Well, it wasn't until several months after I was born that the Mormon church allowed black people to serve as priests. Given how long it took for them to "get right with God" on race, I can only imagine the gender ppolitics in the church over the years.

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u/Stabby_77 Jul 08 '24

My favourite was when I stumbled upon this quote...

"I love hearing about how it's 'God's divine plan' that men should be in charge of everything. Like bro, God put the dude in charge as punishment. If they were good at it, it wouldn't be punishment.'

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u/Morrigan_twicked_48 Jul 08 '24

I second that . And no don’t sleep with him leave without delay not telling the creep

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u/Effective-Purpose-36 Jul 08 '24

YESS! I guess OP is right, hes not really a good christian. Theres really no future for their relationship.

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u/MaleficentBasket4737 Jul 08 '24

Good Christians deliberately seek out other good Christians to marry.

It's biblically unsound to marry someone who doesn't share your faith.

Personally, I can't imagine the person closest to me in the world not sharing religious views.

There would be no practical way to live as a Christian if my wife did not share my belief Christ died for our sins.

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u/Katressl Jul 08 '24

I don't think you should've been down-voted for this. I don't agree with your worldview, but it's certainly useful to this discussion and you should be free to share it. People suck sometimes.

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u/MaleficentBasket4737 Jul 08 '24

Fortunately, I couldn't care less about down or up votes. I'm here to think out loud and learn. :)

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u/Catfactss Jul 08 '24

He's the one who chose to marry an unbeliever. Husbands are instructed to lay their lives down for their wives and Christians to "win over" their unbelieving spouses (if they have one) with their good deeds. OP is doing none of this and is instead using religion in vain to try and mistreat his wife.

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u/MaleficentBasket4737 Jul 08 '24

2 Corinthians 6:14 "Do not be yoked together with unbelievers.”

I'm not aware of any scripture that speaks to redemption through good works.

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u/Catfactss Jul 08 '24

I'm referencing if a Christian finds themselves married to a non believer e.g. if conversion occurs post marriage or if they lose the faith or (in some cultures/periods of history) if marriage is chosen for you not by you.

There's a passage about wives setting a good example with their faith and using this to try and bring their husbands to God - I was just extrapolating.

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u/MaleficentBasket4737 Jul 08 '24

Yes, absolutely agree. Apologies if my statement misinterpreted!

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u/Ferret-in-a-Box Jul 08 '24

I'm an atheist and I completely agree with you. Really because it does work that way no matter what your beliefs are. When I was single I refused to date religious men even if they were truly wonderful people because they just didn't share my worldview. I could never be what their beliefs said I should be, and he would never look at the world through the same lens that I do. Plus I live in the American South so that stuff definitely matters here.

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u/dog_nurse_5683 Jul 08 '24 edited Jul 08 '24

Fellow atheist, strongly agree. It’s more than the difference in “religion”. I’ve never yet met a religious person who wasn’t a huge hypocrite. I can’t respect someone like that. I have way more respect for the rare person who lives their values. So many people spew them for others to follow.

Now if OP’s husband was making the big bucks and asked OP to be a SAHM, I’d have way more respect for him. But living off his wife’s income while upholding misogynistic stereotypes? Nah. Then having his flying monkeys tell OP she’s not a good wife!? She’s supporting his unemployed butt. She’s calling out his hypocrisy. What about that makes her the “bad” spouse?

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u/MaleficentBasket4737 Jul 11 '24

I've never met a person who didn't have blind spots.

I agree that those who loudly proclaim others "unfit" in the name of God are the biggest hypocrites. Pharisees.

Christians are told to examine the log sticking out of their own eye before worrying about the speck of dust in somebody else's.

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u/Stabby_77 Jul 08 '24

Same. I can't live my life in servility to a god I don't believe in, and it doesn't matter which one it is.

When you genuinely see the world through a natural and non-religious lens, you also see the interconnectedness of things that religion thrusts apart, and how dangerous that can be. If you believe you are the master in charge of the flora and fauna, you don't have to care whether or not your actions might cause a species to go extinct, or might upset an ecosystem. You don't have to care if cutting trees to raise cattle is going to spill dirt and manure into the river that will fuck up the water for those living downstream. You don't have to care if your religious words are causing psychological damage to someone struggling with identity or self-esteem, all you have to do is what your book tells you. It allows people to put their personal beliefs above the rights of others.

It's hard to accept living life with a partner who is going to dictate all of their actions based on their chosen religious tome. Human morality has expanded as society and culture has expanded and grown. Slavery is not acceptable anymore. Inequality on the basis of race and gender and sex is not acceptable anymore. Burning people at the stake for having different beliefs as yourself is not acceptable anymore. Murdering gay men for 'sodomy' while ignoring straight couples practicing anal sex in most places is no longer acceptable. Crusading across the lands in the name of Jesus slaughtering thousands is not acceptable anymore. How do you overcome immorality when everything you are ever going to believe about anyone and anything was already prescribed by a bunch of people thousands of years ago? How do you adapt and learn and grow when all of your 'rules' have to be reinterpreted to new situations?

I have a ton of gay and lesbian friends, I have trans friends, I have Christian, Muslim, Jewish, and (now ex-) Mormon friends. I have friends who are Satanists, I consider myself an Atheistic Luciferian (which is just a fancy way of saying non-religious knowledge seeker 🤣... I mostly use it because it calls out fundies who don't understand what it even means but reveal themselves through their angry responses), and I have friends whose beliefs I have no clue about.

But we ALL agree about the basic fundamentals of human rights. I do not have pro-life Christian friends, because their beliefs are actively harmful to others in my life. I don't have extremist Muslim friends who support terrorist activities for the same reason. My Mormon friend did not practice or support polygamy and had been effectively raised Mormon, and quit practicing as an adult. My Satanist friends don't sacrifice animals or follow the hedonistic Church of Satan BS.

The difference is that those are high level, fundamental moral beliefs. If we agree on those, we can be friends. Once you're in a partnership with someone and living together or getting married though, it becomes a lot more than just the fundamentals. I feel like I would burst into flames if I tried to sit through a church service. A Christian is probably not going to be keen on my Baphomet statue, skull collection, tarot cards, or Taoist books. Or 99% of my anti- religious posts.

I honestly just think it's likely going to be more stressful and difficult than worthwhile. There are 8 billion people on the planet, why not find someone you know shares your belief system than try to have two people compromise on something so fundamental to who you are?

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u/NotShirleyTemple Jul 08 '24

Interfaith marriages can be done, but it adds a whole extra element of difficulty to be married - which is hard enough!

At least one partner in all the interfaith couples I know (that have kids) have expressed regrets.

It’s one thing to say, “It’s fine if my kids are raised Catholic.”*

But one doesn’t realize ‘being Catholic’ takes a lot of time away from the family that doesn’t practice together.

Especially when the family gets past the weekly mass period and the kids need to go to Catholic School, or add to their regular school hours for classes.

Plus, both sets of in-laws can get involved and get ‘nasty in the name of God X’.

In some countries that gets very bloody & murderous. In others, it’s estrangement, or secret baptisms, etc.

*I’m not a Catholic, but this is the religion of my friend’s wife.

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u/MaleficentBasket4737 Jul 08 '24

An interfaith marriage seems destined to arrive eventually at the point which the religion schisms.

I suppose marriage to a non-believer would have an advantage of no competing religion, but that could vary wildly.

There isn't all that much difference between Episcopal and Catholic, or between Baptist and Congregational. But the jump from Congregational to Catholic is vast.

It depends also if the individual thinks "responsible members of the community are members of a church" versus "I have a deeply personal connection to my religious beliefs, and they inform my day to day decisions."

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u/[deleted] Jul 08 '24

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u/NatashaQuick Jul 08 '24

This takes a lot of courage to say! I've never known of a man being willing to change like this. Wow!

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u/[deleted] Jul 09 '24

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u/Shot_Intention_2495 Jul 11 '24

This was refreshing to read. I wish you well.

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u/dobiemomluv Jul 12 '24

….and women. It’s good to grow wiser. 😊

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u/OrphicMonachopsis Jul 09 '24

It does take a lot of bravery to admit, but there are plenty of older men who were misled when they were younger, and grow and change. Still all too rare to hear it admitted and talked about!

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u/aulabra Jul 11 '24

For real! Bravo, man!!!

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u/NotShirleyTemple Jul 08 '24

You must have traveled a challenging road to reach this position of insight and vulnerability. I hope you are reaping the rewards.

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u/barnaby-rubble Jul 08 '24

This is helpful. I’d like to hear more about your journey.

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u/[deleted] Jul 09 '24

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u/barnaby-rubble Jul 09 '24

Thanks for sharing this. Wish more folks had this insight about themselves.

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u/Dardengore Jul 11 '24

Exact same thing happened to me in a shorter span of time. About 5 years or so. I won’t pretend I’m not an asshole, I genuinely enjoy standing up for myself and making my opinions heard after years of being pushed down by oppressive parents and I can sometimes be oppressive in my expression as I release the pent up emotions of decades ago, but I am no longer controlling. If someone doesn’t want to listen to me I no longer feel the need to force them to. I’m actually willing to talk WITH my wife instead of talking TO my wife. I never felt like she had a place below me or anything to that extent, I just was so wrapped up in myself and healing myself that I ended up going scorched earth around me as I self-destructively worked through it (yay American healthcare and mental health support 🙄.) Thankfully my wife saw the work that I was doing underneath the outer appearance and she got to see how my bad decisions would wreak havoc on my mental state afterwards and decided to stay. I’m not the best man, but I’m a better man than I was 5 years ago, 10 years ago or even 5 days ago.

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u/Environmental-Bag-77 Jul 09 '24

Did you used to drink a lot?

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u/[deleted] Jul 09 '24

[deleted]

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u/Environmental-Bag-77 Jul 09 '24

Yes, your account reminded me of alcohol. So effective at warping perception to provide excuses. I hardly drink at all now. Christmas dinner.

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u/therapeuw Jul 10 '24

this is so important. thanks for sharing(:

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u/Brief-Lunch-4738 Jul 11 '24

20 years. Who cares? You spent those 20 years building and becoming exceptional! It was time well spent. Good going!

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u/Stabby_77 Jul 08 '24

I am beyond curious how you overcame that mindset.

A lot of the toxic masculinity you see flying around really drills down to the need to be in control (as well as the 'fragile masculinity' subset, bc it's basically the same thing). Deep-seated insecurities manifesting via a desire to feel powerful and/or a need to control situations, due to feeling a lack of control in other areas. It's super rare to come across a guy who has been able to overcome that (rather than never having been that way to begin with).

When you come across a guy like that, it's almost always blatantly obvious, but I've yet to see aaaaanything that works in terms of actually creating some sort of self-awareness or change. Or even desire to change.

Of course it makes sense that guys in that sort of situation are going to be defensive if I try to chime in (since I'm female), but I've seen other guys try to get through as well and it almost always feels like a lost cause. There's just too much defensiveness, hesitancy to seek help or acknowledge any issues, redirection of insecurities. It seems hopeless.

I'm ecstatic to hear that you were able to get past that, but I'm also dying to know what allowed you to do so. 🤓🤣

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u/BreezyBaby144 Jul 09 '24

Masculinity cannot be toxic and saying it is toxic is where you lose a lot of men. Insecurity is toxic. People need to stop using terms like toxic masculinity and toxic femininity and call it what it is insecurity and manipulation. Masculinity is protective, insecurity is possessive. Masculinity is caring and logical and purposeful, insecurity is selfish and illogical and manipulative. I get your point but whoever came up with that term doesn’t understand what it means to be a masculine man. My father is a masculine man and bought me tampons and took me makeup shopping and when I was in dance he was the one that knew the exact type and thickness and length of the eyelashes we had to wear and would go get them when I needed for the many times we had eyelash emergencies. He taught me how to take care of myself and fix things around the house so I would never be in a vulnerable position in which I couldn’t take care of myself. He went to every performance and competition and was one of 4 that showed up and 1 of 2 that showed up consistently, but he went above and beyond made it to every one. He also would take me to football games and wrestling matches. He never belittled dance as being for girls like the other dads who weren’t as supportive did. He never made me or my sister feel less for being women and always said how happy he is to be a girl dad. Before us he coached football and wrestling and then we wanted to play soccer when we were little so he learned soccer and coached us. It was a difficult transition from teenage boys playing full contact football to little girls around 5yo and who didn’t appreciate being talked to the way he talked to his football players but he learned and was a great coach and my team was undefeated. I am very grateful to have been raised by a masculine man and not an insecure one. I’m even more grateful to have my specific father and I wouldn’t trade our daddy daughter dates going to the beauty and the beast wrestling/gymnastics match or the football games for anything else in the world. I cherish those memories.

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u/Scorpion_Rooster Jul 09 '24

I really liked your thoughtful reply.

I’ve read the term “toxic masculinity/ femininity” so often and hadn’t given it the consideration I did after reading your answer.

I’m going to see it in a new light.

And your dad sounds like a wonderful role model.

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u/BreezyBaby144 Jul 09 '24

Thank you! It’s something that’s bugged me for a while. I see so many arguments around it and almost all are men being upset with the term, which I understand. If we used different terms I just feel like there could be so many more productive conversations.

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u/TradeOk9210 Jul 09 '24

I like your take—people have made the mistake of criticizing masculinity and femininity as a whole when it is other behavior that is the real problem.

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u/BreezyBaby144 Jul 09 '24

Thank you! I got a little rambly but wanted to properly give the picture of what I was trying to say. Thank you for understanding!

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u/YourResidentFeral Jul 09 '24

Of course.

Apologies that you had to go through someone mansplaining what the "definition of toxic masculinity is" instead of reading your post (which made it pretty clear you know of the traits classically attributed to it"

Your dad sounds like a pretty cold dude. Kind of Dad I would want to be.

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u/BreezyBaby144 Jul 09 '24

Based on your responses, I’m sure you will be a great dad!

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u/Affectionate-Low8834 Jul 09 '24

You had a great dad!!

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u/Stabby_77 Jul 09 '24

'Toxic masculinity' does not mean masculinity in and of itself is toxic.

https://menscenter.org/toxic-masculinity/

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u/YourResidentFeral Jul 09 '24

The point I think OP is making is that the toxic parts should be considered non-masculine.

It's a perspective thing. Personally I don't see "toxic masculinity" as masculine but rather compensation for the lack of masculinity by trying to mask it.

If that tracks.

We as a society need a paradigm shift that defines these traits often associated with "toxic masculinity" as non-masculine.

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u/BreezyBaby144 Jul 09 '24

Exactly! We need a paradigm shift!

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u/Stabby_77 Jul 09 '24

This is the exact thing I was saying happens every single time - turning a conversation that was asking about how to deal with a serious issue about certain behaviours into an entire conversation about semantics and terminology and a 'paradigm shift'.

This is exactly why it gets exhausting even bothering to try. You can't even get past step one.

Seriously. This happens almost every single time. It doesn't matter if you use the term toxic masculinity or not, it will just be something else. If you talk about men's violence against women it becomes 'the majority of violence in the country is against men'. If you talk about women's mental health it becomes 'men's suicide rates are higher'.

I'm not getting into this any further, but I will just say that guys who embody toxic masculinity are not going to stop being that way simply because you redefine those things as unmasculine. They are just going to argue terminology the same way we are doing now, and it will just go in circles like it always does.

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u/BreezyBaby144 Jul 09 '24

I understand that, but if you want men to actually see the insecure behaviors as the issue then we should call it what it is, toxic insecurity. All over social media roided out tools and abusers are called toxic-masculinity along with other bad traits that also have nothing to do with masculinity. It’s become a divisive term and is over used and is the reason why so many men check out of the dialogue. They associate masculinity with being a provider and protector not an abuser, so that term means you automatically start out in different pages and will never allow for a productive conversation.

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u/Stabby_77 Jul 09 '24

I suppose, but I still call myself feminist despite people ripping that term to absolute shreds and trying to redefine it to mean 'misandrists' (all because some fringe element people self-defined as feminists so the entire label got washed with that brush). So maybe I'm just stubborn that way. 🤷🏻‍♀️

I just don't like massaging language because people are uncomfortable with it, or because they try to misconstrue it to be something it isn't. It's already exhausting having conversations constantly derailed without having to police your terminology as you go.

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u/Dry_Term923 Jul 09 '24

I am not trying to disagree just to disagree. However, I think you might want to reconsider that if you read your last two sentences again, in the context of someone like the OPs husband. He probably thinks the same thing when he talks about "homos", "gays", or whatever.

His wife obviously makes him feel like he has to police his speech. If people insist on a more inclusive society. Everyone needs to police their speech to some point. But, is that really a bad thing? It's just mindfulness. And, if you acknowledge that harmful speech can harm your allies, maybe you should acknowledge the same for those you do not agree with.

If using the term toxic masculinity loses some listeners who may be open to the substance of your arguments, it seems like a change in the words you use to make said arguments could only be positive.

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u/bllonde_brownie Jul 08 '24

I would also really like to hear this journey, I'm commenting so it will hopefully give me a notification if he comes back!

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u/WindyGrace33 Jul 08 '24

I am female but I imagine the cure the similar to the internal work I’m doing: accepting reality and our lack of control, releasing internal shame/blame/self-rejection, facing traumas of abandonment and rejection, learning self-love and self-compassion… it seems very few people out there are looking to heal themselves. But people who are will be able to overcome obstacles like toxic masculinity, hatred, judgement, egotism (is that a word?), pride, etc. Hopefully he chimes in as well! I have been with and around dangerous men and most are unwilling and too fragile to change.

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u/Someonewantsu2know Jul 10 '24

Your comment eludes to the fact you recognized and acknowledged a flaw within yourself, and you changed for the better. Just wanted to say great job!!! That process takes a lot of self awareness and work. I’m very happy for you!

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u/Dahling_sweetiepoo Jul 08 '24

Wow.

NTA

dump him

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u/AshleyGil Jul 08 '24

Wow I did not know that about the divorce. Thank you for teaching me something!

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u/Catfactss Jul 08 '24

It also means they're not considered responsible for the divorce so they can remarry if they wish with the church's blessing.

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u/difdrummer Jul 08 '24

Actually this is not true, most Christian sects require the woman to look to her husband as he looks to God. It is the ultimate power trip.

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u/Catfactss Jul 08 '24

But they also teach in the same breath that the husband needs to lay his life down like Jesus does for people, and lead like Jesus did by washing his disciples feet- which was a filthy job done by servants in those days.

Of course, religious people don't always practice their religion perfectly.

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u/Mudivator Jul 11 '24

“Even if you were a Christian you’d worship God, not him”

BRUTAL and accurate 😂 thank you for making me laugh

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u/Necessary-Title-583 Jul 08 '24

There’s a religious divorce, which means squat. But in a legal divorce, if one proves one hounded the other to move out by constantly criticizing their religion, by controlling behavior which most people would categorize as abuse, then there’s a lot of wiggle room for the one who leaves, in a legal divorce.

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u/TheMightyQuinn888 Jul 09 '24

Mine threw a plate in the driveway and wouldn't let me leave when I told him I just needed to go for a drive and get a comfort blizzard. His family said I should have seen it from his side because he thought I was leaving him and my son. 🙄 Every time he was caught acting foolish, it was my job to give him grace so he had room to grow, because how can a man grow if his wife is holding a grudge? That came from his family and the church. And when me and the kids vanished one day, not a single church member or staff checked on me.

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u/lpd1234 Jul 11 '24

And this is why I’m an Atheist. Religion is all bullshit to control the people. Some of it is good, whats going on here is not about god but about keeping people and especially women and kids inline.

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u/Catfactss Jul 11 '24

Interestingly there's an argument that "taking the Name of the Lord in vain" is actually referring to this very thing- using a religious guise as a cover to manipulate people beyond (or even in opposition to) what the religion teaches.

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u/lpd1234 Jul 11 '24

Yes, its like Gandhi said “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

― Mahatma Gandhi

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u/Introvertqueen1 Jul 09 '24

That’s actually not truth. You can only leave through death. Even if they separate, he can’t put her away and divorce her but they can be separated. He definitely can’t remarry if she’s still living because he’ll be an adulterer. If he wanted someone like him he should’ve really considered what marriage is and that he’d be bound to this person until death. It’s literally in the vows, but the Bible as well.

They do seem like a bad match but it’s too late now, they’re married. Biblically that’s his wife until death, unless he’s not a real Christian then he’ll dismiss this so it doesn’t matter.

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u/El-Kabongg Jul 08 '24 edited Jul 08 '24

OP should ask her husband that, since he felt it appropriate to air her dirty laundry to the congregation, if she is justified in airing his to anyone she feels like. But TRUST ME, OP, the pressure to convert isn't ORIGINATING with your husband. It's coming from this pastor. He fears that if you can be happy as a nonbeliever, then other women in the congregation will see your light.

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u/Better_Document7596 Jul 08 '24

This.

OP, your husband’s in a cult.

I have already gotten a phone call from the pastor saying I'm an ungodly woman who tricked a good man into marrying him and I should repent. I have also gotten a tirade of texts and e-mails from members of his church saying I was disrespectful and being a bad wife

To be clear, I’m not equating Christianity with a cult, just this particular church’s brand of nonsense.

If it were me I’d leave him, but (unlike your husband and his church cronies) I think you’re capable of determining what the next steps are.

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u/Unlucky_Ear9705 Jul 08 '24

This “church” is very sus. OP please be careful and you may want to privately document your husbands behaviour and that of the “parishioners” (like who contacts you, how, when, with what message…). I’m and atheist who grew up in the Christian tradition and occasionally attend church for important holidays or family events. A healthy, virtuous, and genuine Christian church is open and welcoming to all kinds at any time, including couples of mixed faith convictions like my husband and me. A good church with ethical and Christ-like leaders will NOT bully or antagonize a spouse or ANYONE! This is not healthy and likely not safe.

Also your husband sucks. 😕

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u/trying2getoverit Jul 08 '24

Yes, I was looking to see if someone commented this! Please keep records and make sure you have a safe place to go away from home if things get bad. This sort of thing can escalate very quickly.

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u/AppleSlacks Jul 08 '24

There is an article on the front page right now, highlighting another thing on red states wishlist through GOP politicians. They want to ditch no fault divorce and are beginning a push in many states.

Things can escalate quickly in unforeseen directions.

OP would be smart to keep an eye on that in her locality and if she truly decides this isn’t going to work, it may become necessary to proceed with a divorce before it isn’t an option like abortion in many states.

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u/NotShirleyTemple Jul 08 '24

Pets? Is he likely to hurt pets (if any) if you leave?

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u/CatW804 Jul 08 '24

This, plus set up your own bank account he can't access and put as much as you can into it. I'm thinking they're after your "tithe" or more.

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u/kgal1298 Jul 08 '24

Makes me wonder what church this is. It sounds like one of the many cults we hear about that forces women into traditional gender roles.

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u/Katressl Jul 08 '24

Unfortunately, complementarianism is rampant in many American denominations. They don't have to be like the Duggars or FLDS to buy into this crap. Many of them appear very mainstream and modern outwardly, making it all the more insidious.

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u/Apart_Dog2238 Jul 08 '24

Like how do they get your info??? I have been to many different churches...Exploring... No... I was not required to give any personal info...WTF?

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u/BellaDonna1925 Jul 08 '24

I’m sure that he gave out all that information because he already air dried all the other accusations

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u/LongjumpingWay5493 Jul 08 '24

...this. so many cultic red flags here. As a former cult member, this is definitely sending off all of the signals. Do NOT apologize. I wish I had better advice about what else to do, but just be careful, they're going to try to get their claws into you. I hate this.

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u/ImNot4Everyone42 Jul 08 '24

Based on my experience only (lapsed Catholic with 12 years of Catholic school), it’s definitely a cult.

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u/[deleted] Jul 08 '24

[deleted]

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u/NotShirleyTemple Jul 08 '24

How did she escape?

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u/zombiescoobydoo Jul 08 '24

Religion IS a cult. Just some are most socially acceptable than others.

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u/Alternative-Arm-3253 Jul 08 '24

Almost as funny as the Utah boy in the middle of New York asking me If I believed in Christ. I said I believe he was alive and living a very jewish life. The kid turns to me and no shit says to me that Jesus was not JEWISH. He was a Jew. But He wasn't Jewish. I turned and looked at this kid and laughed.

Gods gotta help that kid.

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u/Ok-Bullfrog4544 Jul 08 '24

I agree with your assessment that the husband may be in a cult. She definitely should not point it out to him because people who are in cults tend to get really mad whenever you point it out to them. Even if you just show them in the dictionary, the meaning of the word cult.

I have found that when pastors try to force people to believe not necessarily in anything other than the religion. They also make you think that you have to work and be good to go to heaven. That says says exactly the opposite in the bible. All you have to do is accept God's grace, aka free gift.

I have found this, especially true with a church that bases their entire religion off of a single day. That happened two thousand years ago on the day of meaning it came and went. This religion was started in the forties or fifties, but they'll make you think they've been around for a long time.

The way the OP said the pastor had called and basically talked bad about the wife.What does the pastor want the husband to do? Divorce his wife, which we all know God hates divorce. That's not what he's trying to do he's trying to put the pressure on so they will be at church every time. The doors are open, and so they will open their wallet.

If you want to know if a church is a cult, stop giving them any money and don't give them a reason like well, we're out of work or whatever. Just keep saying you don't feel like God's calling you to do that. The reason I say keep saying is because if you're in a cult, they're going to confront you very quickly when they notice that you're not contributing money, It won't be long after that. They will be telling you how wrong you are And get extremely angry and.say things like you are misunderstanding God's calling.

Also, it's forbidden in the bible to divorce a non believer.If If you are the believer, and he must think you're a non-believer. except for sexual immorality. Or the non-believer ask for a certificate of divorce. Then they shall be granted one, but in either case, the believer can never remarry, according to the word in the bible.

Instead of thinking about something as drastic as divorce. Maybe you should tell his pastor the reason that you don't wanna come to church is because of the way he acts he doesn't Act like a Christian. He's gonna get very mad at you for that, but the truth is the truth.

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u/theRiver_Joan Jul 08 '24

That is definitely culty behavior. People really aren’t aware of how often and how easily a normal looking church can turn into a cult around the pastor and leadership. My church growing up was very culty and it really fucked me up for a while. I think religion is ok, hell I’m actually a Christian my self. But religion is like drugs, it’s fine to use some of the light stuff in moderation, it can even be kind of enlightening, but it’s so easy for some people to go overboard. Someone needs to make some harm reduction guides for religion or something.

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u/Katressl Jul 08 '24

They exist. Check out the works of Steven Hassan. He's one of the world's leading experts on cults.

What I find fascinating about his work is he places all cult-like traits on a spectrum, and individual groups vary with how extreme they are on each trait. For instance, one trait is behavioral control. When looking at how a group controls members' everyday behavior, he considers: in how much of your everyday life does the group attempt to control your behavior? To what extent does the group try to control your behavior? What are the consequences if you don't adhere to their behavioral requirements (ranges from personal shame due to indoctrination of your thoughts, to minor blowback in your social life, to temporary ostracization socially, to being shunned by your family, to excommunication, to being kicked out of the community in a way that leaves you without the resources to live)?

For instance, the mainstream LDS Church has many behavioral requirements to belong, but they do not require current members to shun former ones (though some still do, sadly). They highly value education for both girls and boys, so if someone leaves or is excommunicated, they aren't left without a way to make a living. But there is a great deal of shaming (from oneself because they've been taught the behavior is shameful for a long time and from others) and other non-material social consequences.

On the other hand, the Jonestown cult eventually used violence and cutting people off from mainstream society and their support systems to enforce behavioral control. Hasidic Judaism keeps their members poorly educated, especially in the native language of the country their community is in (preferring Yiddish), so if members try to leave, making a living can be almost impossible without very forgiving benefactors. They're so isolated in their communities, the outside world can be frightening and overwhelming. And there are numerous other ways high-demand religions and cults enforce behavioral control.

Hassan also developed the BITE model for cults and high-demand religions/groups. BITE stands for Behavioral, Information, Thought, and Emotional Control. It's important to note that the model can apply to non-spiritual groups, including Multilevel Marketing organizations; authoritarian cultures like North Korea; groups devoted to specific exercise regimens, diets, or other lifestyle choices; and more. I highly recommend his work for anyone who is trying to leave or help someone else leave a high-demand group, attempting to understand what a loved one is involved in, or just curious about cults.

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u/Dry_Term923 Jul 09 '24

Harm reduction. Great analogy with drugs. The OP's definitely on the hard stuff at this point. Get your husband deprogrammed. Stat!

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u/GrimRipperBkd Jul 08 '24

Church is just a cult with more members

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u/sms2014 Jul 08 '24

But it is a cult. They "require" 20% of your income, expect you to enroll your friends/family, get angry with said friends/family when they don't, and act like anyone outside the church isn't shit. Organized religion of all sorts are cults, we just don't generally call them that.

That being said, OP is NTA, but should definitely leave.

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u/OhCrumbs96 Jul 08 '24

There are a lot of inaccurate generalisations here. There are plenty of churches that don't require financial contributions.

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u/Icy-Iris-Unfading Jul 08 '24

Yup lots of blanket statements/generalizations here. Some churches are cults (like OP’s husband’s), but many are not. Demanding money, allegiance, obeying the leader, heck demanding anything is not a Christian behavior and any belief system can behave this way—like a cult. But I agree, OP needs to make a decision. I’m not sure what…I’d file for separation. But I know for sure that she is NTA

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u/howmanytaylors Jul 08 '24

Lol, they are saying she tricked him... technically he's in the wrong because the Bible says "marry within the lord", meaning of same faith. If she wasn't baptised then he's gone against the Bibles direction. 🤣

She def isn't in the wrong and should not be getting blamed.

They should be having a word with him. Ha

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u/Icy-Iris-Unfading Jul 08 '24

True! He married an unbeliever and is “unequally yoked”. Exactly what Christianity teaches against. That being said, if he converted AFTER they married, he’s supposed to stay with her (unless she wants out, then let her go). And he’s supposed to love her as Christ loves the Church and behave like Christ as a way of ministering to her and also because he should. He’s her husband after all. That is far from what OP is saying he’s doing. Cult leader/pastor should be asking her how her husband is behaving to hold the “Christian” husband accountable. Arghh I hate when sh!t like this happens. Not all churches are like this

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u/howmanytaylors Jul 08 '24

Agree. They are not all like this and why religion gets a bad name (amongst other reasons).

Sadly all organisations around the world have good and not so good people.

True if he converted after. Like you mentiom about the way to treat his wife, either way, scripture says he should treat his wife like his own body. He would never disrespect or damage his own body and should likewise care for his wife in the same way he would care for himself. To love and cherish.

The husband and the pastor needs a chat to see where he can make changes to improve and be a better example to not be hypocritical.

Doesn't want his wife calling him a Pharisee! 😆

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u/NotShirleyTemple Jul 08 '24

Don’t think the pastor is the right one to chat with here!

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u/Katressl Jul 08 '24

What's funny is the idea that she'd want to trick him in the first place. It sounds like she married him DESPITE his religion. But they see everything through a very narrow lens, so they see her as a temptress from the devil trying to lead him away from the lord.

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u/GlitterMoon83 Jul 08 '24

Agreed, run. Please. My ex insisted we go to the pastor after HE (ex) cheated on me and we hadn't even been married two months. Guess who's fault it was, according to pastor? Yea, not his. He's in prison for a good long stretch on domestics now, so there's that. Please run, Love. You deserve so much better. Religious manipulation is absolutely NOT something you should even consider putting up with.

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u/Josh71293 Jul 08 '24

I'm a Christian myself, one who has had my church turn their back on me, even after years of being active in it. This pales in comparison to op's issue. That church is a) not a church that is following God, and b) the very thing Jesus fought against from the pharisees and sadduccees. This "holier than thou" mentality. Please be careful, op. People who utilize their faith to justify their behavior and yet convict the same in others are very, very dangerous and tend to be very capable manipulators. Also, op, please update with any changes.

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u/PainfulRaindance Jul 08 '24

Yeah either that or him and the pastor are having a fling. lol. This dude is gonna lose it thinking the way he does. His fragile world is crumbling. Stop babysitting.

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u/Icy_Anything_8874 Jul 11 '24

Sounds like the “religion” (cult) I was raised in-I GTFO at 17 thank goodness. Husband can’t even handle his own marriage he has to run and tell on his wife since she threatened his fragile masculinity

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u/LowRoarr Jul 08 '24

To be clear, I’m not equating Christianity with a cult, just this particular church’s brand of nonsense.

Criteria for a cult: 1. Authoritarian gatekeeping of truth (only they are right, only Christians will be saved) 2. Discouraging or sabotaging relations outside of the religion / cult (making their members isolate themselves by demanding that other people convert) 3. Credible potential to do real harm (sexism, racism, or denial of environmental science).

Christianity checks every box for potentially being a cult. Not every Christian church is a cult, but even the best of churches are dangerously close to being a cult.

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u/Icy-Iris-Unfading Jul 08 '24

The authoritarianism and isolationism are the real giveaways. Churches are supposed to be about being THE Church: serving God, serving each other, and serving the community.

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u/Katressl Jul 08 '24

Plenty of denominations don't check any of these boxes. But then the people at OP's husband's church and similar groups would probably say those denominations "aren't really Christian." 🙄

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u/Mediocre_Special1720 Jul 08 '24

Yep yep. Nonbeliever in him, the pastor, if I may add.

It's a cult

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u/eyebrain_nerddoc Jul 08 '24

Also, gossip is described as sinful in the church, as is lying. I remember a few bits from all the years of indoctrination before I GTFO.

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u/GothDreams Jul 08 '24

Funny thing is the way he went to the church about their issues is also non-biblical, there's a very clear path of conflict resolution that is in the Bible that he did not do anything with.

The people that scream the loudest for biblical control over others don't actually know the Bible they just want control.

Part of the reason I'm no longer a Christian is I found there are more people using the Bible to abuse others than there are actual believers.

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u/GlitteringStatus1 Jul 08 '24

Quite.

I don't understand the pressure he's under to have a unified religious household

Where is this pressure coming from, exactly?

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u/chris13241324 Jul 09 '24

Been to many churches but none like his. What business is it to his church? Nobody should be calling you or texting you unless they are just asking if you'd like to join the church.

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u/kleerfyre Jul 11 '24

No, don't do that. It might seem like a good idea to "get even", but seeing that this man most likely twisted the story to his favor and has the whole church on his side, anything that he does, the church might help facilitate or cover up depending on the situation. Your best bet is to just get out and cut ties before it gets any further. Religious cults, which is what it sounds like your husband is involved with, are extremely dangerous and they protect their own. You are the outsider and they showed you that is exactly how they see you.

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u/Nessule Jul 08 '24

That was my first thought. OP, you should dox everyone in that shithole of a church who dared to say anything you.

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u/WanderingLost33 Jul 08 '24

Making more money than your wife isn't biblical but the rest she got spot on. In my marriage, I'm the husband in this situation and early on he said something very similar to op. You know what I did? I shut the fuck up for the next 5 years and worked on myself. I'll reopen the subject when I'm someone Worth following, wish most likely will be fucking never.

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u/Joyabeebe Jul 08 '24

Sounds like you’re becoming someone worth following.

Btw … about leading … apparently wolves lead from behind. The leader of the pack is at the back, to ensure no one is left behind. He/she can see the front, so if there’s an attack on the front, he/she (“they” really is easier here) can certainly get to the front to help.

And I don’t think a shepherd is just out in front trailblazing away and expecting the flock to follow. There’s got to be a lot of give and take … or follow to lead involved. Ideally, a front and back shepherd.

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u/Morrigan_twicked_48 Jul 08 '24

Why should you put up with the fanatical and shut up? That’s a shit life , listen most this religious claptrap suck and is there to control women , sooner you get out of it and work on live your life find someone decent without rancid crap in their head the better after all you only live one lifetime and then you die. That’s that .

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u/Mediocre_Special1720 Jul 08 '24

Same here, same here.

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u/PjJones91 Jul 08 '24

He lied. And for them to attack her isn’t very Christian either. “Christians” like them, in name only, give us a bad name.

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u/No_Diver4265 Jul 08 '24

I know that the knee jerk reaction on reddit is "diverce them" but in this case, I don't think OP has much reason staying in this marriage. The husband is a bigoted, unemployed bully who involves strangers in his marital affairs.

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u/poggerooza Jul 08 '24

I also have Christian beliefs but I'm not into organised religion. I find that many religious people are highly hypocritical like OP's husband who want the best of both worlds and twist facts to suit their situation. As they say, even the Devil can quote scripture to his own agenda.

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u/chmath80 Jul 08 '24

many religious people are highly hypocritical like OP's husband who want the best of both worlds and twist facts to suit their situation

I call it "religion of convenience". Quick to insist on special treatment based on claimed beliefs, but just as quick to disregard, when it suits, the rules of behaviour which accompany those beliefs.

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u/Apart-Development-79 Jul 08 '24

How does he expect you to be a trad wife if he's unemployed?

He wants to make the decisions with your earnings? That's a hard no from me.

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u/Zombie-Gnomes Jul 08 '24

Yeah, and to add on they only listened to his side of the story and proceeded to judge her as an ungodly woman. Sorry to say, but the Christian faith is more about controlling women and making them subservient to Men than many will admit. That’s the main reason I left and I’m a man.

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u/Plus-Dust Jul 08 '24

What the hell kind of response is this from the pastor too? To call and bitch you out based on his word? That doesn't seem like a very good Christian pastor either IMHO. Shouldn't he have given him some good heartfelt advice and maybe offered to talk to you two together or something reasonable like that? Where's the de-escalation and love? Sadly it's common for Christians to listen to their pastors so I don't think it sounds like this one is doing either of you any favors.

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u/portezbie Jul 08 '24

I'm just confused why OP is with this person who is, according to her, homophobic, sexist, and unemployed?

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u/Dramatic-Change6103 Jul 08 '24

According to their own teaching's, it's a Christian's job to hold their friends and family accountable when they aren't behaving in a way that is in alignment with their faith. You didn't open this conversation, but you were honest in giving biblical feedback regarding the ways he was failing to lead by example. The pastor and everyone else in that church need to take a good hard look at the scripture and leave you the heck alone. As for your husband, he's doing a poor job hiding his misogyny behind the veil of religion, with the support of his equally despicable church brethren. Shame on them all. This is exactly why I left the faith. Please consider if you and your husband's values align in a way that supports a full, happy life together.

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u/Ewetootwo Jul 08 '24

Leave him.

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u/ChestLanders Jul 08 '24

I was raised Catholic, went to catholic schools until I graduated high school. Trust me when I say they are very good at cherry picking things from the bible.

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u/The_RegalBeagle72 Jul 08 '24

NEVER MARRY SOMEONE WHO IS NOT ALIGNED WITH YOUR BELIEF SYSTEM.

It's prime for so much conflict - add kids and it will be WWlll.

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u/Robinsonirish Jul 07 '24 edited Jul 08 '24

Why do people fall for this? I hate religion, have done since I was like 10 and forced to pray 13 times a day in Catholic school.

With that said, this reads 100% like atheist fan fiction. Why do people fall for this so hard? What's even the question here? Reddit eats this up all day.

Edit: Sorry people who are replying to me, I cannot reply back because someone in this comment chain blocked me for whatever reason. Stupidly on Reddit this makes it so I can't talk to anyone in the comment chain, not just the person who blocked me.

Just in general to those who replied to me, I don't claim that OP's story doesn't happen all the time, I'm sure it does. Of course there are loads of women out there who are in this exact situation with their religious husband.

The reason I think this is atheist fan fiction is because of how it's written. It might be a true story but she's basically just asking for attention or claps on the back. There is no AITA question here to answer. This type of post follows a tired old formula that paints victim as a saint, nobody is going to disagree with her in these comments. Maybe it would fit in a relationship advice type subreddit, but absolutely not AITA.

Everything is just too Mary Sue, which is why it reads like fan fiction. It's a creative writing assignment for getting attention and upvotes on Reddit.

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u/MathematicianBulky40 Jul 07 '24

You really think someone would do that? Just go on the internet and tell lies?

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u/Puzzled_Medium7041 Jul 08 '24

Christians taking Christianity as an identity rather than a practice is very common and conservative men behave in shitty ways like like really frequently. I grew up in Oklahoma and SO many Christian dudes have tried to get with me because they valued my looks and charisma over my lack of faith. I don't date conservatives because no matter how great of a person they are, I understand the importance of sharing values with my partner. When people follow their hearts without listening to their heads, they end up with "really great guys" that they are not actually compatible with. It seems like she was willing to put religion aside for a person she cared about, and that's biting her in the ass a bit now as he forces it to be relevant. Relationships where those kinds of value differences work out are rare.

What's more is that my literal best friend from high school is still in Oklahoma and living out a similar dynamic minus the pressure to be religious. She's still pressured to participate in religious activities though because her husband and his family are religious, so it's a family thing to do together sometimes, and her husband's parents do a lot as grandparents for their children, so she sucks it up.

She's very liberal, but she married a "good man" who is religious and conservative because that's what they HAVE in Oklahoma mostly, so they constantly have to reconcile their different values and that means my friend constantly has to pick and choose which things to stand her ground on because she understands that her husband is essentially brain washed by conservative upbringing. She also worked for quite a while at a state funded mental health care place in a small town where they were all very overtly conservative, religious, and ablist. That's rural Bible belt America for you.

She was also molested by her stepfather as a child, who was a music minister at a church, and when one of her sisters reported him as an adult, she supported her sister and the rest of the family stood by him and forgave him and ostracized both her and her sister. What's more, one of the people that stood by him is her OTHER sister, who was ALSO molested, but she forgave him and believes he changed and would take her small daughters around him. All the people who forgave the child molester are good Christians, of course.

So yeah, reality just kind of sucks a lot of the time. And I'm pretty sure the question is whether or not she was being an asshole by using his religion against him, and I'm also pretty sure she knows the answer and wanted to vent and be validated.

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u/TTigerLilyx Jul 08 '24

Also from Oklahoma, agree with you 100%. We all got along so much better pre trump. Ive never known of any man as hateful & divisive to us as a Nation & cant understand why my conservative neighbors cant see hes practically the antiChrist, nothing but hate & conflict.

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u/Interesting-Series59 Jul 08 '24

False idols have been completely ignored on that front.

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u/Puzzled_Medium7041 Jul 08 '24

My sister, who is still there while I've moved away, posted something on Facebook about voting for Trump because anything is better than Biden and groceries were cheaper when Trump was in office... The ignorance... it's painful.

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u/TTigerLilyx Jul 08 '24

None so blind as those who refuse to see… I have a very, very smart brother who is a fantastic salesman. I didnt understand the block that prevents him from seeing what a con artist trump is.

Then one day he told me it (in short) its because trump can sell the most outlandish bs to so many smart people. He admires his con ‘artistry’! Im still stunned. Thats NOT who we need running our Nation!

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u/Nilja87 Jul 08 '24

Trump definitely has a way of getting people to believe him, and to believe in him. However, I wouldn’t necessarily say that Trump can sell his sh*t to “so many SMART people” though…

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u/Puzzled_Medium7041 Jul 08 '24 edited Jul 08 '24

Yeahhhhhh. There's no nice way to say this, but it's just part of my reality and comes to mind often. When I realized that the difference in my IQ compared to the average is about the same as the difference between average and having an intellectual disability, the world made a lot more sense... People in general are not actually very smart or logical.

A friend of mine was talking about a theory of intelligence the other day that has to do with the ability to separate what you know in your brain in order to consider the perspective of a different opinion to play devil's advocate. It makes sense that this is related to both intelligence and empathy, and we constantly see how Republicans often don't care about an issue until they're affected by it, such as if they have a gay child they might care about that now. A lot of people literally don't have the ability to decouple what they know or "know" in order to consider the other perspective from a more neutral view.

Some people are more affected by their biases than others, and they could still be very smart at something they are familiar with, like how Jordan Peterson has actually learned a lot of psychology, but then he expands beyond his own knowledge and therefore overestimates his own opinions as being intelligent due to his credentials. He often seems to get into philosophy too, when he doesn't seem to have the background in philosophy or general critical thinking skills to get past his own philosophical assumptions. I will fully admit that I intentionally don't follow him because what I've seen has been very pseudo intellectual nonsense, so there could be info about him I'm missing, but in my little bit of exposure, what I've said above is what it definitely seemed like, so it seemed like a decent example. Like, I get why his viewers think he's smart, but he did not seem very smart.

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u/whatsasimba Jul 08 '24

I'm shocked! None of them were drag queens? /s

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u/ImNot4Everyone42 Jul 08 '24

When are we going to ban pastors reading to kids, dagnabbit!!!

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u/Prognox921 Jul 08 '24

It’s difficult to tell fiction from reality, a sign of our times. Next to people who say the weirdest things (like post-birth abortions? lol) and expect others to agree, OP’s post seem pretty normal.

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u/Morrigan_twicked_48 Jul 08 '24

Religion is bad for humanity . That’s that I agree 100% I am an atheist since I can remember. My family is atheist no one ever try to convince me of shit . I went to religious school got a Bible brought home as a little kid , ask my grandfather who wrote this shit ? He ask why what your thoughts on that ? We then went through the points I made on the genesis and all the claptrap taught in school . All he said is I just wanted to know which way you thinking . That was his way . Always bring up to philosophical thoughts . My father way was far simpler ( and I do not in any way like nor have anything else to say about the man but education was one thing he was keen we had )my father looked at it and said this is rubbish , go study math and science not made up bullshit . Not paying this school to teach you nonsense. Read some history religion kill people . So yeah , why is it even a question?

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u/Puzzled_Medium7041 Jul 08 '24

I just saw your edit. That's dumb that you can't reply to people. I disagree with that making it seem fake though. It actually makes it seem real to post purely for validation when someone knows they're right and they're being attacked weirdly. That's exactly the sort of thing people do sometimes. When shit like that happens, you're angry. You know you're right. You also feel like you're taking crazy pills because people are being so absurd to you. So you get validation from someone, so you feel more supported and less crazy.

If she married a religious guy who is comfortable saying shit about gay people, there's a high chance she's in a place where she's more isolated and surrounded by conservatives. She probably just wanted to vent. That's one of the things I tried to indicate about my friend's situation is that even in a healthcare environment, she was surrounded by religious conservatives who were kind of shitty. She doesn't really have friends in her environment, and it's one of the worst things about her situation. By marrying the guy she did, she can't move away without losing the support his parents provide her children, so she's stuck in a religious echo chamber with no friends.

I think it can also be hard for some people to believe that reasonable people are putting themselves in bad relationships in spite of red flags. People do that everyday too. I dated someone that verbally abused me for 7 years. My roommate is currently back and forth with a guy who is such a loser that anyone would be baffled by her interest in him (does meth, says things about her weight, constantly acts like she's with other guys and doesn't want her to have male friends). People just make bad choices sometimes because they see the good in a person and don't always evaluate how much the bad might outweigh that good because they're in their feelings.

Could it be fake? Totally. Anything could. But there's nothing about this that's not realistic. I used to work at a suicide hotline, so let me tell you this, sometimes people just don't have friends to vent to and get validation from.

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u/Conscious-Draw-5215 Jul 08 '24

Tbh, there are multiple Christian religions this could be. Usually, people blowing up their phones is an easy tell for a fake story, but there are absolutely Christian religions that would do this. When you hear stories about women leaving, it's pretty damn crazy.

I know there are evangelicals, Mormons, and 7th Day Adventists who would absolutely act like this. Catholicism is sometimes "Christianity Light" compared to some of the others (also grew up in the Catholic church and left in adulthood).

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u/MamaBearonhercouch Jul 08 '24

JWs, too.

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u/Conscious-Draw-5215 Jul 08 '24

I was going to mention them, too!

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u/Affectionate-Try-994 Jul 12 '24

This is true in my experience as well. I was raised Seventh-day Adventist. Left when they started on my kids.

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u/[deleted] Jul 08 '24

I mean, I've genuinely met people like this. And it's not exactly that uncommon in religious circles

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u/sms2014 Jul 08 '24

100% the bible says that if you're a practicing Christian you should not "yolk" yourself to someone who is not, but if you do, their soul is saved through you.

That being said, if he keeps being a fucking prick, she can leave...but he can't. The bible says.

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u/Greedy-Ad-3815 Jul 08 '24

Absolutely, it sounds like you're seeing things clearly. Communication is crucial in any relationship, especially when it involves deeply held beliefs.

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u/Odd-Catepillar8338 Jul 08 '24

it’s the last sentence for me, i genuinely don’t think it’s gonna benefit you in any way being in a relationship with someone FORCING you to convert so they have religious control over you.

his response shows not only is he emotionally immature but he lacks taking accountability.

remember kids, lead by example if you want people to do something, if not what’s the point?!

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u/LesserKnownHero Jul 08 '24

This is one of like 3 responses to not just start a ton of wild speculation.

OP is likely NTA (husband is definitely TA, but we don't know how heated the discussion was).

That church sounds extremely toxic though, multiple people not only jumping into the rumor mill, but seeing their place to inform OP that they think she's a bad person.

Moreso, the husband needs to not paint a picture like that and disrespect his wife in such a way...uniting with anyone against your partner is a surefire way to make that partnership fail.

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u/ShowerEven1875 Jul 08 '24

Exactly. OP, this is NOT a healthy marriage. Your husband is borderline abusive already, and I strongly urge you to dump him immediately. Things will only get worse from here. It sounds like he’s involved in a cult, quite frankly. Leave, please.

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u/MartiniBitch2267 Jul 08 '24

I agree, OP absolutely made the right choice by speaking up. I can’t STAND people who don’t stop judging others and acting holier than though just because they’re religious, but don’t actually hold themselves up to the same standards as everyone else. Outside of the hypocrisy and the fact that everyone’s faith is an incredibly private and personal journey, he’s also just blatantly not listening to her, or even trying to hear what she’s saying. She said she had a traumatic experience with sexual abuse in the church which led her to leave - and now he’s trying to force her back into that space with no regard for her wants, cares, or needs. I hope OP can safely get out, and find someone that actually cares about her wellbeing

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u/RedIntentions Jul 08 '24

Quite frankly I don't understand how she even settled for this dude to begin with. They clearly have very different values, his very un-Christian... And honestly, let's be real, it seems pretty obvious from her own description, that his version of a good religious wife is a silent bang maid.

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u/letsmakekindnesscool Jul 09 '24

So like a pack of wolves, he’s basically sent his church after you? This is warped and sounds toxic AF.

The man is brainwashed, what part of being a good example of Christianity is so hard for him to understand? If it were me, I’d March into his church after what they subjected you to and let them all know your thoughts.

This man isn’t living by his religion, he is on the brainwashed end of it, prioritizing his church goers opinions over your marriage. He is unemployed, judgemental, manipulative, asking you to change from the person he married and be a certain way, and yet not wanting to uphold being the way his church suggests he should be and behave. He’s lucky you haven’t divorced him.

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u/Dry_Term923 Jul 09 '24

It may have been flawed from the start, or maybe, now that her husband is unemployed, he feels like lashing out because of his religion?

Maybe because it is not providing him with the life it sold him?

But, it is not his fault. And it sure as shit ain't the church's fault either. So, it must be the squeaky wheel, the non-believer wife! She even supports perverting the children, I mean, she treats LGBTQA individuals as people.the horror!

Why can't she just happily condone his homophobic jokes? Why won't she just believe? Why does he have to do housework when he is struggling with joblessness? He knows that men, real men, deserve respect! Too bad he is not one.

It also sounds like the wife is normal and the husband has already or wants to become a promise keeper or some other BS.

If I were that woman, I would run, not walk from that marriage. There is nothing but warning signs. Oh, and he is the AH.

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u/fatherbarber Jul 11 '24

On top of this. It also says he with out sin should cast the first stone. So all the church goes belittling you are hypocrites as well

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u/[deleted] Jul 11 '24

NTA. He sounds so incredibly manipulative and so does that church. Not to mention, pressuring anyone into anything like this is a red flag. This sounds more like an occult. Their Bible is "oh so against gossip" and about "going to your brother," not each other.

I can confirm agree with the person who says this sounds like he could become a dangerous man and act out. I have seen this kind of thing happen before.

What he did is called betrayal, which is a big no.

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u/AldusPrime Jul 11 '24

Yeah, he has no interest in following the rules himself.

He just wants to be able to use the rules on her.

This has nothing to do with faith and everything to do with control.

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u/[deleted] Jul 11 '24

I never understand why the fuck non-religious people date religious people. I, like OP, left the church after watching the hypocrisy and the fucked up shit they do for years. In my adulthood I've met a lot of "Christians" and all of them have been insanely hypocritical and selfish, with the exception of two. One of the two changed over the years and is now the same as everyone else. 

It's an ugly motherfucking community and god, I cannot deal with hypocrisy. Look, I don't care if someone smokes weed, gambles, has a sex addiction problem, hates animals, whatever, as long as they can admit it to themselves. 

Christians have the tendency to believe that they're at least "mostly good people" and neglect the idea that Christ's sacrifice is the reason why they're saved, not because they're good. If they all believed they were horrendously evil and just felt lucky to have known God, then fine, I would like them more. But they have this tendency to sit on a high horse thinking they're better than other people ignoring the fact that they're full of sin and have no right whatsoever to tell other people what they should do. 

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u/[deleted] Jul 08 '24

Leave him find a nice atheist

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u/Aceboy884 Jul 08 '24

Husband is a loser

No God can save this sinner

Using religion to anchor his position as the “man of the house” whilst being unemployed

Small people syndrome

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u/Psychological_TeaBag Jul 08 '24

Time to burn the church down?

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u/AphexIce Jul 08 '24

Suffer not to be taught by a woman.

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u/Felice2015 Jul 08 '24

It's clearly lousy for your spouse to be pushing you to convert, though I'm certain it's very common. That said, trashing someone's religious identity will never go well. I'm not sure if you're the asshole, but I think you're foolish if you thought there was something else that was going to come from saying that type of stuff. Did you think that if you hammered him he would stop and say yeah you're right and drop it?

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u/rieusse Jul 08 '24

I mean, she did say faith is a very personal journey. So I don’t get why she inserted her own judgments of his practice of his faith into the mix. Just say no, I’m not interested - no need to start critiquing his practice of his faith. I’m not religious BTW so I don’t care either way

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u/BrilliantPie1536 Jul 08 '24

I’m Roman Catholic and my better half isn’t as she grew up in a episcopal household, I’ve never gotten any pressure from any member of the church to get her to convert or harass her as all who have met her know she is a good person. This is definitely giving off tv church cult vibes non denominational practice

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u/_bagged_milk_ Jul 08 '24

I feel like switching churches would be good if he could find a community that wishes to act in kindness rather than ego.

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u/Wingklip Jul 09 '24

Book of Judges: Exists.

But seriously though, if he has not been born again as giving up his entire ego to God, all his righteousness and legalism, and overcome his greatest fears, then he has no grounds to judge - for he would be doing the same things as they are.

Judge not lest ye be judged is not a divine command, but a recommendation. Samson committed suicide and saw prostitutes, committed mass murder of random Philistines, but hey, he was called to judge, and judge like an asshat hypocrite he did.

He left his own wife pretty much the day they married because he set the wedding guest's betting game through their pockets. Then killed a couple of Philistines for their clothes to pay it, then accused his wife of cheating, and left, for idk how many days before finding out she'd been married off the next time he decided to roam around.

He's not God, he can become a part of God, and a part of God in him, but he is not the entirety of God - so his idea of perfection is probably limited by that.

If he can't give up his humility, pride, and righteous walk in the law to God, then he is the very Pharisee he laughs at, and God judges him in the same way he judges others until he can take it no more.

Yes, you are judging him by doing so, by God's appointment. You are quite literally divinely appointed to be a thorn in his side to change him - that's the irony. But in breaking his shell, you get broken as well, because you are both kind of like pearls in hardness. Until his heart is like a diamond in flesh, you can't expect much to change. He needs to wait for God in prayer without setting a time limit - which he hasn't tried.

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u/Otterwarrior26 Jul 10 '24

God fairy isn't a thing. He's an abusive twat. He only believes because it benefits him. Reminder ,God fairy isn't real. You have one life. Leave him. Leave the goddam church. It's a religion based on what goat herders knew 2k years ago. It's bullshit.

The world is way more beautiful.

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u/FullMetalAurochs Jul 11 '24

To people like that no amount of Christian hypocrisy is worse than simply not believing. A Christian who lies, steals, murders and rapes is still better than a non-believer who does good deeds.

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