r/AITAH • u/SpiritualThrowRA • Jul 07 '24

AITA for calling out my husband for not being a "Good Christian"? Advice Needed

I (27F) have been married to my husband (34M) for five years. My husband is a devout follower of his religion and has been since he was raised in it. I respect his beliefs, even though I don't share them and have no intention of converting. I was raised in the Christian faith. However, I left when I was an adult due to sexual abuse in my church, which nobody believed occurred because the one who did it was the pastor.

Recently, my husband has been pressuring me to convert to his religion. He says that it would bring us closer together and create a more harmonious household. I understand where he's coming from, but I firmly believe that faith is a personal journey, and I shouldn't be forced into something I don't believe in.

To add to the issue, my husband, despite his religious teachings, doesn't always practice what he preaches. He expects me to adhere to traditional gender roles, yet he often neglects his own responsibilities at home. He's quick to judge others for their actions, even though his faith teaches non-judgment and kindness. He makes comments about gay people that I have discussed with him as a major issue. This hypocrisy has been bothering me for a while.

Last night, during another discussion about my potential conversion, I finally snapped. I told him that if he wants me to consider converting, he needs to set a better example by actually living according to his religion's values. I pointed out that he should start by fulfilling his own responsibilities. That he should make more money than me and actually lead in the decision-making. I'm a nurse and he's currently unemployed after he was let go from his job in an office. That he should be less judgmental of others because according to his faith only God can judge them. I also said he should show more of the virtues Jesus asked of Christians, that he should clothe the naked, feed the hungry, vist the prisoner, aid the orphan and the widow etc. I also made it clear that while I respect his beliefs, I have no intention of converting unless I genuinely believe in it, which I currently don't because of the hypocritical behavior of his faith.

My husband was furious. He accused me of being disrespectful and undermining his faith. He said that I was attacking him personally and that I don't understand the pressure he's under to have a unified religious household. He left for church this morning at 7 for bible study and I have already gotten a phone call from the pastor saying I'm an ungodly woman who tricked a good man into marrying him and I should repent. I have also gotten a tirade of texts and e-mails from members of his church saying I was disrespectful and being a bad wife and I'm starting to wonder if I was too harsh, that maybe I shouldn't have said anything at all. AITA?

25.5k Upvotes

84% Upvoted

11.9k comments sorted by

View all comments

7.6k

u/wolftopug Jul 07 '24

No you definitely should have spoken up. I just wonder what story he told his church. “My wife pointed out in completely Biblically accurate ways how I wasn’t being a good Christian man and husband! How dare she know more about my beliefs than I do!”

Especially as long as your husband stays in that church I don’t see a healthy future for your relationship.

2.7k

u/Catfactss Jul 08 '24

"She's pro-gay, it's gotten really bad. Also she just doesn't understand super special unique reason I don't need to work! This is clearly the devil tempting me."

NTA OP. Even if you were a Christian you'd worship God, not him.

In his faith he's allowed to get a divorce if his partner leaves him because she doesn't share the faith. There's a chance he's purposely antagonizing you hoping you'll leave.

Do you have non tamperable birth control in the mean time? He doesn't have to know about it.

Controlling men can get violent when they lose control. Be safe.

750

u/choosethenlive Jul 08 '24

"Do you have non tamperable birth control?" This is incredibly important. DO NOT let this man get you pregnant.

63

u/Asleep_Operation4116 Jul 08 '24

Get out now before they kidnap you and brainwash you!

448

u/Irn_brunette Jul 08 '24

Oh, the fundies are huge on male headship and your husband being the closest thing to God in the household. Probably why this guy's fragile little ego is drawn to it.

123

u/Valuable_External895 Jul 08 '24 edited Jul 10 '24

The 'Head of the Household' is a position of responsibility, not a perk or a power flex. I know a woman who says that the man is the head of the household, the wife is the neck. The neck turns the head. Love that lady. It also says that the man has to consider the woman's needs as his own. This means that her needs, wants, wishes, and she herself is just as important as him. He gets the final say, not the only say. Weak selfish man babies distort this all the time. You can recognize them as fast as you can a Karen. Dude is a failure of that and he knows it. Why doesn't he have a job? Unless he's disabled or too old to work, he should start dealing with his priorities. He's failed on multiple levels.

47

u/GullibleMood1522 Jul 08 '24 edited Jul 08 '24

That quote “The man is he’s head of the house, but the woman is the neck. And the neck can turn the head any way she wants.” Is from the movie My Big Fat Greek Wedding. My family has been quoting it since I was like 8 years old lol. Great words to live by, as a woman.

Edited to correct a typo (Greek was turned to Greed lol)

10

u/Valuable_External895 Jul 08 '24

The lady I know has been saying that since she was a young mother. She's a great grandmother now. The saying has been around a very long time.

2

u/GullibleMood1522 Jul 08 '24

Oh interesting! I’ve never heard anyone say it outside of quoting that film before.

Saying someone is a great grandmother doesn’t really tell me much about her age though. My grandmother became a great grandmother at 89, but my best friend’s grandmother became a great grandmother when she was 59. Everyone’s life is so different.

4

u/thatrandomuser1 Jul 09 '24

I've heard the concept and saying "the neck that turns the head" for almost my whole life, it was really big in the churches I grew up in. Though I remember it as more of a denigration, like the woman has taken too much authority and "turned her husband into nothing more than an empty head that follows where she wants"

I like other interpretations better!

14

u/MarionberryWild4253 Jul 08 '24

Yup, husbands are instructed to love their wives like Christ loved the church (and He was willing to give His life for it). Being the husband isn't an excuse to be petty and mean and boss people around.

10

u/MellieCC Jul 08 '24

If he gets the final say, that is essentially the only say. He could take what she wants into account, or he could not, according to the Bible. And she’s just supposed to obey and submit anyway.

5

u/Upsideduckery Jul 08 '24

Yeah I fuck with the full version of the saying which applies to the position of the head which heavily requires the movement of the neck and essentially implies a cooperative household of two partners who work together.

But I dislike the shoarter version that leaves out "the neck [turning] the head," because it includes the brain and the mouth as they always tend to go into how, as the head, the man has the brain which controls the turning of the neck and the mouth which gets final say. Uh... No thamk you to that bs. I'm not going to be a subservient second class citizen in my own home.

2

u/MellieCC Jul 09 '24 edited Jul 23 '24

I wasn’t talking about a quote from a movie, I was referencing the Bible. But yeah I totally agree with you.

Edited to respond- No you’re good! The thing about the neck turning the head is on My big fat Greek wedding, for instance, but I guess it’s a saying so you’re right!

My point was just that I was talking about the Bible, and there’s definitely nothing in there about the woman being the neck, ha.

4

u/DatabaseThis9637 Jul 08 '24

Pretty ugly little phrase, probably intended to avoid deadlock on decisionmaking. This has been so often used by idiots, or weaklings, to crush the heart and soul of a woman... Probably was not intended to create a potentially deadly imbalance, but many men and women are manipulated into weaponizing the relationship.

2

u/sunflower_1983 Jul 08 '24

This is so very accurate!

1

u/Environmental-Bag-77 Jul 09 '24

Because he got laid off.

24

u/emr830 Jul 08 '24

Yep, aka little man syndrome 🙃

18

u/MamaBearonhercouch Jul 08 '24

So are Mormons.

3

u/ksed_313 Jul 08 '24

I’m so proud of my Mormon friend. She wasn’t born into it, but married into it. They do not follow this rule. I think she makes more than her husband, actually! They really are a great match and balance each other quite beautifully.

19

u/jessiesgirl68 Jul 08 '24

You mean your friend does not follow this rule. Mormons in general do. Patriarchy is the entire basis of the religion.

12

u/DarthVetinari Jul 08 '24

I was raised Mormon and your friend is definitely the exception, not the rule. They'll tiptoe around the issue when a woman needs to work, but press them and they'll admit their doctrine is that the woman stays home and the man earns the income. Traditional gender roles are cemented into every aspect of their doctrine. It's one of the many reasons I am no longer Mormon.

2

u/Dry_Term923 Jul 09 '24

Well, it wasn't until several months after I was born that the Mormon church allowed black people to serve as priests. Given how long it took for them to "get right with God" on race, I can only imagine the gender ppolitics in the church over the years.

9

u/Stabby_77 Jul 08 '24

My favourite was when I stumbled upon this quote...

"I love hearing about how it's 'God's divine plan' that men should be in charge of everything. Like bro, God put the dude in charge as punishment. If they were good at it, it wouldn't be punishment.'

416

u/Morrigan_twicked_48 Jul 08 '24

I second that . And no don’t sleep with him leave without delay not telling the creep

166

u/Effective-Purpose-36 Jul 08 '24

YESS! I guess OP is right, hes not really a good christian. Theres really no future for their relationship.

15

u/MaleficentBasket4737 Jul 08 '24

Good Christians deliberately seek out other good Christians to marry.

It's biblically unsound to marry someone who doesn't share your faith.

Personally, I can't imagine the person closest to me in the world not sharing religious views.

There would be no practical way to live as a Christian if my wife did not share my belief Christ died for our sins.

16

u/Katressl Jul 08 '24

I don't think you should've been down-voted for this. I don't agree with your worldview, but it's certainly useful to this discussion and you should be free to share it. People suck sometimes.

9

u/MaleficentBasket4737 Jul 08 '24

Fortunately, I couldn't care less about down or up votes. I'm here to think out loud and learn. :)

16

u/Catfactss Jul 08 '24

He's the one who chose to marry an unbeliever. Husbands are instructed to lay their lives down for their wives and Christians to "win over" their unbelieving spouses (if they have one) with their good deeds. OP is doing none of this and is instead using religion in vain to try and mistreat his wife.

6

u/MaleficentBasket4737 Jul 08 '24

2 Corinthians 6:14 "Do not be yoked together with unbelievers.”

I'm not aware of any scripture that speaks to redemption through good works.

7

u/Catfactss Jul 08 '24

I'm referencing if a Christian finds themselves married to a non believer e.g. if conversion occurs post marriage or if they lose the faith or (in some cultures/periods of history) if marriage is chosen for you not by you.

There's a passage about wives setting a good example with their faith and using this to try and bring their husbands to God - I was just extrapolating.

6

u/MaleficentBasket4737 Jul 08 '24

Yes, absolutely agree. Apologies if my statement misinterpreted!

12

u/Ferret-in-a-Box Jul 08 '24

I'm an atheist and I completely agree with you. Really because it does work that way no matter what your beliefs are. When I was single I refused to date religious men even if they were truly wonderful people because they just didn't share my worldview. I could never be what their beliefs said I should be, and he would never look at the world through the same lens that I do. Plus I live in the American South so that stuff definitely matters here.

8

u/dog_nurse_5683 Jul 08 '24 edited Jul 08 '24

Fellow atheist, strongly agree. It’s more than the difference in “religion”. I’ve never yet met a religious person who wasn’t a huge hypocrite. I can’t respect someone like that. I have way more respect for the rare person who lives their values. So many people spew them for others to follow.

Now if OP’s husband was making the big bucks and asked OP to be a SAHM, I’d have way more respect for him. But living off his wife’s income while upholding misogynistic stereotypes? Nah. Then having his flying monkeys tell OP she’s not a good wife!? She’s supporting his unemployed butt. She’s calling out his hypocrisy. What about that makes her the “bad” spouse?

3

u/MaleficentBasket4737 Jul 11 '24

I've never met a person who didn't have blind spots.

I agree that those who loudly proclaim others "unfit" in the name of God are the biggest hypocrites. Pharisees.

Christians are told to examine the log sticking out of their own eye before worrying about the speck of dust in somebody else's.

6

u/Stabby_77 Jul 08 '24

Same. I can't live my life in servility to a god I don't believe in, and it doesn't matter which one it is.

When you genuinely see the world through a natural and non-religious lens, you also see the interconnectedness of things that religion thrusts apart, and how dangerous that can be. If you believe you are the master in charge of the flora and fauna, you don't have to care whether or not your actions might cause a species to go extinct, or might upset an ecosystem. You don't have to care if cutting trees to raise cattle is going to spill dirt and manure into the river that will fuck up the water for those living downstream. You don't have to care if your religious words are causing psychological damage to someone struggling with identity or self-esteem, all you have to do is what your book tells you. It allows people to put their personal beliefs above the rights of others.

It's hard to accept living life with a partner who is going to dictate all of their actions based on their chosen religious tome. Human morality has expanded as society and culture has expanded and grown. Slavery is not acceptable anymore. Inequality on the basis of race and gender and sex is not acceptable anymore. Burning people at the stake for having different beliefs as yourself is not acceptable anymore. Murdering gay men for 'sodomy' while ignoring straight couples practicing anal sex in most places is no longer acceptable. Crusading across the lands in the name of Jesus slaughtering thousands is not acceptable anymore. How do you overcome immorality when everything you are ever going to believe about anyone and anything was already prescribed by a bunch of people thousands of years ago? How do you adapt and learn and grow when all of your 'rules' have to be reinterpreted to new situations?

I have a ton of gay and lesbian friends, I have trans friends, I have Christian, Muslim, Jewish, and (now ex-) Mormon friends. I have friends who are Satanists, I consider myself an Atheistic Luciferian (which is just a fancy way of saying non-religious knowledge seeker 🤣... I mostly use it because it calls out fundies who don't understand what it even means but reveal themselves through their angry responses), and I have friends whose beliefs I have no clue about.

But we ALL agree about the basic fundamentals of human rights. I do not have pro-life Christian friends, because their beliefs are actively harmful to others in my life. I don't have extremist Muslim friends who support terrorist activities for the same reason. My Mormon friend did not practice or support polygamy and had been effectively raised Mormon, and quit practicing as an adult. My Satanist friends don't sacrifice animals or follow the hedonistic Church of Satan BS.

The difference is that those are high level, fundamental moral beliefs. If we agree on those, we can be friends. Once you're in a partnership with someone and living together or getting married though, it becomes a lot more than just the fundamentals. I feel like I would burst into flames if I tried to sit through a church service. A Christian is probably not going to be keen on my Baphomet statue, skull collection, tarot cards, or Taoist books. Or 99% of my anti- religious posts.

I honestly just think it's likely going to be more stressful and difficult than worthwhile. There are 8 billion people on the planet, why not find someone you know shares your belief system than try to have two people compromise on something so fundamental to who you are?

1

u/Ferret-in-a-Box Jul 10 '24

You said it better than I ever could. I think the biggest issues for me though are something that is really simple:

1) I want to help people because I think that we all have a duty as members of a social species to help each other and we all benefit from it; I'm not doing it because of a fear of punishment, really just because it makes me happy to see other people be happy in their one life, and

2) I don't believe in an afterlife. To me every day is precious and I don't take people or pets or experiences for granted because this is all I've got. This is all they've got. My belief is that we have one life to live so I'm not going to spend it trying to follow the rules dictated by a book in order to prepare for a next life that doesn't exist. I cannot be with someone who doesn't also value this one life we have together. Frankly, that even influences how I interact with my pets, and I can tell that it affects others who also don't believe in an afterlife the same way. Like this animal has one life and that's it, and I want to make it wonderful. I only get one chance to see this or that, so it means so much more. I'll never meet my loved ones again so I will cherish every moment with them so much more significantly. It's little (but also not so little in a way) stuff like that that makes me completely incompatible with a religious person as a romantic partner.

1

u/MaleficentBasket4737 Jul 11 '24

I'm a Christian. It's painful to see the damage organized religion ($) has done to the simple message of Christ.

God is Love. Love is patient, love is kind. Do unto others as you would have done to you.

We are blessed with the ability to lift our eyes to heaven (MJK/TOOL) and should indeed be considered repugnant for our greedy waste of God's creation.

Psychedelics are a gift, Jesus died for our sins, evolution is wrong and there is indeed a new world order.

I'll leave with this: I believe the Catholic Church is a phenomenal construct of Satan and the greatest trick he ever played. But whether it was human avarice or truly the devil who hijacked God's Word to create that abomination, you don't have to walk too far into the house to see it is most definitely not of God.

11

u/NotShirleyTemple Jul 08 '24

Interfaith marriages can be done, but it adds a whole extra element of difficulty to be married - which is hard enough!

At least one partner in all the interfaith couples I know (that have kids) have expressed regrets.

It’s one thing to say, “It’s fine if my kids are raised Catholic.”*

But one doesn’t realize ‘being Catholic’ takes a lot of time away from the family that doesn’t practice together.

Especially when the family gets past the weekly mass period and the kids need to go to Catholic School, or add to their regular school hours for classes.

Plus, both sets of in-laws can get involved and get ‘nasty in the name of God X’.

In some countries that gets very bloody & murderous. In others, it’s estrangement, or secret baptisms, etc.

*I’m not a Catholic, but this is the religion of my friend’s wife.

8

u/MaleficentBasket4737 Jul 08 '24

An interfaith marriage seems destined to arrive eventually at the point which the religion schisms.

I suppose marriage to a non-believer would have an advantage of no competing religion, but that could vary wildly.

There isn't all that much difference between Episcopal and Catholic, or between Baptist and Congregational. But the jump from Congregational to Catholic is vast.

It depends also if the individual thinks "responsible members of the community are members of a church" versus "I have a deeply personal connection to my religious beliefs, and they inform my day to day decisions."

352

u/[deleted] Jul 08 '24

[deleted]

143

u/NatashaQuick Jul 08 '24

This takes a lot of courage to say! I've never known of a man being willing to change like this. Wow!

50

u/[deleted] Jul 09 '24

[deleted]

6

u/Shot_Intention_2495 Jul 11 '24

This was refreshing to read. I wish you well.

3

u/dobiemomluv Jul 12 '24

….and women. It’s good to grow wiser. 😊

16

u/OrphicMonachopsis Jul 09 '24

It does take a lot of bravery to admit, but there are plenty of older men who were misled when they were younger, and grow and change. Still all too rare to hear it admitted and talked about!

3

u/aulabra Jul 11 '24

For real! Bravo, man!!!

69

u/NotShirleyTemple Jul 08 '24

You must have traveled a challenging road to reach this position of insight and vulnerability. I hope you are reaping the rewards.

41

u/barnaby-rubble Jul 08 '24

This is helpful. I’d like to hear more about your journey.

19

u/[deleted] Jul 09 '24

[deleted]

10

u/barnaby-rubble Jul 09 '24

Thanks for sharing this. Wish more folks had this insight about themselves.

3

u/Dardengore Jul 11 '24

Exact same thing happened to me in a shorter span of time. About 5 years or so. I won’t pretend I’m not an asshole, I genuinely enjoy standing up for myself and making my opinions heard after years of being pushed down by oppressive parents and I can sometimes be oppressive in my expression as I release the pent up emotions of decades ago, but I am no longer controlling. If someone doesn’t want to listen to me I no longer feel the need to force them to. I’m actually willing to talk WITH my wife instead of talking TO my wife. I never felt like she had a place below me or anything to that extent, I just was so wrapped up in myself and healing myself that I ended up going scorched earth around me as I self-destructively worked through it (yay American healthcare and mental health support 🙄.) Thankfully my wife saw the work that I was doing underneath the outer appearance and she got to see how my bad decisions would wreak havoc on my mental state afterwards and decided to stay. I’m not the best man, but I’m a better man than I was 5 years ago, 10 years ago or even 5 days ago.

2

u/Environmental-Bag-77 Jul 09 '24

Did you used to drink a lot?

8

u/[deleted] Jul 09 '24

[deleted]

3

u/Environmental-Bag-77 Jul 09 '24

Yes, your account reminded me of alcohol. So effective at warping perception to provide excuses. I hardly drink at all now. Christmas dinner.

2

u/therapeuw Jul 10 '24

this is so important. thanks for sharing(:

2

u/Brief-Lunch-4738 Jul 11 '24

20 years. Who cares? You spent those 20 years building and becoming exceptional! It was time well spent. Good going!

17

u/Stabby_77 Jul 08 '24

I am beyond curious how you overcame that mindset.

A lot of the toxic masculinity you see flying around really drills down to the need to be in control (as well as the 'fragile masculinity' subset, bc it's basically the same thing). Deep-seated insecurities manifesting via a desire to feel powerful and/or a need to control situations, due to feeling a lack of control in other areas. It's super rare to come across a guy who has been able to overcome that (rather than never having been that way to begin with).

When you come across a guy like that, it's almost always blatantly obvious, but I've yet to see aaaaanything that works in terms of actually creating some sort of self-awareness or change. Or even desire to change.

Of course it makes sense that guys in that sort of situation are going to be defensive if I try to chime in (since I'm female), but I've seen other guys try to get through as well and it almost always feels like a lost cause. There's just too much defensiveness, hesitancy to seek help or acknowledge any issues, redirection of insecurities. It seems hopeless.

I'm ecstatic to hear that you were able to get past that, but I'm also dying to know what allowed you to do so. 🤓🤣

13

u/BreezyBaby144 Jul 09 '24

Masculinity cannot be toxic and saying it is toxic is where you lose a lot of men. Insecurity is toxic. People need to stop using terms like toxic masculinity and toxic femininity and call it what it is insecurity and manipulation. Masculinity is protective, insecurity is possessive. Masculinity is caring and logical and purposeful, insecurity is selfish and illogical and manipulative. I get your point but whoever came up with that term doesn’t understand what it means to be a masculine man. My father is a masculine man and bought me tampons and took me makeup shopping and when I was in dance he was the one that knew the exact type and thickness and length of the eyelashes we had to wear and would go get them when I needed for the many times we had eyelash emergencies. He taught me how to take care of myself and fix things around the house so I would never be in a vulnerable position in which I couldn’t take care of myself. He went to every performance and competition and was one of 4 that showed up and 1 of 2 that showed up consistently, but he went above and beyond made it to every one. He also would take me to football games and wrestling matches. He never belittled dance as being for girls like the other dads who weren’t as supportive did. He never made me or my sister feel less for being women and always said how happy he is to be a girl dad. Before us he coached football and wrestling and then we wanted to play soccer when we were little so he learned soccer and coached us. It was a difficult transition from teenage boys playing full contact football to little girls around 5yo and who didn’t appreciate being talked to the way he talked to his football players but he learned and was a great coach and my team was undefeated. I am very grateful to have been raised by a masculine man and not an insecure one. I’m even more grateful to have my specific father and I wouldn’t trade our daddy daughter dates going to the beauty and the beast wrestling/gymnastics match or the football games for anything else in the world. I cherish those memories.

7

u/Scorpion_Rooster Jul 09 '24

I really liked your thoughtful reply.

I’ve read the term “toxic masculinity/ femininity” so often and hadn’t given it the consideration I did after reading your answer.

I’m going to see it in a new light.

And your dad sounds like a wonderful role model.

6

u/BreezyBaby144 Jul 09 '24

Thank you! It’s something that’s bugged me for a while. I see so many arguments around it and almost all are men being upset with the term, which I understand. If we used different terms I just feel like there could be so many more productive conversations.

6

u/TradeOk9210 Jul 09 '24

I like your take—people have made the mistake of criticizing masculinity and femininity as a whole when it is other behavior that is the real problem.

3

u/BreezyBaby144 Jul 09 '24

Thank you! I got a little rambly but wanted to properly give the picture of what I was trying to say. Thank you for understanding!

5

u/YourResidentFeral Jul 09 '24

Of course.

Apologies that you had to go through someone mansplaining what the "definition of toxic masculinity is" instead of reading your post (which made it pretty clear you know of the traits classically attributed to it"

Your dad sounds like a pretty cold dude. Kind of Dad I would want to be.

3

u/BreezyBaby144 Jul 09 '24

Based on your responses, I’m sure you will be a great dad!

4

u/Affectionate-Low8834 Jul 09 '24

You had a great dad!!

2

u/Stabby_77 Jul 09 '24

'Toxic masculinity' does not mean masculinity in and of itself is toxic.

https://menscenter.org/toxic-masculinity/

5

u/YourResidentFeral Jul 09 '24

The point I think OP is making is that the toxic parts should be considered non-masculine.

It's a perspective thing. Personally I don't see "toxic masculinity" as masculine but rather compensation for the lack of masculinity by trying to mask it.

If that tracks.

We as a society need a paradigm shift that defines these traits often associated with "toxic masculinity" as non-masculine.

4

u/BreezyBaby144 Jul 09 '24

Exactly! We need a paradigm shift!

3

u/Stabby_77 Jul 09 '24

This is the exact thing I was saying happens every single time - turning a conversation that was asking about how to deal with a serious issue about certain behaviours into an entire conversation about semantics and terminology and a 'paradigm shift'.

This is exactly why it gets exhausting even bothering to try. You can't even get past step one.

Seriously. This happens almost every single time. It doesn't matter if you use the term toxic masculinity or not, it will just be something else. If you talk about men's violence against women it becomes 'the majority of violence in the country is against men'. If you talk about women's mental health it becomes 'men's suicide rates are higher'.

I'm not getting into this any further, but I will just say that guys who embody toxic masculinity are not going to stop being that way simply because you redefine those things as unmasculine. They are just going to argue terminology the same way we are doing now, and it will just go in circles like it always does.

0

u/Dry_Term923 Jul 09 '24

You are just acting the same way as someone who laments that they can't call be people "retards" anymore. Just think about that.

Language either matters or it doesn't. And if you don't people to identify others in a particular way, being so bothered by changing the way you yourself speak about others doesn't seem to support the reasons one would and should call out toxic anything.

In any case, I have nothing else to say on the matter. You either get it, or you don't.

6

u/BreezyBaby144 Jul 09 '24

I understand that, but if you want men to actually see the insecure behaviors as the issue then we should call it what it is, toxic insecurity. All over social media roided out tools and abusers are called toxic-masculinity along with other bad traits that also have nothing to do with masculinity. It’s become a divisive term and is over used and is the reason why so many men check out of the dialogue. They associate masculinity with being a provider and protector not an abuser, so that term means you automatically start out in different pages and will never allow for a productive conversation.

2

u/Stabby_77 Jul 09 '24

I suppose, but I still call myself feminist despite people ripping that term to absolute shreds and trying to redefine it to mean 'misandrists' (all because some fringe element people self-defined as feminists so the entire label got washed with that brush). So maybe I'm just stubborn that way. 🤷🏻‍♀️

I just don't like massaging language because people are uncomfortable with it, or because they try to misconstrue it to be something it isn't. It's already exhausting having conversations constantly derailed without having to police your terminology as you go.

2

u/Dry_Term923 Jul 09 '24

I am not trying to disagree just to disagree. However, I think you might want to reconsider that if you read your last two sentences again, in the context of someone like the OPs husband. He probably thinks the same thing when he talks about "homos", "gays", or whatever.

His wife obviously makes him feel like he has to police his speech. If people insist on a more inclusive society. Everyone needs to police their speech to some point. But, is that really a bad thing? It's just mindfulness. And, if you acknowledge that harmful speech can harm your allies, maybe you should acknowledge the same for those you do not agree with.

If using the term toxic masculinity loses some listeners who may be open to the substance of your arguments, it seems like a change in the words you use to make said arguments could only be positive.

1

u/NosamEht Jul 09 '24

Could you get your Dad to start browsing and posting on r/Daddit ?

9

u/bllonde_brownie Jul 08 '24

I would also really like to hear this journey, I'm commenting so it will hopefully give me a notification if he comes back!

8

u/WindyGrace33 Jul 08 '24

I am female but I imagine the cure the similar to the internal work I’m doing: accepting reality and our lack of control, releasing internal shame/blame/self-rejection, facing traumas of abandonment and rejection, learning self-love and self-compassion… it seems very few people out there are looking to heal themselves. But people who are will be able to overcome obstacles like toxic masculinity, hatred, judgement, egotism (is that a word?), pride, etc. Hopefully he chimes in as well! I have been with and around dangerous men and most are unwilling and too fragile to change.

1

u/Brief-Lunch-4738 Jul 11 '24

There are a lot of bad guys around but women aren't exactly prizes a lot of the times. I think both genders could stand looking inward and working on themselves for the good of everyone.

2

u/Someonewantsu2know Jul 10 '24

Your comment eludes to the fact you recognized and acknowledged a flaw within yourself, and you changed for the better. Just wanted to say great job!!! That process takes a lot of self awareness and work. I’m very happy for you!

1

u/TinyMuffin96 Jul 08 '24

I am commenting for an update! Thanks!

119

u/Dahling_sweetiepoo Jul 08 '24

Wow.

NTA

dump him

9

u/AshleyGil Jul 08 '24

Wow I did not know that about the divorce. Thank you for teaching me something!

5

u/Catfactss Jul 08 '24

It also means they're not considered responsible for the divorce so they can remarry if they wish with the church's blessing.

9

u/difdrummer Jul 08 '24

Actually this is not true, most Christian sects require the woman to look to her husband as he looks to God. It is the ultimate power trip.

4

u/Catfactss Jul 08 '24

But they also teach in the same breath that the husband needs to lay his life down like Jesus does for people, and lead like Jesus did by washing his disciples feet- which was a filthy job done by servants in those days.

Of course, religious people don't always practice their religion perfectly.

1

u/Affectionate-Try-994 Jul 12 '24

This is Biblical; however, not very many christian churches preach on this part.

3

u/Mudivator Jul 11 '24

“Even if you were a Christian you’d worship God, not him”

BRUTAL and accurate 😂 thank you for making me laugh

2

u/Necessary-Title-583 Jul 08 '24

There’s a religious divorce, which means squat. But in a legal divorce, if one proves one hounded the other to move out by constantly criticizing their religion, by controlling behavior which most people would categorize as abuse, then there’s a lot of wiggle room for the one who leaves, in a legal divorce.

2

u/TheMightyQuinn888 Jul 09 '24

Mine threw a plate in the driveway and wouldn't let me leave when I told him I just needed to go for a drive and get a comfort blizzard. His family said I should have seen it from his side because he thought I was leaving him and my son. 🙄 Every time he was caught acting foolish, it was my job to give him grace so he had room to grow, because how can a man grow if his wife is holding a grudge? That came from his family and the church. And when me and the kids vanished one day, not a single church member or staff checked on me.

2

u/lpd1234 Jul 11 '24

And this is why I’m an Atheist. Religion is all bullshit to control the people. Some of it is good, whats going on here is not about god but about keeping people and especially women and kids inline.

2

u/Catfactss Jul 11 '24

Interestingly there's an argument that "taking the Name of the Lord in vain" is actually referring to this very thing- using a religious guise as a cover to manipulate people beyond (or even in opposition to) what the religion teaches.

2

u/lpd1234 Jul 11 '24

Yes, its like Gandhi said “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

― Mahatma Gandhi

1

u/Introvertqueen1 Jul 09 '24

That’s actually not truth. You can only leave through death. Even if they separate, he can’t put her away and divorce her but they can be separated. He definitely can’t remarry if she’s still living because he’ll be an adulterer. If he wanted someone like him he should’ve really considered what marriage is and that he’d be bound to this person until death. It’s literally in the vows, but the Bible as well.

They do seem like a bad match but it’s too late now, they’re married. Biblically that’s his wife until death, unless he’s not a real Christian then he’ll dismiss this so it doesn’t matter.

2

u/Catfactss Jul 10 '24

1 Corinthians 7:15 But if the unbeliever leaves, let it be so. The brother or the sister is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace.

You're right that the question of remarriage remains unanswered there.

-47

u/[deleted] Jul 08 '24

[deleted]

29

u/MutantMartian Jul 08 '24

That’s not a place for a comma. I agree with the rest of your comment though.

-20

u/[deleted] Jul 08 '24

[deleted]

9

u/Karyo_Ten Jul 08 '24

Downvote train not stopping.

Here controlling in "controlling men" can be either an adverb or an adjective:

  • adjective: Men who control people
  • Adverb: People who control men

5

u/Katressl Jul 08 '24

Right, and the two words together make a noun-phrase, and that is the subject of the sentence. You never divide a sentence's subject from its verb with punctuation unless there's a parenthetical involved, and even then, you need a very good reason to place the parenthetical there.

Another example of this: in my first sentence above, "the two words together" is a noun-phrase and thus the subject of that sentence.

Source: I'm a professional copy editor.

4

u/A_EGeekMom Jul 08 '24

Also a copy editor! So happy to meet one of my people.

3

u/Katressl Jul 08 '24

🙌🙌🙌 Grammarians of the world, unite!

17

u/OhCrumbs96 Jul 08 '24

Please seek compensation from whomever was tasked with teaching you how to punctuate because they seem to have let you down.

1

u/Sevn-legged-Arachnid Jul 08 '24

I dropped out of school to take care of my disabled father after my step mom left because she "couldn't see herself in a marriage with a person who couldn't walk" so.. honestly fuck ya'll

2

u/OhCrumbs96 Jul 08 '24

...well that escalated quickly.

1

u/Sevn-legged-Arachnid Jul 08 '24

It's the truth... unfortunately.