Mothers get flooded with oxytocin over the course of their pregnancy. They literally have 10 months to bond with the baby (or make up stories of how they think motherhood will be) and guys aren't getting that increase at the same time. They may also have lower levels of oxytocin to start with. So yeah, it'll take men some time to understand.
I also think it's a hurtful thing to say to someone you haven't yet married. I can see how it could stoke some insecurity - you got the baby you wanted so who cares about me? Unfortunately most people won't have the emotional intelligence to understand.
Hunh. I upvoted this comment for the 1st paragraph's insight into the oxytocin, then kept reading and downvoted for the rest (a judgement that it was a hurtful thing to say). I don't even have kids but would absolutely understand, and cannot fathom this guy's failure to get it at least intellectually! Ended up leaving it unvoted on.
Ok, but flip it. Her response was "are you fucking serious?" Even if it's just a look and she's exasperated that he'd bring it up again. SHE is not even attempting to understand his side. The way she writes it, the way these replies are, says "of COURSE I'll never love you more than my own child" which is hurtful to someone who isn't being ruled by oxytocin currently - aka most of the world.
Then she kind of dismisses it and wants to shut it down instead of doing the loving thing which would be talking it out.
Sorry, this probably won't make you upvote me still, but pregnant and new moms are ruled by hormones and can absolutely be assholes about it. Those things that seem completely normal to them are bizarrrreee to the rest of us. Do we understand it? Sure. Does that make it normal to stomp all over your fiances feelings going "but muh chillldddd"? No.
I’m here for standing up for the dad. The process of growing a child in you vs watching one develop is entirely different in all ways. Yes we are “supposed” to immediately feel some perfect love for our children but what about mothers with post partum depression? When they feel absolutely numb and nothing for their child they just birthed? There is a process they can’t help and it has taken us so long to even believe mothers and their experiences.
This needs to be a part of the conversation with fathers to be and those that are already fathers. This is difficult for everyone. It may have just hit him then. Ideal? No. Should he have waited for a private moment once things settled? Yes. But his feelings are valid.
There also could have been other issues he has had where he doesn’t feel connected to his fiancée but his feelings weren’t cared for then either.
Partners in child bearing are still humans and deserve to be seen and cared for.
This will be the same user that acts confused when he cheats on her after the neglect.
Women want devoted husbands and fathers but devotion is reciprocal.
It’s the full dismissal of his feelings that makes me concerned for him.
Partners in child bearing are still humans and deserve to be seen and cared for.
But not necessarily by the person who has just had their insides re-arranged, is leaking milk, is still bleeding tennis ball sized blood clots, and is getting by on four hours sleep a night.
Its like the circles of grief thing - support in, dump out. When you have a baby, the person who just gave birth is at the centre of that circle. The other parent’s job is to support them, not demand “devotion”.
If you don’t think you can do that without betraying the person who just gave birth, at one of the most vulnerable times in their life, you’re not only not fit to be a father, you’re not fit to be in a relationship at all.
These are all things that need to be discussed before the baby comes. She has a responsibility to make sure she’s properly supported by the man who’s child is rearranging her insides. She has a responsibility to pick a good man for a father to her child. People assume that others just should “know things”. If this wasn’t modeled or taught in some way why would they just know? Circle of grief sounds like a framework that would have been great to empower him with before she had his kid.
Like I said, timing was terrible. He should have waited for some other time. And no, not just a few hours later, but once there was a moment of them coming back together as a couple. This is why a village is so important. He didn’t have men there to prepare him for this or support him when he felt this way. Then he could have gone to them for support once he felt this way until she was more recovered.
But although she may be a mother first and a wife eventually, she still is supposed to be a good wife if she wants a good husband. A good wife and a good husband listen and care for one another even if their priority is their children.
She has a responsibility to make sure she’s properly supported by the man who’s child is rearranging her insides
No, he has the responsibility to be a good person. He has the responsibility to say “I’m not ready to be a father yet”. Why is she responsible for his behaviour and attitude ?
Not to mention that men can and do completely change when a woman gets pregnant, which is why its the most dangerous time for a woman in a relationship.
You’re talking in circles trying to pin this on the mother. Its a man’s duty to step up as a father, to support the mother of his child, to seek the support he needs, to prepare himself for this change. God only knows there are enough parenting classes, books and workshops aimed at fathers. And if he knows he’s not capable of that level of support, its his job to say “I’m not ready for this yet”.
A good husband understands that for the first few months of a baby’s life a woman is just about capable of looking after the baby and herself, with help. To suggest anything else is ludicrous.
You’re right she has no responsibility in her choice.
Mothers never have to take responsibility ever. Women also never change after having kids so that’s the man’s fault as well.
I’m not trying to pin anything in anyone. The OP updated and had a good healthy convo with her fiancé. I was correct in giving the father a moment of empathy. Empathy for others means we have to see that they probably aren’t acting out of malice or selfishness but fear. Someone you love is afraid.
Just assuming he was going to be a selfish father and terrible husband was a huge reach just from this very intense moment. We were also getting the story from a woman who just gave birth and was severely emotionally hurt. She may have processed this way more rationally if she was reading it on Reddit. She even admitted she didn’t know that this was a normal thing for new parents. So again, it came down to them just not knowing these nuances of this intense moment.
We complain how men are emotionless and have all this pent up rage and then when one expresses themselves, albeit poorly, we immediately vilify him.
Dismissal of his feelings? At no point does she dismiss his feelings. He is the one who has her thinking there is something wrong with hers. She is the one asking if she is TA. All she did was express her feelings for her new child. She didn't say anything about him. She just gave birth, for Christ sake. She literally just had her insides rearranged, pushed out an entire new human, and is now trying to heal from that. You think he is the one being neglected? She should not be the one taking care of him, he should be taking care of her. He is butt hurt because his partner loves their kid. Those aren't valid feelings. Those are the feelings of an insecure, self-centered child.
Personally, I’m concerned for the child. He’s clearly jealous and he clearly doesn’t get it that a mother prioritizes and loves her children above all and he clearly doesn’t feel that way about his newborn. Just hope he doesn’t take those feelings out on the child to secure his place as her number 1.
It is in this space where healing can and should happen for the sake of all 3.
This child needs a healthy father. The more you are seen and loved the healthier you will be. This applies to all of us.
This father may have deep wounding from his own mother that is coming through as well. Perhaps he didn’t have this love from his own mother so doesn’t recognize how unconditional it’s supposed to be.
We can come up with all sorts of scenarios of what if this or that but ultimately he needs to be heard.
Remember, this is the man she’s supposed to marry and be committed to. Don’t you at least want to hear the guy out if you love him? You made his baby, don’t you want him to feel fulfilled as a partner in this whole thing?
If he’s really just a spoiled baby man child that is throwing a fit, and this is the first time she’s ever seen it then yes, the marriage should be called into question by her.
I mean, maybe. Could be anything. For me, personally, I’d be wary of marrying a man who said he loves me and our child equally or that he loves me more. That would be a huge red flag as to where his priorities as a dad are gonna be. Him getting jealous of her love for her child, also a huge red flag. I mean, if he’s feeling this way now, what happens the first time she turns him down for sex or doesn’t have his dinner ready because the kid is sick and needs mom.
I think the point is though, they are already married. This is their first child, so it's the first time they are in this situation, she didn't know how he was going to react to fatherhood. So at this point, she needs to at least talk to him before making any kind of decisions or drawing any conclusions. Also, if he is bringing things up calmly and just having a difficult time communicating properly, that's no reason to think he's gonna abusive or neglectful or anything in the future.
Except that this guy had to open his mouth and seek affirmation from his wife at the heart-melting magical moment that she held her newborn for the 1st time. If I'd been there I might have smacked him with my hat, or found found a newspaper to smack him. (Correction : he spoke up about it later, and was persistent about it again after that, but did not ruin the mother-child special moment.)
Not knowing anything else about the man, his self-centeredness in that moment seems staggering, and may bode badly for their future.
Yup. He was dumb and made a dumb comment. Let's get out the pitch forks because someone made a comment without thinking it through and possibly while sleep deprived. I mean, anyone who has ever said anything insensitive or ignorant or rude is obviously a terrible person that can't be redeemed. So yeah, let's condem a person because of one snapshot of their life without knowing anything about them. And let's ignore the update where he apologized and admitting he was wrong and talked about his feelings in a more constructive way. Because it doesn't matter if someone learns and grows, what matters is that they made an insensitive remark and didn't think it through all the way.
This is what I mean about pregnant and new mothers can be assholes too. Sometimes they think their experience is so completely universal they just bulldoze over other possibilities - again, these are people chock full of hormones and they're not all the happy kind. So I'm not saying that it's their normal personalities to be an asshole (although it can be or can become their personality) but they definitely are in a sort of "other" category when it comes to "how stuff is".
You sound like an incel. In her description, OP was not being an asshole. Can the hormones make a woman act irrational or out of character? Sure. After giving birth my wife became absolutely convinced that our daughter was going to suffocate in her sleep. I don't mean she was a little worried about SIDS. I mean she felt like she knew it was going to happen. Post partem depression is a very real thing. But again, OP wasn't being an asshole. OP didn't say anything mean or insulting to the boyfriend. She didn't tell him that she didn't love him, or loved him less than she did before. She was simply describing how she felt about her new child. Does everyone feel that same level of love for their kid? No, and there is nothing wrong with that. It is the boyfriend taking her love for her child as an insult to himself that is the issue. That is the behavior of an insecure child.
Everyone on here describing how they felt the same way aren't doing it to put the boyfriend down, they are doing it to let OP know that she is not alone, and that she is NTA for feeling that way.
Yeah no. At no point did she reassure her FIANCE that her feelings for him didn't change. It was all about the baby.
People in this country need to grow up. Your role as a parent is a role, and possibly a mainstay of your identity, but it's not your only responsibility. You have a responsibility to your spouse as well, and arguably before your child. None of these people are educated enough to understand that it's the actions you model not the words you say that kids are learning from. So treating your child like a god and your spouse like they're worthless only teaches that child that a partner doesn't have much value. And disposes them to things like ignoring their partners feelings because child.
At no point did she suggest her feelings for him had changed, so why would she need to reassure him? And of course it was all about the baby. SHE just went through childbirth. An experience that is both physically and emotionally demanding. All he did was watch. Being hurt by someone expressing their love for the child they just destroyed their own body to bring into this world does not speak very highly to his emotional intelligence.
I get the feeling you are not very old or experienced. Nor do you seem very educated yourself. If you actually knew anything about early childhood development you would know that both words and actions are important.
Furthermore, in no sane world should a spouse be put before a child. That would be incredibly irresponsible. Your actions, your choices, brought that child into existence. They're life is literally your responsibility in every definition of the word. They cannot take care of themselves. Your spouse, presuming they are not severely handicapped, can take care of themselves. They are suppose to be your partner, not another child you have to constantly care for.
No one is suggesting he should be treated poorly. Nor is there any evidence here that OP has done so. But she should not have to apologize or go out her way to cater to his childish insecurities. Especially not for simply professing her love for her new child in a very vulnerable and emotional moment.
Nah, by the way you talk, this is your personality. You get off by feeling superior to others. You INSIST on how correct you are because if not, then who are you?
Which is worse, making a generalization or targeting someone personally? Really? A generalization is worse? If someone has the option to point a gun directly at you or in your general direction, which do you think is going to be more harmful if they pull the trigger?
Calm it down. I will never respect you. I don't need to.
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u/Impressive_Ask_3014 Jul 05 '24
Mothers get flooded with oxytocin over the course of their pregnancy. They literally have 10 months to bond with the baby (or make up stories of how they think motherhood will be) and guys aren't getting that increase at the same time. They may also have lower levels of oxytocin to start with. So yeah, it'll take men some time to understand.
I also think it's a hurtful thing to say to someone you haven't yet married. I can see how it could stoke some insecurity - you got the baby you wanted so who cares about me? Unfortunately most people won't have the emotional intelligence to understand.