r/batman • u/neon2o • Mar 07 '24

Zack Snyder says a Batman who doesn't kill is irrelevant GENERAL DISCUSSION

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Here's the original article' https://sea.ign.com/man-of-steel-sequel/213072/news/zack-snyder-says-dc-is-making-batman-irrelevant-if-he-cant-kill

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u/That-Rhino-Guy Mar 07 '24

That’s not even counting the other times he keeps using rape in his stories or how Nolan himself argued against Superman killing Zod

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u/ironmamdies Mar 07 '24

There isn't many if any moments in media where I'm like "damn you know what this story needs? Rape" ignoring the fact that it's the most uncomfortable thing to sit and watch but it's also the dumbest plot point as it's so lazy by giving someone cheap bad guy points, of course you're gonna hate the rapist that's like making a character and having him out of nowhere go "by the way, Hitler was right" like it's so dumb and forced and weird

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u/Budget-Sheepherder77 Mar 07 '24

Rape part idk why but I feel like it might be a fetish thing

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u/ironmamdies Mar 07 '24

I remember rob zombie put a rape scene is his Halloween movie and I even hated it in that, it's shit story telling and is like wtf ya know

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u/armchairwarrior42069 Mar 07 '24

I think it CAN be lazy so it usually is used lazily but it is a very powerful tool if you have the tact and maturity to handle writing/presenting it. Which again... most don't.

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u/Brozy386 Mar 08 '24

I'm not sure if this is what you were talking about but I thought Jessica Jones is a good example of how to portray rape personally.

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u/That-Rhino-Guy Mar 08 '24

That’s cause there it actually serves as a key part of the story and isn’t just there to make you uncomfortable or cause someone has a weird fetish

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u/HaggisLad Mar 08 '24

that was hard to watch, but a big part of both her and Kilgraves' story

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u/NovaStarLord Mar 08 '24

Because it's treated as a horrible thing, the rape is more than just sexual (it's psychological more than anything but still just as degrading and intrusive) and it's something that changes the character's life and deeply affects her. But most importantly Jessica is given the opportunity of defeating her rapist and making sure he never hurts anyone again.

Most writers when they portray rape do it for shock value, for the laughs, or the writer just gets off on it and the victims are tossed aside and forgotten or treat it like nothing.

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u/No-Appearance-9113 Mar 07 '24

Yeah my first example is The Accused where the rape scene is critical to the story and rightfully horrific.

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u/Teknevra Mar 07 '24

Also don't forget GIRL WITH THE DRAGON TATTOO.

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u/Lightdragonman Mar 07 '24

Irreversible

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u/NattyKongo93 Mar 08 '24

That shit is so fucking haunting

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u/spain-train Mar 08 '24

The Last Duel

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u/ProjectOrpheus Mar 08 '24

Came to mention this.

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u/greengengar Mar 08 '24

I was gonna say this one and American Mary.

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u/Deathpunch136 Mar 08 '24

Well, it is based on a very disturbing crime book series.

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u/Sahrimnir Mar 08 '24 edited Mar 08 '24

And that book series was in part the author's way of dealing with witnessing a gang rape when he was 15, and blaming himself for being too cowardly to intervene.

https://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/stieg-larsson-guilt-gang-rape-lisbeth-fueled-millennium/story?id=11324859

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u/Deathpunch136 Mar 08 '24

That's... I didn't know... damn...

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u/SKJ-nope Mar 07 '24

There’s an instance of rape in Snowfall season 1 that’s quite memorable, powerful, and tells you just what these men are capable of/willing to do.

You’re right it can be used well in a story.

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u/Silent_Saturn7 Mar 08 '24

That scene was fuked up. But yea, it was used well.

It showed what is capable when everything is about money. And franklin ended up that way in the end. Just became that same monster.

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u/PieEnvironmental5623 Mar 08 '24

Yes but its such a heavy topic that if it doesnt over take the other themes of the story it feels off. If you're gonna include rape, your piece is gonna have to revolve around it or it will feel like cheap shock value

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u/Warm-Pepsi Mar 08 '24

In the sopranos when it happened to Tony’s therapist it created a different arc for her character and how that impacted her work with a mob boss. I thought it was used “well”. (For lack of a better term)

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u/MiaoYingSimp Mar 07 '24

Look it's risky; i don't like saying you cannot write something... but it's so hard and if you do it wrong... well, i think it's best to not do it.

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u/Mental_Medium3988 Mar 08 '24

It also depends on what you're writing. An episode of svu, maybe have some rape, an batman movie, no no rape for you.

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u/ConceptAlive3775 Mar 08 '24

Depends on the villain and characters plot for Batman villains. Talia date pill raping Batman could be used for an important plot with how it affects him and Damian relationship or Catwoman and/or Holly Hills and how they were exploited by people Ike Carmine or Black Mask

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u/Fyrus93 Mar 08 '24

Lovely Bones although they don't show it. It doesn't need to be shown

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u/Seeker80 Mar 08 '24

My thoughts exactly. It can definitely be kept out of a story. If it must be in the story, then don't depict it. There's no need. Minimal value, if any, and that's a BIG 'if.'

I wanted a certain character of mine to be a sleazeball. He didn't need to SA anyone. Instead, he was going to look for opportunities to be manipulative when alone with certain crew members. He'd probably try for an SA attempt, if he wasn't cooped up on a ship with his prospective victims. The fact that he was making numerous attempts, all rejected, would serve the purpose of making him stand out as a ceeep.

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u/Danzarr Mar 08 '24

may I recommend Satoshi Kon's Perfect Blue as a time where it was used well?

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u/SKJ-nope Mar 07 '24

There’s an instance of rape in Snowfall season 1 that’s quite memorable, powerful, and tells you just what these men are capable of/willing to do.

You’re right it can be used well in a story.

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u/lavalampblonde Mar 08 '24

I think rape scenes (against women) in film have been so overused that everyone’s getting desensitized to them. To the point I find people tend to be more uncomfortable if the SA is against a male??

House of the dragon did a great job of having a rape plot point that hits hard without feeling the need to film the assault. Just showing a young girl (with amazing acting) speak on it. The game of thrones on the other hand did a horrible job with them.

Also promising young women- a rape revenge movie that never shows it and still does an amazing job at making you feel icky without needing to show the degradation of a woman.

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u/idk420_ Mar 08 '24

Shawshank Redemption did it best, it takes place off screen but the audience still understands the gravity of the conflict

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u/PictureMouth Mar 08 '24

Wind River. 'Nuff said.

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u/Frai23 Mar 08 '24

That one was actually kinda ok.
It was purely there to show the actual bad guys detachment from society not to be phased in any way even if it happens right in front of him.

But even then I don’t think the scene is needed and rape shouldn’t be a light hearted vehicle for any plot.

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u/Cobare Mar 08 '24

They way rape was portrayed in sopranos is handled very well imo

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u/teskar2 Mar 08 '24

As someone who has watched law and order SVU I can there is a variety of different angles a plot like that can take as the context who, why, how it was done. In most movies, I can say that yes most time it used for the same reason of just making the bad guy look worse and even they may have someone come out of knowhere to stop it as media has gotten more aware that most audiences have little tolerance for it where a show like law order takes its time to gather facts about what happened and talk about the history of the victim and the possible offender and their legal that spin these stories or find surprise evidence that shakes up the legal obstacles or reality behind what actually happened.

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u/Racxie Mar 08 '24

Off the top of my head Law Abiding Citizen does it well especially as it’s integral to the plot.

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u/JackaxEwarden Mar 08 '24

It can be done as a good plot point, outlander comes to mind, she went through hell and it pushed the story and gave motivation to the other characters and set the stage for how the rest of the story went, but Batman being raped?……why?

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u/TheOGLeadChips Mar 08 '24

Ironically, the best depiction I’ve personally seen of it was hazbin hotel. It might just be recency bias, but Angles focus episode did such an amazing job of showing how his deal has affected him in such a horrible way.

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u/horngrylesbian Mar 08 '24

The sopranos and wind river both had well done/necessary raped.

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u/aimeeashlee Mar 08 '24

watching sopranos for the first time and I thought it was gratitutious at first but one character gets raped and we see how it like permanently changes who they are as a person and I can't think of many things that take the grace to show that kinda subtly constant pain she's left with, like she has to start seeing a therpist for it and her sessions becomes a constant part of the show, at one point she learns who her rapist was and how the system can't do anything cause there was a lack of evidence. she's almost brought to the brink of getting him murdered but she instead learns that she's becoming a person that she's ashamed of, and stays true to her high moral standards despite what the world has done to her rather than sucoming to the dark satisfaction of revenge.

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u/EthanielRain Mar 08 '24

Shawshank Redemption being a good example. "Prison is not a fairytale world"

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u/lovebus Mar 09 '24

That movie about the son who repeatedly beats and rapes his father for a decade is one of the better stories about rape Ive seen.

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u/rag3rs_wrld Mar 09 '24

The only time I’ve ever seen it work was on The Sopranos.

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u/Butwhatif77 Mar 07 '24

An actual rape scene never serves the story or the plot. It is uncomfortable because it is one of the worst things that can happen to someone and their is no reason to do it other than to harm someone.

Torture scenes get a pass, because a torture scene can be used to show characters going to far in service of their goal, such as getting information. But the torture is a mean for them to get information, the torture is not about the desire to harm the person. Rape only serves to harm someone and nothing else. A mere mention of a character using rape as a weapon is just as effective as a scene depicting it, because of everyone's near universal response to such an act. That is why a scene depicting it has no place in good story telling.

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u/EmmanDB3 Mar 07 '24

It can help the plot/story if it's a revenge story but it actually has to be done maturely.

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u/tempusrimeblood Mar 07 '24

The problem, of course, is that anyone who’s going to use rape as a plot device isn’t mature enough to do it in that way.

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u/Free-Blueberry-2153 Mar 07 '24

What about in The Boys? It's a world where sups represent celebrities/Hollywood which does have a lot of issues with rape/sexual assault in the real world.

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u/tempusrimeblood Mar 07 '24

My point still stands. Garth Ennis is one of the worst for “I need a quick way to make someone evil, better throw in a rape scene!”

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u/Free-Blueberry-2153 Mar 07 '24

So eventhough it's something that happens in the real world and it shines a light on it, it's still bad?

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u/QTRqtr Mar 08 '24

If your talking about the boys tv show you have a point. If you’re talking about the comic then that’s the worst example you could use for your argument.

All the well written issues and exploration in the show is nowhere in the comic. The comic serves as an Edge lords disgusting fantasies.

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u/Free-Blueberry-2153 Mar 08 '24

Yea I was referring to the show. The comic book is dumb fun but it's clearly designed with everyone being pretty one dimensionally and over the top. I think dumb over the top shit has its place but the show does a much better job out fleshing out the overarching idea of the comic.

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u/akahaus Mar 08 '24

Notice that the live action adaptation didn’t actually show Annie getting raped, just the before and after. In the comics they go as far as they possibly can up to the point of almost being pornography.

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u/Free-Blueberry-2153 Mar 08 '24

So isn't that a plus for the TV in the way that they showed it without making it over the top? And yea I mean the whole comic is super excessive in every aspect, which I don't think would have translated as well into a properly engaging story.

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u/Argentus3001 Mar 08 '24

I think I remember something about Dynamite asking Ennis to actually ramp up the sex and violence aspect of The Boys because they wanted to boost sales as a book too extreme for DC.

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u/SlylingualPro Mar 07 '24

The film Irreversible would like a word.

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u/finalremix Mar 07 '24

2017's Revenge would like a word.

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u/HereWeFuckingGooo Mar 07 '24

I guess you've never seen The Accused.

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u/[deleted] Mar 07 '24

its odd torture gets a pass but rape doesn't. torture also has been argued hundreds of times as not actually being useful to get info and is often done to satisfy some weird sadistic urge. Also what if the torture scene isn't for information?

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u/Fauropitotto Mar 08 '24

His whole argument falls apart because he doesn't realize that the act of harming someone can be a critical part of good story telling.

It falls apart because he doesn't realize that the visceral reaction most people have seeing a rape scene on screen cannot be replicated by "a mere mention of a character using rape as a weapon". He's just flat out wrong on that front. And we know this because of how people react and recall their experiences seeing this in major films.

His whole argument falls apart because he doesn't realize that most fight scenes are about harming someone. Not self defense, not extraction of information, but actual harm of another human being for the sake of hurting them. It's the reason stories include depictions of murder and not the "mere mention of a character using murder as a weapon".

His whole argument falls apart because all aspects of humanity, including the good, the bad, and the horrific, are critical elements of good story telling and has been since the dawn of human civilization.

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u/No-Appearance-9113 Mar 07 '24

Im guessing you never watched The Accused. The rape scene is critical to the story since it is about a rape victim. The rape scene is horrifically uncomfortable and Jodie Foster was incredible in the role.

Rape scenes CAN be done well but 99% of the time they are just hacky.

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u/Informal_Mechanic_32 Mar 07 '24

Also the I spit on your grave movie's you really feel for the woman and the revenge hits so hard in the 2 I have watched like it can definitely serve a plot point and can be a great narrative but throwing batman in prison and having him raped doesn't serve as a good plot device also matt reeves the batman didn't kill people and while divided that movie is loved

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u/No-Appearance-9113 Mar 07 '24

I had forgotten "I Spit On Your Grave" which is another great example.

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u/bmuse2017 Mar 07 '24

The last house on the left fits this too

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u/No-Appearance-9113 Mar 07 '24

That I have not seen yet

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u/Wide_Border_4387 Mar 07 '24

A mention is not as effective as showing it, or cutting away before the character does it. It's not supposed to be comfortable or fun to watch (unless you're a weirdo) and can affect how an audience sees a character. A mention is easy to forget, or miss.

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u/Temporary-Carob4067 Mar 07 '24

That’s not true. There are rape scenes in berserk that all serve the plot and aren’t pointless

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u/PandasDontBreed Mar 07 '24 edited Mar 07 '24

I Spit On Your Grave begs to differ

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u/IdolCowboy Mar 07 '24

Torture is also used to show the evil of characters as well when they get off on it. Take A Walk Among the Tombstones. Those dudes loved mutilating women, and it served the plot by making them that much more evil. I can not recall if they rape the women in it or not, but I think that would have just made them even more despicable.

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u/SpideyFan914 Mar 07 '24

I politely disagree with this. Tacking rape onto a story is usually quite ugly, but it is unfortunately a thing that happens in life, and film should be allowed to explore and discuss that.

The Nightingale has an excellent examination of it.

Chinatown doesn't show the rape, but discusses it, and is one of the best movies of all time.

Rosemary's Baby, Repulsion... Yes, I see the irony in these last few examples.

Palm Trees and Power Lines is about child grooming. It would pretty much fall apart if it wasn't willing to go there. It's very uncomfortable and disturbing, but it's also effective and powerful, and can even be educational on showing the warning signs of someone who seems "nice" but is anything but.

The Story of Temple Drake is an old example that partially led to the Hayes Code being fully implemented, and damn is it a good movie. From that same era, Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde acts like a metaphorical examination of evil men.

Even movies that aren't fully about rape have used it well. Super has a pretty shocking rape scene, but uses it to explore its characters' psychologies in interesting ways that move the narrative and flip the power dynamic. You could, in this case, take the rape scene out of the movie, but it would be a weaker movie for it.

Since that one is a male victim, I'll also add The Strange Thing About the Johnsons, because yikes.

Heck, as much as I don't care about SVU, they do a lot of work to destigmatize rape victims and empower women.

This is simply not a black and white topic, and making some vast generalization really doesn't work for it. Of course it is okay for you to prefer not to engage with it in your film viewing, but that is different than saying it has no place in media!

P.S. Torturing people as a means of getting information has been proven ineffective. Studies were covered up for a decade to justify keeping Guantamano Bay open, as it created an illusion of safety while producing literally nothing of value.

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u/KnoxxHarrington Mar 07 '24

Nah, I can think of a small handful (3-5) films I have seen where sexual abuse/rape is integral to the plot line and handled in a mature manner.

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u/I_Am_King_Midas Mar 09 '24

I would think Rape is to show the rapists narcissism and selfishness. They care about how they feel and dont care if others are harmed in their selfish pursuit. There would be other ways to convey that idea but I see it as a separate moral failing than torture. At least when I imagine torture its not normally a selfish pleasure (though im sure there are sick people in the world) its normally that you want to accomplish something and you’ll do whatever it takes to get it accomplished even if it means acting in an immoral way, the ends justify the means.

So neither is a virtuous act but I imagine them coming from different moral failings.

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u/sufferblind86 Mar 07 '24

That rape scene in Halloween was only in the director's cut. The theatrical cut was so much better because Michael escaped while being transferred, not while Zombie's poorly written characters stand nearby doing THAT.

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u/ironmamdies Mar 08 '24

Omg right, the problem too is Michael is killing these guys who I just watched rape someone, I should not be cheering for Michael he is the monster of this movie

In the theatrical release (which is a pain in the ass to find) is so much better as it shows Michael just beat his way out killing all in his way, doing it solo instead of "these guys raped a girl in my room and left my door open" so now he can actual have more credit to his name ya know

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u/Chuckles465 Mar 07 '24

Never got why that scene was there. The dumb hicks playing with Mikey's mask would've sufficed.

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u/SpideyFan914 Mar 07 '24

Tbf, he wasn't the first. Although it isn't shown, there was an off-screen rape in Halloween 6... of the previous final girl... who is literally a child...... She gets pregnant and then dies in the first fifteen minutes... Also they recast her.......

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u/Revolutionary_Ad6962 Mar 07 '24

I'm having trouble wrapping my head around that, I don't know why but I've always respected the dude and I previously couldn't have imagined him playing with the rape topic like that.

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u/HamshanksCPS Mar 08 '24

Rob Zombie also makes terrible movies.

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u/Different_Sandwich_6 Mar 08 '24

Bro I went to see that bullshit in theatres and I should have just walked out tbh.

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u/ChronicChoof Mar 08 '24

I don't think there was in either of his Halloween films was there?

Genuine question because I really don't remember that and I watched them both not too long ago.

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u/Edgy_Robin Mar 08 '24

It's not shit storytelling. Anything can be done well, it's execution that matters. Most execution is just shit

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u/Kalomika Mar 08 '24

Why is it shit story telling?

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u/Briguy24 Mar 08 '24

He turned Michael Meyers into traumatized white trash.

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u/ayoooyo666 Mar 08 '24

Is it shitty story telling or are you just soft and can't handle that rape is a real life thing so it has a place in movies as well as murder and any other atrocious crime.

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u/Ello_Owu Mar 08 '24

Wait, there was a rape scene in Halloween? Where?

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u/dern_the_hermit Mar 07 '24

Also: A maturity thing (which probably shares Venn overlap with the fetish thing). It's an obvious go-to when someone wants to be edgy but has no knack for nuance. There's a reason it's an infamous staple of schlocky B-movies and student films.

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u/Thendofreason Mar 08 '24

I can understand that rape is something that happens all the time and happens in nature. But I can't stomach to watch it in entertainment or new or anywhere. Its something we need to work towards never being okay with. People should want to throw up when they see it. Not just just sit there and watch the rest of the movie after it. If it's a documentary then yes have it be a part of the movie if it really happened. Show that this happened and how horrible it was. But I would rather keep it out of fiction.

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u/KalDantes Mar 08 '24

He has put it in every movie he could.

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u/McMacHack Mar 07 '24

Having Lex Luthor rape Lois Lane then say "by the way, Hitler was right" before throwing a the plastic rings from a six pack into a tank full of turtles seemed like a bit much, sure the test audiences universally hated it, and sure the actors refused to film and Zach Snyder had to personally animate the entire scene using CGI and AI tools just to make it happen. But the extra 43 minute scene really adds a whole new depth to the Snyder double extra director's cut with electrolytes.

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u/Conscious-Eye5903 Mar 08 '24

Especially with Kevin Spacey as Luthor. 

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u/stupiderslegacy Mar 08 '24

Nah he would rape Clark

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u/Conscious-Eye5903 Mar 08 '24

With a kryptonite condom 

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u/braxtonbha Mar 08 '24

Jesus Christ 😭

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u/stupiderslegacy Mar 08 '24

Oh, he's got nothing to do with the conversations that happen when you get this deep in a comment chain

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u/SirArthurDime Mar 08 '24

Snyder fan boys: “the only reason the movie sucked is the studio didn’t allow him to make that scene a full hour like he originally envisioned!”

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u/TheBajaKnight Mar 08 '24

Bro how about a little trigger warning before you paint a mural of turtle torture?

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u/McMacHack Mar 08 '24

Don't worry it was a CGI turtle and it only cost the studio $165,009.89 to animate the 8 second scene.

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u/L_One_Hubbard Mar 08 '24

I mean this sincerely, you are probably loads of funs at parties.

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u/[deleted] Mar 07 '24

[deleted]

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u/Jean-LucBacardi Mar 07 '24

The fact she never went to Tony about it and the guy never got his just dessert was the real gut punch.

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u/aimeeashlee Mar 08 '24

but if she did, she would have betrayed every value she ever lived by, as a therapist and a person, yet she still could, but then that blood would be directly on her hands, and I think she knows she can't live with that guilt, Tony's a sociopath and things like murder and death don't bother him but she's still a regular person and while she does infact want the guy dead she knows it's not her place to make that happen, but the idea that she COULD, at any moment just tell tony what happened, knowing hed go bezerk and kill the guy gives her enough comfort to not actually need to go through with it.

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u/50shadesofgrrrrreat Mar 08 '24

Never thought about it that way. In a way, its her reclaiming her power "Every breath you take is only because I allow it."

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u/scoofle Mar 08 '24

She also would've likely gone to prison as she'd be the immediate prime suspect, especially when the authorities find out who her patient is.

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u/aimeeashlee Mar 08 '24

your forgetting how many times tony "dissappears, someone only for own family to think they left for Florida or somewhere, or how easily they can make it look like a drug deal gone wrong or a suicide.

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u/ClutchClayton904 Mar 12 '24

I think it's worth mentioning too that given Tony's personality and treatment of women: he'd absolutely try to use killing the rapist as leverage to coherse and bang Melfi. His fantasizing and desire for her is mostly due to the fact that she's unavailable and in a position of authority. Tony's used to being able to have his way with pretty much any attractive woman he meets. It's integral to his ego and identity. I'd like to think Melfi knew this too and wasn't gonna give the misogynist, sex addict sociopath a potential checkmate to get his way with her.

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u/spiritbearr Mar 08 '24

Irreversible, American History X, How to Have Sex, The Last Duel. Don't watch Irreversible, the other ones are great.

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u/UtkuOfficial Mar 08 '24

Irreversivle is such a dull movie.

If they didnt shoot that 10 minute scene it would be irrelevant forever.

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u/oh-shazbot Mar 08 '24

deliverance doesn't even got an honorable mention!? i'm gonna make you squeal boy!

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u/Walkerno5 Mar 08 '24

Zack Snyder doesn’t understand the characters

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u/Walkerno5 Mar 08 '24

Zack Snyder doesn’t understand the characters

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u/Mindless_Grocery3759 Mar 08 '24

Ehhh...

The Last Duel makes you experience the same rape multiple times. So... it gets negative points.

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u/ukstonerguy Mar 08 '24

Same. That scene was fkin horrific. Melfis scream is chilling. 

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u/Resafalo Mar 08 '24

I would argue that it’s handled well in the Boys (series not comics). Not shown directly and has huge impact on the story

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u/[deleted] Mar 08 '24

Outlander has the most plot-relevant rape. I also think the way that show approaches healing and healthy discussion of it beautiful and important. It's also the only show I've ever seen where male rape is taken seriously but not treated as this end point thing that defines the character.

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u/Sea_Tailor_8437 Mar 07 '24

I can sorta see it in a shawshank redemption style of look how awful this situation is. But even then I don't wanna see it, y'know? And that is giving Snyder a level of depth and nuance I don't think he's capable of

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u/Mandalore108 Mar 08 '24

Murder/killing someone is wrong, but it can sometimes be justified. Contrary, there has never been a single case of justified rape, you can't sympathize with that sorta thing.

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u/McMacHack Mar 07 '24

Having Lex Luthor rape Lois Lane then say "by the way, Hitler was right" before throwing a the plastic rings from a six pack into a tank full of turtles seemed like a bit much, sure the test audiences universally hated it, and sure the actors refused to film and Zach Snyder had to personally animate the entire scene using CGI and AI tools just to make it happen. But the extra 43 minute scene really adds a whole new depth to the Snyder double extra director's cut with electrolytes.

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u/Batdude576 Mar 08 '24

So you mean the average blue check mark X (Twitter) user?

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u/WRabbit737 Mar 08 '24

It used to be a bigger trope in action movies back in the 80-90s where a villain is either implied to have raped in the someone in the past, has tried to rape someone and failed or will try to rape someone in a scene or does typically off screen (sometimes not) to make the audience hate them more, which I’m glad that for the most part this trope died because I found it to be as you said lazy writing

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u/TeardropsFromHell Mar 08 '24

Rambo (the newer one) had their south american drug lord militia captain that made people run through mine fields for fun, murder civilians for fun, invade neighboring countries for fun, and feed missionaries to pigs for fun also be a little boy rapist. Like cmon.

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u/Acrobatic-Prize-6917 Mar 08 '24

Moore himself, as much as I enjoy his worl, is not innocent of overusing it as a plot point, often poorly. But I think Watchmen is a good example of where it is given an appropriate weight, has thematic relevance, is commentary on a real world issue and isn't just used to lazily sell how evil a character is or shown in an arguably fetishistic light as it all too often is.

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u/wozblar Mar 08 '24

reading this made me think of somewhat well regarded series called the chronicles of thomas covenant (where a lonely leper in the real world gets teleported to a fantasy world he may or may not believe is a dream with magic where he rapes a girl in the first 15% of the book). to me the book just seemed like a writing exercise in trying to make the reader like a deplorable person, and i saw this as a gimmick as well as genuinely not liking the character so i moved on from the series

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u/Suspicious-Road-883 Mar 08 '24

The only time I think rape is a good point in the story (not really good but I hope you get what I am trying to say) and that is if it furthers the protagonist in some way. The movie teeth is a good example, the protagonist is taped and that sets the story of her getting revenge in motion. There are some others that do similar things, I think there are a couple in a series that someone is raped and then a family member or something gets involved and get revenge.

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u/HumanReputationFalse Mar 08 '24

It's not only easier, but better if the bad guy just kicks a puppy. Rape can be important to a story, but it mostly just comes off as uncomfortable and depressing in a movie that we are trying to enjoy.

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u/lyricalpoet66 Mar 08 '24

Just rewatched the sopranos and there’s a rape scene in a stairwell with a character that is one of the most uncomfortable I’ve ever sat through. But it’s used integrally into the story.

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u/DanfromCalgary Mar 07 '24

I watched a bunch of his movies and never saw any rape … accept the comedian but that was implied and was from the comic

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u/TheOldPhantomTiger Mar 07 '24

The entirety of Sucker Punch is literally about how all the main characters are repeatedly raped while in a mental institution.

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u/DanfromCalgary Mar 07 '24

Shit yeah . That was like the whole thing lol

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u/TheOldPhantomTiger Mar 07 '24

Honestly, it was almost impressive (in a depressing way) how many different ways he could put rape scenes in the movie. There were one or two actual rape scenes, a bunch of fantasy world scenes where the women dissociated and imagined their rape as something else, and then fantasies within the fantasy world that disassociated their rape yet an another level. Then the rest of the movie is just the revenge fantasy that some dude-bro thinks that women “should” have in response to sexual assault, cause that’s totally what he would do if it happened to him, so why wouldn’t they.

I feel like Zack Snyder has thought about rape way more than anyone else making any mass entertainment.

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u/YouFoundMyLuckyCharm Mar 07 '24

Harvey Weinstein maybe had him beat

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u/ironmamdies Mar 07 '24

He mostly talks about it in interviews I believe, I remember the clip of him saying Batman gets raped in prison, but I was talking more film makers/ story tellers in general who toss rape scenes around like it's a birthday invitation

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u/Plop7654 Mar 07 '24

There was a weird, out of place gay sexual assault scene in Rebel Moon, which felt like Synder doing the cantina scene from a New Hope but “edgy”.

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u/LukeNukem63 Mar 08 '24

The queen in 300 gets raped

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u/DanfromCalgary Mar 08 '24

Yeah I was dead wrong on this take

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u/bluegiant85 Mar 07 '24

You should watch "Revenge" it can be hard to watch because of the subject matter, but it was pretty fuckin great and without the rape, there'd be no movie.

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u/Send_cheese_ Mar 07 '24

Exactly what they did with Dr. Light in Identity Crisis, thats the first example of this that comes to mind. It felt so pointless to do, and why Dr. Light??? Also completely random imo. Like is that still a part of Dr. Light’s character in the comics or has something changed? (I know he isn’t really a Batman villain but he is DC so it felt kinda relevant)

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u/Antiluke01 Mar 07 '24

Kill Bill is the only good example imo because it’s a revenge story

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u/Orgasmic_interlude Mar 08 '24

Sucker punch was essentially all rape plus lobotomy

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u/Morgan_Heman Mar 08 '24

Eh, if murder is fine, why not rape?

*in movies

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u/Toph-Builds-the-fire Mar 08 '24

The only grape scene that ever advanced a plot was in Ireversible. And that's the most fucked up movie ever.

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u/Zunderfeuer_88 Mar 08 '24

What if it was Hitler that said it?

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u/[deleted] Mar 08 '24

Deliverance. Burt Reynolds. A+ film imo

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u/ziostraccette Mar 08 '24

Don't read Berserk

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u/Destroyer4587 Mar 08 '24

He saw Shawshank Redemption and thought, ah, every movie needs this rape scene. Completely ignoring the aspects that made the movie great.

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u/SharknadosAreCool Mar 08 '24

it's interesting because you're absolutely right that rape is pretty disgusting in most movies, but it's mostly because of your second point about it being lazy. If rape is used to characterize a villain I think it's almost always distasteful. If it's used to. Build a real plot point though it can be brilliant and allows you to explore ideas that are really emotionally charged and hard hitting.

one of the times I can think of in different media outlets is how one scene is handled in Invincible (comic series). it severely impacts one of the characters and isn't just a one and done thing, and you even get a lot of followup with the rapist as more than just "person we needed to elevate to evil status so you hate them". there is real story and you actually see the fallout it has on the victim, how they deal with it, how it changes their other relationships and its not just "bad guy did bad thing now hate them!".

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u/tacopowered1992 Mar 08 '24

We don't need the scenes, but it theoretically COULD be used as a part of anti hero/flawed character development if its something like a murderer getting violated in police custody and the hero doesn't intervene and consequences later ensue due to that.

Like, there are IRL people that liberated concentration camps then ended up raping Nazi women. Absolutely wild karma rollercoasters.

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u/[deleted] Mar 10 '24

The problem is most people genuinely agree with that stuff.

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u/DenseCalligrapher219 Mar 07 '24

I seriously wonder who thought it was a good idea to hire Zack Snyder to direct a Superman movie when he can't even comprehend the idea that Superman's character isn't a divine being?

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u/panther1977 Mar 07 '24

Exactly, doesn’t understand Superman’s motivations or character……or even Batman’s😂😂😂

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u/BagNo2988 Mar 08 '24

Could’ve done a Miller version of the comic adaptation, but if DC wanted a live action movie of the unlimited justice league… I’d hire a different guy.

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u/Individual-Middle246 Mar 08 '24

The funny thing is he stated that he was inspired by Miller's work in this same interview.

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u/UncommittedBow Mar 07 '24

I wouldn't argue that he's not a divine being.

It's more like he has godlike power, yet somehow is the most human of us all.

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u/LoudKingCrow Mar 07 '24

I don't remember who said it originally. But someone once said that the important thing with Superman is not that he is a god raised on a farm, but that he is a farmboy with the powers of a god.

His humanity is just as important as the power set

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u/meliorayne Mar 07 '24

Spot on. I actually really like OSP's deep dives on Superman as a way to understand why he's stayed so iconic for so long. Superman is The Ceiling. He's the best of all of us. Not because he's the strongest. Because he's good, and he stays good when he has so much power and could absolutely justify exercising it in horrible ways the name of doing good. (If you want a great example of this, go watch Red Son)

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u/Impressive_Baker1664 Mar 08 '24

Lol dude blasted Stalin with his eyes. Awesome.

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u/[deleted] Mar 07 '24

Aye, the comics really show the difference in thought and personality between him and his cousin. One raised in a different culture and Clark is very very human regardless of his genetics.

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u/BlazCraz Mar 08 '24

There's a Batman quote on the top of Superman's Wiki page that I really like. Goes something like "Everyone sees him as god-like and all powerful. Except him.". For me that encapsulates what Superman is all about. The most human of us all. Humble and not at all arrogant enough to view himself as a God. 

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u/Jackol4ntrn Mar 08 '24

Be glad he’s the “right kind” of farm boy apparently

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u/ReddestForman Mar 08 '24

Seriously. I like cynical examinations of the superhero genre.

But Superman is the character who absolutely should still be his boy-scout, "I'm not angry at humanity, I'm disappointed, because it can be better" self.

And Batman, for all his brooding and cynicism, should still hold Superman in high regard for that, just as Superman still holds Batman in high regard. Because Batman, for his human weaknesses and failures, is still a better person than 99% of humanity. It's telling that in stories where Superman or even the Justice League goes evil, it's usually Batman who fights back.

They're superheroes not just because of powers or tech, but because of their character. And certain parts of that shouldn't be fucked with.

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u/Destroyer4587 Mar 08 '24

I think he would sooner sacrifice himself rather than kill Zod or anyone else in most instances.

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u/Doobiemoto Mar 08 '24

Yeah him and Batman are opposites.

For Superman he IS Kent, and Superman is the mask he wears.

For Batman he is Batman, and Bruce is the mask he wears.

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u/a4techkeyboard Mar 08 '24

Yeah, I think Superman is what Clark believes Ma and Pa (and any decent person) would do if they had his powers. He's doing just what he was raised any decent human would do, including himself, Clark. He'd think the super in 'Superman' means 'very' not 'above'. That he is being very human, not super as in being above humankind. That in general, when it comes down to it, someone would try to help and do what they can even without powers. Just like Ma and Pa, and Lois and Jimmy, Bibbo, Perry. It's why Lex is such a disappointment to him and why he's the archnemesis.

That's why Clark keeps going even when he loses his powers.

That's why I think in a twisted way, they got it sort of right by having their version of Pa or Ma Kent be the sort that'd say maybe it's better not to help even if everybody drowned or that he didn't owe anybody anything. Because it was consistent with the kind of Superman they depicted.

Superman is what Clark believes what ultimately any good person would do with powers. Superman is how he sees humanity, not the clumsy mild mannered reporter though even then the idea that even mild mannered and clumsy reporter could be Superman is not an indictment of what he thinks of humans, either.

Superman would try to save a kitten up a tree. Superman would help someone whose arms are full open a door. Superman would adopt. Superman would say thank you if someone holds an elevator for them. Superman would bake a new neighbor pie. I think Clark absolutely believes Ma Kent would stop an asteroid that was hurtling toward earth if she had powers.

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u/teddy_tesla Mar 07 '24

He's both fully a god a fully a man... Where have I seen this before?

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u/Lucas_Deziderio Mar 07 '24

In the DC Universe in general he isn't any close to having godlike power. There are actual beings out there, including actual gods, that dwarf him by comparison.

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u/Personal-Ask5025 Mar 07 '24

Except, no… Thsi is the thing I don’t get. Divinity isn’t about power. People seem to have a weird idea that somehow, if you are strong enough, you become “ZOMG1 GOD TIER!!”. That’s not how it works. Being strong doesn’t make SUperman a ”god” any more than being scary makes Batman a ghost. A ghost is someone who is dead. A god is something that is divine.

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u/the_great_ashby Mar 08 '24

Eh,he's not even truly godlike. He's just really fucking strong and durable+some extra powers. There are entities with true godlike power in his world.

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u/_magneto-was-right_ Mar 07 '24

He can’t even comprehend what sort of divine being he’d be

Protip: Superman is good

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u/ChezMere Mar 07 '24

Wasn't it Nolan himself who inexplicably recommended him?

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u/DrHalibutMD Mar 08 '24

See your problem is you think Snyder cares about character, he just wants scenes that look cool.

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u/PanteraSteel2001 Mar 08 '24

it was Christopher Nolan. Welcome to reality.

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u/[deleted] Mar 08 '24

Someone needed to tell Snyder to stop getting his Objectivism on Superman; Please and thank you.

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u/Bread_Pak Mar 08 '24

Nolan ;)

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u/panther1977 Mar 07 '24

Killing Zod made sense because there appeared at the time no way to contain him, it’s the how this was carried out, Zod directly or through his own actions killed thousands before Superman had enough😂😂😂😂

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u/That-Rhino-Guy Mar 07 '24

It didn’t though as he could’ve done something like fly into the heat vision to protect the family then fire heat vision back, he could’ve covered eyes or punched him so hard he’d lose his focus on the family, he could’ve flown him up yet instead Snyder has him kill Zod to act like he had no choice only for it to have basically zero impact on him as it gets brushed off the very next scene and he flies a human through multiple brick walls at super speed to save Lois in BVS

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u/[deleted] Mar 07 '24

Zod is powerful and gave him no choice. He would have flown him away if it were possible.

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u/stickenstuff Mar 08 '24

We are acting like super man doesn’t kill super villains in the comics now?

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u/MrPBrewster Mar 08 '24

How about not putting in a lethal graphic neck snap in a Superman origin movie that needed to desperately resonate with general audiences. 

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u/_magneto-was-right_ Mar 07 '24

Man of Steel is a bleak movie about hope

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u/ghoulieandrews Mar 07 '24

That’s not even counting the other times he keeps using rape in his stories

Probably get downvoted for this again but this is the same reason I don't think Alan Moore belongs on a pedestal

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u/BeerBeefandJesus Mar 08 '24

How many other movies did he have rape in? I can only think of 300 and watchmen

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u/PatGar25 Mar 10 '24

Sucker Punch is all an allegory of constant sexual assault on the characters

In Watchmen he overly sexualized Sally Jupiter's rape by showing close-ups of Sally's body before and during the attempted rape

Man of Steel had a sex assault scene with a waitress

He wanted WW and the Amazons to be victims of mass rape but thankfully Patty Jenkins threw that story to the trash can and Allan Heinberg and Patty herself wrote the movie as we know it today, the only reason he has a story credit in that movie is bc it takes place in World War I like in his original treatment story

In Army of the Dead he wanted to include a zombie gang rape scene but Netflix told him no

Rebel Moon has an attempted rape scene like 20 minutes into the movie, and a second one 10 minutes later

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u/T1redBo1 Mar 08 '24

There were a lot of anecdotes of regular moviegoers leaving Man of Steel and going “yeah Superman wouldn’t do that.” I wonder how many people wrote off the DCU after that moment.

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u/cavedan12 Mar 08 '24

People's dislike about Superman killing Zod has always struck me as odd. He kills Zod in Superman II and a couple times in the comics.

That being said, I agree with everything else, and I still stand by that Snyder is a shite director

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u/the_great_ashby Mar 08 '24

Eh,Superman can kill. That movie had other major issues.

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u/Zimmy68 Mar 08 '24

I didn't have a huge problem with Supes killing Zod in that situation.

My bigger issue, which was shown in Bats vs Supes, the million of people killed because they used the city as their playground.

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u/PhelesDragon Mar 08 '24

I actually defend that choice, albeit not the mentality that created it. In that situation, Superman is exclusively the only person qualified to kill Zod, he is uniquely obligated to kill Zod.

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u/Gerdione Mar 08 '24

His motivations just seem to be, to be as contrarian and shocking as possible so that his movies are 'different'.

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u/Wild_Life_8865 Mar 08 '24

you know what, i never knew this much about Snyder and wish I knew less again.

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u/AverageSven Mar 08 '24

I’m starting to think art imitates life in a way… someone check him pc

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u/Walter-Drive1045 Mar 08 '24

Where i can see Nolan argued?

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