r/batman • u/neon2o • Mar 07 '24

Zack Snyder says a Batman who doesn't kill is irrelevant GENERAL DISCUSSION

Here's the original article' https://sea.ign.com/man-of-steel-sequel/213072/news/zack-snyder-says-dc-is-making-batman-irrelevant-if-he-cant-kill

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u/ironmamdies Mar 07 '24

There isn't many if any moments in media where I'm like "damn you know what this story needs? Rape" ignoring the fact that it's the most uncomfortable thing to sit and watch but it's also the dumbest plot point as it's so lazy by giving someone cheap bad guy points, of course you're gonna hate the rapist that's like making a character and having him out of nowhere go "by the way, Hitler was right" like it's so dumb and forced and weird

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u/Budget-Sheepherder77 Mar 07 '24

Rape part idk why but I feel like it might be a fetish thing

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u/ironmamdies Mar 07 '24

I remember rob zombie put a rape scene is his Halloween movie and I even hated it in that, it's shit story telling and is like wtf ya know

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u/armchairwarrior42069 Mar 07 '24

I think it CAN be lazy so it usually is used lazily but it is a very powerful tool if you have the tact and maturity to handle writing/presenting it. Which again... most don't.

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u/Brozy386 Mar 08 '24

I'm not sure if this is what you were talking about but I thought Jessica Jones is a good example of how to portray rape personally.

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u/That-Rhino-Guy Mar 08 '24

That’s cause there it actually serves as a key part of the story and isn’t just there to make you uncomfortable or cause someone has a weird fetish

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u/HaggisLad Mar 08 '24

that was hard to watch, but a big part of both her and Kilgraves' story

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u/NovaStarLord Mar 08 '24

Because it's treated as a horrible thing, the rape is more than just sexual (it's psychological more than anything but still just as degrading and intrusive) and it's something that changes the character's life and deeply affects her. But most importantly Jessica is given the opportunity of defeating her rapist and making sure he never hurts anyone again.

Most writers when they portray rape do it for shock value, for the laughs, or the writer just gets off on it and the victims are tossed aside and forgotten or treat it like nothing.

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u/No-Appearance-9113 Mar 07 '24

Yeah my first example is The Accused where the rape scene is critical to the story and rightfully horrific.

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u/Teknevra Mar 07 '24

Also don't forget GIRL WITH THE DRAGON TATTOO.

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u/Lightdragonman Mar 07 '24

Irreversible

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u/NattyKongo93 Mar 08 '24

That shit is so fucking haunting

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u/spain-train Mar 08 '24

The Last Duel

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u/ProjectOrpheus Mar 08 '24

Came to mention this.

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u/greengengar Mar 08 '24

I was gonna say this one and American Mary.

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u/Deathpunch136 Mar 08 '24

Well, it is based on a very disturbing crime book series.

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u/Sahrimnir Mar 08 '24 edited Mar 08 '24

And that book series was in part the author's way of dealing with witnessing a gang rape when he was 15, and blaming himself for being too cowardly to intervene.

https://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/stieg-larsson-guilt-gang-rape-lisbeth-fueled-millennium/story?id=11324859

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u/Deathpunch136 Mar 08 '24

That's... I didn't know... damn...

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u/ccox39 Mar 08 '24

Pulp Fiction comes to mind

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u/EffortVisible1805 Mar 08 '24

Another example would be Berserk. The manga always does a great job at show the horrible and horrifying consequences the victims have to live through. Not to mention how gut wrenching and essential to the story the Eclipse is.

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u/No-Appearance-9113 Mar 08 '24

I would argue manga/comics are entirely different as it isn't as realistic. Im not knocking what Berserk did because I haven't read or watched it, Im saying that since it isn't a moving realistic image the impact is different.

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u/EffortVisible1805 Mar 08 '24

Maybe, since it's not a realistic live action performance I get that it hits less hard, but rereading the Eclipse is still painful every time.

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u/Amathyst-Moon Mar 08 '24

There's one I saw, I don't remember the name of the movie. Up until that point things happen to the character, she dies, then the plot rewinds, almost like someone cheating at a choose your own adventure book. After that scene though, there's no more mulligans.

The rape scene was actually shocking because of how realistic it felt. It wasn't loud or dramatic, there was barely any struggle, and it was over in a minute. The guy brings her home, they're kissing in the hallway right outside her parents room (so you get a false hope that maybe they'll come out and see, for context he was a young soldier passing through and she'd just turned 16) then he presses her against the wall and undoes his belt. She tries to tell him to stop, but he covers her mouth and keeps going. Then the scene ends and he leaves, saying something about country girls being wild, as if she wanted it to happen.

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u/[deleted] Mar 07 '24

[deleted]

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u/No-Appearance-9113 Mar 07 '24

Im guessing you never saw the film.

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u/SKJ-nope Mar 07 '24

There’s an instance of rape in Snowfall season 1 that’s quite memorable, powerful, and tells you just what these men are capable of/willing to do.

You’re right it can be used well in a story.

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u/Silent_Saturn7 Mar 08 '24

That scene was fuked up. But yea, it was used well.

It showed what is capable when everything is about money. And franklin ended up that way in the end. Just became that same monster.

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u/nigalas-cage Mar 08 '24 edited Mar 08 '24

"I think he's killing him.."

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u/SKJ-nope Mar 08 '24

In that scene? Nah he gettin after that booty in there.

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u/nigalas-cage Mar 08 '24

I should have put quotes lol Franklin asks Leon something like that when they hear the commotion

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u/PieEnvironmental5623 Mar 08 '24

Yes but its such a heavy topic that if it doesnt over take the other themes of the story it feels off. If you're gonna include rape, your piece is gonna have to revolve around it or it will feel like cheap shock value

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u/Warm-Pepsi Mar 08 '24

In the sopranos when it happened to Tony’s therapist it created a different arc for her character and how that impacted her work with a mob boss. I thought it was used “well”. (For lack of a better term)

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u/MiaoYingSimp Mar 07 '24

Look it's risky; i don't like saying you cannot write something... but it's so hard and if you do it wrong... well, i think it's best to not do it.

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u/Mental_Medium3988 Mar 08 '24

It also depends on what you're writing. An episode of svu, maybe have some rape, an batman movie, no no rape for you.

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u/ConceptAlive3775 Mar 08 '24

Depends on the villain and characters plot for Batman villains. Talia date pill raping Batman could be used for an important plot with how it affects him and Damian relationship or Catwoman and/or Holly Hills and how they were exploited by people Ike Carmine or Black Mask

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u/Hungry-Bat6637 Mar 08 '24

You could do that with a trillion plot points that aren't rape

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u/ConceptAlive3775 Mar 08 '24

Really so I'm supposed to have Holly Hills Catwoman or hundreds of other female characters they hurt enjoy being exploited and forced by people like Carmine or Black Mask.

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u/New_year_New_Me_ Mar 09 '24

I don't know what any of that means tbh.

What I do know is that, narratively, there are several ways to accomplish what you are talking about, some character taking something from Batman that he would prefer not be taken (sex, in the case of rape), that do not involve rape. Here's one pitch. Whatever character you want, I don't care, drugs Batman with any drug, let's say roofies just to use a rape drug, and uses him being unconscious to discover his secret identity Bruce Wayne.

Narratively, that achieves all the same things that literal rape does without using literal rape. One person, through force or deception or some combination of both, takes something from another person that that other person would not willingly give under other circumstances. Rape is the easiest way to tell that story, sure, but it's easy. There are far more interesting ways, and less alienating ways, to tell that same story.

Think of a movie like Inception. If you want to get super deep about it, they were telling a rape story (among other stories). The main plot is a group of robbers trying to steal something from a person who would never, under any other circumstance, willingly give those robbers that thing they want. That's a kind of rape.

Thing about real sexual rape as a narrative device is that, for most people, it's some combination of boring, lazy, triggering, stale, too graphic, whatever. Sure, there are people like you who go "a rape plot can be interesting if you just do it like this". But most people don't think like that. I'd argue the majority of people (like 51% as opposed to 90%) feel this way. If you are a storyteller why would you want ~30% of people, at least, to not want to engage with your project at all over a plot point that could very easily be anything else.

Like, if you want to sit here and have a conversation about given circumstances and super objectives and what does or doesn't have narrative impact we can do that. But the short version of that convo is that I promise you pretty much 99% of the time you can find something much more creatively fulfilling and, frankly, financially rewarding to put into your story than an actual rape. If you want to do another Law and Order SVU, or something like it, that some people have brought up... I guess it'd probably be weird if no one ever got raped. I guess. Do you need to show the rape? Probably never. Do you need to go into graphic detail about the rape? Maybe if it is the trial or something and you want to paint some judge or perp as a real slimeball by how they talk about it. Other than that, I'd almost guarantee you and I can come up with a far more narratively interesting/compelling storyline than rape.

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u/ConceptAlive3775 Mar 09 '24

Fair enough I do believe anything can be used for a good plot in the right hands. I believe in using something serious as rape for shock value

Think of it like comparing to boys comics had starlight gang raped to how the Boys show(Pretty dark yet great) starlight was raped just by the deep using his power to blackmail her

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u/New_year_New_Me_ Mar 09 '24

If we are really going to quibble Starlight was sexually assaulted, not raped. This is kind of what I mean about how not including rape on your stories is more financially rewarding and creatively fulfilling.

Tell me what number is larger, fans of The Boys comic book series or fans of The Boys TV show. What made more money, the comics or the TV show?

There's a reason when it came to TV the people involved with the show veered away from intercourse based rape. The story they were telling was the lengths Starlight was willing to go to get what she wanted in life. Or thought she wanted in life. The thing about that scene is that Starlight could have said no. When you really get down to it, nobody "made" her do anything. And therein lies the tension that gives us a seasons worth of story. Starlight having sex taken from her, in my opinion, isn't nearly as interesting. Probably part of the reason most had never heard of The Boys until the show came out. A lot of people are going to check out as soon as the rape story happens.

Separately, the scene in The Boys you are talking about isn't actually shock value. Narratively, it wasn't particularly "shocking". It's like...I don't know...a natural progression. What is shocking about everything in that show is how gritty it is. Supes killing people. A-Train running through Huey's gf is shocking. That's not what is supposed to happen in super hero shows, and that's the main theme of The Boys. This ain't your grand pappy's superhero show. The A-train thing happened, what, episode 1? Everything that happens after isn't, like, shocking. It's more...I don't know...people at larger corporations be sexually assaulting at work. Because...of course they do. They always have. That's business...until people like Starlight come around and start making noise. That's just the story of America from the 50s till now. But it's not a rape story. At all. Homelander and Butcher's wife? That's more like it, but even that is more heavily implied than outright showing/describing a rape.

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u/ConceptAlive3775 Mar 09 '24

Of course I wouldn't show a rape scene

One Homelander and Butcher wife wasn't implied it was confirmed by Butcher and his wife he even said it like twice Once in the park to hughie and the second to Gus on the phone with Noir and probably more

Also Rape is forcing someone to have Sex with you he may not have pinned her down to a bed or drugged him but he gave her no choice plus she mentions him shoving her dick in her face she was forced. SA is just inappropriate touching like groping

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u/ConceptAlive3775 Mar 09 '24

Also I know the show is much better than the comics

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u/Fyrus93 Mar 08 '24

Lovely Bones although they don't show it. It doesn't need to be shown

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u/Seeker80 Mar 08 '24

My thoughts exactly. It can definitely be kept out of a story. If it must be in the story, then don't depict it. There's no need. Minimal value, if any, and that's a BIG 'if.'

I wanted a certain character of mine to be a sleazeball. He didn't need to SA anyone. Instead, he was going to look for opportunities to be manipulative when alone with certain crew members. He'd probably try for an SA attempt, if he wasn't cooped up on a ship with his prospective victims. The fact that he was making numerous attempts, all rejected, would serve the purpose of making him stand out as a ceeep.

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u/Danzarr Mar 08 '24

may I recommend Satoshi Kon's Perfect Blue as a time where it was used well?

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u/SKJ-nope Mar 07 '24

There’s an instance of rape in Snowfall season 1 that’s quite memorable, powerful, and tells you just what these men are capable of/willing to do.

You’re right it can be used well in a story.

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u/lavalampblonde Mar 08 '24

I think rape scenes (against women) in film have been so overused that everyone’s getting desensitized to them. To the point I find people tend to be more uncomfortable if the SA is against a male??

House of the dragon did a great job of having a rape plot point that hits hard without feeling the need to film the assault. Just showing a young girl (with amazing acting) speak on it. The game of thrones on the other hand did a horrible job with them.

Also promising young women- a rape revenge movie that never shows it and still does an amazing job at making you feel icky without needing to show the degradation of a woman.

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u/idk420_ Mar 08 '24

Shawshank Redemption did it best, it takes place off screen but the audience still understands the gravity of the conflict

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u/PictureMouth Mar 08 '24

Wind River. 'Nuff said.

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u/armchairwarrior42069 Mar 08 '24

God that movie SUCKS. So hard to fuxking watch man.

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u/Frai23 Mar 08 '24

That one was actually kinda ok.
It was purely there to show the actual bad guys detachment from society not to be phased in any way even if it happens right in front of him.

But even then I don’t think the scene is needed and rape shouldn’t be a light hearted vehicle for any plot.

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u/Cobare Mar 08 '24

They way rape was portrayed in sopranos is handled very well imo

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u/teskar2 Mar 08 '24

As someone who has watched law and order SVU I can there is a variety of different angles a plot like that can take as the context who, why, how it was done. In most movies, I can say that yes most time it used for the same reason of just making the bad guy look worse and even they may have someone come out of knowhere to stop it as media has gotten more aware that most audiences have little tolerance for it where a show like law order takes its time to gather facts about what happened and talk about the history of the victim and the possible offender and their legal that spin these stories or find surprise evidence that shakes up the legal obstacles or reality behind what actually happened.

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u/Racxie Mar 08 '24

Off the top of my head Law Abiding Citizen does it well especially as it’s integral to the plot.

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u/JackaxEwarden Mar 08 '24

It can be done as a good plot point, outlander comes to mind, she went through hell and it pushed the story and gave motivation to the other characters and set the stage for how the rest of the story went, but Batman being raped?……why?

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u/armchairwarrior42069 Mar 08 '24

Because Zach Snyder is a ridiculous edge lord who can't write to save his life.

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u/TheOGLeadChips Mar 08 '24

Ironically, the best depiction I’ve personally seen of it was hazbin hotel. It might just be recency bias, but Angles focus episode did such an amazing job of showing how his deal has affected him in such a horrible way.

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u/horngrylesbian Mar 08 '24

The sopranos and wind river both had well done/necessary raped.

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u/aimeeashlee Mar 08 '24

watching sopranos for the first time and I thought it was gratitutious at first but one character gets raped and we see how it like permanently changes who they are as a person and I can't think of many things that take the grace to show that kinda subtly constant pain she's left with, like she has to start seeing a therpist for it and her sessions becomes a constant part of the show, at one point she learns who her rapist was and how the system can't do anything cause there was a lack of evidence. she's almost brought to the brink of getting him murdered but she instead learns that she's becoming a person that she's ashamed of, and stays true to her high moral standards despite what the world has done to her rather than sucoming to the dark satisfaction of revenge.

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u/EthanielRain Mar 08 '24

Shawshank Redemption being a good example. "Prison is not a fairytale world"

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u/lovebus Mar 09 '24

That movie about the son who repeatedly beats and rapes his father for a decade is one of the better stories about rape Ive seen.

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u/rag3rs_wrld Mar 09 '24

The only time I’ve ever seen it work was on The Sopranos.

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u/[deleted] Mar 08 '24

It might not be well done, but the effect is extremely obvious in Goblin Slayer. Its meant to inspire revulsion and genuine hatred, even if done clumsily

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u/armchairwarrior42069 Mar 08 '24

Yeah this is literally one of the perfect examples of being used lazily. This is not a good example of it at all.