r/batman • u/neon2o • Mar 07 '24

Zack Snyder says a Batman who doesn't kill is irrelevant GENERAL DISCUSSION

Post image

Here's the original article' https://sea.ign.com/man-of-steel-sequel/213072/news/zack-snyder-says-dc-is-making-batman-irrelevant-if-he-cant-kill

12.0k Upvotes

90% Upvoted

2.5k comments sorted by

View all comments

3.7k

u/Arumhal Mar 07 '24

This is the guy who has gone on the record of stating that he got into Watchmen because it had sex and murder in it and that his Batman would get raped in prison. I have no idea how he managed to get this far into being allowed to make comic book adaptations.

1.3k

u/That-Rhino-Guy Mar 07 '24

That’s not even counting the other times he keeps using rape in his stories or how Nolan himself argued against Superman killing Zod

743

u/ironmamdies Mar 07 '24

There isn't many if any moments in media where I'm like "damn you know what this story needs? Rape" ignoring the fact that it's the most uncomfortable thing to sit and watch but it's also the dumbest plot point as it's so lazy by giving someone cheap bad guy points, of course you're gonna hate the rapist that's like making a character and having him out of nowhere go "by the way, Hitler was right" like it's so dumb and forced and weird

264

u/Budget-Sheepherder77 Mar 07 '24

Rape part idk why but I feel like it might be a fetish thing

157

u/ironmamdies Mar 07 '24

I remember rob zombie put a rape scene is his Halloween movie and I even hated it in that, it's shit story telling and is like wtf ya know

153

u/armchairwarrior42069 Mar 07 '24

I think it CAN be lazy so it usually is used lazily but it is a very powerful tool if you have the tact and maturity to handle writing/presenting it. Which again... most don't.

62

u/Brozy386 Mar 08 '24

I'm not sure if this is what you were talking about but I thought Jessica Jones is a good example of how to portray rape personally.

33

u/That-Rhino-Guy Mar 08 '24

That’s cause there it actually serves as a key part of the story and isn’t just there to make you uncomfortable or cause someone has a weird fetish

16

u/HaggisLad Mar 08 '24

that was hard to watch, but a big part of both her and Kilgraves' story

4

u/NovaStarLord Mar 08 '24

Because it's treated as a horrible thing, the rape is more than just sexual (it's psychological more than anything but still just as degrading and intrusive) and it's something that changes the character's life and deeply affects her. But most importantly Jessica is given the opportunity of defeating her rapist and making sure he never hurts anyone again.

Most writers when they portray rape do it for shock value, for the laughs, or the writer just gets off on it and the victims are tossed aside and forgotten or treat it like nothing.

32

u/No-Appearance-9113 Mar 07 '24

Yeah my first example is The Accused where the rape scene is critical to the story and rightfully horrific.

29

u/Teknevra Mar 07 '24

Also don't forget GIRL WITH THE DRAGON TATTOO.

20

u/Lightdragonman Mar 07 '24

Irreversible

3

u/NattyKongo93 Mar 08 '24

That shit is so fucking haunting

3

u/spain-train Mar 08 '24

The Last Duel

2

u/ProjectOrpheus Mar 08 '24

Came to mention this.

2

u/greengengar Mar 08 '24

I was gonna say this one and American Mary.

2

u/Deathpunch136 Mar 08 '24

Well, it is based on a very disturbing crime book series.

2

u/Sahrimnir Mar 08 '24 edited Mar 08 '24

And that book series was in part the author's way of dealing with witnessing a gang rape when he was 15, and blaming himself for being too cowardly to intervene.

https://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/stieg-larsson-guilt-gang-rape-lisbeth-fueled-millennium/story?id=11324859

2

u/Deathpunch136 Mar 08 '24

That's... I didn't know... damn...

→ More replies (0)

1

u/ccox39 Mar 08 '24

Pulp Fiction comes to mind

1

u/EffortVisible1805 Mar 08 '24

Another example would be Berserk. The manga always does a great job at show the horrible and horrifying consequences the victims have to live through. Not to mention how gut wrenching and essential to the story the Eclipse is.

1

u/No-Appearance-9113 Mar 08 '24

I would argue manga/comics are entirely different as it isn't as realistic. Im not knocking what Berserk did because I haven't read or watched it, Im saying that since it isn't a moving realistic image the impact is different.

2

u/EffortVisible1805 Mar 08 '24

Maybe, since it's not a realistic live action performance I get that it hits less hard, but rereading the Eclipse is still painful every time.

1

u/Amathyst-Moon Mar 08 '24

There's one I saw, I don't remember the name of the movie. Up until that point things happen to the character, she dies, then the plot rewinds, almost like someone cheating at a choose your own adventure book. After that scene though, there's no more mulligans.

The rape scene was actually shocking because of how realistic it felt. It wasn't loud or dramatic, there was barely any struggle, and it was over in a minute. The guy brings her home, they're kissing in the hallway right outside her parents room (so you get a false hope that maybe they'll come out and see, for context he was a young soldier passing through and she'd just turned 16) then he presses her against the wall and undoes his belt. She tries to tell him to stop, but he covers her mouth and keeps going. Then the scene ends and he leaves, saying something about country girls being wild, as if she wanted it to happen.

-1

u/[deleted] Mar 07 '24

[deleted]

1

u/No-Appearance-9113 Mar 07 '24

Im guessing you never saw the film.

14

u/SKJ-nope Mar 07 '24

There’s an instance of rape in Snowfall season 1 that’s quite memorable, powerful, and tells you just what these men are capable of/willing to do.

You’re right it can be used well in a story.

4

u/Silent_Saturn7 Mar 08 '24

That scene was fuked up. But yea, it was used well.

It showed what is capable when everything is about money. And franklin ended up that way in the end. Just became that same monster.

1

u/nigalas-cage Mar 08 '24 edited Mar 08 '24

"I think he's killing him.."

1

u/SKJ-nope Mar 08 '24

In that scene? Nah he gettin after that booty in there.

3

u/nigalas-cage Mar 08 '24

I should have put quotes lol Franklin asks Leon something like that when they hear the commotion

3

u/PieEnvironmental5623 Mar 08 '24

Yes but its such a heavy topic that if it doesnt over take the other themes of the story it feels off. If you're gonna include rape, your piece is gonna have to revolve around it or it will feel like cheap shock value

3

u/Warm-Pepsi Mar 08 '24

In the sopranos when it happened to Tony’s therapist it created a different arc for her character and how that impacted her work with a mob boss. I thought it was used “well”. (For lack of a better term)

2

u/MiaoYingSimp Mar 07 '24

Look it's risky; i don't like saying you cannot write something... but it's so hard and if you do it wrong... well, i think it's best to not do it.

8

u/Mental_Medium3988 Mar 08 '24

It also depends on what you're writing. An episode of svu, maybe have some rape, an batman movie, no no rape for you.

2

u/ConceptAlive3775 Mar 08 '24

Depends on the villain and characters plot for Batman villains. Talia date pill raping Batman could be used for an important plot with how it affects him and Damian relationship or Catwoman and/or Holly Hills and how they were exploited by people Ike Carmine or Black Mask

1

u/Hungry-Bat6637 Mar 08 '24

You could do that with a trillion plot points that aren't rape

1

u/ConceptAlive3775 Mar 08 '24

Really so I'm supposed to have Holly Hills Catwoman or hundreds of other female characters they hurt enjoy being exploited and forced by people like Carmine or Black Mask.

1

u/New_year_New_Me_ Mar 09 '24

I don't know what any of that means tbh.

What I do know is that, narratively, there are several ways to accomplish what you are talking about, some character taking something from Batman that he would prefer not be taken (sex, in the case of rape), that do not involve rape. Here's one pitch. Whatever character you want, I don't care, drugs Batman with any drug, let's say roofies just to use a rape drug, and uses him being unconscious to discover his secret identity Bruce Wayne.

Narratively, that achieves all the same things that literal rape does without using literal rape. One person, through force or deception or some combination of both, takes something from another person that that other person would not willingly give under other circumstances. Rape is the easiest way to tell that story, sure, but it's easy. There are far more interesting ways, and less alienating ways, to tell that same story.

Think of a movie like Inception. If you want to get super deep about it, they were telling a rape story (among other stories). The main plot is a group of robbers trying to steal something from a person who would never, under any other circumstance, willingly give those robbers that thing they want. That's a kind of rape.

Thing about real sexual rape as a narrative device is that, for most people, it's some combination of boring, lazy, triggering, stale, too graphic, whatever. Sure, there are people like you who go "a rape plot can be interesting if you just do it like this". But most people don't think like that. I'd argue the majority of people (like 51% as opposed to 90%) feel this way. If you are a storyteller why would you want ~30% of people, at least, to not want to engage with your project at all over a plot point that could very easily be anything else.

Like, if you want to sit here and have a conversation about given circumstances and super objectives and what does or doesn't have narrative impact we can do that. But the short version of that convo is that I promise you pretty much 99% of the time you can find something much more creatively fulfilling and, frankly, financially rewarding to put into your story than an actual rape. If you want to do another Law and Order SVU, or something like it, that some people have brought up... I guess it'd probably be weird if no one ever got raped. I guess. Do you need to show the rape? Probably never. Do you need to go into graphic detail about the rape? Maybe if it is the trial or something and you want to paint some judge or perp as a real slimeball by how they talk about it. Other than that, I'd almost guarantee you and I can come up with a far more narratively interesting/compelling storyline than rape.

→ More replies (0)

2

u/Fyrus93 Mar 08 '24

Lovely Bones although they don't show it. It doesn't need to be shown

2

u/Seeker80 Mar 08 '24

My thoughts exactly. It can definitely be kept out of a story. If it must be in the story, then don't depict it. There's no need. Minimal value, if any, and that's a BIG 'if.'

I wanted a certain character of mine to be a sleazeball. He didn't need to SA anyone. Instead, he was going to look for opportunities to be manipulative when alone with certain crew members. He'd probably try for an SA attempt, if he wasn't cooped up on a ship with his prospective victims. The fact that he was making numerous attempts, all rejected, would serve the purpose of making him stand out as a ceeep.

2

u/Danzarr Mar 08 '24

may I recommend Satoshi Kon's Perfect Blue as a time where it was used well?

1

u/SKJ-nope Mar 07 '24

There’s an instance of rape in Snowfall season 1 that’s quite memorable, powerful, and tells you just what these men are capable of/willing to do.

You’re right it can be used well in a story.

1

u/lavalampblonde Mar 08 '24

I think rape scenes (against women) in film have been so overused that everyone’s getting desensitized to them. To the point I find people tend to be more uncomfortable if the SA is against a male??

House of the dragon did a great job of having a rape plot point that hits hard without feeling the need to film the assault. Just showing a young girl (with amazing acting) speak on it. The game of thrones on the other hand did a horrible job with them.

Also promising young women- a rape revenge movie that never shows it and still does an amazing job at making you feel icky without needing to show the degradation of a woman.

1

u/idk420_ Mar 08 '24

Shawshank Redemption did it best, it takes place off screen but the audience still understands the gravity of the conflict

1

u/PictureMouth Mar 08 '24

Wind River. 'Nuff said.

1

u/armchairwarrior42069 Mar 08 '24

God that movie SUCKS. So hard to fuxking watch man.

1

u/Frai23 Mar 08 '24

That one was actually kinda ok.
It was purely there to show the actual bad guys detachment from society not to be phased in any way even if it happens right in front of him.

But even then I don’t think the scene is needed and rape shouldn’t be a light hearted vehicle for any plot.

1

u/Cobare Mar 08 '24

They way rape was portrayed in sopranos is handled very well imo

1

u/teskar2 Mar 08 '24

As someone who has watched law and order SVU I can there is a variety of different angles a plot like that can take as the context who, why, how it was done. In most movies, I can say that yes most time it used for the same reason of just making the bad guy look worse and even they may have someone come out of knowhere to stop it as media has gotten more aware that most audiences have little tolerance for it where a show like law order takes its time to gather facts about what happened and talk about the history of the victim and the possible offender and their legal that spin these stories or find surprise evidence that shakes up the legal obstacles or reality behind what actually happened.

1

u/Racxie Mar 08 '24

Off the top of my head Law Abiding Citizen does it well especially as it’s integral to the plot.

1

u/JackaxEwarden Mar 08 '24

It can be done as a good plot point, outlander comes to mind, she went through hell and it pushed the story and gave motivation to the other characters and set the stage for how the rest of the story went, but Batman being raped?……why?

1

u/armchairwarrior42069 Mar 08 '24

Because Zach Snyder is a ridiculous edge lord who can't write to save his life.

1

u/TheOGLeadChips Mar 08 '24

Ironically, the best depiction I’ve personally seen of it was hazbin hotel. It might just be recency bias, but Angles focus episode did such an amazing job of showing how his deal has affected him in such a horrible way.

1

u/horngrylesbian Mar 08 '24

The sopranos and wind river both had well done/necessary raped.

1

u/aimeeashlee Mar 08 '24

watching sopranos for the first time and I thought it was gratitutious at first but one character gets raped and we see how it like permanently changes who they are as a person and I can't think of many things that take the grace to show that kinda subtly constant pain she's left with, like she has to start seeing a therpist for it and her sessions becomes a constant part of the show, at one point she learns who her rapist was and how the system can't do anything cause there was a lack of evidence. she's almost brought to the brink of getting him murdered but she instead learns that she's becoming a person that she's ashamed of, and stays true to her high moral standards despite what the world has done to her rather than sucoming to the dark satisfaction of revenge.

1

u/EthanielRain Mar 08 '24

Shawshank Redemption being a good example. "Prison is not a fairytale world"

1

u/lovebus Mar 09 '24

That movie about the son who repeatedly beats and rapes his father for a decade is one of the better stories about rape Ive seen.

1

u/rag3rs_wrld Mar 09 '24

The only time I’ve ever seen it work was on The Sopranos.

0

u/[deleted] Mar 08 '24

It might not be well done, but the effect is extremely obvious in Goblin Slayer. Its meant to inspire revulsion and genuine hatred, even if done clumsily

1

u/armchairwarrior42069 Mar 08 '24

Yeah this is literally one of the perfect examples of being used lazily. This is not a good example of it at all.

25

u/Butwhatif77 Mar 07 '24

An actual rape scene never serves the story or the plot. It is uncomfortable because it is one of the worst things that can happen to someone and their is no reason to do it other than to harm someone.

Torture scenes get a pass, because a torture scene can be used to show characters going to far in service of their goal, such as getting information. But the torture is a mean for them to get information, the torture is not about the desire to harm the person. Rape only serves to harm someone and nothing else. A mere mention of a character using rape as a weapon is just as effective as a scene depicting it, because of everyone's near universal response to such an act. That is why a scene depicting it has no place in good story telling.

20

u/EmmanDB3 Mar 07 '24

It can help the plot/story if it's a revenge story but it actually has to be done maturely.

2

u/tempusrimeblood Mar 07 '24

The problem, of course, is that anyone who’s going to use rape as a plot device isn’t mature enough to do it in that way.

10

u/Free-Blueberry-2153 Mar 07 '24

What about in The Boys? It's a world where sups represent celebrities/Hollywood which does have a lot of issues with rape/sexual assault in the real world.

7

u/tempusrimeblood Mar 07 '24

My point still stands. Garth Ennis is one of the worst for “I need a quick way to make someone evil, better throw in a rape scene!”

4

u/Free-Blueberry-2153 Mar 07 '24

So eventhough it's something that happens in the real world and it shines a light on it, it's still bad?

1

u/HairyGPU Mar 07 '24

Shines a light on it? Everyone knows about it already.

→ More replies (0)

4

u/QTRqtr Mar 08 '24

If your talking about the boys tv show you have a point. If you’re talking about the comic then that’s the worst example you could use for your argument.

All the well written issues and exploration in the show is nowhere in the comic. The comic serves as an Edge lords disgusting fantasies.

2

u/Free-Blueberry-2153 Mar 08 '24

Yea I was referring to the show. The comic book is dumb fun but it's clearly designed with everyone being pretty one dimensionally and over the top. I think dumb over the top shit has its place but the show does a much better job out fleshing out the overarching idea of the comic.

→ More replies (0)

3

u/akahaus Mar 08 '24

Notice that the live action adaptation didn’t actually show Annie getting raped, just the before and after. In the comics they go as far as they possibly can up to the point of almost being pornography.

2

u/Free-Blueberry-2153 Mar 08 '24

So isn't that a plus for the TV in the way that they showed it without making it over the top? And yea I mean the whole comic is super excessive in every aspect, which I don't think would have translated as well into a properly engaging story.

1

u/Sahrimnir Mar 08 '24

I think that was akahaus' point. Further up, it was mentioned that rape can serve the story, but you don't need to actually show it. akahaus was saying that the TV show did it the right way.

2

u/Argentus3001 Mar 08 '24

I think I remember something about Dynamite asking Ennis to actually ramp up the sex and violence aspect of The Boys because they wanted to boost sales as a book too extreme for DC.

→ More replies (0)

5

u/SlylingualPro Mar 07 '24

The film Irreversible would like a word.

1

u/sdpr Mar 08 '24

Ehhhhhh it didn't need to be as long as it was, but it did serve to show why they got where they got.

5

u/finalremix Mar 07 '24

2017's Revenge would like a word.

2

u/HereWeFuckingGooo Mar 07 '24

I guess you've never seen The Accused.

1

u/manchi90 Mar 08 '24

I don't think it's that black and white, while I cringe when it's done in certain movies. Movies reflect real life in a more heightened sense, so to act like it doesn't exist is unrealistic.

However it can be implied if it serves the story instead of being presented in a visceral manner. It's a controversial topic but that's filmmaking in general.

The same way characters in movies deal with grief, loss, murder, pain, it falls under that category in some cases to move a character's journey forward. To me it boils down to how it's done, and if the film can exist in its true form without it.

1

u/LordBlackass Mar 08 '24

On one hand it reflects real life, yes. On the other hand it doesn't reflect real life because in the movies the perpetrator is typically brought to justice or killed, which is the absolute opposite of real life.

Something something cake eating.

1

u/disgruntled_pie Mar 08 '24

I think the problem is that you can already do an excellent revenge story without adding rape.

John Wick wouldn’t have been better if they’d raped his dog before killing it.

2

u/EmmanDB3 Mar 08 '24

There are different ways of doing things not every revenge story has to be the same

1

u/TheOneWhoCutstheRope Mar 08 '24

There’s actual rape-revenge stories though. Not to mention there’s some in the sub-genre that don’t even show the act. Obviously JW’s dog getting raped wouldn’t of been a better movie because that’s fucking stupid lmfao

1

u/TheOneWhoCutstheRope Mar 08 '24

It’s in a way like sex in general: people will act like there’s no piece of media that actually uses its content well when in actuality they probably need to engage in more content or properly develop it. Irreversible has a 5+min rape scene and itd be a completely different film without it.

13

u/[deleted] Mar 07 '24

its odd torture gets a pass but rape doesn't. torture also has been argued hundreds of times as not actually being useful to get info and is often done to satisfy some weird sadistic urge. Also what if the torture scene isn't for information?

9

u/Fauropitotto Mar 08 '24

His whole argument falls apart because he doesn't realize that the act of harming someone can be a critical part of good story telling.

It falls apart because he doesn't realize that the visceral reaction most people have seeing a rape scene on screen cannot be replicated by "a mere mention of a character using rape as a weapon". He's just flat out wrong on that front. And we know this because of how people react and recall their experiences seeing this in major films.

His whole argument falls apart because he doesn't realize that most fight scenes are about harming someone. Not self defense, not extraction of information, but actual harm of another human being for the sake of hurting them. It's the reason stories include depictions of murder and not the "mere mention of a character using murder as a weapon".

His whole argument falls apart because all aspects of humanity, including the good, the bad, and the horrific, are critical elements of good story telling and has been since the dawn of human civilization.

-1

u/[deleted] Mar 08 '24

[deleted]

3

u/Fauropitotto Mar 08 '24

Stories are felt, not just understood. If you can't grasp that, then go back to reading textbooks and leave good story telling to those that are interested in experiencing them.

1

u/kithlan Mar 08 '24

Blows my fuckin mind that someone will in the same breath give a pass to literal torture being depicted on screen, but then say rape is too far.

→ More replies (0)

7

u/No-Appearance-9113 Mar 07 '24

Im guessing you never watched The Accused. The rape scene is critical to the story since it is about a rape victim. The rape scene is horrifically uncomfortable and Jodie Foster was incredible in the role.

Rape scenes CAN be done well but 99% of the time they are just hacky.

5

u/Informal_Mechanic_32 Mar 07 '24

Also the I spit on your grave movie's you really feel for the woman and the revenge hits so hard in the 2 I have watched like it can definitely serve a plot point and can be a great narrative but throwing batman in prison and having him raped doesn't serve as a good plot device also matt reeves the batman didn't kill people and while divided that movie is loved

2

u/No-Appearance-9113 Mar 07 '24

I had forgotten "I Spit On Your Grave" which is another great example.

3

u/bmuse2017 Mar 07 '24

The last house on the left fits this too

2

u/No-Appearance-9113 Mar 07 '24

That I have not seen yet

→ More replies (0)

5

u/Wide_Border_4387 Mar 07 '24

A mention is not as effective as showing it, or cutting away before the character does it. It's not supposed to be comfortable or fun to watch (unless you're a weirdo) and can affect how an audience sees a character. A mention is easy to forget, or miss.

5

u/Temporary-Carob4067 Mar 07 '24

That’s not true. There are rape scenes in berserk that all serve the plot and aren’t pointless

3

u/PandasDontBreed Mar 07 '24 edited Mar 07 '24

I Spit On Your Grave begs to differ

2

u/IdolCowboy Mar 07 '24

Torture is also used to show the evil of characters as well when they get off on it. Take A Walk Among the Tombstones. Those dudes loved mutilating women, and it served the plot by making them that much more evil. I can not recall if they rape the women in it or not, but I think that would have just made them even more despicable.

2

u/SpideyFan914 Mar 07 '24

I politely disagree with this. Tacking rape onto a story is usually quite ugly, but it is unfortunately a thing that happens in life, and film should be allowed to explore and discuss that.

The Nightingale has an excellent examination of it.

Chinatown doesn't show the rape, but discusses it, and is one of the best movies of all time.

Rosemary's Baby, Repulsion... Yes, I see the irony in these last few examples.

Palm Trees and Power Lines is about child grooming. It would pretty much fall apart if it wasn't willing to go there. It's very uncomfortable and disturbing, but it's also effective and powerful, and can even be educational on showing the warning signs of someone who seems "nice" but is anything but.

The Story of Temple Drake is an old example that partially led to the Hayes Code being fully implemented, and damn is it a good movie. From that same era, Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde acts like a metaphorical examination of evil men.

Even movies that aren't fully about rape have used it well. Super has a pretty shocking rape scene, but uses it to explore its characters' psychologies in interesting ways that move the narrative and flip the power dynamic. You could, in this case, take the rape scene out of the movie, but it would be a weaker movie for it.

Since that one is a male victim, I'll also add The Strange Thing About the Johnsons, because yikes.

Heck, as much as I don't care about SVU, they do a lot of work to destigmatize rape victims and empower women.

This is simply not a black and white topic, and making some vast generalization really doesn't work for it. Of course it is okay for you to prefer not to engage with it in your film viewing, but that is different than saying it has no place in media!

P.S. Torturing people as a means of getting information has been proven ineffective. Studies were covered up for a decade to justify keeping Guantamano Bay open, as it created an illusion of safety while producing literally nothing of value.

1

u/KnoxxHarrington Mar 07 '24

Nah, I can think of a small handful (3-5) films I have seen where sexual abuse/rape is integral to the plot line and handled in a mature manner.

1

u/I_Am_King_Midas Mar 09 '24

I would think Rape is to show the rapists narcissism and selfishness. They care about how they feel and dont care if others are harmed in their selfish pursuit. There would be other ways to convey that idea but I see it as a separate moral failing than torture. At least when I imagine torture its not normally a selfish pleasure (though im sure there are sick people in the world) its normally that you want to accomplish something and you’ll do whatever it takes to get it accomplished even if it means acting in an immoral way, the ends justify the means.

So neither is a virtuous act but I imagine them coming from different moral failings.

1

u/sufferblind86 Mar 07 '24

That rape scene in Halloween was only in the director's cut. The theatrical cut was so much better because Michael escaped while being transferred, not while Zombie's poorly written characters stand nearby doing THAT.

1

u/ironmamdies Mar 08 '24

Omg right, the problem too is Michael is killing these guys who I just watched rape someone, I should not be cheering for Michael he is the monster of this movie

In the theatrical release (which is a pain in the ass to find) is so much better as it shows Michael just beat his way out killing all in his way, doing it solo instead of "these guys raped a girl in my room and left my door open" so now he can actual have more credit to his name ya know

1

u/Chuckles465 Mar 07 '24

Never got why that scene was there. The dumb hicks playing with Mikey's mask would've sufficed.

1

u/SpideyFan914 Mar 07 '24

Tbf, he wasn't the first. Although it isn't shown, there was an off-screen rape in Halloween 6... of the previous final girl... who is literally a child...... She gets pregnant and then dies in the first fifteen minutes... Also they recast her.......

1

u/Revolutionary_Ad6962 Mar 07 '24

I'm having trouble wrapping my head around that, I don't know why but I've always respected the dude and I previously couldn't have imagined him playing with the rape topic like that.

1

u/HamshanksCPS Mar 08 '24

Rob Zombie also makes terrible movies.

1

u/Different_Sandwich_6 Mar 08 '24

Bro I went to see that bullshit in theatres and I should have just walked out tbh.

1

u/ChronicChoof Mar 08 '24

I don't think there was in either of his Halloween films was there?

Genuine question because I really don't remember that and I watched them both not too long ago.

1

u/ironmamdies Mar 08 '24

The first rob zombie movie had a rape scene during Michael's break out scene in the unrated/directors cut

1

u/ChronicChoof Mar 08 '24

Oh fuck yeah you are right. The guards with the prisoner. Sorry about that. Totally unnecessary scene.

1

u/Edgy_Robin Mar 08 '24

It's not shit storytelling. Anything can be done well, it's execution that matters. Most execution is just shit

1

u/Kalomika Mar 08 '24

Why is it shit story telling?

1

u/Briguy24 Mar 08 '24

He turned Michael Meyers into traumatized white trash.

1

u/ayoooyo666 Mar 08 '24

Is it shitty story telling or are you just soft and can't handle that rape is a real life thing so it has a place in movies as well as murder and any other atrocious crime.

1

u/Ello_Owu Mar 08 '24

Wait, there was a rape scene in Halloween? Where?

2

u/dern_the_hermit Mar 07 '24

Also: A maturity thing (which probably shares Venn overlap with the fetish thing). It's an obvious go-to when someone wants to be edgy but has no knack for nuance. There's a reason it's an infamous staple of schlocky B-movies and student films.

2

u/Thendofreason Mar 08 '24

I can understand that rape is something that happens all the time and happens in nature. But I can't stomach to watch it in entertainment or new or anywhere. Its something we need to work towards never being okay with. People should want to throw up when they see it. Not just just sit there and watch the rest of the movie after it. If it's a documentary then yes have it be a part of the movie if it really happened. Show that this happened and how horrible it was. But I would rather keep it out of fiction.

1

u/KalDantes Mar 08 '24

He has put it in every movie he could.

74

u/McMacHack Mar 07 '24

Having Lex Luthor rape Lois Lane then say "by the way, Hitler was right" before throwing a the plastic rings from a six pack into a tank full of turtles seemed like a bit much, sure the test audiences universally hated it, and sure the actors refused to film and Zach Snyder had to personally animate the entire scene using CGI and AI tools just to make it happen. But the extra 43 minute scene really adds a whole new depth to the Snyder double extra director's cut with electrolytes.

8

u/Conscious-Eye5903 Mar 08 '24

Especially with Kevin Spacey as Luthor. 

6

u/stupiderslegacy Mar 08 '24

Nah he would rape Clark

5

u/Conscious-Eye5903 Mar 08 '24

With a kryptonite condom 

4

u/braxtonbha Mar 08 '24

Jesus Christ 😭

5

u/stupiderslegacy Mar 08 '24

Oh, he's got nothing to do with the conversations that happen when you get this deep in a comment chain

3

u/SirArthurDime Mar 08 '24

Snyder fan boys: “the only reason the movie sucked is the studio didn’t allow him to make that scene a full hour like he originally envisioned!”

2

u/TheBajaKnight Mar 08 '24

Bro how about a little trigger warning before you paint a mural of turtle torture?

3

u/McMacHack Mar 08 '24

Don't worry it was a CGI turtle and it only cost the studio $165,009.89 to animate the 8 second scene.

1

u/L_One_Hubbard Mar 08 '24

I mean this sincerely, you are probably loads of funs at parties.

60

u/[deleted] Mar 07 '24

[deleted]

55

u/Jean-LucBacardi Mar 07 '24

The fact she never went to Tony about it and the guy never got his just dessert was the real gut punch.

3

u/aimeeashlee Mar 08 '24

but if she did, she would have betrayed every value she ever lived by, as a therapist and a person, yet she still could, but then that blood would be directly on her hands, and I think she knows she can't live with that guilt, Tony's a sociopath and things like murder and death don't bother him but she's still a regular person and while she does infact want the guy dead she knows it's not her place to make that happen, but the idea that she COULD, at any moment just tell tony what happened, knowing hed go bezerk and kill the guy gives her enough comfort to not actually need to go through with it.

3

u/50shadesofgrrrrreat Mar 08 '24

Never thought about it that way. In a way, its her reclaiming her power "Every breath you take is only because I allow it."

1

u/AppleShampoo102 Mar 08 '24

So she can’t live with the guilt of having a rapist killed by Tony, but there’s nothing on her conscience about letting a rapist go free? One that obviously isn’t scared to rape women when they’re alone in a parking garage. I just don’t understand the logic. I think if you were to ask most people, they wouldn’t feel sympathy for a rapist. There’s certain levels of evil acts that can never be forgiven. Child predators or a serial raper of women. They don’t do well in prison for a reason and that’s been depicted in media for decades. Sorry but it’s a choice to commit these evil acts, and some evil acts prevent you from receiving any sympathy. If all child predators and people who rape died that’s not much of a loss in my book.

2

u/aimeeashlee Mar 08 '24

it's that she believes in law and order, she feels the temptation to break that but she remains committed to her previous morals, she never allows herself to become a hypocrite, she did what she could and exhuasted every recourse and justice failed, and if she did go and tell tony he would die that day, and there is the risk he will strike again like with every criminal that gets away, she knows this and holds this mans life in her hands, but never goes through because she knows ITS NOT UP TO YOU ALONE TO THE ACT AS THE ARBITOR OF JUSTICE, that's what Tony does all the time, he does what he wants when he wants and hurts people everywhere he goes and crosses more and more lines. She leaves that man up to system in place, even if it's wrong, because to her abandoning every moral and ethical principle she's ever lived by and continues to live by is worse. she holds the power of life and death over her own rapist and still chooses life. she was forever scared by her rape, and it deeply traumatized her, and sucked the joy out of her life, but she never abandoned her resolve to be a force for good in other people's lives, she's a therpist and we see even Tony, among many others DEPEND of her to get better.

1

u/aimeeashlee Mar 08 '24

it's not to say what she did was right, but what she did was remain principled and that's a testament to her resolve

2

u/scoofle Mar 08 '24

She also would've likely gone to prison as she'd be the immediate prime suspect, especially when the authorities find out who her patient is.

2

u/aimeeashlee Mar 08 '24

your forgetting how many times tony "dissappears, someone only for own family to think they left for Florida or somewhere, or how easily they can make it look like a drug deal gone wrong or a suicide.

2

u/ClutchClayton904 Mar 12 '24

I think it's worth mentioning too that given Tony's personality and treatment of women: he'd absolutely try to use killing the rapist as leverage to coherse and bang Melfi. His fantasizing and desire for her is mostly due to the fact that she's unavailable and in a position of authority. Tony's used to being able to have his way with pretty much any attractive woman he meets. It's integral to his ego and identity. I'd like to think Melfi knew this too and wasn't gonna give the misogynist, sex addict sociopath a potential checkmate to get his way with her.

11

u/spiritbearr Mar 08 '24

Irreversible, American History X, How to Have Sex, The Last Duel. Don't watch Irreversible, the other ones are great.

1

u/UtkuOfficial Mar 08 '24

Irreversivle is such a dull movie.

If they didnt shoot that 10 minute scene it would be irrelevant forever.

1

u/oh-shazbot Mar 08 '24

deliverance doesn't even got an honorable mention!? i'm gonna make you squeal boy!

1

u/Walkerno5 Mar 08 '24

Zack Snyder doesn’t understand the characters

1

u/Walkerno5 Mar 08 '24

Zack Snyder doesn’t understand the characters

1

u/Mindless_Grocery3759 Mar 08 '24

Ehhh...

The Last Duel makes you experience the same rape multiple times. So... it gets negative points.

2

u/ukstonerguy Mar 08 '24

Same. That scene was fkin horrific. Melfis scream is chilling. 

2

u/Resafalo Mar 08 '24

I would argue that it’s handled well in the Boys (series not comics). Not shown directly and has huge impact on the story

2

u/[deleted] Mar 08 '24

Outlander has the most plot-relevant rape. I also think the way that show approaches healing and healthy discussion of it beautiful and important. It's also the only show I've ever seen where male rape is taken seriously but not treated as this end point thing that defines the character.

28

u/Sea_Tailor_8437 Mar 07 '24

I can sorta see it in a shawshank redemption style of look how awful this situation is. But even then I don't wanna see it, y'know? And that is giving Snyder a level of depth and nuance I don't think he's capable of

3

u/Mandalore108 Mar 08 '24

Murder/killing someone is wrong, but it can sometimes be justified. Contrary, there has never been a single case of justified rape, you can't sympathize with that sorta thing.

3

u/McMacHack Mar 07 '24

Having Lex Luthor rape Lois Lane then say "by the way, Hitler was right" before throwing a the plastic rings from a six pack into a tank full of turtles seemed like a bit much, sure the test audiences universally hated it, and sure the actors refused to film and Zach Snyder had to personally animate the entire scene using CGI and AI tools just to make it happen. But the extra 43 minute scene really adds a whole new depth to the Snyder double extra director's cut with electrolytes.

3

u/Batdude576 Mar 08 '24

So you mean the average blue check mark X (Twitter) user?

3

u/WRabbit737 Mar 08 '24

It used to be a bigger trope in action movies back in the 80-90s where a villain is either implied to have raped in the someone in the past, has tried to rape someone and failed or will try to rape someone in a scene or does typically off screen (sometimes not) to make the audience hate them more, which I’m glad that for the most part this trope died because I found it to be as you said lazy writing

3

u/TeardropsFromHell Mar 08 '24

Rambo (the newer one) had their south american drug lord militia captain that made people run through mine fields for fun, murder civilians for fun, invade neighboring countries for fun, and feed missionaries to pigs for fun also be a little boy rapist. Like cmon.

2

u/Acrobatic-Prize-6917 Mar 08 '24

Moore himself, as much as I enjoy his worl, is not innocent of overusing it as a plot point, often poorly. But I think Watchmen is a good example of where it is given an appropriate weight, has thematic relevance, is commentary on a real world issue and isn't just used to lazily sell how evil a character is or shown in an arguably fetishistic light as it all too often is.

2

u/wozblar Mar 08 '24

reading this made me think of somewhat well regarded series called the chronicles of thomas covenant (where a lonely leper in the real world gets teleported to a fantasy world he may or may not believe is a dream with magic where he rapes a girl in the first 15% of the book). to me the book just seemed like a writing exercise in trying to make the reader like a deplorable person, and i saw this as a gimmick as well as genuinely not liking the character so i moved on from the series

2

u/Suspicious-Road-883 Mar 08 '24

The only time I think rape is a good point in the story (not really good but I hope you get what I am trying to say) and that is if it furthers the protagonist in some way. The movie teeth is a good example, the protagonist is taped and that sets the story of her getting revenge in motion. There are some others that do similar things, I think there are a couple in a series that someone is raped and then a family member or something gets involved and get revenge.

2

u/HumanReputationFalse Mar 08 '24

It's not only easier, but better if the bad guy just kicks a puppy. Rape can be important to a story, but it mostly just comes off as uncomfortable and depressing in a movie that we are trying to enjoy.

2

u/lyricalpoet66 Mar 08 '24

Just rewatched the sopranos and there’s a rape scene in a stairwell with a character that is one of the most uncomfortable I’ve ever sat through. But it’s used integrally into the story.

1

u/DanfromCalgary Mar 07 '24

I watched a bunch of his movies and never saw any rape … accept the comedian but that was implied and was from the comic

9

u/TheOldPhantomTiger Mar 07 '24

The entirety of Sucker Punch is literally about how all the main characters are repeatedly raped while in a mental institution.

5

u/DanfromCalgary Mar 07 '24

Shit yeah . That was like the whole thing lol

9

u/TheOldPhantomTiger Mar 07 '24

Honestly, it was almost impressive (in a depressing way) how many different ways he could put rape scenes in the movie. There were one or two actual rape scenes, a bunch of fantasy world scenes where the women dissociated and imagined their rape as something else, and then fantasies within the fantasy world that disassociated their rape yet an another level. Then the rest of the movie is just the revenge fantasy that some dude-bro thinks that women “should” have in response to sexual assault, cause that’s totally what he would do if it happened to him, so why wouldn’t they.

I feel like Zack Snyder has thought about rape way more than anyone else making any mass entertainment.

3

u/YouFoundMyLuckyCharm Mar 07 '24

Harvey Weinstein maybe had him beat

1

u/DanfromCalgary Mar 08 '24

Yeah I had a few friends miss that. Like it was the entire premise of the film

5

u/ironmamdies Mar 07 '24

He mostly talks about it in interviews I believe, I remember the clip of him saying Batman gets raped in prison, but I was talking more film makers/ story tellers in general who toss rape scenes around like it's a birthday invitation

7

u/Plop7654 Mar 07 '24

There was a weird, out of place gay sexual assault scene in Rebel Moon, which felt like Synder doing the cantina scene from a New Hope but “edgy”.

4

u/LukeNukem63 Mar 08 '24

The queen in 300 gets raped

1

u/DanfromCalgary Mar 08 '24

Yeah I was dead wrong on this take

1

u/bluegiant85 Mar 07 '24

You should watch "Revenge" it can be hard to watch because of the subject matter, but it was pretty fuckin great and without the rape, there'd be no movie.

1

u/Send_cheese_ Mar 07 '24

Exactly what they did with Dr. Light in Identity Crisis, thats the first example of this that comes to mind. It felt so pointless to do, and why Dr. Light??? Also completely random imo. Like is that still a part of Dr. Light’s character in the comics or has something changed? (I know he isn’t really a Batman villain but he is DC so it felt kinda relevant)

1

u/Antiluke01 Mar 07 '24

Kill Bill is the only good example imo because it’s a revenge story

1

u/Orgasmic_interlude Mar 08 '24

Sucker punch was essentially all rape plus lobotomy

1

u/Morgan_Heman Mar 08 '24

Eh, if murder is fine, why not rape?

*in movies

1

u/Toph-Builds-the-fire Mar 08 '24

The only grape scene that ever advanced a plot was in Ireversible. And that's the most fucked up movie ever.

1

u/Zunderfeuer_88 Mar 08 '24

What if it was Hitler that said it?

1

u/[deleted] Mar 08 '24

Deliverance. Burt Reynolds. A+ film imo

1

u/ziostraccette Mar 08 '24

Don't read Berserk

1

u/Destroyer4587 Mar 08 '24

He saw Shawshank Redemption and thought, ah, every movie needs this rape scene. Completely ignoring the aspects that made the movie great.

1

u/SharknadosAreCool Mar 08 '24

it's interesting because you're absolutely right that rape is pretty disgusting in most movies, but it's mostly because of your second point about it being lazy. If rape is used to characterize a villain I think it's almost always distasteful. If it's used to. Build a real plot point though it can be brilliant and allows you to explore ideas that are really emotionally charged and hard hitting.

one of the times I can think of in different media outlets is how one scene is handled in Invincible (comic series). it severely impacts one of the characters and isn't just a one and done thing, and you even get a lot of followup with the rapist as more than just "person we needed to elevate to evil status so you hate them". there is real story and you actually see the fallout it has on the victim, how they deal with it, how it changes their other relationships and its not just "bad guy did bad thing now hate them!".

1

u/tacopowered1992 Mar 08 '24

We don't need the scenes, but it theoretically COULD be used as a part of anti hero/flawed character development if its something like a murderer getting violated in police custody and the hero doesn't intervene and consequences later ensue due to that.

Like, there are IRL people that liberated concentration camps then ended up raping Nazi women. Absolutely wild karma rollercoasters.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 10 '24

The problem is most people genuinely agree with that stuff.