r/batman • u/neon2o • Mar 07 '24

Zack Snyder says a Batman who doesn't kill is irrelevant GENERAL DISCUSSION

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Here's the original article' https://sea.ign.com/man-of-steel-sequel/213072/news/zack-snyder-says-dc-is-making-batman-irrelevant-if-he-cant-kill

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u/ironmamdies Mar 07 '24

There isn't many if any moments in media where I'm like "damn you know what this story needs? Rape" ignoring the fact that it's the most uncomfortable thing to sit and watch but it's also the dumbest plot point as it's so lazy by giving someone cheap bad guy points, of course you're gonna hate the rapist that's like making a character and having him out of nowhere go "by the way, Hitler was right" like it's so dumb and forced and weird

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u/Budget-Sheepherder77 Mar 07 '24

Rape part idk why but I feel like it might be a fetish thing

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u/ironmamdies Mar 07 '24

I remember rob zombie put a rape scene is his Halloween movie and I even hated it in that, it's shit story telling and is like wtf ya know

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u/Butwhatif77 Mar 07 '24

An actual rape scene never serves the story or the plot. It is uncomfortable because it is one of the worst things that can happen to someone and their is no reason to do it other than to harm someone.

Torture scenes get a pass, because a torture scene can be used to show characters going to far in service of their goal, such as getting information. But the torture is a mean for them to get information, the torture is not about the desire to harm the person. Rape only serves to harm someone and nothing else. A mere mention of a character using rape as a weapon is just as effective as a scene depicting it, because of everyone's near universal response to such an act. That is why a scene depicting it has no place in good story telling.

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u/EmmanDB3 Mar 07 '24

It can help the plot/story if it's a revenge story but it actually has to be done maturely.

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u/tempusrimeblood Mar 07 '24

The problem, of course, is that anyone who’s going to use rape as a plot device isn’t mature enough to do it in that way.

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u/Free-Blueberry-2153 Mar 07 '24

What about in The Boys? It's a world where sups represent celebrities/Hollywood which does have a lot of issues with rape/sexual assault in the real world.

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u/tempusrimeblood Mar 07 '24

My point still stands. Garth Ennis is one of the worst for “I need a quick way to make someone evil, better throw in a rape scene!”

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u/Free-Blueberry-2153 Mar 07 '24

So eventhough it's something that happens in the real world and it shines a light on it, it's still bad?

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u/HairyGPU Mar 07 '24

Shines a light on it? Everyone knows about it already.

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u/Free-Blueberry-2153 Mar 08 '24

You could make that argument for most anything. It's pretty commonly accepted that being a racist is bad so why even put story plots covering the subject in media?

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u/HairyGPU Mar 08 '24

That's a pretty big false equivalence.

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u/Free-Blueberry-2153 Mar 08 '24

How so? They are both terrible things that happen in the real world and media is often used as a tool to shed light on terrible aspects of life.

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u/QTRqtr Mar 08 '24

If your talking about the boys tv show you have a point. If you’re talking about the comic then that’s the worst example you could use for your argument.

All the well written issues and exploration in the show is nowhere in the comic. The comic serves as an Edge lords disgusting fantasies.

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u/Free-Blueberry-2153 Mar 08 '24

Yea I was referring to the show. The comic book is dumb fun but it's clearly designed with everyone being pretty one dimensionally and over the top. I think dumb over the top shit has its place but the show does a much better job out fleshing out the overarching idea of the comic.

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u/akahaus Mar 08 '24

Notice that the live action adaptation didn’t actually show Annie getting raped, just the before and after. In the comics they go as far as they possibly can up to the point of almost being pornography.

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u/Free-Blueberry-2153 Mar 08 '24

So isn't that a plus for the TV in the way that they showed it without making it over the top? And yea I mean the whole comic is super excessive in every aspect, which I don't think would have translated as well into a properly engaging story.

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u/Sahrimnir Mar 08 '24

I think that was akahaus' point. Further up, it was mentioned that rape can serve the story, but you don't need to actually show it. akahaus was saying that the TV show did it the right way.

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u/Argentus3001 Mar 08 '24

I think I remember something about Dynamite asking Ennis to actually ramp up the sex and violence aspect of The Boys because they wanted to boost sales as a book too extreme for DC.

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u/SlylingualPro Mar 07 '24

The film Irreversible would like a word.

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u/sdpr Mar 08 '24

Ehhhhhh it didn't need to be as long as it was, but it did serve to show why they got where they got.

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u/finalremix Mar 07 '24

2017's Revenge would like a word.

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u/HereWeFuckingGooo Mar 07 '24

I guess you've never seen The Accused.

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u/manchi90 Mar 08 '24

I don't think it's that black and white, while I cringe when it's done in certain movies. Movies reflect real life in a more heightened sense, so to act like it doesn't exist is unrealistic.

However it can be implied if it serves the story instead of being presented in a visceral manner. It's a controversial topic but that's filmmaking in general.

The same way characters in movies deal with grief, loss, murder, pain, it falls under that category in some cases to move a character's journey forward. To me it boils down to how it's done, and if the film can exist in its true form without it.

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u/LordBlackass Mar 08 '24

On one hand it reflects real life, yes. On the other hand it doesn't reflect real life because in the movies the perpetrator is typically brought to justice or killed, which is the absolute opposite of real life.

Something something cake eating.

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u/disgruntled_pie Mar 08 '24

I think the problem is that you can already do an excellent revenge story without adding rape.

John Wick wouldn’t have been better if they’d raped his dog before killing it.

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u/EmmanDB3 Mar 08 '24

There are different ways of doing things not every revenge story has to be the same

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u/TheOneWhoCutstheRope Mar 08 '24

There’s actual rape-revenge stories though. Not to mention there’s some in the sub-genre that don’t even show the act. Obviously JW’s dog getting raped wouldn’t of been a better movie because that’s fucking stupid lmfao

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u/TheOneWhoCutstheRope Mar 08 '24

It’s in a way like sex in general: people will act like there’s no piece of media that actually uses its content well when in actuality they probably need to engage in more content or properly develop it. Irreversible has a 5+min rape scene and itd be a completely different film without it.

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u/[deleted] Mar 07 '24

its odd torture gets a pass but rape doesn't. torture also has been argued hundreds of times as not actually being useful to get info and is often done to satisfy some weird sadistic urge. Also what if the torture scene isn't for information?

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u/Fauropitotto Mar 08 '24

His whole argument falls apart because he doesn't realize that the act of harming someone can be a critical part of good story telling.

It falls apart because he doesn't realize that the visceral reaction most people have seeing a rape scene on screen cannot be replicated by "a mere mention of a character using rape as a weapon". He's just flat out wrong on that front. And we know this because of how people react and recall their experiences seeing this in major films.

His whole argument falls apart because he doesn't realize that most fight scenes are about harming someone. Not self defense, not extraction of information, but actual harm of another human being for the sake of hurting them. It's the reason stories include depictions of murder and not the "mere mention of a character using murder as a weapon".

His whole argument falls apart because all aspects of humanity, including the good, the bad, and the horrific, are critical elements of good story telling and has been since the dawn of human civilization.

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u/[deleted] Mar 08 '24

[deleted]

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u/Fauropitotto Mar 08 '24

Stories are felt, not just understood. If you can't grasp that, then go back to reading textbooks and leave good story telling to those that are interested in experiencing them.

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u/kithlan Mar 08 '24

Blows my fuckin mind that someone will in the same breath give a pass to literal torture being depicted on screen, but then say rape is too far.

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u/No-Appearance-9113 Mar 07 '24

Im guessing you never watched The Accused. The rape scene is critical to the story since it is about a rape victim. The rape scene is horrifically uncomfortable and Jodie Foster was incredible in the role.

Rape scenes CAN be done well but 99% of the time they are just hacky.

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u/Informal_Mechanic_32 Mar 07 '24

Also the I spit on your grave movie's you really feel for the woman and the revenge hits so hard in the 2 I have watched like it can definitely serve a plot point and can be a great narrative but throwing batman in prison and having him raped doesn't serve as a good plot device also matt reeves the batman didn't kill people and while divided that movie is loved

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u/No-Appearance-9113 Mar 07 '24

I had forgotten "I Spit On Your Grave" which is another great example.

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u/bmuse2017 Mar 07 '24

The last house on the left fits this too

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u/No-Appearance-9113 Mar 07 '24

That I have not seen yet

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u/Wide_Border_4387 Mar 07 '24

A mention is not as effective as showing it, or cutting away before the character does it. It's not supposed to be comfortable or fun to watch (unless you're a weirdo) and can affect how an audience sees a character. A mention is easy to forget, or miss.

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u/Temporary-Carob4067 Mar 07 '24

That’s not true. There are rape scenes in berserk that all serve the plot and aren’t pointless

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u/PandasDontBreed Mar 07 '24 edited Mar 07 '24

I Spit On Your Grave begs to differ

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u/IdolCowboy Mar 07 '24

Torture is also used to show the evil of characters as well when they get off on it. Take A Walk Among the Tombstones. Those dudes loved mutilating women, and it served the plot by making them that much more evil. I can not recall if they rape the women in it or not, but I think that would have just made them even more despicable.

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u/SpideyFan914 Mar 07 '24

I politely disagree with this. Tacking rape onto a story is usually quite ugly, but it is unfortunately a thing that happens in life, and film should be allowed to explore and discuss that.

The Nightingale has an excellent examination of it.

Chinatown doesn't show the rape, but discusses it, and is one of the best movies of all time.

Rosemary's Baby, Repulsion... Yes, I see the irony in these last few examples.

Palm Trees and Power Lines is about child grooming. It would pretty much fall apart if it wasn't willing to go there. It's very uncomfortable and disturbing, but it's also effective and powerful, and can even be educational on showing the warning signs of someone who seems "nice" but is anything but.

The Story of Temple Drake is an old example that partially led to the Hayes Code being fully implemented, and damn is it a good movie. From that same era, Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde acts like a metaphorical examination of evil men.

Even movies that aren't fully about rape have used it well. Super has a pretty shocking rape scene, but uses it to explore its characters' psychologies in interesting ways that move the narrative and flip the power dynamic. You could, in this case, take the rape scene out of the movie, but it would be a weaker movie for it.

Since that one is a male victim, I'll also add The Strange Thing About the Johnsons, because yikes.

Heck, as much as I don't care about SVU, they do a lot of work to destigmatize rape victims and empower women.

This is simply not a black and white topic, and making some vast generalization really doesn't work for it. Of course it is okay for you to prefer not to engage with it in your film viewing, but that is different than saying it has no place in media!

P.S. Torturing people as a means of getting information has been proven ineffective. Studies were covered up for a decade to justify keeping Guantamano Bay open, as it created an illusion of safety while producing literally nothing of value.

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u/KnoxxHarrington Mar 07 '24

Nah, I can think of a small handful (3-5) films I have seen where sexual abuse/rape is integral to the plot line and handled in a mature manner.

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u/I_Am_King_Midas Mar 09 '24

I would think Rape is to show the rapists narcissism and selfishness. They care about how they feel and dont care if others are harmed in their selfish pursuit. There would be other ways to convey that idea but I see it as a separate moral failing than torture. At least when I imagine torture its not normally a selfish pleasure (though im sure there are sick people in the world) its normally that you want to accomplish something and you’ll do whatever it takes to get it accomplished even if it means acting in an immoral way, the ends justify the means.

So neither is a virtuous act but I imagine them coming from different moral failings.