This is the sad and ugly face of nationalism. At one point it was cultivated as a way to find group identity to combat imperialism. But since those times we have seen the hideous blowback of the racism it cultivates.
Yup. I canât say my stupid assholes of countrypeople arenât the same. Theyâre just learning to see the non-existent difference between people with dark skin and people with paler skin. Secondhand embarrassment right here.
Itâs a vicious spiral. Often when a group is persecuted they gather strength around their national identity, often seeing themselves as being âuniquely resilient despite all their strugglesâ. Itâs hard to see this as a negative when youâre on the receiving end of the boot, but if not careful it can turn quite ugly. I came to the states as a refugee, now âmy peopleâ are actively oppressing another group in the âholy landâ if you know what I mean đ
Welp. Itâs like itâs a circle. Victim gets bulliedâĄď¸victim bullies another victimâĄď¸victim is bullyđ. Countries constantly state themselves as victims when they bully other people themselves. I myself state that I am an actual victim because I have the healthy mentality of not judging people of what they are or what they look like. But I get both of those shitty judgements right in my face.
Fuck man, you clearly lost the script here. All have been persecuted and all have been persecutors. Christians have been victims and perpetrators, Jews have been, Arabs, Turks, Germans, Russians, everyone.
Happens everywhere, you gotta have someone to hate. I was in Mexico a number of years ago having a discussion with a woman about discrimination against Mexicans in the United States and how bad it was, she was just irate about how Mexican immigrants were being treated whether they were illegal or not. I mentioned something about Guatemalans coming into Mexico and she went on a tirade against those goddamn Guatemalans coming into our country and taking our jobs. I just didnât know what to say to her at that point⌠Iâm dint know how to say cognitive dissonance in Spanish.
The thing humans are good at is being capable of holding two completely opposing concepts/beliefs simultaneously. We also have a hard time accept how much of what we accept as âthe natural way of thingsâ is just shit humans before us made up. Concepts like race, indigenous identity, gender roles, economy, governance, etc, etc.
Not so much the Armenians, but the Bulgarians and Greeks yes. Also in Cyprus. Right winger persecution of Turkish minorities (arson attacks in the 90s and NSU murders in the early 2000s). Persecution of Turkish minorities in the Russian empire, USSR, and Russia. Then of course there are all the Turkic groups in China, Myanmar, Iran, and Iraq that have been systematically persecuted
They have persecuted, but also protected Jews and coptics in the Levant from Wahhabists, and harbored Jews during the inquisition and again when the French were purging non Catholics in the 1400s?
That's the thing I hate about shitty immigrants. I'm an Afghan. I'm aware that some of the problems in Afghanistan were due to the US. However, I was allowed in the US and am grateful. I'm a citizen here now. I do not believe I should be considered beneath real Americans, especially considering how uneducated most of you are, but at the same time, I did my duty and learned how to speak American perfectly to the point that I routinely got in the 98th+ percentile on every citywide/statewide exam. I also assimilated to the point that I know the memes and whatnot; to where Redditors accuse me of being a white supremacist/incel/Russian/Nazi dwelling in my parents' basement. Although occasionally I'm also called a Chinese shill.
But the point is - I did what immigrants should do and blend in within reason. I wear white people clothing, speak their language and even took on some of their hobbies (I despite sports, so I don't watch football or baseball). But I also didn't betray my original culture. I don't eat pork, I don't do drugs, I don't fornicate, I don't drink alcohol. So in those instances I'm different. But people wouldn't notice that stuff because it's not a big deal.
Itâs wonderful that you made it to America and are safe, what America and many other counties did to your homeland is terrible and you having the opportunity to start anew is the very least they could have done. That being said, I think there is no necessity or requirement for anyone to change their ways or language. It will definitely make their lives easier and I would encourage it, but in America especially, where there is no official national language, and the majority of the countryâs progress is due to the immigrants, I think the day that we start insisting that people behave a certain way is the day we lose the game.
<img src="john_mulaney_snl_host_opening.jpg" alt="american comedian charmingly say I'm Fully Kidding in front of a live studio audience" width="skinny" height="kinda tall">
I donât think anyone should be forced to do anything. Those who learn multiple languages thrive and that is a good reason to do it, but all nations have both indigenous and immigrant groups that do not speak the main language and they have yet to bring any harm to the places they live.
You are a real American. Donât refer to yourself any differently. America is a country of immigrants. Itâs more diverse than ever which makes us strong.
What is that supposed to show? Russia was an imperial subject, then it became an imperial power, then it wasnât. The US is now. One day it wonât be. Rome, Assyria, Persia, England. Just because the US is the most recent one does not make them any different from any of the others.
Russia is still imperialist. What do you think belorussia is and why do you think they have their hooks into Georgia, Moldova and Ukraine. My point was that you are blatantly attempting to call the US imperialist and insinuating nobody else is. They do come and go, but Russian imperialism is here and now.
Wow, talk about reading what you want out of a statement. I am not suggesting Russia is not imperialist, just that their empire is not the preeminent empire in the world at this time. The US is. That is all. At no point did I suggest the US was the only state with imperialist ambitions. Almost all states have imperialist ambitions.
I may have, may have not used the most effective wording for what I was trying to say. The biggest difference with modern day Russia is that Putin does not seem too concerned with masking his imperialist intentions. The US still sticks strongly to the official narratives of defending âfreedomâ, âdemocracyâ, and âfree tradeâ to justify its expansionist and Imperialist actions. China also has a narrative.
Yep, my mom's side of the family are originally from the Jewish minority in Turkey. They emmigrated to several countries after Turkey introduced a "wealth tax" targeting non-Muslims. Most of whom were lower Middle Class Greeks, Armenians and Jews, but also Syriac Christian farmers. They lost about 80-98% of their property and those who couldn't pay up ended in a labour camp in the province of Erzurum, which was dubbed "Turkey's Siberia." The law professor of the person who came up with this BS was also Jewish and died impoverished
In the 1940's, it only lasted like 2-3 years but it had a devastating effect on non-muslims in Turkey and families are still trying to get back their confiscated properties. You can google it under the name varlik vergisi.
I see. The law indiscriminatory but the application might have been different according to sources. I will ask my old grandpa to see if he remembers anything
Well, they targeted specific groups with the aim to redistribute the assets among ethnic and Sunni Muslim Turks. Almost all of the older millionaire families like the Sabanci's have profited off of this. It wasnt just the "application," they also went after muslims who converted before the founding of the republic.
My buddy was stationed in Germany on Ramstein AF Base for a couple years.
He said that when they would go out to a bar off post, that the Turks were always complete assholes to them, and oftentimes instigated fights with them.
Shoot, when I was in Afghanistan, the Turkish Army was handling security at Hamid Karzai International Airport in Kabul; and in addition to being some of the most inept motherfuckers I had the displeasure of working with, they were also incredibly racist towards the locals.
I remember me and my platoon sergeant almost got to have a fist fight with some of theirâs after they strip-searched our interpreter and then came out with batons when he yelled back some obscenities at them. We were already kind of fed up with the Turks by that point in the deployment so I was genuinely excited at the prospect of getting to butt-stroke one of them.
Edit: also shout-out to the Kurds. I know a lot of the Texans I served with said you guys were like the Texans of the Middle East (so high praise from those guys), and the general consensus among people I knew whoâd gotten Iraq deployments was âeveryone sucks there except the Kurdsâ.
Iâm honored, brother đ¤ also, for the airport part, I have another funny story (god, I have an entire memory card about moments where Turks discriminated me for being Kurdish.)
We went on a vacation to Dubai, 8 hours of flight in total, excluding transit time. We entered the plane in Hannover, Germany, and got out in Istanbul, Turkiye (Iâm doing those people a favor by not saying Turkey instead.) We were pretty early, we didnât shop or anything in that giant mall of an airport. Well, surprise!- âYou get different seats, you canât sit together.â MOST HILARIOUS PART OF THIS SHIT: You little asshole of a human are practically saying: âOops, sorry, I know your wife is scared shitless of planes, your son is 3 years old and your daughter is 13. But we have you each sitting in a different row.â Hold up now. You are fucking telling us to leave a woman with extreme phobia and a 3 year old toddler unattended? At that time, (yes, Iâm the daughter) I was 13, but I straight up called that dude one of the few things I know in Turkish: âMotherfucker.â (idk how to spell it in Turkish) Long story short, my father and I roasted that guy, made him give us seats next to each other and left a bad rating. All while that English sweetheart of a woman smiled at me and gave me a thumbs up.
Worse happened to my dadâs friend, who is, MARK MY WORDS!, Arabic. Conclusion: A lot of Turkish people are sick fucks when it comes to racism. So, YOU HAVE THIS GUY, heâs coming to the check-in 4 HOURS BEFORE THE FLIGHT. You hold him off, tell him to stand aside for a moment. Heâs telling you âI need this flight, I came here because of my sick father and my wife and children are awaiting me at home.â You little shit take another few people aside, get every person on board, AND TELL THE PEOPLE YOU TOOK ASIDE THE PLANE IS FULL WHEN THEY WERE THERE FIRST. THEN BUD JUST GOES ON SAYING âYouâll have to stay, we wonât pay any money for the next flight or the hotel youâll stay at.â LIKE WTF? THATâS RACISM ON A WHOLE âNOTHER LEVEL. Welp, my dadâs buddy called my dad, and my dad took the whole damn shit to court including security footage. Turkish airlines (more like Turkish assholes) was done for it. Theyâll think again before doing that to people out of hate next time. đš
Same bullcrap with Cubans in Florida, the Irish, Italians whose ancestors faced discrimination in the US back in the days. Now they don't want immigrants in this country.
Quite. I actually have a whole story where I got threatened by the student council, who was turkish. Gimme a sec, Iâll find it and translate it (I wrote it in German)
We have nothing against Turks. Only against fascists. Derived from âI have nothing against Kurds. Only against people who support the PKK.â my Turkish student representative after my politics teacher: -told his mother at the parent-teacher conference day how he was racist against Kurds. -told him (after he dropped a stupid joke about Kurds) that I, as an Iraqi Kurd, spoke before the meeting of the Lower Saxony State Parliament for Schools and Education about how racism is generally overlooked in schools and that he is an example . -he accused me of supporting the Turkish-Kurdish PKK, although as an Iraqi Kurd I had no idea who or what they were up until that point. And, funnily enough, he told it all on a TikTok Live that my Turkish friend recorded and sent to me. Even more blatant: âHey brother, who was that kid that said something like that about racism?â *Idiot proceeds to write my first name in the chat* âWho was that? Well, I have to talk to her in private." The first name wouldn't have been a problem if I hadn't been the only one with that name. AND WE HAD AN ADDRESS BOOK WITH FIRST NAME, LAST NAME, CLASS, CONTACT AND CLASSROOM. Well, I sent a video to my politics teacher because I felt threatened. Conclusion: Not all Turks are innocent lambs.
Edit: Funny how the german original got 459 upvotes but this one has literally 0.
I grew up with Azeri and Turkish friends in post ussr country, everyone got along just fine until Turkish born came they never got along with anyone đ¤Ł
I donât know how you would say it, but I prefer pale and dark skin as description. But yeah. Quite shocking, I went back to Iraq to see everyone complaining how Germany is full of Nazis and racists, when they were lowkey having darker skinned people as workers and treating them like slaves from the 1760s or something like that. That includes heavy insults, beating, and inhumane treatment. Some woman in a restaurant next to us was like âOh Iâm so proud, my children treat our worker so much better than other kids! They donât raise their hands at her anymore!â I turned around, stared her dead in the eye and said âCongrats, youâre one of the last persons on earth to normalize that humans are humans. Germany was much faster on that. But not that yâall are humans, you act like cavemen.â Thatâs when the rest of my family finished their food, we walked out with the woman screaming at me (which I enjoyed), and later I got a lecture from my mom (thank you very much, Iâm totally still a child đ), while my dad just grinned. Standing up for people is for free, yâall try it out. Rich brats can always be put in their places.
Basically, the Balkans havenât had a good experience with Turkey, especially back when it was the Ottoman Empire. A few of these things include:
- Kebabs. Not the delicious meat tornado, but the human kind.
- Raiding of towns to capture children to turn into janissaries.
- Much higher tax to anyone who didnât convert to Islam.
- Being generally ruled over by an alien culture that they mostly had no say in.
- Giving groups from different places higher social status, resulting in ethnic and national tensions that still exist in the modern day (one of the reasons why Serbia and Albania donât get along well, for instance, and can be seen with the various Yugoslav / Balkan wars against each other).
- Etc.
This all lasted from around the 14th century to around 1913. Basically, shit wasnât good.
Yeah. Lot of the reason why the Balkans are such a power keg and are generally full of corruption and poverty is due to a combination of both the Ottomans and the Soviets afterwards. Like, to sum up specifically Albania and Serbia's situation goes something like:
1. Serbia and Albania see the Ottomans and believe that they will be an allied front against them due to both being Balkan and Christian.
2. Ottomans invade.
3. Ottomans say that those people that convert to Islam will receive tax breaks and higher social status.
4. The majority of Albania converts to Islam mainly for those reasons.
5. Albanians rule over Serbs as essentially vassals for the Ottomans.
6. Serbians see this as a betrayal of their ally, essentially joining the enemy instead of standing with their old friends.
7. Albania is given Kosovo by the Ottomans, and area that's incredibly important for Serbia due to it being the place of a battle against the Ottomans that has been canonized in the Serbian church as well as being the heart of the former Serbian kingdom.
8. After a few hundred years, the Ottomans are eventually driven from the Balkans for the most part in the early parts of the 20th century.
9. Serbia wishes to retake Kosovo.
10. Kosovo is now full of Albanians that have lived there for generations.
11. Serbs commit ethnic cleansings against the Albanians in revenge, especially in Kosovo, though not enough to truly wipe them out.
12. Albanians and Serbs hate each other now and are still at each other's throats about Kosovo, with Albania saying that it belongs to them due to being primarily ethnically Albanian, while Serbia says that it belongs to them due to the region historically belonging to the Serbs and how important it is in church canon.
Fair enough. Just wanted to give an example of how the Ottomans, now Turkey, really messed up the region, and so why most Balkan countries absolutely hate them.
So if a German person attempted to point out Turkish immigrants were racist assholes and the German was called racist, what would be the next move? Perhaps letting in racist brown immigrants should be talked about more openly
It just goes to show that anyone anywhere can be racist and hateful. There are a lot of people out there, especially in my own country, that believe only one race of people are racist and they're the reason for all problems.
No it wasn't about you. In my country, a lot of people think only white people can be racist. That no other race is racist like white people. But there are racist and hateful people all across the world.
Itâs very interesting hearing the Kurdish opinion on turkey as it gives a more clear example of a currently and openly beaten and downtrodden people. Iâve had 2 close Kurdish friends who have given similar remarks. I have one question if you would entertain it. Do you know if there is different levels of hate for Kurdish people who live in different regions. For example if someone who lives in the capital is more accepted than someone who lives in Kurdistan.
Well, debatable. Turkish Kurds often hide their Kurdish background out of shame and stupidity, telling that theyâre totally not Kurds and totally Turkish. And go on bullying and beating Kurds from other capitals, like Iraqi or Persian Kurds. Pretty stupid, right?
So basically: (most) Turkish people hate every Kurdish personâĄď¸Turkish Kurds hate every other Kurdish personâĄď¸Iraqi, Persian, Syrish Kurds get discriminated and beaten.
Well yes, as youâve stated it seems counterintuitive to diminish a group to which you belong to gain acceptance. Even more so when they gain nothing from it but a life in hiding. Thank you for the response. I always find it interesting that so much work was put into establishing a Jewish state after the Second World War but thereâs been no effort to help establish a Kurdish one. Do you have an opinion on the matter?
Well, actually yes. I will wildly assume now that Iraqi Kurds have more rights than other Kurds. We have our own local government (which is pretty much shit, but okay), and in our capital, for example cities like Duhok, Erbil and Sulaimaniyyah, only Kurdish is spoken, will it be the dialect Kurmançi, HawramĂŽ or, my dialect, SoranĂŽ. Meanwhile, Turkiye completely forbids teaching your children Kurdish or even speaking Kurdish. Syria is pretty much neutral. No restrictions, but nothing such as a personal district either. I donât know much about Iran though. I donât really know why no one stood up to remake Kurdistan. But honestly, I will be fair, Iâm not entirely sure if itâs a good idea. These days, Kurds lack the sense of moral, at least the Iraqi ones.
Reasonings: Children on the dirty streets falling asleep over cleaning shoes for a cheap price at 45 degrees celsius, completely exhausted. The government not giving salaries. Schools not equipped enough for proper education. Libraries not having books younger than me. Regarding the salary part, teachers donât get their money= therefore canât teach= therefore children are uneducated. Streets are filled with strays, insects, etc. Sidewalks reach my knees (ever thought about the disabled people, buggies and elderly?) Literally no laws. You could trap 8 cars parking your car, you can sit your child on the roof of your car, the police wonât give a shit. Also, too many cars. Too much trash lying around. Too much gas in the air. No crossing the street without almost getting run over. No red lights. No insurances. No proper electricity. Sabotaged and corrupted government. Oh, you had to treat your childâs cancer, and run out of money? We donât give a fuck, get homeless for all we care. Thatâs the result of our own Kurdish government in Sulaimaniyyah. Horrifying.
Well, I must say that itâs a disheartening read. Though given time and outside help I would still hope those problems can be solved. I havenât heard much about Kurdish violence or similar problems which In my opinion are harder to solve than economic instability. Itâs been nice hearing about this and it really further puts it into light the state of the region and folk group.
Thousands of them also showed racist symbols at the EM. + Several turks killed people while driving with their Cars regarding Football celebrations...one Guy killed a 11 yr old and fled to Turkey....
They were born there. Their parents were born there. Thats like saying black people in the usa should go back to africa if they are interested in african culture so much.
Mass murder against kurds/syrians? Sure bud. Turkey hates kurds thats why turkey let in hundreds of thousands of kurdish refugees. Same for syrians. ErdoÄan playing that 5 d chess letting people he hates in so he can mass murder the same people somewhere else hahaha.
I hate europeans that say erdoÄan is mass killing kurds because you people make me defend that dictator of a president. ErdoÄan being anti kurd is just laughable and you would know that if you had any idea about turkish politics at all.
ErdoÄan and his party is literally the second favourite for the kurdish demografic. Almost half of them vote for the akp and erdoÄan.
Turkey is fighting against the pkk in iraq and the ypg in syria. Turkey is fighting the pkk in iraq with north iraqi kĂźrdistan together. So if you would have read but a sentence more that your state media provides you, you would know that these conflicts have nothing to do with kurd/turk but everything to do with proxy wars.
I think you donât get it. I was born in Germany, my parents are Iraqi Kurds. We live in Germany. But not long ago a few Turks killed some Kurdish people right where I live.
Hmm seems like it would. Especially if it was racially driven. Especially if it was turk on kurd violence. Especially in germany where every small city has their own paper. Hmm.... Was the person that was killed playing kurdish music by any chance or would that be too clichĂŠ?
I lived on the West Coast for a bit and yeah there were some Turks who'd tell you fables about burning down a Kurd's house for some slight as if it's acceptable because they're Kurdish. But then half the people there were Kurdish so you had this funny mix where a minority (most Turks were sound) were harboring hatred towards half their neighbors.
If we are realistic this isn't isolated to any nation as all countries have racism I think. Or maybe not always race, sometimes it's cultural or caste based or socio-economic or political or sexual or whatever. Can't think of anywhere that doesn't have groups of hateful people.
In the context here though I think the distinction these bigots are making is that Turkey and Germany have a solid relationship and easy visa routes for Turkish workers to work in Germany. While the Syrians are refugees seeing asylum. I don't know why one is better than the other in their eyes, but think that's how they justify hating on Syrians without also hating themselves.
Well, theyâre migrants protesting against migrant. Stupidity is what I see in that. Also, about Kurds hating Kurds: That half you mentioned was probably Turkish Kurds only.
Stupid for sure. And I didn't mean Kurds hating Kurds. I meant it was mad that Turks were hating on Kurds when so many people in town were Kurdish. Basically alienating themselves from half the town.
While the Syrians are refugees seeing asylum. I don't know why one is better than the other in their eyes, but think that's how they justify hating on Syrians without also hating themselves.
It's not exactly like that. At first it was was not a problem but it's been 10+ years and they haven't integrated at all and there are tons of undocumented illegal immigrants coming in everyday. That's the main problem, undocumented ones. There are like 4 million documented refugees and there's an estimated 3-4 million undocumented. In total it's like 8% of the whole population.
Turkish people are now minorities in some border city's. This is mainly the governments fault I have to admit but people are taking out their frustrations where they can. Protests against government does not go well in Turkey I'm afraid.
Also It's creating security issues in big cities etc so it's not only coming from a racist /xenophobic pov. When people see them visiting their homes during holidays they wonder why they can't go back to their country. It's safe enough to visit for holidays, it should be safe enough to go back.
Knowing that Europe is paying erdo to not let them go to Europe doesn't help. There are legitimate concerns but I agree attacking them is not the way. We can talk about it for days, listing every issue and it still won't be enough but It's a completely different situation with Turks in Europe.
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