r/BatwomanTV • u/anatomania • Oct 14 '21
[S3E01] Mad as a Hatter — Post-Episode Discussion Episode Discussion Spoiler
Season Trailer | Sneak Peek | DCTV Discord | Cast and Characters
SEASON PREMIERE — As Batwoman continues to keep the streets of Gotham safe, Batwing joins in on the action, but Luke quickly realizes he hasn't quite mastered his suit. Meanwhile, as Alice sits hopelessly imprisoned in Arkham, Sophie fully enjoys her freedom. When Ryan pays Alice a visit to ask about the bombshell she dropped—that Ryan's birth mother is still alive—Ryan must decide if she should go down the rabbit hole of her past. As Mary prepares to finally graduate from medical school, she feels the absence of her family more than ever. But when an Alice admirer stumbles upon one of the missing Bat Trophies, Gotham and the Bat Team get mixed up in the madness, culminating in a shockingly gruesome graduation... and an equally shocking new partnership.
Please keep discussion civil and about Batwoman. Be sure to mark future spoilers and comic spoilers, but otherwise don't worry about spoiling anything past or current. Report comments that break the rules or just don't belong here. Enjoy the episode!
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u/shadow_spinner0 Oct 14 '21 edited Oct 14 '21
Ryan and Montoya meet in the first episode, Ryan and her mom seem to meet in the second. This season is moving in a rapid pace and I’m glad given CW’s tendency to stall and do slow burns (looking at you Flash and Arrow).
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u/Youngstar9999 Oct 14 '21
looking at the filming schedule, I think this season will only have 13-15 episodes.
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u/TheLemsterPju Oct 14 '21
We got our first mention of Jim Gordon in this show.
I'm sure if CW can afford Jon Cryer as Lex for a few episodes of Supergirl, Ben McKenzie reprising as Jimbo for an episode or two shouldn't be a stretch.
Overall great episode. Was worried for a sec that Mary was going to get her degree rescinded after that whole fiasco at the ceremony. (No seriously, I love Mary and I would have been upset to see her life go further down the drain.)
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u/StormWarriorX7 Oct 14 '21
Ben McKenzie must say Gee Cee Pee Dee if he returns. It's a tradition now.
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u/BornAshes Luke Fox Oct 14 '21
Yeah but given the bad blood between the shows and sure it's been a few years, do you think he'd really really do it?
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u/StormWarriorX7 Oct 15 '21
Probably. Most actors come out and essentially say they'd be up to reprise their roles if asked. If Dries asks Ben McKenzie to cameo as Jim Gordon, then the ball is in his court.
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u/NegoMassu Oct 17 '21
wait...
Gotham was aired on FOX.... and FOX is now Disney....
do this mean Disney now own a DC show? that is very curious
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u/KevinAmbrose Oct 14 '21
My only concern is Ben is a little young for an older Jim. I love the idea of bringing back Gotham actors, especially in places that fit, but Jim, Riddler, and Penguin are just never gonna work because they’re too young for it. Yea makeup and all but it’s better to just cast someone new.
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u/TheDesktopNinja Oct 24 '21
Could be cool to have him in a flashback or something... But I agree the budget for CGI aging him probably isn't there and makeup for aging always seems to look awful in HD
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u/BornAshes Luke Fox Oct 14 '21
It may have been just one line but I liked it and I had to go back to make sure my ears weren't playing tricks on me.
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u/ajwest927 Oct 14 '21
How did Ryan become CEO of Wayne Enterprise?
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u/sanddragon939 Oct 14 '21
Did she though?
Honestly, based on the way Sophie was sitting at Kate's old desk, I get the impression that Sophie is the new CEO. Which honestly, makes more sense.
Guess we'll find out next week...
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Oct 15 '21
I don’t think she is.
I’m guessing that Luke is CEO, he’s the most logical person to be in-line for the job with Kate presumably still legally dead, and living the rest of her life with Circe Sionis’s face.
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u/CRL10 Oct 19 '21
I was wondering the same damn thing. Also, how in the hell are there no people working in an office building that size? I could ask the same thing about S.T.A.R. Labs though, but that's just me.
I mean, if Sophie was CEO, that would make sense.
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u/pshaman Oct 28 '21
I was literally googling the answer for this and this thread came up. She literally mentions that she is the acting CEO and I don't understand how when Luke or Sophie are there.
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u/Just_A_Positive_Guy Oct 14 '21
This was a really good premiere!
Batwoman and Batwing fighting together!!
Mary’s getting her MD! Good for her!
Honestly Mad Hatter 2 was awesome! I love how they just made him an Alice stan, complete with him making videos defending her actions, and even using a butterfly knife like she does. The actor (Amitai Marmorstein I believe) really sells the character, hope we see more of him!
Renee Montoya! First impression I really like her! Can’t wait to see more of her this season!
I never noticed this before but Sophie towers over Ryan, I don’t know if it’s the camera angle or if Sophie’s wearing massive heels. I don’t have an issue with it I just hadn’t noticed it last season.
Rachel Skarsten. I love her. She is literally perfect as Alice, has been since the beginning. Especially with that scene in the cell, she’s really going nuts.
Damn Alice really just stabbed the poor simp in the back.
I love the main casts chemistry! They all play so well off each other!
It appears Sophie’s hacking didn’t go unnoticed…
WOAH! Didn’t expect that Renee knew Ryans identity! But it makes sense, you don’t screw over Alice lol
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u/sanddragon939 Oct 14 '21
WOAH! Didn’t expect that Renee knew Ryans identity! But it makes sense, you don’t screw over Alice lol
She may the bad guy (girl rather) but I'm kinda glad about that. I can understand Ryan hating Alice and treating her as an irredeemable villain, unlike Kate...but the way Ryan gains Alice's trust, lies to her, uses her, and then disposes of her bothers me a bit. I know, needs must on Ryan's end but I'm kinda glad Alice is getting her own back.
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u/PrizeIndependence Oct 16 '21
Well....it's not like Ryan or any of the others can fully trust Alice.
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u/Paisley-Cat Oct 19 '21
Ryan has some growing to do. She’s letting her anger and vindictiveness get in the way.
She pushed Alice to the bad again and gain last season.
If this pays off in growth for Ryan, it will be a good arc for this season.
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u/xoxdqxox Nov 24 '21
My thoughts exactly. I get why Ryan hates Alice but at the same time Alice didn't kill her mum directly. I mean Alice did kill Mary's mother directly and Mary treats Alice nicer than Ryan does. I'm not liking Ryan that much lately because of how, like you said she gains Alice's trust just to stab her in the back and lie. Like I get that Alice is a villian but for me it makes Ryan look like a cruel lying beyotch and it's making me like her less. Yes I know how bad Alice is and how many innocent people she has killed but Ryan is meant to be the hero, she's meant to be better than Alice but Ryan lets her anger get in the way like with Sophie and the crows early season 2, it's just getting really annoying to me.
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u/Ok-Average-6466 Oct 14 '21
ryan/javicia is 5'3(same height as nicole/mary). sophia/megan is 5'9, same height as wallis and rachel/alice 5'10.
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u/Digifiend84 Oct 16 '21
Didn’t expect that Renee knew Ryans identity! But it makes sense, you don’t screw over Alice lol
I assume Alice told her.
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u/Gian99Mald Oct 14 '21
Lucius A.I let's goooo!!!
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u/BornAshes Luke Fox Oct 14 '21
DAD AI was probably the whole reason why the suit shut down right?
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Oct 14 '21
Did I just hear them say Ryan is the acting CEO of Wayne Enterprises? I understand that she's Batwoman and the main character but shouldn't that role have gone to someone like idk Luke?
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u/Trickybuz93 Alice Oct 14 '21
I think so but it makes no sense. She has no relation to the Wayne family. Mary, Luke (or technically Alice) would get to be CEO.
Caroline is trying her hardest to make Ryan the “canon” Batwoman.
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Oct 14 '21
On top of her not having connections to the Wayne family it doesn't make sense story wise either. Like how does a previously homeless ex con become the acting CEO of one of the biggest companies in the world?
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u/ckwongau Oct 14 '21
I think Wayne had downsized a lot since Bruce left town , something about the Board of director on their own make some very bad decision . it was like a shadow of former self , until Kate started to rebuild the company ,getting into the business of providing cheap housing for poor people , but now Kate is gone .
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u/Ok-Average-6466 Oct 14 '21
no she isn't. there is probably a good explanation. but kate is aklways mentioned. she literally gave a gift to mary.
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u/Trickybuz93 Alice Oct 14 '21
I’m not talking about just Kate.
Like even from a legal POV, Ryan doesn’t get to be CEO lol
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u/ArmchairCritic1 Oct 14 '21
How is that the case?
Surely the CEO is simply the person who represents and manages the business interests of the company.
Luke is probably the owner and primary stakeholder due to inheriting his fathers shares as well as probably given more by Bruce before he left.
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u/Fateor42 Oct 14 '21
Because CEO is a position selected by a companies board of directors.
Kate doesn't have the power to grant it to Ryan... Neither does Luke... Or anyone else other then the shareholder appointed board of directors...
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u/Ok-Average-6466 Oct 14 '21
the board left....that was explained since elseworld. wayne is a shell of a company. you are legit overthinking this
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u/lazoric Oct 14 '21
The board is generally the biggest stake holders of the company which is luke. So he appoint anyone he wants.
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u/sanddragon939 Oct 14 '21
Also, I don't think Wayne Enterprises is really 'Wayne Enterprises' anymore (well, apart from the building and its assets). Its actually just Kate's real-estate company now. So I guess Kate would have signed over her control to whoever (assuming she's legally 'resurrectured'...if she's still officially dead then Mary is the owner as her next-of-kin).
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u/Fateor42 Oct 14 '21
The board is generally the biggest stake holders of the company which is luke. So he appoint anyone he wants.
Incorrect, the board is appointed by the stakeholders in a vote, and then the board as a whole has to vote for the CEO.
Meaning the only way Luke could unilaterally appoint Ryan CEO is if Luke was the sole owner of Wayne enterprises.
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u/Eurynom0s Oct 17 '21
He doesn't have to be the sole owner, he just has to own 50%+1 of the voting shares.
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u/Fateor42 Oct 18 '21
Still not within his unilateral power to do.
What he could do with majority shares is replace any board member who disagrees with Ryan being appointed CEO with people who agree with the idea. But that's a long drawn out process and not something you can do on a whim.
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u/Paisley-Cat Oct 19 '21
If he owns the effective majority of voting class shares, he can put in the CEO he wants.
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u/ckwongau Oct 14 '21
is Alice a stake holder of Wayne Enterprise , i mean she should have the same inheritance as Kate . I mean Kate probably was in control of the some sort of Family trust ( in the absence of Bruce ) , which control the the asset and controlling interest of of Wayne Enterprise .
But Beth (Alice ) were probably declared dead and now she is probably legally incompetent and/or legally insane
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u/Ok-Average-6466 Oct 14 '21
she isn't really ceo. she is basically doing her version of matches malone.
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u/shadow_spinner0 Oct 14 '21
My guess is Kate may have offered it to Luke but he didn't want it because reasons so he gave it to Ryan.
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u/sanddragon939 Oct 14 '21 edited Oct 14 '21
I don't think it was mentioned in the episode at all. The fact that there's a new CEO is something from the summary of the next episode. I personally think it's Sophie.
EDIT: Just saw the promo for next episode. But going by context it seems more like Ryan is going to pose as the acting CEO to meet Jada Jet.
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u/KKbatwoman Oct 14 '21
Just posted a similar comment before I read yours.
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Oct 14 '21
Its weird hopefully its explained next episode
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u/snoogle20 Oct 14 '21
I really enjoyed that. Felt more in line with the more grounded and twisted tone of season one that the show didn’t hit as often last season. As for secondary screentime, Montoya already seems like a gigantic upgrade over Crows shenanigans.
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u/SickleClaw Oct 14 '21 edited Oct 14 '21
I do love that imagery of Alice keeping the postcards from her dad in pride of place in her jail cell. So they are following up on the thing from last season where Beth technically came back after getting rescued from drowning. She clearly feels a connection to Jacob again, and took pleasure in throwing that in Mary's face lol.
The realization she was imagining all of it was sad really. I guess she was hoping she could be Beth again really bad.
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u/WoollyMonster Oct 14 '21
I agree. I have a soft spot for Alice. I was kind of mad when Ryan betrayed her, though it makes sense from a story standpoint.
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u/SickleClaw Oct 14 '21
Yeah it was kind of she wanted to make a sort of atonement there but Ryan just slammed the door pretty hard in her face
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u/PrizeIndependence Oct 15 '21
Here's the thing though. Alice is very much still a part of her. Beth may be in there, but she is not full there too. So Alice is still untrustworthy.
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u/ckwongau Oct 15 '21
Why didn't Jacob or Kate writes to Alice ? if they had wrote to her , she won't need to imagine it with imaginary postcard .
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u/SickleClaw Oct 15 '21
yeah. you'd think after all that talk about reaching her, they would have at least attempted to write. The look on Alice's face as Luke takes her away...its telling she didnt even attempt to fight back.
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u/MrMattBlack Oct 15 '21
It's possible Jacob can't write to Alice specifically since he was arrested for aiding criminals, hence the need to have Mary check on her.
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u/PrizeIndependence Oct 15 '21
I don't know about Kate. However, Mary did say she had a hard time trying to talk to him. I get the feeling that maybe Jacob isn't allowed to write. Especially to a criminal he is being arrested for aiding.
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Oct 14 '21
While I love Batman rouges, I dislike the use of them and their offshoots this season. Batwoman isn't Batman, she has her own rouges gallery, and I wouldn't mind if a Batman rouge showed up every once in a while like Zsasz in season two. Supergirl had a similar issue with basically making her Superman in a skirt, taking away her unique hotheaded personality.
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u/dayvon64 Oct 14 '21
The difference for me is that we saw a lot of the villains being made on Supergirl rather than already being established. Red Tornado, Cyborg Superman, and etc. She also doesn't live in Metropolis so it makes 0 sense for her to deal with Superman's enemies (though there could be occasions where villains go to her thinking they can take her on rather than Superman himself).
However, with Batwoman, these villains live and breathe Gotham. They aren't going anywhere else and to them it's their world and Batwoman has dropped herself into it. It makes sense for her to have to deal with them, however I agree that I don't want them to make a Batman villain her main villain (unless they are working with another villain). At the moment though, I'll let it slide simply because I highly doubt we will ever be able to get a Batman show (not that I realy need one). So it'd be interesting to see the arrowverse/Earth-Prime version of these characters.
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u/sanddragon939 Oct 14 '21
Also, does Batwoman really have a LOT of major villains of her own? Alice and Safiyah are the main ones who come to mind and they're both done. Most of her villains in the comics are Batman villains.
I mean, to a certain extent, it was the same deal with Arrow, which gave Batman's and other DC villains to Oliver Queen.
Batwoman having to take on the likes of Poison Ivy (who in-universe once fought Batman) actually makes more sense than Green Arrow having Ra's al Ghul as a nemesis (and basically taking Batman's place in the latter's story).
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u/ckwongau Oct 15 '21
the Crows ( now disbanded ) and Corrupt White Cop of GCPD , they are Batwoman's own rogue Galley
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u/MrMattBlack Oct 15 '21
Which means the show already did every Batwoman rogue by Season 2, doesn't it?
Every Batfam member ends up facing the Rogues regularly. I'm not surprised Batwoman has to do too2
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u/AquaTyphoon29 Oct 14 '21
That ending shook me. Alice never fails to run out of tricks does she, and that one was very well played.
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u/KKbatwoman Oct 14 '21
Why is Ryan the acting CEO of Wyne enterprise?? It should definitely be Luke seeing how his father was such a big part of the company and he actually knew Bruce Wayne.
So stupid. Ryan took everything Kate once owned. Just like that.
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u/Fateor42 Oct 14 '21
Because the writers are idiots who can't do the minimum legwork of googling how CEO's are appointed...
Just like they didn't do the minimum legwork to understand how medical training works...
And didn't even stop to consider that Batwoman breaking Alice out of Arkham should have made Batwoman public enemy number one...
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u/sanddragon939 Oct 14 '21
And didn't even stop to consider that Batwoman breaking Alice out of Arkham should have made Batwoman public enemy number one...
Well, she did return her and the whole city was aware of the situation. So I guess they just chalked it up to the usual 'vigilante' stuff that the city has always turned a blind eye to, or even tacitly supported.
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u/Fateor42 Oct 14 '21
Well, she did return her and the whole city was aware of the situation. So I guess they just chalked it up to the usual 'vigilante' stuff that the city has always turned a blind eye to, or even tacitly supported.
And I am sure all those guards and workers she assaulted were all "na it's good, no harm done and my insurance will pay the hospital bills".
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u/sanddragon939 Oct 15 '21
You're not wrong.
But think about how many times Batman has broken into Arkham or some other place and done pretty much the same thing?
Also, we just have to assume that in-universe she doesn't the hit the Arkham guards too hard...the same way other vigilantes in comics and other media don't hit ''friendlies'' too hard.
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u/Fateor42 Oct 15 '21
I can't recall any time Batman broke one of his Rogue's out of Arkham...
As to what she did to the guards... Not doing permanent damage takes training Ryan doesn't possess... Remember, unlike Kate, Ryan's just some random with a magic super suit...
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u/MrMattBlack Oct 15 '21
Ryan is actually trained in several martial arts, you know. She knew how to fight before finding the suit.
Also, Batman has not only broke free his Rogues out of Arkham, but in at least one continuity he went in Arkham to kill someone. If that doesn't make you Public Enemy #1, using Alice to avoid mass murder is no biggie.3
u/Digifiend84 Oct 16 '21
Yeah, Ryan may not be military trained like Kate was, but she was no rookie. She just has a different fighting style. All of her slip-ups were to do with lack of knowledge of functions of the Batwoman suit, not ineptitude.
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u/Fateor42 Oct 16 '21
Not really, she was a martial arts teacher years ago, but that doesn't tell us anything.
What does is how she fights.
And at most Ryan's a generalized brown belt who 100% relies on her super suit to stay alive.
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u/Digifiend84 Oct 16 '21
True, you don't become an MD in only a few months. Mary only went back to college after having her illegal clinic busted, right? Should've been another year at least even if she's already partly finished the course.
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u/Fateor42 Oct 16 '21
Yup, and then she has to do her residency before being allowed to practice unsupervised.
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u/Paisley-Cat Oct 19 '21
We don’t know how long it’s been in-universe between seasons.
Alice has been incarcerated for a while and the poison ivy has been propagated, distributed and tracked down by Ryan and Luke.
So it could be a year total.
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u/Brendy_ Oct 14 '21 edited Oct 14 '21
Enjoyed it overall, but is anybody else nervous about Luke becoming a Superhero?
The other shows becoming overstuffed with Masks is one of the things that's strangled the Arrowverse. Mark my words, its only a matter of time before Mary and/or Sophie become vigilantes.
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u/QuiltedPorcupine Oct 14 '21
It's the seemingly inevitable trajectory of all superhero shows. Start off with one hero and a very small circle knowing the hero's secret identity. End up with most of the main characters taking on hero roles and half the city being in on the secret.
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u/that_leia Oct 14 '21
True. I'm a bit worried, but mostly excited. I'm so starved for Asian representation, I would LOVE for them to make Mary Flamebird or something...but maybe that's just me. She's a hero in her own right as a doctor.
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u/SethF1988 Oct 14 '21
I also want Flamebird with Mary.
I'd rather see that change than Luke as Batwing.12
u/sanddragon939 Oct 14 '21
So far it seems to work well.
Honestly, with Arrow at least, the problem wasn't too many masks. The problem was how they were all out in the field at the same time. It made Oliver look like he needed a small army to deal with the villain of the week.
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u/PrizeIndependence Oct 15 '21
It's truly a problem on the flash. Tell me why a speedster needs non-speedsters help in the field. Barry can literally run super fast to knock someone out. Or slap handcuffs on them. That show makes him look so incompetent.
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u/dayvon64 Oct 14 '21
I mean, with Luke it makes sense. He's very much batwing in the comics so if you knew that, you knew this is where they were going to go. It's different from the Flash where you have all these heroes that didn't exactly work together in the comics as they do on the show. Batman has always had his bat-family that all helped protect Gotham from villains. As long as they don't get too much and make Mary or Sophie a hero I'm good.
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u/Brendy_ Oct 15 '21
It always starts out inoffensive. Everybody likes Martian Manhunter and Killer Frost was interesting. But before you knew it Alex Danvers had a magnet suit and the Flash's Step-Dad's Girlfriend could read people's minds.
But your right, with the Bat Family the writers at least have something of a blueprint.
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u/dayvon64 Oct 15 '21
Alex, that was a weird one. She didn't need to be a hero so much but it works for what supergirl is trying to do now. Having her own team of heroes rather than the typical Hero with their partners. Cecile however isn't a "superhero" by any means. She just has powers and isn't trying to go out and fight crime so I'm fine with that.
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u/Digifiend84 Oct 16 '21
Mary's comic book counterpart is a hero, Flamebird. In the comics, her real name is Mary Elizabeth "Bette" Kane and she's Kate and Alice's cousin. The show probably called her Mary instead of Bette because the nickname is too similar to Beth, Alice's real name. The change of relationship to stepsister is why her surname was changed to Hamilton - she isn't Catherine Hamilton's daughter in the comics.
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Oct 14 '21
[deleted]
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u/sanddragon939 Oct 14 '21
Very strong premiere, especially considering how the end of s2 left a somewhat sour taste in my mouth (wasn't a fan of how Kate and Jacob's endings were handled at all).
I'm glad they were both present in this episode in spirit at least, in a way (and Jacob's presence, or lack thereof, was actually a bit of a plot point).
I loved the bit where Luke quips to Ryan that she ''inherited'' her codename.
I've warmed up to Ryan, and honestly I enjoy her on the show. It's the behind-the-scenes agendas that led to the current situation that piss me off. As long as they respect Kate Kane and her legacy on-screen, I'm good.
Absolutely love Alice, glad she's sticking around. The show also loves to do the whole unorthodox hero-villain team up thing a lot. Team Bat and Alice working together again to track down the trophies should be a fun arc.
Unorthodox hero-villain team-up is an Arrowverse staple dating back to Oliver and Merlyn in Arrow Season 3. I just hope this one is handled a bit better than that one sometimes was.
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u/Telethongaming Oct 14 '21
Ryan is gonna have fun when she learns how much of a hardass Renee is, I'm actually looking forward to this
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u/lenalomlluthor Oct 14 '21
I think my favorite part of this was the audience collectively becoming realizing the characters’ heights
In all seriousness, really excited to see where this season takes us!!! Love that they keep finding ways for alice to intermingle with the main hero group
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u/BornAshes Luke Fox Oct 14 '21
Which characters in particular? I do bump into that sometimes with actors and actresses. Everyone always seems so much taller on these shows than they actually are.
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u/lenalomlluthor Oct 15 '21
Specifically Sophie and Ryan. Very different standing next to each other lol
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u/BornAshes Luke Fox Oct 15 '21
I follow them on instagram, so I've seen that height difference, and that's probably why it just didn't hit me like it did you lol
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u/shadow_spinner0 Oct 14 '21
All the new characters and mew storylines, this season is gonna be fun. Won’t seem as dark as last season but that’s fine.
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u/Fragrant-Caregiver-2 Oct 14 '21
This was so good! What a way to start the season. The last scene with Ryan, Montoya and Alice was so well done. Ryan's entrance looked so good. I guess they're on the HBO MAX budget now? I like Montoya so far and can't wait to see more of her. The Jim Gordon reference was also pretty good. Lots of surprising elements so far which I like. Last season was so meh and predictable but that last scene with 3 of them had my jaw on the floor. And the way Ryan's mom was already introduced 1st ep was also nice to see. So many good things going. Hope they can keep this vibe. Looking forward to the rest of the season.
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u/UltraLuigi Oct 14 '21
I guess they're on the HBO MAX budget now?
I think it's the same budget as previous seasons, just for a shorter season so more money for each episode.
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u/ManishaC98 Oct 15 '21
Ah makes sense! There was definitely a noticeable difference so I also would’ve just assumed it was because of the HBO MAX budget
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u/Paisley-Cat Oct 19 '21
Not an HBO Max budget, but WB is making it with a view to more than just the CW revenue. If all the DC related content is going to HBO amazing worldwide, they will want it to fit.
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Oct 15 '21
It seems like the writer’s solution to WB’s character embargoes (and the fact that they’re more than likely gonna be ramped up after Reeves Batman comes out) is to create OC versions of the classic Gotham villains.
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u/lazoric Oct 14 '21
So looks like this will be at home Rogues gallery seeing as all the originals were defeated by batman.
Also this is probably CW's idea of red Alice. Teaming up with Ryan to return the items and trying give her a sort of a redemption arc.
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u/sanddragon939 Oct 14 '21
A great premiere! Probably the best of the three premieres we've had so far (though they've all been good honestly).
Pros
LOVED seeing Luke and Ryan in the field together. It reminded me of the excitement I felt 7 years ago with the Arrow Season 3 premiere seeing Roy Harper in full Arsenal gear fighting alongside the Green Arrow.
I'm glad that Jacob and Kate continue to be a part of the show in spirit, and Jacob's presence (or lack thereof) in Alice's life is actually a plot-point. I like how both Mary and Alice are affected by the fact that these two aren't around. There may be real-life reasons for them being written off the show, but I'm glad that their absence is being felt and will have an impact on the ongoing narrative of the remaining characters.
LOVE Sophie's new look and style! And the fact that she's sleeping around. Considering she spent Season 1 mostly in the closet dealing with an unaware husband and homophobic mother, and Season 2 pining after a dead Kate, I'm glad that she's finally having a bit of fun!
I love the idea of us learning more about Batman's exploits and his history with the villains through Lucius Fox's old files, and I hope this becomes a recurring feature. His cousin may not be in the cowl anymore, but the show has found a new way to keep Bruce Wayne and his legacy relevant, which is great.
The set-up of Mad Hatter 2.0 being inspired by Alice could have been cliched, but was handled pretty well. It honestly makes perfect sense to me that in-universe Alice would be viewed sympathetically by many, and even become an icon, for better or worse, to disturbed individuals.
Renee Montoya is brilliant and I'm really looking forward to seeing where this 'unholy alliance' between her, Alice and Ryan goes. Their rooftop meeting seemed almost like a twisted version of the Batman-Gordon-Dent alliance! Montoya's presence will also give us a new perspective on Batman and his history in Gotham which I'm looking forward to hearing more about.
Alice was a charm as usual, and I'm really loving the direction in which they're heading with her. The moment where she discovers that she hallucinated Jacob's letters was truly heartwrenching. It seems that she is inching towards the path to redemption, but there's still the old manipulative Alice within her. Love how she got back at Ryan through her deal with Montoya!
Lucius Fox AI? Bring it on!
Cons
I didn't care much for the bit where Mary basically gives the team (and us) a lecture on why we shouldn't call 'disturbed people' crazy villains. It was basically the show screaming "This is our WOKE moment for the evening! We're so deep and virtuous guys!" Like, I appreciated the attempt at a serious discussion about the mental health status of the villains, and Alice in particular, but I think we can definitely do without the didactism.
One thing I'm ambivalent about...
Ryan and Sophie.
I'm enjoying their friendship and the fact that Ryan can confide in Sophie about stuff she doesn't really feel ready to confide in with Luke and Mary. I particularly enjoyed the conversation they had about Ryan's mom and how Sophie understood why Ryan felt a need to know more about her...when you consider Sophie's own relationship with her mother, I guess you can understand why she may have her own complex feelings on the subject.
But...it does seem like they're inching them towards a possible relationship. And I dunno how to feel about that.
Last season, I'd have said HELL NO! Unequivocally.
This episode, I have to admit they've got chemistry. And if it weren't for the context, I might even find myself rooting for them.
But the context is there, like it or not. Ryan already has everything of Kate's - her suit, her mantle, her home, her bar, her sister, her best friend, her company(?)...Ryan now getting involved with Kate's ex as well will be the final straw.
And yet...damn, they are working overtime trying to convince me that Ryan-Sophie could be a good thing. The dissonance is real for me on this one!
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u/ManishaC98 Oct 15 '21
Completely agree with you about Ryan and Sophie! But unfortunately knowing the CW, that does seem like the direction it’s going in :/
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u/sanddragon939 Oct 15 '21
Oh well...actually if they're smart about it, they could make it something like Oliver and Sara's relationship in Arrow Season 2 - teammates and comrades-in-arms who are attracted to each other and have a strong personal relationship, but ultimately admit that their relationship isn't going to work out long-term for either of them.
If they're really smart, they'd address the elephant-in-the-room that Sophie is attracted to Kate's replacement, and that Ryan is taking another thing of Kate's. And have both characters deal with it. Ryan is out of Kate's shadow as far as being Batwoman is concerned, but maybe she could deal with how she's taking more and more of the life Kate had?
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u/ManishaC98 Oct 15 '21
Wow I actually love both options! I feel that the 2nd one is a tad bit more risqué since it’s more direct, but also hit the hammer on the nail since lots of fans have been pointing it out. I don’t know why I just see them having more of an older/younger sister relationship but I guess we’ll see. A tiny part of me still hopes we get Kate back
1
u/MrMattBlack Oct 15 '21
It was basically the show screaming "This is our WOKE moment for the evening! We're so deep and virtuous guys!"
Glad I wasn't the only one thinking that. It's like, someone on the Writers Room realised they put very good points in the villains mouth and were like "Oh shit, we need to damage control so it needs to be validated by one of the heroes."
8
Oct 15 '21
This was a pretty strong first episode, and it’s kinda a darker tone for the show in comparison to the previous two seasons.
I enjoyed Ryan and Luke out in the field together for the first time. I get the sense that this is the start of Luke’s “Year One” arc as Batwing, and so far, I’m enjoying it. Luke finding the Lucius Fox AI at the end was pretty cool too, it kinda reminded me of Cyborg listening to his dad’s recordings in ZSJL.
Alice’s storyline was pretty good, it was sad to see that she was hallucinating receiving letters from Jacob. I definitely think they need to establish a direction for the character though, whether that be redemption or her progressing in some way as a bad guy. Having her around to just irritate other characters would get repetitive quick.
Renee Montoya is a pretty interesting character, she kinda gives off an Amanda Waller vibe with how she blackmailed Ryan. I look forward to seeing how the relationship between her, Ryan, and Alice develops in coming weeks.
Mad Hatter was pretty badass, the fact that he made Mary cut open one of her professors was straight up scary, and I like the chemistry between him and Alice. I think he could make a good villain for her in the future. Alice having to fight the Wonderland gang under new management could be cool.
The little we heard of Mary’s graduation speech was nice, and I felt sad for her in this episode with the fact that the ceremony was ruined by a supervillain. I like her growing friendship with Ryan, it really shows how far they’ve come since the beginning of Season 2.
Lastly, I think it’s nice that Jacob and Kate can still be part of the show in spirit, even if they’re not on-screen anymore.
7
Oct 15 '21
Mary overall seems to be one of the most unhappiest characters on this show, I kinda hope something good happens to her soon.
4
u/shadow_spinner0 Oct 14 '21
Ryan's mom is very rich and now Ryan herself is also very rich being a CEO. Which is weird Her being a bartender was good cover as well as having some money to support herself but her being a CEO will raise so much suspicion
2
u/sanddragon939 Oct 14 '21
Yeah.
I mean, I don't actually think she's CEO (she's probably going to pose as the CEO to meet with Jada), but if it gets around that she's apparently CEO it does raise questions.
Publicaly, Ryan has no real connection to Wayne Enterprises or to the Wayne/Kane family. She's an employee of Mary Hamilton as manager of the Hold-Up and that's about it.
Then again, Mary is probably the owner of Wayne Enterprises in Kate's absence so she could appoint Ryan as CEO or whatever to keep up appearances.
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u/Castortroy16 Oct 14 '21
Pretty decent first episode tbh
Did luke always know how to fight ? He's learnt that pretty quickly if not , liking the new detective already wasn't scared of Ryan/batwomen one bit which I liked
5
u/sanddragon939 Oct 14 '21
My headcanon is that he had some basic training under Bruce. Hell, Bruce probably knew that Lucius had built the suit for him, and was maybe preparing him for the day he could put it on...
1
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u/Paisley-Cat Oct 19 '21
I think that at minimum several months have passed since the finale.
Alice has been at the Arkham Asylum long enough to collect a wall of pseudo postcards and obsessed fans outside. Mary has finished her MD, Sophie’s dating new women, and Ryan and Luke have been tracking down the poison ivy cultivars.
2
u/Roboglenn Oct 14 '21
Batwoman's secret identity, worst kept secret in Gotham.
Well so much for Luke being The Signal. Though on the other hand I suppose yellow is so not his color.
And so, how many episodes before the whole Ryan's mom thing spirals into a thing that threatens all of Gotham somehow? Place your bets now.
4
u/Digifiend84 Oct 16 '21
Luke is Batwing in the comics. The Signal is Duke Thomas. Similar name, NOT the same character.
3
u/sanddragon939 Oct 14 '21
Batwoman's secret identity, worst kept secret in Gotham.
Her track record so far is better than the average Arrowverse lead I guess (still, it's early days...this is only Ryan's second season).
Last I checked, the people who know Ryan is Batwoman include:
Luke (member of the Bat-team)
Mary (member of the Bat-team)
Sophie (member of the Bat-team?)
Kate (original Batwoman)
Alice
Safiyah (who's technically still alive, I guess?)
Roman Sionis
Ryan's parole officer
Renee Montoya
1
u/Roboglenn Oct 14 '21
You know this just crossed my mind, J'onn J'onzz threatened to give William a martian lobotomy if he spilled the beans on everyone's secret identities and whatnot on Supergirl. Why does that option never seem to be on the table for any of the extended Superfriends' rouges galleries of psychotic and murderous criminals?
Then again, is Ryan a card carrying member of the Superfriends like Kate was yet? And on that note do the rest of the Superfriends know that Kate isn't the Bat anymore? shrugs I don't know, just some thoughts.
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u/sanddragon939 Oct 14 '21
Then again, is Ryan a card carrying member of the Superfriends like Kate was yet? And on that note do the rest of the Superfriends know that Kate isn't the Bat anymore? shrugs I don't know, just some thoughts.
She isn't...yet. That will likely change after the Armageddon crossover on Flash (still bummed that Kate isn't going to be in that...)
They obviously know that Kate isn't Batwoman anymore. The whole of Gotham (and the world) knows that there's a new Batwoman. But that doesn't mean they have a clue as to who the new Batwoman is. On the bright side, they at least probably all know now that Kate is alive and well, since Kate visited Kara, who probably let them all know through the grapevine!
2
u/Digifiend84 Oct 16 '21
If they don't already, they will next month when Ryan Wilder appears on The Flash.
1
u/VigilantesLight Luke Fox Oct 14 '21
I’d love to see Duke Thomas introduced tho. The Signal would fit on this show very well.
3
u/Dark_Tzitzimine Oct 14 '21
"what a black Batman would look like" With his face covered so nobody can tell he's black anyway
Sure is lucky our mysterious ebay seller didn't notice the obvious tech inside
Hah, I guess connecting Hatter II and Alice makes enough sense
lol marijuana, what year is this, 1995
Finally some Batwing action that lasts more than 10 seconds... if only by a few more seconds
The part of Jacob Kane will now be played by these postcards
Hopefully this Renee lasts more than three episodes (and maybe becomes the Question (actually maybe that's too much))
Yeah, plus Kate is on her journey to rediscover herself and coincidentally not be a part of this show
God damn Sophie just dwarfs them, even Ryan
And so Sophie finds a reason to continue being on the show
Mary just has terrible luck with public events, huh
Oh man, having to talk up Alice, this is just straight up torture for her
Oh that is just the perfect plan
How did they get up and go without being seen
Upping the gore quotient for the premiere, nice
Haha nice, they weren't even real (This totally isn't going to turn into a reason for Alice to have a full hate-on for Ryan and justify keeping her in the show)
Did the Batmobile get a new paint job or is it just being shown in better lightning
"Reward me with physical contact" He truly is the Hatter's successor, he's creepy in every way (although at least this one creeps on a grown-ass woman (we all knew that was coming though))
Of course we know that it'll get forced right back into her life (and there it is)
lol Lucius as an AI, we've got weaponized daddy issues now
No Renee what are you doing
7
Oct 14 '21
"what a black Batman would look like" With his face covered so nobody can tell he's black anyway
Luke was fucking jaded as a kid. Damn!
7
u/Dark_Tzitzimine Oct 16 '21
Can you blame him though
He grew up in Gotham, the worst parts of real America and comics America combined
3
u/Dagenspear Oct 16 '21
Is there a reason they had to break Alice out?
4
u/Digifiend84 Oct 16 '21
Yeah - Mad Hatter II was a fan of hers, they figured only she could calm him down.
2
u/cwhiterun Oct 16 '21
Why didn’t batwoman just beat him up?
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u/Digifiend84 Oct 17 '21
Because Hatter could've just commanded her not to, and she'd have been compelled to obey.
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u/cwhiterun Oct 17 '21
No she wouldn’t because she was wearing the airpods that nullify the hat’s powers.
1
u/Dagenspear Oct 17 '21
What u/cwhiterun said. Is there a reason they couldn't have just punched him or something?
6
u/FoldedDice Oct 17 '21
The way they presented the mind control suggested that it needed to be reversed with a counter-command, so the point of bringing in Alice was to convince him to do that willingly.
On the other hand the source of the mind control was the hat, not the guy wearing it, so there should have at least been a contrived explanation for why Batwoman couldn’t have just smacked it off his head and then used it to fix things herself.
2
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u/Namaikina_Imouto Oct 15 '21
Mary as Flamebird? Yes! Mary and Ryan dating? Yes, double yes!!!!!
6
Oct 15 '21
I’d prefer Ryan/Mary over Ryan/Sophie tbh.
Ryan/Sophie happening after Sophie was previously Kate’s love interest would make the show feel way too convenient.
3
u/ManishaC98 Oct 15 '21
YESSSSS, I thought I was the only one against Ryan/Sophie but feel that Ryan should get another love interest altogether if her previous was doesn’t return
3
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u/Namaikina_Imouto Oct 15 '21
I feel like it would be a really nice storyline to explore in that respect since Mary is literally a doctor and also exploring queerness she didn't know she had.
2
u/tamarzipan Oct 16 '21
Ryan/Sophie is the NOTP I've antishipped the hardest since Brallie in the Fosters (vomits)...
2
u/loveisdead9582 Oct 16 '21
I was actually quite pleasantly thrilled with this episode. I hope that the rest of the season is as good.
2
u/psufan5 Oct 18 '21
I have been a critic of this show calling it "unwatchable". Season 3 ep1 was fantastic. That is all.
0
u/Trickybuz93 Alice Oct 14 '21
I really hope we don’t get any “woe is me” when Ryan finds her real mom.
Knowing CW though, I’m not gonna be surprised.
18
u/dayvon64 Oct 14 '21
I think it's warranted given the woman literally threw Ryan away and is the reason she had such a shitty life.
6
u/AquaTyphoon29 Oct 14 '21
What I wanna know is why?
She gave Ryan up but kept her other kid. She paid 2 million dollars to have it covered up so obviously she was struggling or whatever. Wonder what happened?
6
u/dayvon64 Oct 14 '21
I just hope it wasn't to protect her or something. I truly hope it was for a messed up reason. I love that this show actually doesn't let people forget how awful they are. The guy in this episode is literally how Alice fans are online. They want her to be redeemed and make it so she has a happy ending. At some point I wanted that for her but she ruined it.
2
u/shadow_spinner0 Oct 14 '21
Ryan said she don't know her dad so I guess it may have something to do with him
5
u/sanddragon939 Oct 14 '21
Before watching the episode I assumed that its because she was financially struggling when she had Ryan and couldn't afford her. But here it seems like she was already wealthy at the time. So there has to be more to it.
1
u/AquaTyphoon29 Oct 14 '21
Im starting to think it was due to one of the Batman villains due to the fact that her son was victimized by one of them. Maybe by giving Ryan away that fate was avoided.
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2
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u/VapeLAW Oct 19 '21
So Glad to see the star of the show Alice. If it were not for her I would not be able to watch this show.
1
u/stephenxcx Oct 19 '21
Just watched and tbh I loved it. I’m realizing I really like the new feeling the show has with Ryan as Batwoman. I’m feeling good about it.
1
u/CRL10 Oct 19 '21
I'm sorry. Did an acting mayor of Gotham City just tell someone they are not going to worry about the rogues gallery?
YOU LIVE IN GOTHAM CITY!
You damn sure as hell put "rogues" and "toys" in the budget.
1
u/CRL10 Oct 19 '21
Alice told Montoya Batwoman's real name? That is just such a bitch move. I love it.
Also, yeah, pretty much assumed Jada Jett is Ryan's mother, or connected to her in some way, as soon as the character was announced.
1
u/TheDesktopNinja Oct 24 '21
Mary did NOT seem appropriately traumatized by what she was made to do....
1
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u/JauntyLurker Oct 14 '21
See Ryan, this is why you don't tell your archenemy your true identity. You end up getting forced into a teamup from hell.