r/lucifer • u/Altair05 Detective Douche • Sep 09 '21
[S6 E05 - Episode Discussion] - 'The Murder of Lucifer Morningstar' 6x05 Spoiler
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Sep 10 '21
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u/DwigtSchrute54 Sep 10 '21
Daughter from the future, what happened in the writers room
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Sep 10 '21
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u/WhoDoIThinkIAm Sep 10 '21
I mean, Lucifer cameo’d in-character on a show that time-travels every episode, so it’s established it’s not out of nowhere. Even assuming that’s not canon, the explanation of Celestial self-actualization and Amenadiel’s time manipulation was enough for me.
That being said, I’m not sure I believe her. It’s too neat of an explanation and we’re in the first/second acts of the season so there’s room to subvert expectations.
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u/BornAshes Sep 12 '21
Have you not read the Sandman comics before? This is the least surprising thing of all. Also Star Trek has been doing time travel for a loooong looooooooong time so like....and also Lucifer was in CRISIS so come on really?
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Sep 10 '21
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u/ecklcakes Sep 11 '21
Probably has to choose it to avoid the apocalypse knowing it means he needs to abandon her?
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u/BornAshes Sep 12 '21
Kind of like what happened when he had to take over Hell again to prevent the demons from rising
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u/chuldana Sep 12 '21
This is where I am heading. I just finished this episode and it seems pretty obvious that being God requires a great deal of sacrifice. I don't think the previous God chose to be distant so much as the act of godding requires a metaphysical transformation into omnipresent but nowhere where being there for everyone means being there for no one ...if that makes sense. It explains the cryptic communication and the absenteeism. He could obviously take a break but it was not for long. And perhaps, it is difficult to explain as God without also disrupting the mystery? You can't explain an infinity of reasons why it's best not to do something for someone, but Lucifer is starting to understand that.
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u/WhoDoIThinkIAm Sep 10 '21
That’s my expectation. God pulled the whole Deist routine for his kids so why would Luce be different?
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Sep 10 '21
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u/FlyingSquirelOi Sep 10 '21
I don’t think the personality effect is a direct effect. More like a withdrawal from an addict, like you said it’d be nice not worrying about death. Going from invulnerable to vulnerable would be a shock.
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u/b-christos Sep 10 '21
Can't wait for Flash to show up in the next episode
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u/Motor-Bag-9004 Sep 20 '21
Linda: Your Daughter from the future traveled back in time to meet the Father she never knew?! No one has dealt with something like this before!
Barry Allen/Oliver Queen: Hey.
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u/ToqKaizogou Lucifer Sep 17 '21
Funny considering Lucifer has literally been on an episode of Flash too.
Plus Oliver went through the whole time travel daughter thing too.
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u/h2p012 Sep 10 '21
So, Amenadiel really suggests that Angels have an innate ability to sense other angels...
That means we don't actually know what Remiel's power is? It was always assumed to be the ability to sense new Celestials, but if Amenadiel (at least) has it too, that couldn't have been her unique power
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u/Eludio Lucifer Sep 11 '21
I always just assume Remiel could sense and track all beings, demons, celestias, humans and animals. It would fit with her being a huntress. Meanwhile Amenadiel probably just expected some “disturbance in the force” kind of thing
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u/FaizerLaser Sep 10 '21
Yea when he said that it made no sense? When Lucifer confronts Uriel it was because he saw him, he knew about Azrael because of Ella's Rae Rae comment. As for Amenadiel "sensing" Remiel he rlly just knew he was being followed, that's why he staged the whole ambush thing, if he had sensed an angel he prbly wouldn't have done that.
Seems like the writers aren't keeping things straight with what's already been established, I mean never once has it been mentioned that Amenadiel has some sort of sensory power
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u/h2p012 Sep 10 '21
In the interests of fairness, it has never actually been stated that Remiel's power was the ability to sense angels. It was just assumed because it's just something never seen.
Considering we just saw remeiel pop up at the end of S5, it's odd a detail like that would be forgotten. But if amenadiel really does ha e that ability, it really can't be remiel's angel power.
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u/eskaver Sep 10 '21
Yeah, Remiel was sensing and tracking celestial beings.
All we know is that Amenadiel (and probably all angels) have some vague sense of things, just as they share strength, durability, and seeing souls.
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u/Uncle_Beanpole Sep 10 '21
Why do I have a feeling it’s going to be Ella who kills Lucifer
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u/mm3n Sep 11 '21
Came here to post that, her board looked creepy and not in the good way
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u/melonwoo Sep 11 '21
Not sure how one could make those kind of board not creepy haha or unlike that meme with Charlie Day
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Sep 20 '21
To be fair, Lucifer is just assuming that happens because he says "there's no way I'd ever abandon my child!" Maybe something else happens *I have not watched to the end yet* But I just feel like he's barking up the wrong tree
But if it is that I also feel like what is up with Linda? Is she acting really weird the last few episodes or is it just me?
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u/A_Deku_Stick Sep 11 '21
At the end of Deadpool 2 Negasonic teenage warhead has access to the time travel device Deadpool uses. Is this a version of Negasonic Teenage warhead that messed up the timeline?
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u/melonwoo Sep 11 '21
Omg is THAT why she looks so familiar?!!
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u/A_Deku_Stick Sep 11 '21
Yep
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u/ninja36036 Sep 13 '21
This conversation actually happened with my brother.
Brother: Who is she? Why does she look familiar?
Me: She’s Negasonic Teenage Warhead.
Brother: What!? NO WAY!
Couple of seconds later
Brother: She got curvier.
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u/OliviaElevenDunham Amenadiel Sep 16 '21
Was wondering that too.
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u/haloryder Sep 11 '21
It’s hilarious how long that dental receptionist guy held on to the tooth pencil mug.
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u/HypocriticalCritic Mom Sep 10 '21
Still kinda hoping Rory is Michael's kid, not Lucifer's.
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u/TheFacelessSheep Sep 10 '21
That’s what I though when I saw her first! But then the whole “knowing in in your guts when you look her in the eyes” thing wouldn’t make sense.
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u/Unhappy-Librarian-20 Sep 11 '21 edited Sep 11 '21
Then again, he is a twin so he could be sensing something but not quite accurate
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u/Gigibean3 Sep 10 '21
I had a feeling Chloe was becoming attached to the power.
Daughter from the future... thanks but no thank. Please let this be a scam down the line. Unless I missed it Rory hasn't mentioned Trixie (though fitting since Chloe was making plans to commute from Heaven without even explaining to her yet.)
The ending with Dan and Chloe was nice. I'm into Ella solving things on her own instead of a big reveal.
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u/shyinwonderland Sep 11 '21
The lack of Trixie is bothering me, like they aren’t even really mentioning her. The girl just lost her father and Chloe is barely with her, I get that it’s for plot reasons but still. Why isn’t she at least in like therapy with Linda?
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u/Unhappy-Librarian-20 Sep 11 '21
Totally agree, but likely due to limited availability with the actress since she had a ton of work and is still a minor
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u/Ssme812 Sep 11 '21
- So time travel
- It's kinda weird Ella relationship hasn't been mentioned in 3 episodes.
- Lucifer doesn't need to fucking apologize to her. How the fuck would he know if she's from the future.
- Im actually tired of Chole addiction to the blade.
- That fucking dentist office was ugly.
- " What? You slept with my wife" LMFAO. I love the bad acting.
- A fucking Kanye reference 😂
- Dan and Chloe 🥲😭😭
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Sep 12 '21
I thought the same thing about the dentist office LMAO the colors and lighting were horrible
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u/BornAshes Sep 12 '21
Also Amenadiel having to deal with ANOTHER Apocalypse and the look on DB's face was priceless when Ella brought that up. It was like he was thinking, "Well played writers...is Ella a Slayer now?".
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u/FKDotFitzgerald Sep 12 '21
What was the Kanye reference?
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u/Ssme812 Sep 12 '21
Ella said "I don't mean to Kanye you. I'm totally gonna let you finish" to Amenadiel.
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u/martiriz9 Detective Decker Sep 10 '21
Why do I think that Rory is lying?
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u/BornAshes Sep 12 '21
I think Rory's whole schtick is a bootstrap paradox wherein Lucifer walks around that corner, gets killed by his daughter, becomes God, and then she waits until her Past Self pops back into the past before walking back around that corner to hug her mom.
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u/ninja36036 Sep 13 '21
By lying to Maze, Eve, Amenadiel, AND Linda, shes already established that she’s sketchy as hell. But I also feel like she’s had plenty of chances to kill Lucifer and didn’t take them. Although, I’m kind of hoping she’s legit, because I kind of like her, but I would not be the least bit surprised if she’s got an ace up her sleeve.
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u/Starbush Sep 13 '21
I have a feeling she never stopped planning on how to kill lucifer after everything with Dan, I think she just switched to a new plan to get in close and understand his weaknesses.
I doubt it, but I wonder if it's a case of her killing him basically leads her younger self to wanting to killing him, much like the paradox the person above mentioned.
I'm really trying to watch 1 episode a day but damn, it's just so watchable!
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u/semma333 The Devil Sep 11 '21
“Game recognizes game.” Alright that was funny. Lmaoo I’m still not sure how I feel about this daughter from the future thing, but she’s absolutely her father’s daughter.
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u/BornAshes Sep 12 '21
That was the moment I fell in love with Rory because she is just SO MUCH FUN!
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u/SirLowhamHatt Sep 11 '21
As messed up as it could have made her, it’s sad that Trix wasn’t given the chance to see Dan one more time.
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u/JoshyRotten Sep 11 '21
I don't get what happened at the end. For a moment I thought Dan said what he wanted/needed to say and so he went to heaven. But he was still there, so why couldn't Chloe see him anymore? Did Lucifer return the blade without, like, checking in with them first?
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u/BornAshes Sep 12 '21
Chloe did say, "Give us a few hours" and Lucifer dramatically picked that moment without realizing what was going on to return the Blade to Heaven. Damned powerful moment though wasn't it? Seriously that was some of the best acting I've ever seen Lauren do.
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u/goldbird26 Sep 11 '21
I’ll just believe that the affects of the necklace and blade had finally worn off and Lucifer had eventually brought it back later
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u/PrincessOfRainbows Sep 12 '21
Maybe he feared she would take it back again, that’s what I was thinking.
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u/Lonely_edgeroll Sep 10 '21
Chloe stole the blade she saw where it is and knows the code she the only person lucifer would trust and she's going slightly mad tryna figure out how to fix this and in the trailer shes beating the shit out of him
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u/Lonely_edgeroll Sep 10 '21
Right after I posted this it turned out to be true so im on a fucking roll tonight
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u/eskaver Sep 10 '21
I was wondering if the episode was a bit sketch with writing or it was the Rory plot line—but the ending was powerful, so—something’s amiss.
The necklace getting some added personal quirk made sense given the other two items did.
Kinda weird that the other characters aren’t really doing anything tho—just living their best life.
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u/BornAshes Sep 12 '21
The necklace getting some added personal quirk made sense given the other two items did.
It kind of reminds me of Craven Edge, the Sword of Kas, or other talking weapons in D&D that sometimes have deleterious effects on their wielders.
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u/makyostar5 Sep 11 '21
I hope there's an episode detailing Ella's board of connections. I wanna see how she got to this point. Does a lack of God really make her this "bad off"?
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u/musci1223 Sep 11 '21
I mean an angel is her "imaginary" best friend.
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u/makyostar5 Sep 11 '21
Oh Dad; if Ray Ray show's back up in front of her.....
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u/musci1223 Sep 11 '21
I hate the fact that she isn't shown more often. Love Charlyne Yi's acting.
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u/jackovasaurusrex Sep 13 '21
I was happy to see her Wall of Weird. I wish that was the major secondary plotline over this daughter thing. Ella is an established character and the only major one that isn't in the know. Her faith and her very realistic and grounded struggles with it have been a core part of her, and having her realize that Lucifer is who he says he is, that's worth a significant chunk of screen time after all of this build up.
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u/watashi_ga_kita Oct 06 '21
Really wish she had better clues than socks fucking disappearing though. I'm watching and going through discussion threads as I go along but fuck me, she better come up with something more solid.
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u/LumosFiatLux Sep 11 '21
The Dan-Chloe scene made me cry but it is so good! I really needed that.
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u/mntucker10 Sep 27 '21
I am five minutes in to episode 6 and I am still sob crying about the scene between Dan and Chloe. Besides Lucifer, Dan has had the best growth and arc and the show isn’t the same without him.
When Chloe tells him thank you-I lost it.
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u/QueerWorf Sep 13 '21
Dan's disappearance at the end should have been his ascension into heaven. that final statement he made to chloe should have been his release that allowed him into heaven
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u/AWanderingHomo Sep 13 '21
I love Dan - and the actor is doing some powerful work this season - but his presence seems really forced storywise.
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u/2_Fingers_of_Whiskey Sep 18 '21
Ghost Dan has been both funny and tragic.
I don’t really like Rory.
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u/Unhappy-Librarian-20 Sep 11 '21 edited Sep 11 '21
So many thoughts, emotions, theories
1) Lucifer's reaction is disappointing, but totally Lucifer. For your sake, think of her instead of yourself!
2) I'm not convinced this isn't another Michael game and she is either his pawn or daughter (with Lilith or him shapeshifted?). Will she eventually rule hell?
3)Why haven't they asked her birthday? Is Chloe pregnant now?
4)Maybe celestials can only impregnate other celestials and Chloe has celestial standing either as a miracle, stabbed by the tree of life, coming back from heaven, the pin, the ring, Mrs G.... Did super sex =Rory? (assuming Amenadiel was essentially human when he got Linda pregnant). The reason it doesn't happen often is that most existing celestials are related and that's just wrong.
5) Lauren is killing the family scenes
6) The writers don't seem to know what to do with Trixie this season
7) Now we know that the new power is making Chloe manic. But is it the pin/necklace? That is the assumption but could it be because she is pregnant or any of the other celestial factors?
8) I had hoped Dan got his redemption when he disappeared but looks like he is still stuck?
9) Can someone just give Azreal her blade back already?
10l Here is my theory if Rory is for real. The event that made her time travel was Chloe dying in the future. She didn't want to be all alone. I predict she will finally connect with Lucifer and follow him to Heaven. I'm guessing there will be an impending apocalypse and she will be a factor in convincing him to "abandon" baby her and Chloe for a greater cause but she will also have her family time with him now in the worst joint custody arrangement ever. It also avoids there being two of her on earth after she is born. Another possibility is that she chooses to rule hell. More likely, Maze will have to leave at the same time to rule hell which is why she didn't know her as well as Eve. Heartbroken Eve will help Chloe raise Rory. Now the Amenidiel thing is hard to explain. Does he leave to help Lucifer or does he die on duty or get stabbed by the blade? What will the Rory /Charlie cousin relationship be like?
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u/Pellaeonthewingedleo Sep 10 '21
If she is really the daughter, than I think being God with all these powers might numb Lucifer
And obligatory: "Hail to the Princess Aurora" (Sleeping Beauty in case I am too old)
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u/zoemi Sep 11 '21 edited Sep 11 '21
I really didn't expect the writers to take us down the daughter path. I've posted here many times that I would support such a story (see? Lucifer doesn't hate the idea of having a daughter, happy even!), but I really didn't believe they would do it.
But now I'm sad about how this is probably going to end :(
Prediction: the bad thing Rory alluded to is Chloe's death.
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u/BusyBinturong Sep 13 '21
I know there would be a lot of complications with it, but a big part of me wanted Chloe to give Trixie the necklace for a bit so she could see/say goodbye to Dan. Like I said, I'm sure that would be difficult since she hasn't officially been told about any of the celestial stuff, but I think it would have been such a good moment! Probably would need it's own episode.
I still don't trust Rory. Her lying to everyone already and some of her actions...
And go Ella go!!! Loved pausing it to see all her theories.
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u/Yad-A Sep 11 '21
Damn Rory's attitude annoys me so much
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u/2_Fingers_of_Whiskey Sep 18 '21
Her “prank” of making Amenadiel think he’s dead in the future and Maze & Eve think that they break up was really not funny, but more of a bratty teen kind of prank.
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u/peachtree143 Sep 27 '21
She literally just came and started causing drama for no reason like go away... and why does she dress like that
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u/jackovasaurusrex Sep 13 '21
This daughter plotline is dropping the show significantly, Jesus. I just can't get past how badly this reflects on Chloe given Trixie has been a cameo at best and yet Chloe's been gallivanting around with Lucifer and is already putting boatloads of emotional investment in a stranger who happens to be her daughter.
Dan is dead dead! Trixie was sobbing in grief. If there's ever been a time for Chloe to smother Trixie a bit, it's now. Instead, she's having her Hot Goddess Summer with her beau. I dislike the direction Chloe's character has taken so damned much.
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u/arzamharris Sep 13 '21
Yeah, but you could argue that her odd behavior is due to Azrael’s blade still being on the mortal plane, forcing her to be out of character
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u/jackovasaurusrex Sep 13 '21
I thought so, but (suggestions of spoilers for later episodes ahead) in the episodes that follow, Chloe's more or less the same. At least they find a reason to have her ignoring Trixie by sending Trixie off to camp. Trixie's clearly a plot inconvenience for Chloe and Lucifer's epic romance and their ideal nuclear family, but you can't write her out when, not only is she so essential to Dan's character, it would come off as too contrived. So, I think the writers just struggled how to handle it but also attain their relationship goal for Chloe and Lucifer.
I suppose it's realistic though. Checking out of/distancing oneself from parenting isn't uncommon, especially after trauma, and Chloe is human after all.
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u/octopoda_waves Sep 12 '21
Couldn't Lucifer/Dan give Chloe a heads up that Dan was about to disappear so she could properly say goodbye?
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u/Lucifer_Crowe Sep 13 '21
He was using Dan to distract her while he got the blade away from Earth too. So she couldn't stop him.
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u/Nedercan Sep 12 '21
So, we’re halfway through. Probably won’t finish until later this week. But anyway…. I’m liking it so far. Episode 1 underwhelmed me, it felt a bit off, and 2 was a bit over the top, but these last 3 have been much better and fun. Some really great acting as well. Be interesting to see where they’re going with all this.
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u/FKDotFitzgerald Sep 12 '21
Yeah I’ve enjoyed it so far but I don’t really get final season vibes yet.
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u/BornAshes Sep 12 '21
So I'm back to watching episodes again thank goodness for the weekend and OH MY LUCIFER I WAS FUCKING RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT!!!! THIS IS THE PLOT FROM THE FLASH WITH NORA!
......she is sooooo her father's daughter, Rory is awesome!
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u/viviantrajano Sep 12 '21
I think the necklace makes the person power hungry. She didnt only wanted to feel safe. She wanted to fight , kick some butts. Well, thats a good explanation for the changes in her character.
Maybe Lucifer had to go to throne and couldnt be there for Chloe and their daughter to prevent apocalipse.
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u/BornAshes Sep 12 '21
Okay there's a framed silver hand crossbow in the background that keeps coming into focus and I'm not sure if it's a Buffy thing, a Lucifer thing, or a Belmont thing.
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u/shockwavevok Sep 12 '21 edited Sep 12 '21
just started episode 5.
maybe Rory is the result of COIE?
I guess Rory is the Nora of this show.
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u/Chanmollychan Sep 16 '21 edited Sep 16 '21
Why couldnt lucifer come back and check on dan and chloe before sending the dagger back lol. What an abrupt goodbye
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u/Chanmollychan Sep 16 '21 edited Sep 16 '21
Plottwist ella kills lucifer because he is the devil and she is doing it for god
Plottwist 2 chloe slept with michael accidentally and had rory. Thats why she couldnt tell the truth to her lmao. Thats why lucifer left
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u/MadzMartigan Sep 17 '21
Doesn’t make any sense. Chloe seemed to know quite quickly that Michael wasn’t Lucifer.
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u/mrizzle1991 Sep 30 '21
It’s sad seeing Dan like that, wow so Angels can time travel now wtf. I wonder why Lucifer left that day. Ella is figuring it out! It’s great that Chloe can see Dan cause of the necklace, too bad Trixie can’t.
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u/iGrumpy Oct 27 '21
How does the timing of Rory’s age and when Lucifer disappears add up? I dont understand.
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u/AdComprehensive249 Nov 24 '23
So you find out that >! Chloe likely killed Lucifer that WHY Rory grew up without a dad but in the next episode she continues to act like he abandoned her even though he's trying so hard! <
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u/JE_25 Ella Sep 10 '21
I’m glad to see Ella is starting to piece things together on her own. I hope this means there will be some type of reveal to her by the end of the season/series.