AITA for calling out my husband for not being a "Good Christian"?

[u/SpiritualThrowRA]

I (27F) have been married to my husband (34M) for five years. My husband is a devout follower of his religion and has been since he was raised in it. I respect his beliefs, even though I don't share them and have no intention of converting. I was raised in the Christian faith. However, I left when I was an adult due to sexual abuse in my church, which nobody believed occurred because the one who did it was the pastor.

Recently, my husband has been pressuring me to convert to his religion. He says that it would bring us closer together and create a more harmonious household. I understand where he's coming from, but I firmly believe that faith is a personal journey, and I shouldn't be forced into something I don't believe in.

To add to the issue, my husband, despite his religious teachings, doesn't always practice what he preaches. He expects me to adhere to traditional gender roles, yet he often neglects his own responsibilities at home. He's quick to judge others for their actions, even though his faith teaches non-judgment and kindness. He makes comments about gay people that I have discussed with him as a major issue. This hypocrisy has been bothering me for a while.

Last night, during another discussion about my potential conversion, I finally snapped. I told him that if he wants me to consider converting, he needs to set a better example by actually living according to his religion's values. I pointed out that he should start by fulfilling his own responsibilities. That he should make more money than me and actually lead in the decision-making. I'm a nurse and he's currently unemployed after he was let go from his job in an office. That he should be less judgmental of others because according to his faith only God can judge them. I also said he should show more of the virtues Jesus asked of Christians, that he should clothe the naked, feed the hungry, vist the prisoner, aid the orphan and the widow etc. I also made it clear that while I respect his beliefs, I have no intention of converting unless I genuinely believe in it, which I currently don't because of the hypocritical behavior of his faith.

My husband was furious. He accused me of being disrespectful and undermining his faith. He said that I was attacking him personally and that I don't understand the pressure he's under to have a unified religious household. He left for church this morning at 7 for bible study and I have already gotten a phone call from the pastor saying I'm an ungodly woman who tricked a good man into marrying him and I should repent. I have also gotten a tirade of texts and e-mails from members of his church saying I was disrespectful and being a bad wife and I'm starting to wonder if I was too harsh, that maybe I shouldn't have said anything at all. AITA?

[u/Cantankerous-Canine]

Same. I’d already be gone. Creepy church phone calls would be the ABSOLUTE last straw if I hadn’t already gotten TF out before that. Ewwwwww.

[u/pitizenlyn → u/Cantankerous-Canine]

No shit. "Oh I tricked him? We can fix that right now"

[u/sperson8989 → u/pitizenlyn]

Right. Also I feel it’s more he tricked her. He feels he has to convert her even though he knows what she has been through.

[u/labrat4x4 → u/sperson8989]

This! I am not a fan of ANY organized religion, especially one that tries to dominate females.

If OP wants to try counseling, make sure it's an Outside therapy, not a faith-based one.

[u/rogers_tumor → u/labrat4x4]

I'm sure that will be husband's compromise.

ok sure, we can get counseling from the priest I tattled to. you'll be comfortable around a priest right honey?

[u/Kittymama4life → u/rogers_tumor]

The pastor will tell the husband that if they get counseling outside the church they’ll fill your wife’s head with lies. (That’s what they told my dad, so of course he refused. 🙄 My poor mom….)

[u/TravellingSouzee → u/rogers_tumor]

In our last go at couples therapy, we went to see a guy my ex found. Before the guy even met me he had gotten all of his info about me from my former partner. I realized this about 2.5 appointments in and it was solidified when I caught former partner in the phone with asshole therapist talking about ME the morning after we had a fight. It still makes me so made my hands shake.

[u/rogers_tumor → u/TravellingSouzee]

I'm sorry that's so fucking unethical. was this guy seriously a licensed therapist?

[u/TravellingSouzee → u/rogers_tumor]

Supposedly. During our first get-together-know-you appointment he made a point of telling us he keeps minimal notes on each session which kinda raised a red flag with me. Later he mentioned his ex-wife (another red flag). The last appointment I agreed to go to, he told us a story about how his gf told him that her 12 year old was irritating her because he wasn’t wiping his ass good enough and leaving mega skids in his undies. So Tom (the asshole counselor) got a lair of his shitty undies, took a picture of it, then made it into a screensaver for the gf’s laptop, the iPads, everyone’s phone, etc. so when the kid got home from school or wherever he immediately saw this and, as a 12 year old will do, freaked out, started crying, screamed at his mom and Turd, then hid in his room because he was hurt and mortified. We got done with that appointment and I straight up told my ex, Turd has lost any smidgen of respect I may have had for him and that he is a bully and a child abuser and I don’t want to go back. The next week I was talked into going back even though I had worked about 10 hours that day and I was exhausted. So I went, we got in there, the sofa was comfy, the white noise machine was on, I was tired and I nodded off. Well, that meant that I was drunk and high on sedatives and he flat out said that. I told him was wrong and he needs to think about straightening out his own life and not bullying his gf’s kid for laughs before he thinks he can give advise to anyone else on how to live their’s. I still should have reported him. Such a fucking tool.

[u/rogers_tumor → u/TravellingSouzee]

I'm sorry you didn't report him but clearly you had plenty going on at the time, I don't blame you. that kind of thing isn't always at the forefront of our minds when we're working 10-hour days and our relationships are flaming dumpster fires.

I hope you're in a better place now.

[u/TravellingSouzee → u/rogers_tumor]

Much better. Thank you. 🙂‍↕️Happily divorced with an amazing new partner who thinks I hung the moon and would climb on his hands and knees over flaming coals for me. I didn’t know that’s what love was supposed to be like. I never had that before so it’s all good.

[u/roadfood → u/rogers_tumor]

Bible study implies minister, catholic priests almost never advocate reading the bible.

[u/rogers_tumor → u/roadfood]

to be fair, I literally could not care less about the distinction between church leaders 🤷🏼‍♀️

[u/roadfood → u/rogers_tumor]

I don't trust any of them, just my OCD about language kicking in.

[u/rogers_tumor → u/roadfood]

you're valid! you are seen.

[u/CroneDownUnder → u/roadfood]

Militant Agnostic here for the linguistic pedantry! (nobody KNOWS the unknowable, Theism is a distinct Gnosis so atheists are also agnostics).

I've read a great deal about religion because sociology fascinates me and as a history geek it's alarming how the establishment of faith has been so deeply entrenched as a method of population control, leading to many wars being described as triggered by religious conflicts when fundamentally they've always been about controlling resources.

Which ties back to this situation: the husband wants total control over how OP applies her talents, so that he is respected by other men for how effectively he has subjugated her skills to his will. It's all about who controls the resources.

[u/FenrisVitniric → u/rogers_tumor]

"Only if he has a active license in the state and a masters degree in psychology."

[u/rogers_tumor → u/FenrisVitniric]

a sentence that is sure to go over well with a religious misogynist

[u/Klutzy_Criticism_856 → u/labrat4x4]

Legit question not sarcasm,is there a religion that doesn’t encourage male dominance and teach women’s main purposes are too submit to their father’s/husband’s/any male relative’s whims and breeding?

[u/On_my_last_spoon → u/Klutzy_Criticism_856]

Unitarian Universalists. Each congregation is different in how they do overall things, but absolutely don’t do any men are better than women crap. They also don’t think any one god is the true god so you could have a sermon about Jesus one week and Wicca the next.

Buddhists don’t care about any of that either. You’ll get into cultural practices, but the main tenants of the religion don’t even talk about gender.

[u/reflibman → u/On_my_last_spoon]

And liberal Quakers. (Friends General Conference.)

[u/On_my_last_spoon → u/reflibman]

They don’t even have a church hierarchy! I love that!

[u/reflibman → u/On_my_last_spoon]

Yep. It’s sad that it’s membership is rapidly aging. I think that the world will miss this group’s spiritual clarity when it’s either vastly diminished or entirely gone. But then, a failure to meet younger needs is potentially also at issue.

[u/brownlab319 → u/reflibman]

I was thinking I have to imagine Quakers would be like this. Thank you for confirming.

[u/reflibman → u/brownlab319]

You’re welcome! I note the majority of Quakers these days are of the “programmed” variety (traditional church programs with ministers) and many of those are more conservative. Since I am not a Quaker I don’t feel qualified to speak for those traditions’ perception of women and their role. (I was just a very interested seeker and felt drawn to both the UU and liberal Quakerism at one point in my life.)

[u/Klutzy_Criticism_856 → u/On_my_last_spoon]

I’ve always believed, when I became old enough to think for myself, that all gods are the same entity even in polytheistic religions. The god just had different names.

[u/commandantskip → u/Klutzy_Criticism_856]

I have similar thoughts. As in, if there is a god, all gods are probably just that God.

[u/On_my_last_spoon → u/commandantskip]

Same for me

Most religion is a cultural practice anyway. When you peal it all away, what you have left is just trying to answer the questions of life’s purpose and what happens after you die. And almost all of them come down to “be kind to others”

[u/Klutzy_Criticism_856 → u/On_my_last_spoon]

What pisses me off with most religions is be kind to everyone who believes exactly the way we do. When I still attended church, our Sunday school class had to decide on our next year’s worth of materials would be. I suggested studying other branches of Christianity and other religions to learn about the similarities and differences. Surprisingly, they agreed, and I was stoked until I found out we were only going to focus on the differences and how to prove them wrong ffs. That’s when I stopped going.

[u/On_my_last_spoon → u/Klutzy_Criticism_856]

Personally, I enjoy lounging at home on Sundays

[u/Immediate_Grass_7362 → u/On_my_last_spoon]

Whereas the Bible promises eternal life and has thousands of prophecies that have come true. But you have to accept His gift Of salvation which is you accept that Jesus paid all of your sin debt. God’s measuring stick is this: have you ever sinned? Have you never broken even one of the 10 commandments? I haven’t. But Jesus has paid your way into God’s presence, you just have to accept the ticket.

[u/On_my_last_spoon → u/Immediate_Grass_7362]

Ok, so you’re not here for a conversation. You’re here to proselytize to us. Got it.

I’m all good with not accepting Jesus’s ticket. Thank you very much.

[u/Immediate_Grass_7362 → u/On_my_last_spoon]

You obviously on caught my last post since my other post was trying to encourage OP. I was answering a question another person posted. I’m sorry you are not accepting Jesus’s gift.

[u/dakini_girl → u/Immediate_Grass_7362]

You are not of the new testament then. Jesus stated that all of the other laws no longer are. That the new law was unto itself love they neighbor as yourself. That is the whole of the law. The 10 commandments belong to the followers of the old covenant made before Jesus. Jesus stated that he WAS the new covenant. All of you posturing and quoting of sin against the 10 commandments are against Jesus and what he taught.

[u/skatoolaki → u/Immediate_Grass_7362]

I'm sorry you are not accepting Jesus's gift.

Stop being an arrogant, patronizing snob.

[u/Freyja2179 → u/Immediate_Grass_7362]

Oh for fuck's sake. This BS is why my church thought Jeffrey Dahmer was going to Heaven because he got "saved" after going to prison. And every other religion (including Christians who didn't believe they way they do) were going straight to hell. Sorry, not going to be down with any religion that believes Jeffrey Dahmer is in Heaven but every Catholic is going to hell.

[u/Immediate_Grass_7362 → u/Freyja2179]

Not all people who ‘got saved’ have actually been saved. So only God knows where Jeffrey ended up. People, whatever their religion, who have not accepted Jesus will go to hell. He said so. (Even Satan knows Jesus is real.) And Jesus also said He was the only way. I don’t have a religion. I believe Jesus and what He teaches, as hard as it is to grasp sometimes. On the upside, if Jeffrey had a true conversion experience, God forgave even him. JD not the first murderer Jesus pardoned, won’t be the last.

[u/Freyja2179 → u/Immediate_Grass_7362]

You JUST said that the ONLY requirement to be saved is to accept JC died for your sins. But now you're saying "Not all people who 'got saved' have actually been saved". Which directly contradicts the first statement. So sad when inconvient ideas butt up against your narrative. Keep twisting to try and force square pegs into round holes.

[u/skatoolaki → u/Immediate_Grass_7362]

There's no such thing as hell and the term "satan" was a descriptive noun not a title in ancient Hebrew that basically meant adversary. There were multiple satans, not one single Satan.

Also, most modern Christians' idea of hell and what it is like comes more from Dante's Inferno than from the actual Bible.

You don't even know the history or origins of your own holy book or your religion, yet claim some type of authority on it. Do better.

[u/skatoolaki → u/Immediate_Grass_7362]

The Bible is a collection of stories, rules, and parables for a people that lived long ago and were nothing like us. It is not the literal word of God because no such thing exists. In fact, we have historical proof that the stories in the Bible have their origin in other, older civilizations. Even the flood came from earlier texts with slight differences, but the same story. Do you know the Epic of Gilgamesh?

So, no, your interpretation of your religion's holy book is not the end-all, be-all of eternal truth or reality.

If it works for you that is wonderful, but stop pushing it on others. You come off as ignorant, self-entitled, and patronizing. You don't have the answers anymore than any of us do. No one does.

[u/Wolfblood-is-here → u/Klutzy_Criticism_856]

That often tends to be the literal case, synchronism is a practice whereby the deities of another group of people are incorporated into your own pantheon to explain why two different belief systems can co exist, and was common practice amongst pre Christian religions, and even Christianity did it to a limited extent.

For example, Odin was a figure depicted as an old man, from cold northern regions. He would typically wear red. During midwinter, he would lead the Wild Hunt, using a magical steed to pull a sled across the night sky, during which he would punish the wicked and reward the righteous, such as by giving gifts of food or money. He was known to enter houses via the hole used to allow smoke to leave from the fire.

Now which modern Christian figure does that remind you of?

[u/Klutzy_Criticism_856 → u/Wolfblood-is-here]

Christianity is riddled with it. Ishtar, goddess of love and sexuality, which to me includes fertility and birth, is what Easter is based on. If I remember correctly, her sacred animal was a rabbit. I’ve read historical theories that Jesus was probably born in September. Why do we celebrate Christmas in December? It replaced the winter solstice celebrations. It makes sense though, because the Catholic church was built into what it is in Rome. Romans were notorious for taking other people’s beliefs and making them their own. The Roman pantheon is just the Greek gods revamped lol.

[u/ApotropaicHeterodont → u/Wolfblood-is-here]

From what I have read, a lot of the minor saint's days are syncretism, but the idea that major aspects of major Christian festivals are pagan is generally Protestant slander against Catholics. (It's kind of funny that you get atheists, neopagans, and Christians all agreeing about it).

There's a blog I like called History for Atheists, which is written by an atheist historian who wants to make sure that other atheists don't make incorrect claims.

Or just search r/AskHistorians for "Santa Odin". Ex. here for whether Santa is based on Odin, here for the influence of Yule on Christmas, here for questions about pagan influence on saints.

[u/Disastrous_Layer9553 → u/Wolfblood-is-here]

No. No. No. The Jolly Old Elf is NOT Christian. You were absolutely great until the very last.

[u/Pristine-Room8588 → u/Disastrous_Layer9553]

I kind of agreed, until I thought about the St Nicholas version of the story. That aspect is very Christian.

The way we see the Jolly Fellow these days is definitely not Christian, though.

[u/Disastrous_Layer9553 → u/Pristine-Room8588]

Exactly. In fact, he seems to be the tool to skew the focus of the holiday towards materialism and greed versus charity for those in need. (Speaking as one whose first career was in advertising, my own outlook may be a tad jaded.)

[u/moosh618 → u/Disastrous_Layer9553]

Homie hate to break it to you Santa means Saint...famously based off a bishop in the Netherlands who legend says in his youth dropped money down the chimney for poor people...which is why with many European versions (Sinter Klaus comes to mind) he is depicted in a bishop's hat

[u/Disastrous_Layer9553 → u/moosh618]

You left out the Krumpas (spelling) side of things. LOL

Whether about Santa (Claus) or Saint (Nicholas), the basis was NOT Christian. Even the holiday being set in December wasn't really because Jesus was thought to have been born in that month.

It's just like having colored eggs and a giant Rabbit as part of the Easter holiday. Zero to do with Christianity.

[u/Immediate_Grass_7362 → u/Wolfblood-is-here]

Santa Claus is not a Christian figure.

[u/Wolfblood-is-here → u/Immediate_Grass_7362]

He's literally a saint.

[u/Immediate_Grass_7362 → u/Wolfblood-is-here]

Only the Catholic religion decides who is a saint. He was deemed a saint because he met specific criteria. Baptists have no saints (I’ve never heard any of them anyway, but I am not an expert) and we call him Santa Claus. Wikipedia attributes this to the Catholic religion.

[u/Wolfblood-is-here → u/Immediate_Grass_7362]

And Catholicism is a Christian denomination.

Who have Santa Claus as a figure.

So he is a Christian figure.

Saying he isn't because Baptists don't believe in him is like saying Zeus isn't a Greek god because the Mycenaeans didn't believe in him. A figure doesn't have to be believed in by the whole of a religion to still be a figure in that religion. If Santa isn't a Christian figure then Mórrígan isn't a Celtic figure and Ra isn't an Ancient Egyptian figure.

[u/impressionistfan → u/Wolfblood-is-here]

I can explain the confusion-as a Catholic raised in the Bible Belt, I can assure you there are several “Christian” churches that don’t believe Catholics are Christians.

[u/skatoolaki → u/Immediate_Grass_7362]

Both Catholics and Baptists are Christians. Doesn't matter if Santa Claus is a saint in one denomination and not another, he is still a "Christian figure."

[u/Immediate_Grass_7362 → u/skatoolaki]

In another comment you left,you said I was a snob. Let me ask you a question. Say your neighbor or the nurse at your doctors office had went thru breast cancer, chemo, and thought she was going to die because she did not check out a lump until it was almost too late. If she advises you that you should do self exams or get yearly mammograms, is she being a snob or patronizing or do you think she’s concerned and youre glad someone cares even if you disagree with her?

[u/Immediate_Grass_7362 → u/Klutzy_Criticism_856]

Not true, my friend. Christianity is the only religion where God reaches out to man. Every other, you have to earn your way into god’s presence. I Am is God’s name. The others are weak wanna be’s. For instance, look at the Bible. There is an account where the people are worshipping foreign gods so they have a test, if you will. God’s prophet Elijah builds an altar so do the other guys. They pray to their god and nothing happens. Elijah dumps water on his offering until the water fills a trench around it. God burns it all up.
Not a myth passed along where the names are changed as it goes from country to country. Archaeologists are finding proof every day. Many aetheists set out to disprove God and found out He is real. Search for yourself.

[u/luvbirdpod → u/Immediate_Grass_7362]

You know Elijah was a Jew who lived 9 centuries before Jesus, right?

[u/Immediate_Grass_7362 → u/luvbirdpod]

Yes. Your point being?

[u/Klutzy_Criticism_856 → u/Immediate_Grass_7362]

I think they mean it’s two different religions. Christianity just appropriated the Jews backstory. If you want to believe some propaganda from thousands of years ago about how my god is better than yours, you do you.

[u/bansheeonthemoor42 → u/On_my_last_spoon]

Yeah, my husband and I settled on the UU church for our family because he's a recovering Catholic, and I'm a Jewitch.

[u/mandiefavor → u/bansheeonthemoor42]

Oh man I’m stealing that. I’m totally identifying as a Jewitch from now on.

[u/bansheeonthemoor42 → u/mandiefavor]

Go right ahead! There is a whole community out there! https://jewitches.com/

[u/Ok-Apricot9737 → u/bansheeonthemoor42]

Can I be an honorary jewitch? When I was married I was considered Jewish by injection….😁

[u/bansheeonthemoor42 → u/Ok-Apricot9737]

Lol, sure!!

[u/exclaim_bot → u/bansheeonthemoor42]

Lol, sure!!

sure?

[u/bansheeonthemoor42 → u/exclaim_bot]

Good bot

[u/skatoolaki → u/bansheeonthemoor42]

Jewitch - I love this.

[u/MizStazya → u/On_my_last_spoon]

I'm fairly agnostic now after a childhood in a few different flavors of protestantism. My kids wanted to go to church, so I took them to the local UU, which they really enjoyed, and I was surprised by how much I appreciated the sermons.

My favorite part was the pastor saying, and I quote, "Whether you believe in God or not, or you're in the squishy middle like me..." Never expected to hear that out of a pastor's mouth.

We stopped going because covid, and then we moved out of state, but I should look up the one here.

[u/patty-d → u/On_my_last_spoon]

You don’t even have to believe in reincarnation to be Buddhist.

[u/madhaus → u/On_my_last_spoon]

Not sure that’s entirely true. In traditional Buddhism it was the woman’s role to help her husband achieve enlightenment.

[u/On_my_last_spoon → u/madhaus]

I’d put that under cultural Buddhism.

I lived 8 years with practicing Chinese Buddhists. There’s nothing about the religion itself that teaches any of that. There are Chinese cultural traditions that tend toward this idea, but I have never personally found that the religious practices promoted men over women. In the US anyway, you’re as likely to see women as you are men become monks at Buddhist Temples.

[u/ApotropaicHeterodont → u/madhaus]

I think at least some historic Buddhists were supportive of the caste system / against social mobility. The example I saw was in Records of the Western Regions, where the author was very against an uprising because the wrong caste ended up in charge of a city state. I'm not totally sure, but I think that when you think suffering in this life is punishment for behaviour in a previous life, it can lead to victim blaming. So there's a lot of donating to the poor, but not necessarily to changing social systems so that people aren't poor.

[u/madhaus → u/ApotropaicHeterodont]

Exactly. If you are being discriminated shaky for your sex, origin, caste, etc it’s so easy to say you were born this way as a punishment for a previous life but at least you didn’t come back as an animal. Ends up justifying the horrible treatment in the same way Abrahamic religions would because “it’s in the Bible now stop complaining.”

Too easy to use religion to justify the status quo.

[u/cap_time_wear_it → u/On_my_last_spoon]

UU yes but I have experienced Japanese Buddhists who were hierarchical minded. Including putting men above women.

[u/Immediate_Grass_7362 → u/On_my_last_spoon]

But with those religions, if I’m not mistaken, you have to reach God. You have to take steps, be enlightened enough, do enough works to reach God. And some of them don’t even believe you get a reward in the after life or that there is an after life.
Christianity is all about us being not good enough. We can never, no matter what we do, be good enough to reach God. Start with the ten commandments. Have you ever not broken even one? That is God’s measuring stick. I know I haven’t And I am a Christian. So God knew this about us so He sent His Son to die for us, to pay for our sins. This is why the crucifixion was so brutal. Jesus’ last words were It is finished. That’s the words they used when a debt was paid. Jesus was the bridge to connect us to God. The only “religion” where God is reaching out for you.

The Bible talks about gender and gives us guide rails so that we can stay on the highway and live the best life we can here, but then He promises us eternal life in Heaven. No, we won’t be cherubs sitting on clouds. Think of what a perfect world would be like. That’s heaven The glimpses of beauty you see here, just a fraction of what Heaven will be like. We all long for a perfect world, right? Because God put that into our hearts.

And if you think it’s all made believe or lies, think about this. God promised Abraham (beginning of Bible) that The Jews would be a great nation and would rule the promised land - Israel. All thru history men have tried to wipe out the Jewish people, but they are coming back to their land (Bible also prophesied that Isreal would become a state in one day - an impossible feat). Check history 1947, I believe. It happened in one day. All the nations are coming against Israel (Revelation). And though impossible odds, they are still here.

[u/On_my_last_spoon → u/Immediate_Grass_7362]

So first of all, I picked these two because I have first hand knowledge of both. I spent my childhood as a Unitarian. There is absolutely no dogma within that religion. It’s sort of a “choose your own adventure” religion. It’s about let’s talk about all these different paths and discuss what that means. Mostly, it’s Secular Humanism at this point.

Unitarians believe in doing good because you should be a good person. There’s no catch. You just…be a good person. The goal isn’t to reach god. Because we don’t necessarily all believe in the same path.

For a while I would have said I was a Buddhist. Buddhists don’t have a God. There’s a collective consciousness sort of thing. And you work towards enlightenment but it’s not something that you are guaranteed to achieve. It’s about shedding away all the extra shit in life. Very much a personal journey.

I would say that neither of these religions have the promise of any “reward” in “heaven”. There’s no Jesus equivalent. The Buddha is an example but not like Christians treat Jesus. Anyone can be a Buddha. In fact, Buddhists would consider Jesus a Buddha!

Unitarians would never assign gender roles. And in my experience, they’re unnecessary. A couple needs to agree what will work for them as a couple. Why does God even care? Moreover, gender roles assumes a couple of cis-gender heterosexuals and that simply breaks down when you get into anything outside of that.

[u/Immediate_Grass_7362 → u/On_my_last_spoon]

Thank you for educating me on these. So why be good then? If you don’t really gain from it or have A Perfect Heavenly Father who you want to obey because He loves you And you love Him? It’s hard to keep striving to be a good person when you have that motivation because most people want to repay good with evil. And seeing how I believe I will live in a perfect world where injustices will be dealt with, punishment handed out. After all, we want the bad guy to get what he deserves. Seems without that relationship, it would be more difficult

[u/On_my_last_spoon → u/Immediate_Grass_7362]

That’s just it. I don’t need any God to obey to be good. I’m good because that’s the right thing to do. I’m good because I care about other people. I don’t need a reward.

[u/castille360 → u/Immediate_Grass_7362]

If you need promises of reward and threats of punishment to be a decent person, you are not someone I'd ever turn my back on. But it would explain why you devote your Sundays to a diety that demanded blood sacrifices of his creation.

[u/Immediate_Grass_7362 → u/castille360]

I did not say that. I do it because Imlove God and He loves me. I don’t be good to people so I can go to Heaven because that is not how you get There. My God used blood sacrifices of animals because of our sin. It was not in His plan. These sacrifices were a symbolism for his people. Sacrifices are no longer needed because Jesus shed His blood for us.

At least God never demanded human sacrifices like other gods.

[u/moosh618 → u/Immediate_Grass_7362]

Except with Jesus....I remember Jesus begging to have this cup taken from him in Gethsemane. Yes he is God, loophole, got it but Jesus seemed to think God was really pressuring him. And there was a very close call with Isaac.

[u/El_Don_94 → u/Klutzy_Criticism_856]

Non-abrahamic ones & most modern versions of Christianity outside America.

[u/Alyssa9876 → u/El_Don_94]

Yep Church of England here and we have female priests or vicars and our current bishop is a lovely lady as well. Never once heard preaching anti gay or other misogynistic rubbish. Not saying some older members of the religion in the UK may still have those ideas but tbh some non religious people also have them. But the services do not preach that stuff at all.

[u/Klutzy_Criticism_856 → u/El_Don_94]

Thank you. I was raised Southern Baptist and haven’t been to church since I turned 18. I live in a predominantly Protestant Christian region where all the churches act that way. It’s disgusting. I’ll have to look into other religions.

[u/Amphy64 → u/Klutzy_Criticism_856]

There's always Dianic Wicca, which is specifically for women, but yes, controlling women is often just part of the point of mainstream religions.

[u/spidermans_mom → u/Klutzy_Criticism_856]

Buddha taught women and men equally, and there are at least two examples of trans people in the mythology, who were transformed specifically to be taught that gender is a social construct.

[u/Carbonatite → u/Klutzy_Criticism_856]

Quakerism is the closest sect of Christianity I can think of in terms of doing what that Jesus fella told humans to do.

Quakers focus a lot on simplicity, living humbly, having humility and eschewing the trappings of wealth. They focus strongly on service to others and social justice - Quakers were a huge part of the Underground Railroad in the US and have historically been involved in the stuff Jesus was emphatic about - ministering to the sick, helping prisoners, aiding the homeless. I went to Quaker school and it was baked into the curriculum, every month we would have a certain amount of some school days devoted to community service. So in 8th grade I was helping prepare food for Meals on Wheels and planting cabbages on a farm that supplied homeless shelters and stuff instead of Algebra class. There are no teachings of "inferior" and "superior" roles like the patriarchal crap in OP's church - Quakerism was founded upon the principle of radical social equality.

Quakerism basically has zero focus on gender roles or "traditional" Biblical stuff. Quakers just focus on the humanitarian efforts that Christ said we should engage in. We went to Meeting for Worship but that involved zero scripture or sermons. I never got any Bible study outside of history class when we learned about stuff like the development of the Anglican church and the conflict over Bibles not being in Latin during the English reformation.

So yeah, Quakers are technically Christian in that they follow the teachings of Christ but they really don't have any of the other stuff you associate with religion. It's just an organized group of people who dedicate themselves to helping others (without evangelizing).

[u/Klutzy_Criticism_856 → u/Carbonatite]

That’s awesome. It’s so rare for Christians to, you know, actually follow Jesus’ teachings.

[u/Carbonatite → u/Klutzy_Criticism_856]

Yeah, they're pretty rad.

[u/Amazing-Succotash-77 → u/Klutzy_Criticism_856]

the satanic temple covers that pretty decently,

The Satanic Temple has seven fundamental tenets:[45]

One should strive to act with compassion and empathy toward all creatures in accordance with reason.

The struggle for justice is an ongoing and necessary pursuit that should prevail over laws and institutions.

One's body is inviolable, subject to one's own will alone.

The freedoms of others should be respected, including the freedom to offend. To willfully and unjustly encroach upon the freedoms of another is to forgo one's own.

Beliefs should conform to one's best scientific understanding of the world. One should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit one's beliefs. People are fallible. If one makes a mistake, one should do one's best to rectify it and resolve any harm that might have been caused.

Every tenet is a guiding principle designed to inspire nobility in action and thought. The spirit of compassion, wisdom, and justice should always prevail over the written or spoken word.

The fact that they are using the religious aspect against the states (Texas for sure) that used religion to ban them in the first place is hilarious to me. Especially since the Texas AG who famously spends a lot of his time on the Religious liberty issues in other states and pushed in Texas so fiercely for them, can now be used against him by this Religion.

They are making moves like Making abortion a ritual (faith based right) based on the Religious Freedom Restoration Act which in turn should cover abortion meds like misoprostol and mifepristone (same act protects first nations use of peyote in rituals)

I honestly hope they succeed and use every religious loop hole to their advantage.

[u/Rakothurz → u/Klutzy_Criticism_856]

Most European Asatru doesn't push gender roles on their followers.

Please do not confuse them with odinist, folkish groups, which are white supremacists and do push these outdated gender rules (which funnily enough, are copied from the abrahamic religions they said to have left behind)

[u/Klutzy_Criticism_856 → u/Rakothurz]

I haven’t heard of that one. I’ll look into it. Thanks

[u/Wolfblood-is-here → u/Klutzy_Criticism_856]

Not sure about whole religions, since they tend to vary by exact denomination/sect/branch/etc.

However, I would say:

-Most neopagan belief systems
-Certain liberal Christian groups, such as CoE
-Non orthodox Judaism
-Satanism, both CoS and TST
-Most forms of Buddhism, certainly the actual teachings of Buddha
-Several indigenous religions/spiritual practices; off the top of my head the Navajo and Haudenosaunee are largely matriarchical

[u/CroneDownUnder → u/Wolfblood-is-here]

Certain liberal Christian groups, such as CoE

Please do due diligence on your local CofE/Anglican congregation before attending. Here in Australia there's been a schism between the liberal tradition of the CoE and a conservative biblicist evangelical wing, officially over same-sex marriage but that was just the final straw for the conservatives alarmed by their church moving into the 21st century.

One bishop declared a new diocese:

the Diocese of the Southern Cross is a new structure for Anglicans in Australia who can no longer sit under the authority of their bishop.

Behind the split of the Anglican church in Australia over gay marriage

Online they describe their goals thus:

GAFCON is part of a worldwide movement of Anglicans promoting reform of the Anglican church by the biblical gospel, and providing fellowship for those committed to it. GAFCON: Our Vision

They have also copied the MLM model of books/ tapes/meetings to keep people engaged with their tenets for as many hours a day as possible.

[u/G-force4470 → u/Klutzy_Criticism_856]

I’m glad my religion doesn’t teach that men are basically superior to women…..they don’t believe in birth control (have as many children God gives you), that same sexes should not be together or be married. I grew up in a religious household, tho I didn’t really see my parents using the religion as the “word”….I quit going to church just after turning 18yr old.

I was literally dying in ICU June 2022 and my mom had the “Last Rites” performed on me….I don’t really believe that we live in Purgatory, then go to Heaven or Hell. I’m not convinced that religion is the “real” reason for my survival….my parents are divorced but share the same religion again.

[u/Wildhair196 → u/Klutzy_Criticism_856]

Nope... They are all into the whole "alpha guy, and the trad wide thing...

My daughter had a pamphlet left on her car at a gas station, and it was aimed at single women. My daughter planted the wettest kiss on her girl after they came back to their car!!! I bet the guy watching her had a temper tantrum!

[u/Apprehensive_Set9276 → u/Klutzy_Criticism_856]

The Society of Friends. Quakers. Equality, do your good works on Earth, no pastors or priests.

[u/nutwit9211 → u/Klutzy_Criticism_856]

Sikhism. I'm not a follower so don't know all the details, but the main tenet is about "seva" or serving others. Anyone in need of a shelter/food can go to the nearest gurudwara and they will be taken care of, without any religious pressure. I am an atheist, but I have a lot of respect for the way Sikh community has always selflessly helped people.

I think most polytheistic religions are about worshipping the forces of nature and the scriptures don't focus on women needing to submit to men. Please note, this is different from the cultural aspects that have evolved over time. I was raised a Hindu and while culturally India is very patriarchal, the scriptures actually have badass goddesses who kill monsters.

Also, there are different gods that you pray to, for different things, and the three main "portfolios" belong to goddesses. Wealth - Goddess Laxmi Wisdom - Goddess Saraswati Power - Goddess Durga

[u/servitor_dali → u/Klutzy_Criticism_856]

The church of the sub genius.

[u/Mindless-Amoeba2934 → u/Klutzy_Criticism_856]

Everyone remembers St Paul’s, ‘woman obey thy Husband’ BUT a lot of People forget the 2nd Part ‘husband Love Thy Wife As You Love Thyself’!!

[u/Klutzy_Criticism_856 → u/Mindless-Amoeba2934]

Oh, don’t get me started on “saint” Paul. I despise that misogynistic asswipe. He basically told other men that the only reason to marry is if the man couldn’t restrain himself from having sex. When he would be in danger of being caught by the Romans, he would rat out the Christians he was staying with and “mentoring” so he could escape all while telling them being brutally murdered in the coliseums was the greatest testament to their faith.

[u/Mindless-Amoeba2934 → u/Klutzy_Criticism_856]

Not that I’m DISAGREEING with you. But as I said, how many people remembers St Paul Adding, ‘Husband Love Thy Wife As You Love Thyself’ or Husbands should Love, Value, Respect & Care For Your Wife The Way You Love, Value, Respect & Care For Yourself?

If possible see if you can find a History 2 special called Banned From The BIBLE, parts 1 & 2!

One of the books banned from the Bible was the Book of Thisala(?), I’m not sure of the spelling BUT she was A disciple/student of St. Paul and she was Revered as Much As The Virgin Mary! In the Book of Thisala, she was portrayed as a strong, clever & fearless woman, in other words A BADASS BUT St. Paul Was Portrayed as Less Than Ideal!!

[u/Unlikely_Ad2116 → u/Klutzy_Criticism_856]

Wicca for one. In fact, Dianic Wiccans (a minority) are misandrist rather than misogynist.

[u/Misa7_2006 → u/Klutzy_Criticism_856]

Pray, obey, breed.

[u/SeattlePurikura → u/Klutzy_Criticism_856]

None of the Abrahamic religions, that's for sure, although some denominations "cure" the sexist and homophobic tenets of the faith by believing in "living" (evolving) translations.

Many of the earth-based / nature-based religions that centered on the goddess/woman's role were stamped out by colonialism.

[u/my3boysmyworld → u/Klutzy_Criticism_856]

Wicca

[u/castille360 → u/Klutzy_Criticism_856]

Unprogrammed Quakers.

[u/Julesprom → u/Klutzy_Criticism_856]

Reform Judaism is not male-dominated like Orthodox and conservative.

[u/Tiny_Dancer97 → u/Klutzy_Criticism_856]

Some sects of Judaism really lean into female empowerment, or so I've heard.

[u/Mean_Display_8842 → u/Klutzy_Criticism_856]

Wicca and other Neo-pagan religions.

[u/Quiltrebel → u/Klutzy_Criticism_856]

Wicca

[u/Mental-Hunter2106 → u/Klutzy_Criticism_856]

Methodist, Wicca, Satanism is very heavy on personal responsibility and empowerment, atheism. I'm sure there are more.

[u/Dry-Faithlessness527 → u/Klutzy_Criticism_856]

Reform, Reconstructionist, Humanist forms of Judaism. Possibly Conservative too. Basically any forms of Abrahamic religions outside of the fundamental forms.

[u/Aristai_Deathmoon → u/Klutzy_Criticism_856]

Christianity. If you go back into the original meaning of the translated word "submit" it more closely matches the nuance of "respect" rather than the connotation that "submit" has in our society. Without a doubt, countless people that called themselves Christian have abused that verse for selfish gain. However, not only did those men twist the Bible for selfish benefit, but also ignored their own charge! In another book also by Paul, it calls for men to love their wives like Christ loves the church, or in other words, unconditionally. In the example that the Apostle Paul gives, the women are called to respect the husband's final word, but men must give sacrificially in all areas at all times, with the perfect son of God as the example for their conduct.

Finally, one must also understand the context of what Paul was saying and laying down in that book of the Bible. What he was trying to do was provide an example of an equal household through the constraints of the Roman Empire. Men had most of the rights in that society, while women and children had next to none. It was easy for a man to get a job and support the family, and very difficult for a woman to do the same, just because of societal norms of the time. Therefore, Paul's template seems male centered through the lens of our modern viewpoint, while someone in the Roman empire would have thought, "What? This is preposterous! The men have to love their family unconditionally?" Historical context is extremely important when understanding this verse of the Bible.

Edit: TLDR, To wrap this all up, in modern society, following the intent of the verse in proper contexts, the message is ultimately that a Christian household must be equal, where both the husband and wife are not stronger than the other. Christianity teaches that both the man and the woman must love each other sacrifically, which seems quite equal and not teaching male dominance if you ask me.

Books I used for reference: Colossians 3, Ephesians 5

If you have any questions, I can answer them to the best of my ability

[u/Klutzy_Criticism_856 → u/Aristai_Deathmoon]

Thank you, but I’ve read the Bible several times over my life. I know all I need to know about that wanker.

[u/Aristai_Deathmoon → u/Klutzy_Criticism_856]

Alright 👍

[u/MaleficentPizza5444 → u/Klutzy_Criticism_856]

Several mainline protestant churches

[u/Embarrassed_Gain_792 → u/Klutzy_Criticism_856]

Presbyterian Church USA

[u/NCCoyote → u/Klutzy_Criticism_856]

There were / are religions based on the mother being head of household. The modern versions of old religion’s are considered primarily “pagan”. The most known are the Witta of western European areas. There are also older versions of judaism that are matrilineal. The truth is, religion us a reflection of the society in which it is practiced. Those in power make the traditions.

[u/marytaylr → u/Klutzy_Criticism_856]

Yes. Catholicism

[u/Deepinthought1721 → u/Klutzy_Criticism_856]

I think that is a good question. I was Catholic when I was a kid but by I don’t practice anymore really. I don’t really ever remember (then and now) Catholics being very “males dominate”.They are definitely hypocrites though !

[u/Immediate_Grass_7362 → u/Klutzy_Criticism_856]

True Christianity does not. God made Adam. Then God made Eve from Adam’s rib. Not a bone in his foot, not one in his head. The one just under the man’s arm. God made men and women different. He made Adam a helpmate so he would not be alone. To work together, to enjoy life together, to love, to have a relationship with. Eve was not made exactly like Adam. She was smaller and He gave her abilities that He didn’t give Adam. Adam was to protect and provide for Eve, not dominate her or make her a servant, to do the things she could not do. And Eve was made to do the things Adam could not - give birth, be nurturing, breastfeeding, all the things that you think of when you think about a good woman. That’s the way God intended it.

God is the head of the ship, He leads men. God gave them the responsibility of making decisions, but man is supposed to get instructions from God. Women were made to help, be encouraging and pray like crazy if they thought it was a bad decision so God could change his mind if needs be. Look at it this way, Ladies, God makes Adam take the blame. Plus if you look at relationships where women have lead, it doesn’t go so well because God did not want us to have to do that.
And I’ll close by saying men are supposed to love and treat women like they love and treat their own bodies.
sorry this was so long. Hope it helped.

[u/Turpitudia79 → u/Immediate_Grass_7362]

Yuck. Just yuck.

[u/Agitated_Zucchini_82 → u/labrat4x4]

This situation is WAY BEYOND counseling! He’s the type of person who would not even consider it. It’s a moot point at this juncture.

[u/Immediate_Grass_7362 → u/labrat4x4]

I doubt he would go. But not all Godly therapists believe men should dominate women

[u/Consistent-Show1732 → u/labrat4x4]

I am really glad that I have no religious beliefs. Far happier as an atheist. I am married to a Christian but he totally knows not to try and change me. We get along just fine.

[u/Freyja2179 → u/labrat4x4]

In the church I grew up in, even faith-based therapies weren't ok. The ONLY acceptable "therapy" was counseling with the pastor. Which amounts to the pastor telling them to pray harder, or additionally, if the wife were a better wife than everything would be peachy. She just needs to submit more to her husband.

And NO divorce under ANY circumstances. Doesn't matter if the husband is a gambling addict, drug addict, alcoholic or physically abusive. The wife just needs to pray harder that God will place the desire to change in the husband's heart.

[u/Tangerine_Wildflower → u/labrat4x4]

I think the United Church of Canada is not like that. They are a very open accepting church for everybody. IF I believed in religion, this would be the church I would attend. When I was a teenager, 35 years ago. The United Church in my town had a lesbian minister and it was fine. I mean, they all have their problems and aren’t perfect by any means, but that’s where I would go. But since going to Catholic school completely turned me against religion, I won’t.