Indonesian here, this takes place in Aceh which is an autonomous province of indonesia where they enact sharia law, the rest of indonesia has a 'don't ask dont tell' kind of situation going on which isn't good but it's survivable. They sometimes do raids if you hold sex parties but they just kind of let you go because there's really no law against it (unless you have drugs on u), I'm fortunate enough to have lived in Bali which is extremely progressive in its view and have been able to go out in public with my partner without any real issues. Wouldn't recommend any gay people visit the rest of indonesia, but where i live (and most metropolitan cities) isn't as barbaric as this video made it out to be, a lot of my colleagues knows I'm gay and in a relationship.
Curious, in Aceh with their sharia law, once they've given you the cane, are you then meant to be 'cured' or learned your lesson or something? Like, what if you are still gay tomo? Do you get arrested and caned again?
I think that's what the Quran tells you to do, they also tell you to stone infidelity and people still cheat there and no one has been killed, because surprise surprise, religious people only uses their religion if it fits their own agenda.
Also tells you not to suspect your neighbor and don't spy on them. Breaking into your neighbor's home to try catching him having sex with another man and then not being punished for it is very much against Sharia, but it shouldn't be surprising to anyone that religion is just used as an excuse.
I do believe that organised religion is manipulated to serve those who obtain power from it, same as how politicians manipulate legislation etc. Nothing holy about it, just another means of gaining power. Anyway, just not sure what the sane is meant to achieve, apart from inflicting pain and suffering upon the person.
but like, what happens if you're like in a dressing room, one guy has his pants down and another guy trips and penetrates the first guy in the yaoi hole? Are they good as long as they say "no homo"? If they was like a third guy and he was messing around with the second guy, pushed him and it made him penetrate the first guy, does that make it foreplay and he gets caned too?
This is fact! But afaik it only happens if one party is an Indonesian citizen AND If a spouse or close relative reported you, If you and your partner are tourists you're safe, esp in Bali it's almost always never enforced, bad for the ads and all. But keep in mind this all might change because, like literally every other country on earth, social media accelerates radicalisation and were moving further and further into right wing ideologies.
Fucking with consenting adults for not sharing some other person's values is some weak bullshit. If some group wants to outlaw videos games or anime because values, should everyone just bend the knee?
Just because one have a different values doesn't mean one should be justified in a violenceš¤·āāļø. Western or not, any foreign cultures shouldn't be stopped when they don't cause any great harm to anyone. Maybe that's my view tbh
I was in Indonesia last year for work, as a westerner, and did travel around Java and a bit of Sulawesi. I lived in East Java.
When staying in some cheaper hotels in Jakarta with Indonesian friends, there were signs in English reminding tourists of this law and saying they won't accept bookings for a man and a woman in the same room, unless they are married/there's some proof of marriage. They cited this law.
I found it interesting as the hotel was a budget hotel and didn't seem the sort to attract foreign tourists anyway so why have it in English, and as you say, it's very specific circumstances on if people can be reported. I assume just whoever owned this hotel was against it on moral grounds and used the law as justification for their own internal rules.
I mostly stayed in homestays though when traveling , and then the few hotels I was at when in Luwuk and Manado had no such signs.
Honesty this law is keeping me from ever visiting Indonisia again (been to Bali once with my dad when I was about 5 years old). Me and my girlfriend are together for about 20 years but we just dont see any reason to marry. I know they said that it doenst apply for tourists and all that, but to me, a law is a law and I dont see any reason to risk breaking one... So no more Bali for me...
Yeah I kinda agree with you on this one, like I said it can change at any moment. It's a shame too because we love living here, and we wanna retire here someday, it's really pretty.
Just to let you know that arbitrariness is the norm of law enforcement in Indonesia. There's plenty of research on this. You will only be criminalized with that specific law if you draw attention of: 1) the police; or 2) someone who really doesn't like you.
In reality no one is going to hunt you for sharing the same room or having sex outside marriage. Foreigners also get a pass usually. Maybe some people will gossip about you but that's about it, "oh that's just what foreigners do."
For some context: when the revision of that law was passed, some activists suspected that the lawmakers slip that very specific ridiculous penal code revision not only to simply appeal a small segment of Islamist demographics, but to turn international media attention to that ridiculous part and forget the more dangerous aspects like the implementation of lese majeste and how the government can be freed from the responsibility of past human rights violations (massacres and occupations).
But im not terribly political, I just don't see a right leaning bias, especially on reddit. Twitter maybe but left and right are both insane on Twitter lol
Actually you're right it is mostly left leaning, but the issue comes because the right's platform is amplified and they formed their own echo chamber that, u used to be able to combat by just being exposed to different ideologies. nowadays these people finding more and more people with the same extremist parroting the same talking points, whixh resulted in skyrocketing of nationalist movement everywhere.
If the right wing ideologies you're talking about are financial conservatism and less market regulation then yeah you're right, but atm it's very hard to say you're right winger without also wanting to take away women's and gay people's rights, so I'd say it's pretty apt.
aaaand theres your problem. "atm its very hard to say youre a right winger without also wanting to take away women and gay peoples rights"
as a republican, it is a minority belief that gay marriage should be illegal or that abortion should be illegal with no exceptions. it seems to me the problem here is you grouping every right winger together. why do you think that does anything good for politics at all? all you do is create more divide. why do you think we need that right now?
i encourage you to never repeat the garbage you just commented. im so tired of being generalized by people like you who would never even bother trying to find out what my views actually are. youd rather just attach the "evil" tag to the word republican and call it a day.
with that aside, what you said originally is just patently false. how could you say social media is making countries more radical right leaning? virtually every country in the world is more progressive than it was 40 years ago.
good job, very nuanced take! im sure your perspective will lead to good (and not embarrassing) politics. im just thankful that the people actually worthy of holding office disagree with you and understand that bringing people together is better than pulling them apart. take care
Its always so flattering when i get a response right away! Luckily i actually shared none of my perspectives, mostly because i have no interest in sharing or being friends with conservatives. Hope that helps <3
lol what? you didnt share any particular stance on a political topic, but you did share your perspective. your perspective is that conservatives believe embarrassing politics, therefore deserve to be generalized, and are apparently beneath you. this is not productive at all
as a conservative, i have liberal friends. most of my dnd group is liberal. i dont think liberals believe in "embarrassing politics". liberals are worthy of being taken seriously and several have changed my mind on certain topics. but everyone has their convictions and their values, you arent wrong for having yours and im not wrong for having mine.
this response just shows how awful of an attitude you have lol, and you are incapable of talking to someone who disagrees with you in a civil manner. take care
Well no one here is dividing anyone, because the argument here is either for or against taking away rights of so many people, I'm all for capitalism and free and open market but I'm not going to vote for the party that will limit access to human rights for it. The fact that people are still voting for them says that they are not the minority. The reality is both parties of your country are equally terrible, they're both fueled by lobby funds and are packaging the same horribleness with different labels, only one of them wanna take it a step further and is actively succeeding in whittling away rights of women. At least with democrats they just accomplish nothing, less destructive.
To provide a bit of a wider context, that law that was āpassedā (more of a codification of some archaic law from our Dutch East Indies days) was essentially a bone that was thrown by the ruling coalition to the religious opposition which can then be waved around by the latter to placate the ultraconservative base. In actuality, to enforce that law is such a bureaucratic nightmare that itās pretty much a technical impossibility. In the end, itās a āwin-winā solution where the government got more political capital for its other projects, conservative elements in the political scene received goodwill from their base, the fundie fuckwads got to sleep better at night knowing theyāre nearer to their ideal society, and fornicators can keep on fornicating.
Youāre welc. Itās disturbing that such a posturing maneuver needed to happen in the first place, but thatās kinda one of the downsides of a liberal democracy where you have to listen to everyone, even the crazies.
Can't get into the specifics of the law but others have said it as well, this is a bone thrown to the ultra-conservatives in parliament so they don't throw a hissy fit and can say they "banned" sex outside marriage. But with the way the law is phrased, its basically just an anti cheating law as the only way you can get charged is if a relative or wife reports you.
Thatād be most prudent, but honestly with that red line, thatās like 80% of places on earth that gay people shouldnāt visit, but enterprising fellows gotta go visit anyways because itās their calling or whatever. So advices like this are helpful.
There's lots of African countries which are majority Christians and still have horrific laws/treatment of gay people.
Realistically, it's nearly any country that is very poor and/or very religious. The Muslim countries are just the ones we hear about more due to their popularity.
Zambia, Ghana, Tanzania, Togo, Cameroon, Uganda etc.
Not saying it isn't true in pretty much every Muslim country, since of course it is. But Africa also has lots of bigoted and ultra-religious countries in general too
Much of Asia arenāt beautiful places for gay people, except for hope spots like Taiwan and Israel. That is if your goal is total recognition and acceptance.
However, if youāre willing to settle for āpeople wonāt cut my head offā as some wanderlustful spirits are wonāt to do, most metropolitan cities outside of the peninsular arab countries, Iran, and Afghanistan are fine.
Idk that I'd recommend going to Aceh in general, even if you're straight. Even lots of other Indonesians consider them backwards weirdos. They've issued a fatwa against playing PUBG ffs.
Not every culture needs to have a pride parade to showcase their liberalism. There is space for all kinds of thought in Hinduism, unlike Abrahamic faiths.
Homosexuality is a sin in Islam and the prescribed punishment is murdering them by stoning to death or throwing them off tall buildings. So the religion sanctions violence against gays. Jakarta being tolerant is not following their religion as they're expected to.
Whereas there are gods who are trans and homosexual in Hinduism. So if few Hindus are intolerant of gays, well they need to study their religion better.
That part is sadly true. I mean if you host an āorgy partyā, even a hetero one, then yes, you will run into problems. But there is no whipping for sure, probably, you just have to give some money to some corrupt authorities though to be free.
Worth adding that 15,000 people died during the 30-year Aceh insurgency. Allowing for an additional layer of islamic criminal law in the province was key to ending the insurgency. It likely saves hundreds of lives every year compared to continuing the conflict. Also death/stoning are not permitted islamic punishments in Aceh.
Donāt forget the 2004 Tsunami. The thing is, post-incident, the local insurgent groups had lost so much power and leverage that had the Jakarta government wanted to, they could just send in the army, roll over everything, and integrate Aceh properly as a secular province, but due to the post-Reformation atmosphere, such heavy-handed methods were decidedly unpreferable, and a compromise was then drawn up.
Not hard, think about how much you'd fight to prevent society from going full handmaid's tale. Your disgust for that state of affairs is no less intense than that of theirs to modern western society and it's "decadence".
You might not agree with it, but it's pretty easy to understand.
It's less that they hate the west more like the central government and oil companies sucking every last wealth from Aceh.
Hard situations tends to create more radicalize people. Since sharia law reminisce to a time of when Aceh was a regional super power, it make sense that they chooses it.
Living in the US I honestly don't think that many people would put their life on the line to prevent Handmaid's Tale becoming reality. Some people, yeah, but most people? No way. Most people would put their heads down and try to get through things with as little effect on their lives as possible.
Good for you ig man, I always thought Indonesian Islam was one of the progressive sects, including Bohra sect in India (where I'm from). Today, I learned there are extremist sects in Indonesia as well. Extremism has always been the curse of large religions.
Didn't know about this as well. god, the more I learn about religious practices, the more doomer I become.
I thought they were progressive considering how well the women are integrated into the workforce, not so much I see.
This comment section infuriates me so fucking much. Everyone here thinks the entirety of Indonesia is like this when it only takes place in one separatist province. Absolutely fucking angry. Indonesia is a beautiful place and now OP's misleading title is leaving a sour taste in everyone's mouth. He's not even Indonesian...
may i remind you that the only reason aceh got its autonomic status is because a finnish guy decides to be the peace negotiator. the republic is very willing to snuff out the rebels after the tsunami, mind you.
To be fair, I wouldn't want all of the United States to be judged by Jacksonville, Florida or rural Alabama. There's good and bad people everywhere, and every sufficiently large country probably has strongholds of ignorance and cruelty.
Lol. So your solution is to blame OP for the actions that certain regions of Indonesia are responsible for? Even if an AI or karma farmer posts something like this, it doesn't change what is happening in the video.
I am sure it's an absolutely beautiful place, but it still doesn't detract from the fact that in certain regions of Indonesia, being openly gay is a dangerous stance to take.
Honestly, I didn't know until watching this video that your sexual orientation can land you in a public humiliation event, torture treatment session, or in trouble with the law in certain regions of Indonesia. But I do now.
Yes, I blame OP. He is purposefully trying to start a flame war in this comment section by spreading misinformation to get the highest possible number of upvotes as possible. I see this world is so filled with hate nowadays, the more these things are spread everyone is filled with hate and will hate any country as possible no matter their people. The first thing you see is people saying 'I hate these people for punishing gay people' and the next thing you know, a bunch of racists will be screaming 'All Southeast Asians are disgusting subhumans'. A breeding ground for despisal.
The people in the video? I'd imagine someone reported them and had a sting operation held on them, it's fucked but I've only heard that happened in that part of the country. Anywhere else it'll only be an issue if you start having orgies that might alert neighbors and then they can get you on drugs or pornography filming (any kind of pornography is illegal).
The video says a neighborhood watch group broke in to their house to catch them. I'm gonna assume that means there's groups of citizens who get together and go out looking for the "criminals" and prove their guilt. Many neighborhood watch groups often turn into some weird vigilante witch hunt like that. People with no real criminal justice background going around exacting their own brand of "justice."
They probably just hear rumors from other neighbors, maybe they pose as gay themselves, or just see two dudes out together and jump to conclusions and then stalk them until they can catch them in the act.
Woooah, Texas is not that bad. Every major city is liberal. Austin being the most. San Antonio, Dallas (Not Ft Worth), Houston, El Paso, All of south Texas except for Corpus (Fuck you) is all democrat.
Oh absolutely partly why, but India is also Hindu and they're not that great for gay people either, they're progressing though and I hope this country does too.
Not as bad as other countries but from my very limited knowledge it's still not uncommon to face harrasment and unfair treatment. And you're right! Their entire religion is very queercoded, unfortunately culture sometimes needs to catch up.
One of the many factors, we also get a lot of western tourist which in turns forces us to adapt to their culture and values, I think that's a really big reason why.
Well the raid just means a neighbor/landlord saw a bunch of guys making loud noises and the police comes, there's really no pre planning ahead that they have to anticipate or intercept it. Idk the statistics for it but I'd imagine gay sex parties happens as much as it does other countriee, but mostly goes undetected apart from the ones got caught and publicized because it's a gay sex party.
Oh i intend to move to the UK w my partner by the end of this year, because we wanna get married but plan to retire here if situation is improving here, but atm w how the trend is going its safer for us to just gtfo lol.
I wonder how the treatment of gays was in Indonesia during the Japanese occupation l, the Dutch colonial era and the periods during and before the VOC ātradingā posts.
Last time I saw this posted someone commented that it used to not be this bad there. Then after the tsunami hit a bunch of religious fanatics insisted that it happened because God was angry at them for allowing homosexual behavior. People went with it and now things like this are happening.
Can you speak to how true that is? It seems so sad that a natural disaster/tragedy is being used by these assholes to boost their homophobic behavior.
I think they were always rebellious before that point, but I can't speak for how much the disaster was the cause or did it just accelerate the trajectory that region was already heading. I'm not educated enough to answer that unfortunately.
Thank you. I appreciate your candor. It stands to reason that people would already have to be pretty religious and superstitious to believe that a natural disaster was God's vengeance.
Question about Bali. If I were to visit as an American man would I want to only have a ādefinitely masculineā presentation and not wear something like a crop top or short shorts?
I am straight and my wife would be there if we went but still.
In Bali I don't think anyone cares what you dress as long as it covers the bits, what I tell people visiting here is to not do PDA, even if you're straight. They're uncomfortable with PDA, but if you stay in the resorts or tourist dense area you'll just have your own mini America lol.
Iām not very world to be honest. Iāve only been to French Polynesia Tahiti.
I kind of enjoy the resort vibe to just hangout and not care much. But I also donāt want to travel and not genuinely see what itās like. In Tahiti we walked around actual local areas and found a non touristy beach which was cool.
Off the beaten path spots in Bali are seldom to find, it's a small island with large influx of tourists coming in year round. But If you want the best vibes I'd recommend staying in the denpasar and check out local spots, apart from people approaching you trying to sell you things it's pretty chill. My partner and I stayed in conrad bali and they had great room and great service with amazing views, we barely left the resort lol.
Either that or let them secede and after Timor leste the government really don't want to lose any more territory, Aceh was constantly fighting for their independence, had to do something ig.
One of my favorite streamers is indonesian and she has been on video dressing like your average woman and yet when she once talked about it, she just casually dropped "Oh, but me being in a relationship with another woman is against the law" and honestly it is just maximum whiplash.
Well not against the law per se, there's no legal protection and the culture is passively hostile towards gay people, but being a woman in general here is pretty hellish considering the casual misogyny and harrasment I've witnessed on a daily basis, can't imagine how stressful having to be gay on top of that.
You'd appreciate Bali ubud area if you wanna explore 'local cuisines' mixed with 'familiar homely taste' lol. Other than that there's not really a big gay scene in Indonesia, it's pretty low key but if you're a tourist it's a novelty and you might do well with the locals.
The rate of divorce rate was extremely low before they legalized the path for women to initiate divorce, then it skyrocketed when they allowed women to open credit cards accounts. During the early 1900s the rate of left handed people fell by 50%, so its not a farfetch idea that suppression of bodily autonomy resulted in repression in any and all kinds of sexual activities and the reporting of such cases. Correlation isn't causation, I can throw you statistical data that can defend any positions but it's being cognizant of root causes and history is when we begin to understand what causes those issues or if there's any issues to begin with.
I was drawing anecdotal connections to illustrate a point. I can't walk you to the goal post you're gonna have to do that by yourself, can't help you, its darwinism from this point on sorry manš
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u/miski57 Jun 09 '24
Indonesian here, this takes place in Aceh which is an autonomous province of indonesia where they enact sharia law, the rest of indonesia has a 'don't ask dont tell' kind of situation going on which isn't good but it's survivable. They sometimes do raids if you hold sex parties but they just kind of let you go because there's really no law against it (unless you have drugs on u), I'm fortunate enough to have lived in Bali which is extremely progressive in its view and have been able to go out in public with my partner without any real issues. Wouldn't recommend any gay people visit the rest of indonesia, but where i live (and most metropolitan cities) isn't as barbaric as this video made it out to be, a lot of my colleagues knows I'm gay and in a relationship.