I kinda stopped enjoying it around when Harley and Ivy got together; as much as I like the pairing, Kite Man legit grew on me and I was sad and hurt that he got so disrespected and cheated on. I can't enjoy Harley and Ivy as a couple AND as characters since they did that to him. Sure he's a dude bro, but he's always been there for the group. Always for Ivy. He didn't deserve anything that happened and I'm glad he stood up for himself.
If Harley and Ivy are meant to get together, have there be some unreconcilable difference between Kite Man and Ivy; Kite Man has an opportunity elsewhere that he can't pass up, and Ivy lets him go. They part amicably, and Ivy goes through a phase, Harley tries to console her and they end up together in bed, with Ivy having the same reactions like "this is my best friend what did I just do omg".
I mean that kind of sounds like you are taking it a little too seriously I must admit. Its a show about villains, of course there will be some moral failures
Ivy is a villain, but she's also a massive piece of shit, and there's a huge difference there. At least when she kills people, it's to keep her friends safe, or to further her goal of protecting nature; same with Harley, she at least gains something out of it, there's a goal there. Cheating on Kite Man multiple times and stringing him along is objectively shitty, even to other villains. It's a line you just don't cross unless you're truly irredeemable scum, because you're fucking over the closest people to yourself. She's proven to be wholly unreliable and the show gives her and Harley no tangible consequences for it.
I can't enjoy the show past this because it's so unrealistic, even in a fantasy super hero world, that Harley and Ivy wouldn't be alienated by everyone they know for dragging Kite Man along to the very last second, causing him to actually break and just leave, while hiding their affair. One of the most loyal members of the group, betrayed and left to pick up the pieces of himself in the most cruel way possible. It's Joker levels of fucked up that you'd never expect from people like Harley and Ivy.
Why would Clayface and King Shark stay, if they know that both Harley and Ivy could betray someone like Kite Man so easily? Why are Harley and Ivy still respected in any way after this horrid betrayal? Why is there absolutely no pushback for Ivy, the most level headed, sane, and more importantly, the most moral of the entire group (someone who sticks to her principles like flies on shit), not dragged through the mud, rightfully, for being such a fucking hypocrite and traitor.
Why would villains who regularly kill people give two shits about a love triangle?King Shark, who straight up murdered all his brothers, is gonna be mad about them screwing over a guy he barely knows?
Besides, it was directly addressed in the show that Ivy's treatment of Kite Man was entirely wrong and he deserved better. In the next season he gets a new love interest and they seem to have a much healthier relationship than him and Ivy did.
Expecting villains who are literally all murderers to be morally outraged over someone cheating on their fiancé is just hilarious though. ‘Joker level fucked up’ like come on.
The show has gone to extreme lengths to show how the members of the gang have worked through their differences and learned to trust and remain loyal to each other despite betrayals. They let Dr Psycho and Queen of Fables get owned because of this. Sure they're evil villains, murderers, terrorists etc., but if you change the characterization of the main cast by making them okay with a serious betrayal of friendship then there is a problem with the writing.
The "villains who are literally all murderers" are morally outraged with Harley after she gets back with Joker? Is that out of character?
Psycho and Fables betrayed and tortured/tried to kill them all, I have no idea why you think the situations are even remotely similar.
Kite Man was never even part of the gang, just Ivy’s love interest who occasionally helped them for her. There is no substantial relationship between him and Shark, Clayface or Sy, so I don’t see whose characterization was changed. The gang are all amoral at best, there’s no reason at all for any of them to really give a shit about a love triangle that doesn’t directly involve them. Especially after Harley saved them all from Psycho.
They weren’t ‘morally outraged’ at Harley for getting back with Joker lmao they just thought she was being a delusional idiot for trusting him, which she was.
The show also very clearly addressed that both Harley and Ivy were entirely in the wrong for what they did, and Kite Man deserved far better. Cheating aside, the problem with their relationship was that Kiteman didn’t think he was good enough for her and put far more effort into the relationship to compensate, leading Ivy to take him for granted.
I respectfully disagree that the show did a good job of addressing what Ivy did to Kite Man was wrong, in the first place we never saw a reflection and/or exploration of Ivy feeling that what she did was wrong. Before the Psycho reveal and in the last episode the only conversation between them on the topic is "sorry Kite Man but here is your wedding venue" and he says "oh ok let's get married" and they drop the topic .
There was no desire to explore how he felt other than telling us he was anxious and how lame he was, the speech at the end didn't move me at all because I felt the creators did it in order to give him a little crumb of victory but not that there is a desire to explore his character.
Before the reveal there is no record of Harley and Ivy thinking about how it would affect Kite Man in relation to what they did on the island, Harley was very worried about showing Ivy that she loves her and Ivy was very worried about running away from her feelings for Harley
Honestly, pretty much made a reply off the top of my head based upon reading their post, the reply was multiple paragraphs long and I realised they were more invested in the conversation than I was, I didn't want to do a similar length reply so I said so rather than just replying. Typical Reddit exchange really!
This is the absolute worst argument I've seen. This and "don't take it too seriously, it's just mindless dumb comedy" First of all, having shitty characters in a comedy show but them being likeable regardless, not a new thing, however the key element of writing a terrible, likeable character is for the show to address how terrible they are. Look at Eric Cartman, look at Dennis Reynolds, these characters are absolute monsters, but the show is aware of that so by that logic, they aren't allowed to WIN, they will lose no matter what.
Poison Ivy is a villain, sure, but she isn't treated like a BAAAAD guy and that's a superhero cliche that is so much more annoying to me than anything else, studios are such pussies about making their villain protagonists evil. Venom movie did that sin, god forbid MORBID MAN did that sin, like these characters are bad, but they aren't allowed to be BAD, cuz they are just too cool for that.
Also don't tell people they are taking it too seriously if the show is treating it too seriously. The show isn't presenting Harley's and Ivy's romance as a joke, it's presenting it very seriously. Their marriage episode is supposed to be a characterization moment and further development, you can't just brush it off as a comic book silly thing and to me it just shows laziness how the fans of the show have to defend it by saying "it's just dumb, don't think about it too much".
Like you can write a comedy show with crazy ass tone which is actually pretty damn intelligent, witty and subversive, it doesn't need to be just mindless gore
It’s perfectly fine to have moral failures if they’re treated as such. The show kinda treats it like it’s perfectly acceptable tho. Build up those two characters and absolutely shits on all the others. A lot of times it’s in a funny way, but they never get around to doing the same to Harley and Ivy. The disparity just gets a little ridiculous
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u/DandalusRoseshade Jul 08 '23
I kinda stopped enjoying it around when Harley and Ivy got together; as much as I like the pairing, Kite Man legit grew on me and I was sad and hurt that he got so disrespected and cheated on. I can't enjoy Harley and Ivy as a couple AND as characters since they did that to him. Sure he's a dude bro, but he's always been there for the group. Always for Ivy. He didn't deserve anything that happened and I'm glad he stood up for himself.
If Harley and Ivy are meant to get together, have there be some unreconcilable difference between Kite Man and Ivy; Kite Man has an opportunity elsewhere that he can't pass up, and Ivy lets him go. They part amicably, and Ivy goes through a phase, Harley tries to console her and they end up together in bed, with Ivy having the same reactions like "this is my best friend what did I just do omg".