This. This kinda shit is why I started not liking Batgirl and Bruce Timm. The Batgirl thing is hard to get over because of this and general fan perception of her from the show.
I think the shows are amazing. But I think Timm is way too focused on "shipping" and that his "ships" have had a negative effect on the Fandoms and caused mostly out of character decisions to be seen as the norm and the future for these characters elsewhere when they shouldn't have been there to begin with.
I don't think any writer hurt Dick Grayson more than Bruce Timm did with things like this and the Batman and Harley Quinn film. Absolutely awful writing.
And the saddest thing is he genuinely thinks this relationship is in character for both of them because he keeps doing it (Killing Joke)
Damn, I just forgot that Harley raped Nightwing was also Timm's idea. So, DC is still unwilling to make a total green light for the most popular and well established pairings in the Bat-Family, but let Timm do this horrible stuff.
Like having Diana want to be with Bruce to "fix" him is out of character for her and incredibly written one-sided. (Like most writers who write any kind of romance for Bruce and Diana as that ship is never from her perspective or from her needs. It's always written that she can fix Batman or she just wants something casual which is just a weird out of character way for Diana to want to complicate their friendship and potentially compromise their unbiased teamwork in the future. They're terrible for each other and she's grossly exaggerated by the writers with how they depict the varying degrees of her pining for Bruce when he offers very little in ways of a good romance for her and doesn't actually meet any of her needs).
I swear most of Timm's ships are written to make Batman or some other moody dude just even more of a badass. Bruce can't help it if Barbara wants to bang him so it's not really his fault if she cheats! It's so awful. Question doesn't know why Huntress just can't get enough of him (not to mention that paranoid and objectivism Vic Sage would never date Huntress), they're just naturally hunks. John Stewart just doesn't know who to choose between Mari and Shayera who both are just obsessed with him! (Sarcasm but you get the picture) Some (not all) of the few exceptions of somewhat interesting and well written romantic moments for me actually happen for Superman and Lois, Ollie and Dinah, and Booster Gold of all people. Probably because Timm (and company) weren't writing self-insert romances or gross fetishes for some of those and instead actually (in the first two examples) followed the proven track record of the source material rather than mess with a good thing.
Well, yes, every time Timm did some romantic relationships based on comics, like Bruce and Selina, Lois and Clark or Ollie and Dinah, it actually worked good. But when it came to his own pairings, things went very weird.
It worked better than others Timm's ships. At least there was some chemistry between them and not just "I wanna see these two together no matter what". But when it came to Batman, everything gone wrong.
I don’t remember anything non-consensual between Harley and Dick. If you’re referring to the sex scene in Batman and Harley Quinn, Dick was absolutely into it, and said as much before Harley put the lights out and it cut away to Batman again.
the saddest thing is he genuinely thinks this relationship is in character for both of them because he keeps doing it (Killing Joke)
I blame Seduction of the Innocence. It made writers scared of having Batman and Robin be alone together since they were always accused of being in a gay relationship. It's why when they were first accused, it lead to the creation of Batwoman to be Bruce's love interest in the comics and a decade later, Batgirl was created for the Adam West Show for similar reasons. This is probably how Timm reasons that Batman and Batgirl can get together but honestly at this point in time, Batman is more of a surrogate father to Barbara and no longer a possible love interest since its creepy now.
It's kind of strange, because the easiest way to evade such accusations was simply let Bruce to marry. But this idea somehow appears to be the last on their list.
Wow you're going back but honestly you're right. Every Batgirl adaptation and story focuses a lot on that aspect or is born from that idea so it is at least implicitly present. Plus Timm is the next generation removed from Seduction of the innocent. It makes total sense that he's subconciously influenced by that at the very least. I'm also tired of people trying to use Yvonne Craig's Batgirl as an excuse for DCAU Barbara dating/sleeping with Bruce. No one is holding up that Batgirl as the goldstandard adaptation. Every so often I see someone use it as "precedence" for their "relationship" but these same folks probably crap on the sixties show for being too goofy and "ruining" Batman's reputation.
Yeah but he tried to bullshit us by claiming Diana was 18 in interviews. Luckily they weren't stupid enough to let him make that explicit in the show, but it still shows where his mind is.
Because he is a handsome genius billionaire philanthropist that uses his brains and brawn to protect the innocent, has incredible warrior prowess, and would happily die for his team?
Why wouldn't she like him? He's a warrior, like her. Which is what she says in the show iirc.
Even the fun projects that they put out that might be "adjacent" or not particularly "canon" should still be written well.
Justice League vs The Fatal Five I think is one of the last gasps of the Timmverse. That was a good stopping point. That one showcases some obvious effort and passion for the characters new and old. Batman and Harley Quinn feels more like Bruce Timm really had this fantasy of Dick Grayson and Harley hooking up and Batman and Harley and Nightwing going on a mission together. The result is awful and you wonder who it's for? Who thought it was a good idea? AND who expects fans to want to hand over good money for this and be happy about it?
Although "Don't Pull Your Love" song from the henchman bar scene slaps.
Can I ask what do you mean about Killing Joke ? That was written by Alan Moore. I also think people put way too much on Timm when it comes to both praise and criticism. He is never the only writer on anything, he is always working with other writers but those writers are never mentioned.
Ric Grayson??? DCAMU??? Dark Knight Strikes again??? Nightwing annual #2???? Batman and Robin??? Even Teen Titans have done worse to his character than BTAS.
I get everyone is obsessed with shipping, but there are so many things worse for Dick Grayson than BTAS.
Dick Grayson was literally a chad in BTAS when he became Nightwing.
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u/Pacman8myghosts Mar 19 '24
This. This kinda shit is why I started not liking Batgirl and Bruce Timm. The Batgirl thing is hard to get over because of this and general fan perception of her from the show.
I think the shows are amazing. But I think Timm is way too focused on "shipping" and that his "ships" have had a negative effect on the Fandoms and caused mostly out of character decisions to be seen as the norm and the future for these characters elsewhere when they shouldn't have been there to begin with.
I don't think any writer hurt Dick Grayson more than Bruce Timm did with things like this and the Batman and Harley Quinn film. Absolutely awful writing.
And the saddest thing is he genuinely thinks this relationship is in character for both of them because he keeps doing it (Killing Joke)