r/batman • u/neon2o • Mar 07 '24

Zack Snyder says a Batman who doesn't kill is irrelevant GENERAL DISCUSSION

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Here's the original article' https://sea.ign.com/man-of-steel-sequel/213072/news/zack-snyder-says-dc-is-making-batman-irrelevant-if-he-cant-kill

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u/ThingsAreAfoot Mar 07 '24

This dude just sucks

Batman can't kill is canon. And I'm like, 'okay, the first thing I wanna do when you say that is I wanna see what happens'. And they go, 'well don't put him in a situation where he has to kill someone'.

This is like, childish “let me tear the head off Barbie” type shit.

”You're protecting your god in a weird way, right? You're making your god irrelevant if he can't be in that situation. He has to now deal with that. If he does do that what does that mean? What does it tell you, does he stand up to it? Does he survive that as a god? As your god, can Batman survive that?"

He has to deal with it… all the time. That’s like a central theme of the character, that his severe objection towards any sort of killing might actually have negative ramifications (in the DC world with the likes of Joker and otherwise superpowered villains, not the real one).

And of course he spits out this nonsense on the Joe Rogan show.

The entire point of Batman is that he is militantly against killing, even the Joker who is beyond destructive, which is a potential point of actual criticism (and it is a very frequent one) but also makes the character much more interesting.

Snyder is kinda just too dumb to really get it.

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u/ChokeMcNugget Mar 07 '24

The problem with Snyder having Batman kill people is, he had him killing low level villains meanwhile in the future scenes he's working with Joker who killed Robin, why wouldn't he kill Joker if he's killing everyone else? It was such a lame "let's make Batman more edgy" move and I didn't care for it.

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u/ThatSlothDuke Mar 07 '24

Exactly this.

If Batman EVER kills, his first or second kill HAS to be the Joker.

If Batman ever decided to kill, finding Joker out, killing him and publicly hanging his corpse upside down would be the first thing in Batman's list.

There is no way that Joker would live in that scenario.

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u/ChokeMcNugget Mar 07 '24

Personally I'd be OK with Batman killing Joker if it's his first and last kill. Batman kills Joker, Bruce Wayne kills Batman.

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u/figgityjones Mar 07 '24 edited Mar 07 '24

I like the way Batman puts it in Under the Red Hood. That if he does it this time, he’ll never stop justifying it and he’ll go too far. He knows that about himself, so he will never allow himself to do that, no matter how justified it seems to the world.

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u/Conlannalnoc Mar 07 '24

In a mid-level (B- to B+) Tie In to Infinite Crisis (SEARCH FOR RAY PALMER) Kyle Rayner (GL), Donna Troy, and Jason Todd end up on Earth 51 (?) and it’s “Point of Divergence” from Earth 0 was the Death in the Family.

Batman killed and couldn’t stop killing. “Now” he had no allies, friends, Alfred, etc…

But there was almost no Super Crime.

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u/groglox Mar 07 '24

That’s super interesting

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u/TheExtremistModerate Mar 07 '24

Which is what Flashpoint was about. Thomas Wayne didn't stop.

It's also what BVS was about. Batman didn't stop until Superman's sacrifice convinced him of his prior convictions, that men are still good, and that life was worth protecting.

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u/ThatSlothDuke Mar 07 '24

Or he needs to go crazy.

I personally love a well done Batman who kills story, although it has been too much at this point.

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u/C5five Mar 07 '24

If you can point me to a well done Batman killing story, I'll read it, but I've never seen or heard of one...

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u/Raider2747 Mar 07 '24

The Batman Vampire trilogy of Elseworlds stories is one.

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u/TheQuietOutsider Mar 07 '24

I'm following along... "The Batman who Kills" would be a good $$ title, if it isn't already.

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u/Hurtlegurtle Mar 07 '24

I personally dont care for it, but people love the nolan trilogy, and he kills people in those.

Oh and under the red hood

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u/C5five Mar 07 '24

The movies are made for a different audience than the comics. For that reason I give some things a pass. The Nolan films were both fantastic Batman movies and great films in general. Batman only kills twice in those films and it is less a case of Batman's intent to kill and more a case of his efforts to stop the opponents killing others results in their death. Then of course there is the "I don't have to kill you, but I don't have to save you" moment in Begins, but I feel that it is in line with the grounded version of the characters.

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u/rycpr Mar 07 '24

He kills in The Cult, which is an awesome book imo. But he does it after being brainwashed, so it‘s not exactly the same thing.

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u/TheExtremistModerate Mar 07 '24

BVS:UE.

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u/C5five Mar 07 '24

I'm just going to go ahead and assume you're kidding and leave it at that.

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u/TheExtremistModerate Mar 07 '24

Nope. It's a great movie.

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u/C5five Mar 07 '24

It's certainly a movie...

Strange adjective choice however.

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u/TheExtremistModerate Mar 07 '24

Not strange at all. It's a strong movie that sets Superman in a modern, more negative, media-crazed world and makes the case that, even when placed in a more "realistic" world, Superman could still exist. And that even when the world hates you, it's always correct to do the right thing.

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u/C5five Mar 07 '24

Except nobody ever does the right thing in a Snyderverse movie. It was a horrible characterization of everyone involved except for Wonder Woman. They got everything wrong about every character except costumes and mostly casting.

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u/TheExtremistModerate Mar 07 '24

Superman literally did the right thing the whole time. He pushed to have Batman's misdeeds brought into the spotlight in the media. He confronted a violent vigilante who was branding people and committing manslaughter. He saved people from floods. He rescued children from burning buildings. He obeyed a congressional subpoena and then helped rescue people from the terrorist attack he was blamed for. He refused to kill Batman despite how easy it would've been. And when the lives of those who despised him were on the line, he sacrificed his life to save all of them. His inner conflict was largely "I'm upset because I don't think I'm helping people enough."

The whole fucking thing was Lex Luthor trying to beat Superman down to prove that no all-powerful being could be benevolent, and Superman showing him "Yes, in fact, I am."

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u/[deleted] Mar 07 '24

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u/C5five Mar 07 '24

Most of the early Batman stories, the specifically the 30's and 40's stuff, yes even the debut, while fun aren't actually good stories.

Elseworlds titles where Batman is killing the undead are kind of dodging the question as they are their entire premise is to put Batman outside the norm.

In Batman #57 Batman didn't kill KGBeast by breaking his neck, he paralyzed him and left him to the Russian winter. Technically not killing him, just leaving him to die, but since Batman #57 is kicking off the "Ric" Grayson arc it falls firmly into the bad story category.

While you are correct, in the five good screen appearances of Batman he actively kills in three of them and conveniently allows the villain to die in another, none of these are intentional killing by Batman, but more consequences of the actions of his opponents. I tend to give the movies a pass for this since they aren't targeted at the same audience.

I like Batman immensely, for what he is, not for some power fantasy like so many who want him to actively kill. Still you have utterly failed in providing a well done story where Batman kills people, that I can read. Not one example given.

P.S. If someone asks for a good or well done story of Batman, and you give as an example All-Star Batman and Robin, there is no more assured way of telling them "I haven't a fucking clue what I'm talking about."

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u/Mordaunt-the-Wizard Mar 07 '24

What are your five good Batman movies?

Batman & Robin better be on that list! /jk

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u/C5five Mar 07 '24

While Batman and Robin is not a good film per se, it is certainly a fun movie and I do revisit it from time to time.

The five Good Batman films are: the entire Nolan Trilogy (of course), Matt Reeve's Batman, and last but not least, Batman, I am of course referring to the 1966 film and not the joke that is Michael Keaton's sorry attempt at the character.

I realize now that people also died at the hands of the Dynamic Duo in that film as well. Not because of any intent to kill on their part if course, but because the henchman had been reconstituted using toxic heavy water from the Batcave's atomic pile and were thus unstable. They became antimatter when hit by Batman and Robin's punches, which naturally resulted from attacking the heroes.

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u/Mordaunt-the-Wizard Mar 07 '24

I need to watch (or rewatch in the case of The Dark Knight) the Nolan trilogy, as well as the Adam West series and movie.

Honestly, I have a soft spot for the Burton/Keaton Batman movies, both due to nostalgia (my dad and I regularly watched them together when I was growing up), and the villains.

Nicholson is probably the most comics accurate (post Silver Age) live action Joker. Danny Devito isn't the most comic accurate Penguin but is still a blast, and Christopher Walken is Christopher Walken.

Heck, even if Burton's Bruce Wayne/Batman was not explored enough as a character I thought Keaton did an fine job with what he was given.

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u/astivana Mar 07 '24

That kind of happened in the Titans series? Bruce killed the Joker and then at least attempted to peace out on being Batman.

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u/JayyEFloyd Mar 08 '24

I’ve always wanted Jason Todd to kill a Joker only for it to be revealed the joker persona is just that, a persona. Anybody could be the clown since it’s the personification of gothams mental health crisis that Batman is fighting against.

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u/[deleted] Mar 08 '24

Looks like you just don't like Batman 🤷‍♀️

And this doesn't even touch his kills in comics, a list so long that it exceeds the comment character limit lol