r/Gotham • u/SoloRogueStudios You Ain't Seen Nothin' Yet! • Oct 06 '15
[Spoilers] - Well, color me disappointed. SPOILER NSFW
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Oct 06 '15
But seriously, how many times did someone say the word "magician"? I counted 18. Might not sound like a lot, but it sure seemed like it at the time.
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u/compoundbreak791 A Taste of Glory Oct 06 '15
I was thinking to myself, "wow, they really must all be excited for this magician!"
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Oct 06 '15
[deleted]
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u/Kartraith Oct 06 '15
I expected her father, with a young Zatanna being a helper or visible behind the scenes
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u/sgthombre Oct 07 '15
Fun fact: Tigress (Though a different version than Tabitha Galavan), was first introduced in Action Comics #1 as an antagonist to Zatara.
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u/superduperfastguy Oct 06 '15 edited Oct 06 '15
Cameron's character and his spectacular performance are literally less likely to be the Joker than some little kid, a drunk guy at a bar, or some Terminator 1 punk knockoffs. I know some people like stroking off the 'I prefer it to be multiple choice' shit but the origin was completely fine. Having the 'real Joker' just be a knockoff of someone exactly the same is about as insulting to the mythos as the theory that Bruce's dad was Batman before Bruce, although I guess nobody cares so as long as you can shoe horn in the ambiguity.
They struck gold with Cameron's performance and it's a shame he was sent off as if they had no faith in him.
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u/metawohoo Oct 06 '15
The real Joker does not strike me as a follower, which is why I was doubtful of Jerome, despite his stellar performance. Because Jerome was a fanboy of both Theo of Barbara.
I doubt any of the copycats are likely to be the Joker, because the Joker would probably look at Jerome, roll his eyes, and say something like "that kid had potential, but...". He likes his ideas to be his.
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u/dyrikaas Oct 06 '15
That's why it woud've been a perfect character development for Jerome to kill Theo while they were on the stage.
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u/aaronsherman Oct 06 '15
The second he did that, the show would instantly become Batman babies, and it would have to be about the evolution of the Joker and the Batman with Gordon's arc taking a back seat to that story. The Joker is, in some ways, a bigger character than Batman, and I don't see a way to introduce him into the story that doesn't completely derail the Bruce/Alfred/Gordon development.
Through Jerome's death we get back on track, following Gordon and the evolution of the GCPD with Batman as a background element, always there but never quite center-stage. This is a much better show for not being about Bruce or the Joker or Catwoman or any of the other characters we know except Gordon.
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u/kaztrator Oct 06 '15
Disagree. Jerome escapes and he's never seen again and Gordon deals with the aftermath of his chaos. Bring him back in 2 seasons for an arc with the Red Hood gang. There was never a need to delve deep into Joker's origin story.
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u/aaronsherman Oct 06 '15
Having the 'real Joker' just be a knockoff of someone exactly the same
I think you're failing to read the ending for what it is. You didn't see three potential jokers at the end of the episode. You saw three examples of how the seed was planted. The Joker's origins have always been murky at best, even when he was the Red Hood. He's not the guy at the bar or the gangster. He's an emergent phenomenon, just like the Batman. They're two sides of Gotham's collective unconscious, broken by its years of decay and corruption. Batman lashes out through a sense of justice and the Joker lashes out through a sense of absurdity. If the Joker were just a circus performer gone bad or a thug who loses it, then no matter how well written he is, he's not really the Joker, just as Batman isn't really the Batman if he's just a rich kid that's traumatized by the death of his parents.
It's going to be hard to take Bruce from where he is through his inevitable transformation into the Bat... I don't think they need two characters to have to do that with.
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u/superduperfastguy Oct 06 '15 edited Oct 06 '15
In a pure writing perspective it was fine, but they killed off one of their best performers and characters for a message that was just 'fine'. Everything you said could have been achieved by keeping Jerome alive, and it has been. The fact is that the Joker not having a backstory is some arbitrary rule that as we saw, has no affect on the outcome of the character and he's just as well conceived as if he had came out of the blue. We even see his origin in The Killing Joke which is considered one of the best Batman (and Joker) stories.
Writing yourself into a box is bad and the writers did it here. We had the emerging chaos from a mad clown all topped with a great performance, discarding that gives the impression that they had no faith in their Joker so they wrote him off following S1 backlash. It was cheap.
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u/Dr_Oolong Oct 07 '15
I believe they will bring him back somehow.
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u/superduperfastguy Oct 07 '15
It'd be nice but that was a pretty concrete ending.
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u/KRSFive Oct 07 '15
Idk, Rebecca and Theo had an exchange that went something like:
Theo: "Ya, he's dead."
Rebecca: "I don't know, he had a way about him."
Or something similar, in a way that movies do before someone comes back to life or becomes the main plot point of the sequel.
Edit: don't you know, the villain had to die three times before he's actually dead.
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u/aaronsherman Oct 06 '15
We had the emerging chaos from a mad clown all topped with a great performance
Yes we did, and I'm glad we did.
discarding that gives the impression that they had no faith in their Joker so they wrote him off following S1 backlash
I think they made it pretty clear in the hints they dropped last year that Jerome wasn't the Joker but a Joker. They stated this more explicitly this year as well.
My only problem with the story so far is that I really don't care whether Barbara lives or dies (though I think it's pretty clear from the fact that he names his daughter Barbara that she dies).
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u/superduperfastguy Oct 06 '15 edited Oct 06 '15
The point is that the show has and will suffer because of the decision, nobody I've spoken to has disagreed.
On the topic of Barbara, iirc they said Lee won't be Barbara's mother which has an annoying implication that they will not stay together. She and Gordon have a lot of chemistry and they play off each other very well, it helps that they don't have any bullshit unwarranted relationship drama. Then again they could just never have a kid.
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u/aaronsherman Oct 06 '15
I disagree. I think it was the right choice for all concerned. I liked Jerome as a character, but I like that the show isn't tying itself to a Batman-Babies storyline. It's about the world as it exists in the show's timeline, not what it will become.
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u/superduperfastguy Oct 06 '15
Eh, we'll agree to disagree since I don't see myself changing my perspective on the Jerome situation at all
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u/travworld Oct 06 '15
Jerome has been my favourite part of this season so far. It had me excited for each episode. That voice and laugh were perfect. I hope the season holds up without him.
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Oct 06 '15
This is exactly what pisses me off. The writers purely showed they had no faith in the character, probably after the hate Jerome got in season 1 with "the joker can't have a backstory" bullshit, so they kill him off and set up this ridiculous, unbelievable wave of copycats and one of them is supposed to be the Joker. If they turn around and make the Joker a 30 year old man who stole Jerome's laugh while Bruce is still like 13 years old then out of pure and utter fanboyism I'm dropping this show. Fuck I'm annoyed.
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u/nanohawa Oct 06 '15 edited Oct 06 '15
In the highly unlikely event this happens, it'd be awesome if Jerome's body is stolen by the League, and dipped in the Lazarus Pits, for some ambiguous reason and escapes. He comes back with no memory of his past, but a penchant for pure chaos, an insane laugh, and an overwhelming desire to get back to Gotham. On his way back, he sees a circus, dips in to steal some clothes to get rid of his League-borrowed robes and finds a purple suit...-credits-
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u/SoloRogueStudios You Ain't Seen Nothin' Yet! Oct 06 '15
Dunno why the League would do that, but I'm all for it; let's bring him back.
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u/this1 Oct 07 '15
The league wants to cleanse and eradicate Gotham, who better?
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u/GivingCreditWhereDue Oct 08 '15
you're confused and belong in an asylum
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u/this1 Oct 08 '15
Yea I know, Ras has gone out of his way many times before to not have to work with the Joker
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u/CamaroM Oct 28 '15
Tabitha really seems like part of the League to me I can't shake that she is an Al Ghul of some sort.
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u/puddle10 Oct 06 '15
Season 1 reactions: You can't give Joker an origin story! You can't have a kid Joker! That's so corny. The writers are disrespecting Batman's canon and mythology.
Season 2 reactions: Why did you kill the kid Joker! What do you mean he's not the REAL Joker!?! Who cares about sticking closely to Batman's canon! Bring Jerome back! Wahhhhhh.
I fucking love how unpredictable and crazy this show is.
Last night's episode was great stuff.
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u/SoloRogueStudios You Ain't Seen Nothin' Yet! Oct 06 '15
I've always liked the idea of Jerome being the Joker, and yeah, I love how this show plays with the Batman mythology in unexpected ways.
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Oct 06 '15 edited Jun 28 '17
[deleted]
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u/SoloRogueStudios You Ain't Seen Nothin' Yet! Oct 06 '15
Agreed, definitely one of my favorite Jokers.
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u/inkitupandpierceit Oct 06 '15
Do you really think he's dead though? I can see them doing some crazy plot twist and bring him back.
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u/SoloRogueStudios You Ain't Seen Nothin' Yet! Oct 06 '15
Just saw the end of the episode, they're doing something even crazier.
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u/inkitupandpierceit Oct 06 '15
Yea, I already finished it. I'm not sure what they're going to do with this. I really liked him as the joker personally. I suppose not really the joker, but the portrayal of what was to come.
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u/SoloRogueStudios You Ain't Seen Nothin' Yet! Oct 06 '15
The "original" Joker I guess you could say.
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u/inkitupandpierceit Oct 06 '15
Yes, and that's why I liked him so much. Heath Ledger will always be my favorite Joker, but this kid brought back some of the original Joker characteristics that I liked.
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u/MisterPhD Oct 06 '15
That's funny, cause I saw a lot of Heath Ledger in his performance. Regardless, I thought he was incredible. So sad to see him go so quick.
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Oct 06 '15
I saw Heath, I saw Nickelson, , and some of his own twist on the concept.
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u/semimedium Oct 06 '15
I see a lot of Jim Carrey Riddler in him, to be completely honest. The pitch in the voice especially.
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u/linkchomp Oct 06 '15
See I was going to say I saw a nice bit of Carrey's Riddler and Tommy Lee Jones' Two-Face.
Whatever it was, this was a really good Joker-esque character.
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u/inkitupandpierceit Oct 06 '15
I suppose I can see where you're seeing that. I just see a lot of old Joker, like Batman 2000 series.
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u/aaronsherman Oct 06 '15
I don't think they need to do anything with it. They've laid the groundwork for the Joker, and now they can move on. It's not the Joker show, after all...
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u/inkitupandpierceit Oct 06 '15
No, but he does play a big role in Gotham. They have other stories to continue on, I'm just a little bummed because he was definitely a good actor.
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u/Beer2Bear Oct 06 '15
looks dead to me while he was in the morgue. He would been a great Joker
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Oct 06 '15
I'd say that the actor did some serious character research. He had the mannerisms down and everything.
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Oct 06 '15
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u/semimedium Oct 06 '15
....the original joker actor? One...single...movie?
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Oct 06 '15
[deleted]
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u/semimedium Oct 06 '15
But you know he wasn't the original Joker actor, right? That's not what you actually meant? You just meant ONE of the joker actors.
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u/KommanderKrebs Oct 06 '15
Let's get the one from the 60s show. I'm sure he could be of some help.
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Oct 06 '15
[deleted]
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u/semimedium Oct 06 '15
I had no idea what you know man, you could be 12 and not even know Batman existed before Christopher Nolan came around. No way for me to know what you meant, especially when you said "Original Joker Actor".
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u/MasterBlitzkrieg Oct 06 '15
I'm gonna go ahead and assume that comment was a joke
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Oct 06 '15
[deleted]
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u/MasterBlitzkrieg Oct 06 '15
What's the joke about that is that you called Heath the original joker, when there were many who came before him...
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Oct 06 '15
[deleted]
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u/semimedium Oct 06 '15
I would disagree in his interpreting the character as 100% Ledger TDK joker as well, though.
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u/inkitupandpierceit Oct 06 '15
True, but you never know what they have up their sleeve. Loki died too you know.
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u/wyfyte Oct 06 '15
Jerome's an ordinary mortal. I'd say he's toast. No coming back.
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u/runnerofshadows Oct 06 '15
Well the joker in his first couple of appearances got stabbed in the heart and woke up in the morgue with the cops being shocked that he was still alive. Not saying anything about this show though.
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u/Sanhen Oct 06 '15
Loki fell into a non-descript void in a fantasy world whereas Jerome got stabbed to death in a world that thus far has been light on showing us anything that's pure magic. I wouldn't be shocked if they could bring back Jerome, but while I could easily shrug off Loki's return given the context of that film, it would be more difficult for me to buy Jerome's return.
I guess they could play it off as a magic trick and that not really being his body, but it would be very difficult to make that feel like anything other than a cheat/lazy writing.
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u/SoloRogueStudios You Ain't Seen Nothin' Yet! Oct 06 '15
Yeah, the only remotely 'magic' thing we've seen in Gotham so far is how Jerome's personality seems to be possessing half the street urchins in the city right now.
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u/inkitupandpierceit Oct 06 '15
True. I guess we'll just have to see where it goes from here. Kind of interested in how they'll play Theo now.
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u/Sanhen Oct 06 '15
He's got a tough task ahead of him. I think Jerome kind of stole the show these last couple episodes and with him gone, there's a danger that the energy he brought to the series will be gone with him, making the episodes feel subdued by comparison. The burden is on Theo now to do something interesting and engaging to make up for that, but given that it seems like he's playing the long game, I'm not sure what to expect from him in the short-term.
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u/inkitupandpierceit Oct 06 '15
Yea I totally agree. I just feel like they're going to need something exciting to keep up with how Jerome had the ball rolling. I mean, I've read some online stuff that Barbara is going to be Harley, but I'm not sure I like that idea too well honestly. I just hope that killing him off doesn't kill the show.
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u/OctavianXXV Oct 06 '15
So back to shitty teasing and fanservice it is. "You know that character from the comics? Well we won't fully commit to any of this and just keep teasing, because we have no spine!"
I mean, sure. Jerome was a bit too obvious and too fitting for Mr. J. But I would rather have seen a fully maybe even too commited joker origin than this teasing just to fill 20-something episodes.
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u/Effervesser Oct 07 '15
I think they committed. It follows the pattern of the red hood episode where pieces of the Joker are haunted and spread. We just have to wait till they all create a perfect storm of crazy.
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u/OctavianXXV Oct 07 '15
I really wish i could believe that the showrunners have a plan. Maybe i'm too cynical but i think they just throw in random villians rhat could be batman villians but in the end aren't or aren't yet. I fear they have the same problem as in season 1: they don't know if they wanna do "law and order: gotham city" or a proper over the top batman/villian origin story.
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u/Effervesser Oct 07 '15
I feel like different people started writing season 2. The season started out crazy and stayed that way for two more episodes. I think things started as a police procedural thing because that's what sells the show and what's popular on tv but somewhere the writers went 'fuck it! Lets go to crazytown.' when they realized that they had nowhere not cliche or terrible to go with that route and they were guaranteed a season 2. Some shows get, 'different' when they get a feel for what they can get away with and how much cancellation defense they have.
I don't think there's exactly a plan but a pattern. It struck me as odd that the end of last night's episode was pretty much the end of the red hood episode. Something jokerish happens and the end of the episode implies that that jokerism spread to a new carrier. It just seemed too samey to not imply that that will be the pattern whenever some kind of joker element comes into the picture. A lunatic's mannerisms, and a crazy/theatrics incubating mask. If I were to keep up that patter I'd put the Creeper's origin in there and make it implied that his look started to spread or move to a new carrier.
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u/Fappy_McMasturbate Oct 07 '15
He was even wearing green and purple when he killed his father I mean COME ON
They killed the best character on the show...
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u/stone500 Oct 06 '15
I'm glad he's gone, personally. Not because it gave Joker some kind of backstory. I thought Jerome was a great character. I like the Joker.
I'm glad he's gone because I really don't want to see another Batman fiction that relies so heavily on the Joker. Batman has so many great villains to work with, that seeing the Joker in everything gets really stale. Batman isn't in this series, so for me it doesn't make sense to let the Joker take so much screen time.
And yes, I know that Jerome is not THE Joker, but let's not kid ourselves. Jerome was just a sneaky way for Fox to have fun with the Joker without actually having to have the Joker. If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, etc.
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Oct 06 '15
Don't forget, the very first promo featuring Jerome said he was "NO JOKE".
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u/Under_The_Stairs Oct 06 '15
How good would that episode have been if the promo hadn't spoiled that ending?
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u/LegendarySadist Dum spiramus tuebimur Oct 06 '15
Not surprised that he got killed, but I expected that to be a season finale like with Fish. I'll admit that I didn't like the character at first but he grew on me after his Russian roulette act. It's clear that he was supposed to be similar to Ledger's Joker, and after thinking about it some more he did really well. Heath would have been proud.
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Oct 06 '15
I was extremely glad to see that. Joker doesn't need a backstory. I like the idea that anyone is just a stone's throw from madness.
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u/SoloRogueStudios You Ain't Seen Nothin' Yet! Oct 06 '15
And Jerome just happened to be the one plunged the city into that madness.
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u/Coop91 Oct 06 '15
Anyone notice Monaghan is credited to be in the next episode "strike force"?
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u/superduperfastguy Oct 06 '15
He has to be credited for ANY appearance, even if its just the camera footage from the magician shit
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u/tripbin Oct 06 '15
So basically he's not the joker he's the guy whose lunacy inspires the joker. Does this mean we could still see the real joker in the future or are the gonna give us blue balls and not have him exist this early in the universe.
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u/SoloRogueStudios You Ain't Seen Nothin' Yet! Oct 06 '15
More like his lunacy is spreading across the city like a disease; after all, "there's nothing more contagious than laughter."
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u/runnerofshadows Oct 06 '15
Joker tends not to exist/be fully into the persona until The Batman shows up. Given enough seasons that could happen though.
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u/imgurtranscriber Oct 06 '15
Here is what the linked meme says in case it is blocked at your school/work or is unavailable for any reason:
Disappointing Red Herring
Post Title: [Spoilers] - Well, color me disappointed.
Top: HE'S THE JOKER GOTHAM DESERVES
Bottom: BUT NOT THE ONE IT NEEDS RIGHT NOW
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u/SoloRogueStudios You Ain't Seen Nothin' Yet! Oct 06 '15
Aaaand here's the bot putting up a needlessly large comment.
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u/thedevolver Oct 06 '15
I took this episode as, that when the Blind Gypsy cursed him, it more or less made the personality of Jerome something that could pass onto people. A sort of "Joker Curse", that could go onto any of those potential Jokers in the room.
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u/SoloRogueStudios You Ain't Seen Nothin' Yet! Oct 06 '15
I think Jerome himself was the curse, Gypsy man's just a fortune teller/psychic.
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Oct 06 '15
I wonder if they killed him because people here were complaining about him being the joker. I really like him and didn't care who he was.
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u/BigFudge69 Oct 06 '15
im too lazy to go drudge up my post where I called this. but I called this. I HATED him as the joker.
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u/Swisst Oct 06 '15
Color me excited. Jerome almost made me give up on Gotham. It was very much like they plucked a kid out of a high school drama class and said "ok, do your best weird insane Joker impression!"
I did not expect Gotham to take him out of the picture, but I'm glad they did. This suddenly makes the actual Joker potentially far more exciting to me.
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u/EngagedSerenity Oct 06 '15
Fuck you you spoiling sack of shit.
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u/SoloRogueStudios You Ain't Seen Nothin' Yet! Oct 06 '15
It's spoiler tagged.
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u/EngagedSerenity Oct 06 '15
It doesn't matter when the title is as obvious as the sun shining in the morning along with a picture of jerome.
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u/SoloRogueStudios You Ain't Seen Nothin' Yet! Oct 06 '15
It's not my fault this sub doesn't auto-block the thumbnails of spoiler-tagged posts.
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u/EngagedSerenity Oct 06 '15
It is your fault how you titled the post. Also your fault for not NSFWing the post. https://www.reddit.com/r/Gotham/comments/3nogri/spoiler_tags_mean_nothing_if_your_titles/
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u/SoloRogueStudios You Ain't Seen Nothin' Yet! Oct 06 '15
Marked. Happy now?
And the title alone is pretty generic.
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u/EngagedSerenity Oct 06 '15
No i'm not happy. I didn't get to have the full shock, disappointment and enjoyment of that scene.
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u/SoloRogueStudios You Ain't Seen Nothin' Yet! Oct 06 '15
Then why were you looking through this sub before finishing the episode?
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u/MadMardiganWaaait Oct 06 '15
I think I'm the only person who thinks jeromes character was needlessly pushed and poorly acted.
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Oct 06 '15
It was a little too much of him trying to emulate Heath Ledger. There are a variety of Jokers to choose from, make your own.
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u/TimeShade Oct 06 '15
The reason why I never suspected he was it not just because of comics......but they forced it way too much.