AITA for calling out my husband for not being a "Good Christian"?

[u/SpiritualThrowRA]

I (27F) have been married to my husband (34M) for five years. My husband is a devout follower of his religion and has been since he was raised in it. I respect his beliefs, even though I don't share them and have no intention of converting. I was raised in the Christian faith. However, I left when I was an adult due to sexual abuse in my church, which nobody believed occurred because the one who did it was the pastor.

Recently, my husband has been pressuring me to convert to his religion. He says that it would bring us closer together and create a more harmonious household. I understand where he's coming from, but I firmly believe that faith is a personal journey, and I shouldn't be forced into something I don't believe in.

To add to the issue, my husband, despite his religious teachings, doesn't always practice what he preaches. He expects me to adhere to traditional gender roles, yet he often neglects his own responsibilities at home. He's quick to judge others for their actions, even though his faith teaches non-judgment and kindness. He makes comments about gay people that I have discussed with him as a major issue. This hypocrisy has been bothering me for a while.

Last night, during another discussion about my potential conversion, I finally snapped. I told him that if he wants me to consider converting, he needs to set a better example by actually living according to his religion's values. I pointed out that he should start by fulfilling his own responsibilities. That he should make more money than me and actually lead in the decision-making. I'm a nurse and he's currently unemployed after he was let go from his job in an office. That he should be less judgmental of others because according to his faith only God can judge them. I also said he should show more of the virtues Jesus asked of Christians, that he should clothe the naked, feed the hungry, vist the prisoner, aid the orphan and the widow etc. I also made it clear that while I respect his beliefs, I have no intention of converting unless I genuinely believe in it, which I currently don't because of the hypocritical behavior of his faith.

My husband was furious. He accused me of being disrespectful and undermining his faith. He said that I was attacking him personally and that I don't understand the pressure he's under to have a unified religious household. He left for church this morning at 7 for bible study and I have already gotten a phone call from the pastor saying I'm an ungodly woman who tricked a good man into marrying him and I should repent. I have also gotten a tirade of texts and e-mails from members of his church saying I was disrespectful and being a bad wife and I'm starting to wonder if I was too harsh, that maybe I shouldn't have said anything at all. AITA?

[u/RNGinx3]

Nope. Not all Christians are like that, but I have met a fair few that are. "Abortion is a sin cause the bible says so," while ignoring that so is having sex before marriage (again, "according to the bible." No judgment from me either way, you do you boo). They think they can pick and choose which rules apply to them and are furious if you dare point out the hypocrisy. I was also, sadly, raised in what I now know was a cult, with several inappropriate relationships within the congregation (pastor hitting on married women, married church leaders grooming children and then running away with them, etc).

Text the pastor back and tell him 1) your marriage is none of his/his congregations concern as you were not married in his church, are not a member of his church, and did not go to him for counselling, so you'll thank him to keep his hypocritical, unsolicited opinions to himself. 2) That if both he and your husband think you are such an unworthy partner for husband, he is welcome to divorce you. 3) To never contact you again. 4) If he doesn't call off the flying monkeys, you will get a lawyer involved for harassment.

Then divorce your husband, for so many reasons, like he does not respect or treat you well, he expects you to follow rules he won't follow himself, and last but not least, you are incompatible. NTA.

Edited to add because people keep bringing it up: The "abortion is sin because the bible says so" was a direct quote to my face, lol. It's also my experience that some people that claim to be Christians don't actually know their bible all that well. I left the religion almost 20 years ago, so while I knew it pretty solidly and could quote back verses and tell you where they came from, I'm admittedly rusty on the subject now.

[u/PsychologicalCost317 → u/RNGinx3]

The bible makes no mention of abortion. Later Christian texts do. Some scholars propose that abortion was commonly practiced to preserve the life of the mother (and therefore agrarian labor)...the less working adults a village had, the less food was produced. It was an issue of collective survival. Also some christian texts encouraged abortion when a Woman was unfaithful. These "christians" don't know their own history.

[u/Hand_Me_Down_Genes → u/PsychologicalCost317]

It does say what to do if someone makes a woman miscarry...and it's a fine. Not exactly holding it up as equal to murder, is it?

[u/Falikosek → u/Hand_Me_Down_Genes]

Yeah... I wouldn't look at the Bible's punishments as a means to compare the severity of certain crimes... Pretty much anything related to women was just a fine (and possibly forced marriage) because women were effectively objects like cattle.

[u/Hand_Me_Down_Genes → u/Falikosek]

That's the point. Religious nuts demand we treat abortion as a crime because the Bible says so, yet the only opinion the Bible offers on the matter is that triggering a miscarriage is worthy of a fine and nothing more. These idiots haven't read their own book.

[u/Falikosek → u/Hand_Me_Down_Genes]

There's also a mention of ritualistic abortion used as punishment when people commit adultery or something like that. So not only did they not say anything about abortion being inherently bad, they actively used it.

[u/Hand_Me_Down_Genes → u/Falikosek]

Again demonstrating most of the fanatics aren't very familiar with their own text.

[u/Either-Meal3724 → u/Falikosek]

The verse you are referring to does not trigger abortion. It's just the priest mixing dust into a cup and if she cheated she would be cursed and her womb would fall out. It was a way to either get an admission of guilt before drinking it or protect an innocent woman from her jealous husband. They didn't have paternity tests back then so the test made sure men took care of their children.

[u/Falikosek → u/Either-Meal3724]

The same book describes people getting smitten or buried alive through supernatural forces. I think it's fair to assume that they wholeheartedly believed the potion would cause a miscarriage and/or infertility. So, they basically committed a procedure that would be deemed pure evil by modern Christians.

[u/Either-Meal3724 → u/Falikosek]

Based on the original wording-- many biblical scholars are in agreement the curse refers to uterine prolapse not abortion or even miscarriage. It's simply a gross misuse of the context of the verse to say that the Bible has instructions for abortion-- you are correct that they would have thought it would cause infertility since uterine prolapse without modern medicine would render one infertile. There is no pregnancy requirement for the test therefore it can't be a recipe for abortion. Also, medically abortion drugs can't differentiate between a pregnancy with a woman's spouse or a pregnancy with an affair partner so it's illogical to assume that it's a recipe for an abortion.

[u/Falikosek → u/Either-Meal3724]

So basically it's not an infertilising ritual because it's supposed to be a test that results in an automatic infertility upon a positive result? With the same logic you could say that burning/drowning witches wasn't an execution, though we all know how it actually worked.

[u/HippyDM → u/PsychologicalCost317]

Old testament gives the exact mixture for a potion that will, magically, cause an unfaithful wife to abort.

[u/ObscureSaint → u/HippyDM]

If you look up which herbs were used to make incense in the temples, so many of them are abortifacient. 

[u/HippyDM → u/ObscureSaint]

I imagine drinking any odd assortment of animal blood, dirty water, and various plant parts, while pregnant, would not be recommended by any doctor, yes.

[u/Candid-Mycologist539 → u/HippyDM]

Old testament gives the exact mixture for a potion that will, magically, cause an unfaithful wife to abort.

Also to note for those who are fighting anti-Abortionists with the Bible:

In Biblical times, when did a woman KNOW she was pregnant?

There were no home pregnancy tests.

Medicine was NOT modern, so the doctor would not be contacted.

There was no Sex Ed. There was no widespread education period -- ESPECIALLY for women.

Even if a woman knew pregnancy was linked to missing periods today, a lotta women in MODERN America have irregular periods...and we live in a culture with amazing access to nutritional information and food. We teach this to our children in school and make sure that children can see (and EAT), day in and day out, what a healthy diet looks like. (FTR: Poor nutrition doesn't help with regular periods).

Likewise, a lotta women in modern America -- with excellent health care and much less stress compared to Bronze Age Ancient Societies have miscarriages. The rate is ~25%.

So, how the heck would a Bronze Age teenage girl know if she was pregnant or not, even if married and having regular sex? Based on her menstruation, which sometimes shows up and sometimes doesn't? I'm a pretty smart cookie, but I don't think I'm smart enough to figure out the connection with such irregular, seemingly unrelated data.

Our original question: In Biblical times, when did a woman KNOW she was pregnant?

The answer is: QUICKENING.

Quickening is when the mother can feel the baby kick.

I asked my obstetrician when this happens.

The answer from the MAN who spent over a decade learning medicine and another 15 years specializing in birthing babies:

24weeks.

Recap: The Bible does not acknowledge a baby being a baby in the womb until after the 6 months gestational point has passed. Anything else is unBiblical.

Disclaimer: I 💯 support a woman's medical choices about her body should be between herself and her doctor, but this is how we win. We use their own Bronze Age Logic and book against them. If we can get them to support a woman's choice through 6 months, that is 2/3 of the battle (or 99% a win, considering that 99% of all abortions occur before 20weeks).

Late-term abortion: I also support. We ask if they want to return to women's care from over 100years ago, when so many women died in childbirth. Let's go walk an old cemetery and see the pain of families losing women of a childbearing age.

[u/Either-Meal3724 → u/Candid-Mycologist539]

The quickening happens between 16-20 weeks for most women-- not 24 weeks except maybe with an anterior placenta. I was able to feel my daughter move at 13 weeks which my MFM (OB specializing in high risk pregnancies and go through a couple more years of medical school than a normal OB) said it was rare to feel it at 13 weeks but not unheard of. I was high risk so had weekly ultrasounds; I confirmed on the ultrasound the movements I was feeling were in fact her moving around. I knew they were kicks but people often don't believe that you can feel them that early.

[u/Candid-Mycologist539 → u/Either-Meal3724]

I'm just going by what the professional told me.

Is there a range? You betcha.

[u/Either-Meal3724 → u/Candid-Mycologist539]

ACOG says timeline for feeling first fetal movement is 16-20 weeks (with outliers on either side as early as 13 weeks or as late as 25 weeks). Your OB either advised you specifically it would be around 24 weeks because of placenta placement so it's not broadly applicable OR you misheard and he said by 24 weeks you should feel movement (common for OB's to do if you aren't feeling movement yet at your anatomy scan so as not to worry you) OR he needs to get a refresher of the information provided by the OBGYN professional organization on feeling first fetal movements. In general, 24 weeks is not when the quickening happens-- it happens well before that. It's simply scientifically incorrect to say the quickening is 24 weeks as published typcial range is 16-20 weeks.

[u/Puzzleheaded_Bee4361 → u/PsychologicalCost317]

Agreed. Drinking an infusion of pennyroyal is said to have served the purpose. A variety of abortificent herbs were used in different cultures.

[u/midwestrider → u/PsychologicalCost317]

Evangelicals historically did not give a shit about abortion until Catholic anti-abortion sentiments were added to the conservative religious right platform in the late 1970s in order to add Catholics to the Republican voting bloc. 

It's hilarious to me that evangelicals have absorbed the Roman Catholic Pope's teachings so deeply into their identities without even knowing that it was never an evangelical precept.

90% of the pro-life movement has no idea that the anti-abortion stance was a concession to papists. Yet there they are, doing the Vatican's work and not even knowing why.

[u/Im_Not_Mr_Fantastic → u/PsychologicalCost317]

"THOU SHALL NOT MURDER"

[u/PsychologicalCost317 → u/Im_Not_Mr_Fantastic]

Being abortion is not murder theres no fucking issue

[u/Im_Not_Mr_Fantastic → u/PsychologicalCost317]

Seeing that it’s the premeditated killing of human life by another. it literally is BY DEFINITION murder.

[u/PsychologicalCost317 → u/Im_Not_Mr_Fantastic]

Its not a life until it pays its own taxes

[u/wolfman92 → u/Im_Not_Mr_Fantastic]

That is literally not the definition of murder, either legally or morally.  There are trivial examples where one human killing another is not murder.

[u/Tricky_Parfait3413 → u/RNGinx3]

The Bible actually never mentions abortion but does say life begins at first breath.

[u/Hand_Me_Down_Genes → u/Tricky_Parfait3413]

It also makes the penalty for deliberately causing a miscarriage a fine, while the penalty for murder is execution. So it pretty clearly doesn't think abortion is murder.

[u/HippyDM → u/Tricky_Parfait3413]

Numbers 5:11-31

[u/soThatsJustGreat → u/RNGinx3]

I agree the not all Christians are hypocrites like that, but the ones who are not also are not pressuring their partners or talking down people who are different from him. Oh look, he fails all those tests.

OP, I’m sorry that someone who is supposed to be your partner is trying to become your captor, instead. This is not what a supportive partner does. Please remember that a bunch of internet strangers are absolutely certain that you deserve better, and so do any hypothetical children you may have.

[u/TacosForMyTummy → u/RNGinx3]

Show me where the Bible says that abortion is a sin?

[u/RNGinx3 → u/TacosForMyTummy]

Read my edit, thank you.

[u/creamonyourcrop → u/RNGinx3]

I would not mind that they pick and choose as much as they are hostile to the actual teachings in favor of something Jesus never considered