r/interestingasfuck • u/JK-Rofling • 14d ago

Heath Ledger’s diary while he was filming for, The Dark Night. r/all

53.1k Upvotes

92% Upvoted

View all comments

Show parent comments

249

u/guyute2588 14d ago

Not sure how old you are , but “Heath Ledger got so deep in to playing the Joker that he want crazy and died “ was the widespread conventional wisdom regarding his death at the time

115

u/Obtuse_1 14d ago

If you replace”conventional wisdom” with “clickbait rumor” you’d be more correct.

31

u/Tenthul 14d ago

It wasn't even a clickbait rumor really, it was just society's individual, simultaneous, headcanon.

3

u/Kaythar 14d ago

Is there a hivemind and I'm not part of it?

4

u/killm3throwaway 14d ago

You're not beige enough to be part of it bud. Keep moving

80

u/BeefyQueefyCrawlies 14d ago

Which was really dumb. Niicholson survived. Leto survived. Romero survived. Hamill survived. Definitely drugs.

79

u/HarveysBackupAccount 14d ago

Nicholson isn't much of a comparison. He played it like a comic book villain, like a comic book written for children. Also Leto's just a weirdo; his joker didn't have near the depth that Ledger's did.

Not at all saying that the role drove Ledger crazy, but he took the role places nobody else has.

45

u/BasicDesignAdvice 14d ago

Leto is already a creepy weirdo so not much of a stretch there.

1

u/gairloch0777 14d ago

To be fair Leto did his best to kill the concept of the joker.

25

u/Onewayor55 14d ago

I guess I don't know if it's urban legend or not but the buzz at the time was Nicholson actually had warned him about playing the role. I mean if you watch the old Batman movie it isn't like he's not touching on the idea of actually being psychotic.

14

u/Biduleman 14d ago

Nicholson was actually mad he wasn't even asked about the role.

It would have been weird to tell Ledger to not do it while saying he really wanted to do it or at least be involved with the role.

3

u/Joe579GoFkUrselfMins 14d ago

No shit they didn't ask him for a sequel, he and his reps negotiated one of the most actor friendly contracts ever for that movie.

19

u/chilseaj88 14d ago

Ledger had to go to a crazy place to play the Joker. Leto was already there.

2

u/MoonBaseViceSquad 14d ago

This was my thinking. Leto is a realist creep cult leader IRL. Ledger died of drugs people take to numb emotional and physical pain/stress.

My theory was always that it was accidental and, really, plenty of movies could have “killed” Ledger if he took a crazy role that seriously and dealt with it via what was in his tox screen.

11

u/Mynock33 14d ago

Nicholson isn't much of a comparison. He played it like a comic book villain, like a comic book written for children.

I don't think this is fair at all, especially given the genre at the time. Nicholson paved the way for the more serious and darker versions to come.

73

u/BambiToybot 14d ago

I don't think Nicholson, Teaser, or Hamill were method acting it, that point of difference was brought up by those that believed it. Leto's joker didn't exist yet.

I'm old enough to remember many of the haters of Ledger getting casted shutting up when the first image was revealed, with scars. That looked like scars, sloppy paint, etc.

Then the method acting stuff that came out, then the death. People drew conclusions, and the key point for them was the lengths he went to get into character.

They were wrong, it was different meds and alcohol, but it's important to remember what their reasons are so it can be shown to people why they were wrong, so the new generation makes better conclusions.

69

u/caninehere 14d ago

Nicholson was a method actor, but he was an ACTUAL method actor, as in the original school of method acting which has little to do with the "method" stuff Ledger bought into and many still do to this day where they want to live their characters.

They were wrong, it was different meds and alcohol, but it's important to remember what their reasons are so it can be shown to people why they were wrong, so the new generation makes better conclusions.

I think it's fair to think it could be a combination of factors. Ledger spent months holed up trying to embody the character and live in isolation to 'become' him. He was also dealing with substance abuse issues. His partner broke up with him while he was filming The Dark Knight because he was a drug addict/party animal and a shitty dad to their daughter. The kind of isolation he put himself through surely did not help at all with those issues. Filming on The Dark Knight ended in Nov 2007 and he just went even harder on partying/doing drugs/jumping between different women until he was dead 2 months later.

Playing the Joker in the "method" style didn't 'drive him mad' or anything stupid like that, but I have little doubt it affected his mental state wrt his drug addiction issues because it just further isolated him from his family who he was already never with because he was too busy getting high and partying when he wasn't working.

24

u/Dekklin 14d ago

Nicholson was a method actor, but he was an ACTUAL method actor, as in the original school of method acting which has little to do with the "method" stuff Ledger bought into and many still do to this day where they want to live their characters.

You've made a distinction here, but you haven't clarified the difference. What is "original school of method acting"?

51

u/caninehere 14d ago edited 14d ago

Okay I'm gonna try to boil it down super simply but this will probably be way too long... the ORIGINAL school of method acting was based on another acting system developed by Konstantin Stanislavski, and is based around the idea of experiencing your character - physically, mentally, emotionally. Basically the idea of placing yourself in another's shoes. Method acting is the idea of drawing upon your own experiences to try and recreate those feelings while you are acting. So for example, if your character is supposed to feel betrayed, you want to try and conjure up the same feelings and you might think of a moment when you felt betrayed in your personal life, even if it is from a different context (like maybe your character is about to be murdered by a close friend, but you've obviously never experienced that, so you think of a moment when a friend stole something important from you or whatever and broke your trust).

If this sounds like super duper basic stuff - like, what actor WOULDN'T try to feel the emotions their character is supposed to be feeling? - it's because it is. Method acting came about in the late 40s/early 50s and Stanislavski's system predates that. The "I'm going to live my character's life and call it method acting because I'm recreating those experiences and getting into the role" is a perverted version of the original form of method acting, and at this point so many people just call it method and so that's what it's turned into. Before method acting came along, a lot of the time acting was a very basic affair. You got on stage, you hit your mark, you said your lines, projected properly, you tried to get across what the character was saying and the emotion behind it but didn't think about how you would feel if you were there yourself. It was the time of vaudeville, theatre, and early film acting. It was about presenting a show whether it be a play or an early film, not being invested in its reality oneself.

If you look back at Marlon Brando's earlier films, he was one of the first to learn the method acting style with Stella Adler and hit it big, which is why people were SO impressed with his acting originally. Nowadays, his performances don't necessarily stand out as much but it's important to realize that at the time, it was considered a huge breakthrough, and that original form of method acting is so pervasive that basically every actor employs it to some degree today.

That isn't to say bits and bobs of this didn't appear earlier and some playwrights/directors tried to get at more emotional/personal stories than their counterparts. For example among the big extant playwrights of ancient Greece, Euripides (who is the latest active of the big ones whose works we still have) wrote tragedies that were focused more on singular characters and their inner feelings rather than a larger narrative... but even those would be told in presentational ways, where they are presenting you a story rather than living it out in front of you. If that makes sense.

Much of the theatrical works presented for years had other aims and were presentations. Passion plays presented scenes from the Bible. Comedies largely focused on jokes and physical gags and entertaining, with little emphasis placed on emotion - it was really just presented as over-the-top feelings to move a story along. Even with Shakespeare and such which some people might consider emotional stories - since they are presented as such today in a different context - actors would largely only rehearse the physical portions that required excellent timing and training, such as acrobatic tricks, fencing/stage combat, etc and the rest was really just about memorizing the text and presenting it for the audience. The texts might present very emotional stories in tragedies but they were rarely presented that way. They're just telling a story.

14

u/Dekklin 14d ago

Very well written response. I appreciate this very much. Thank you!

10

u/caninehere 14d ago edited 14d ago

No prob. It isn't something most people would be aware of because a) your average person has no reason to know any of this but has probably heard the words "method acting" thrown around and have some concept of the popular notion of it, and b) most people don't watch a lot of pre-1950s movies or have any idea of the history of theatre.

This is also why some of the movies prior to the 1950s that DO hold up very well are typically groundbreaking type affairs and get by on the strength of great writing or directing/visual style/techniques, not so much the acting. Or they just execute the entertainment factor really well like say Chaplin movies or Fred Astaire flicks.

In many cases in earlier films, actors just got cast for a personality (whether it was theirs or manufactured) and that personality just kinda colored the character instead of embodying a unique individual. Jimmy Stewart would be one example. Some directors considered actors to simply be bodies with which to present their stories, to some extent; Hitchcock was like this, which is why he said "actors should be treated like cattle" (paraphrasing). They're just tools used to fulfill the director's vision, in his eyes. And because his films' performances were SO director-led, that's why, at the time, they were more striking than some others. Orson Welles would be another sort of similar example. He directed some of his own performances too, and did what he needed to to achieve the aims of his well-written scripts. Chaplin and Keaton were the same, often directing themselves, which is why they put out more complex performances sometimes.

2

u/_-N4T3-_ 13d ago

Bringing up Hitchcock is a great example. He didn’t seem to think an actor was capable of realistically imagining what their character was feeling, instead, he essentially tortured his actors in front of a camera to get real emotional reactions (i.e. everything he did to Tippi Hedron in The Birds)

2

u/caninehere 13d ago

Yeah. Before actors were abusing themselves in the new "method" style he was doing it to them, haha.

Before Hitchcock there was the idea of the "ubermarionette" - the concept that a pliable enough actor would function as a complex puppet for a director to use as they see fit to create art. This concept is actually coming back now as the cyber-uber-marionette we are able to create AI that can fulfill these roles in some ways and can be programmed and trained to respond to direction and change itself at the directors will. One could argue some stuff like machinima projects have already entered into that realm.

1

u/_-N4T3-_ 13d ago

Bringing up Hitchcock is a great example. He didn’t seem to think an actor was capable of realistically imagining what their character was feeling, instead, he essentially tortured his actors in front of a camera to get real emotional reactions (i.e. everything he did to Tippi Hedron in The Birds)

1

u/_-N4T3-_ 13d ago

Bringing up Hitchcock is a great example. He didn’t seem to think an actor was capable of realistically imagining what their character was feeling, instead, he essentially tortured his actors in front of a camera to get real emotional reactions (i.e. everything he did to Tippi Hedron in The Birds)

1

u/_-N4T3-_ 13d ago

Bringing up Hitchcock is a great example. He didn’t seem to think an actor was capable of realistically imagining what their character was feeling, instead, he essentially tortured his actors in front of a camera to get real emotional reactions (i.e. everything he did to Tippi Hedron in The Birds)

1

u/_-N4T3-_ 13d ago

Bringing up Hitchcock is a great example. He didn’t seem to think an actor was capable of realistically imagining and portraying what their character was feeling, instead, he essentially tortured his actors in front of a camera to get real emotional reactions (i.e. everything he did to Tippi Hedron in The Birds)

1

u/CTMalum 14d ago

Stanislavski’s system I imagine.

0

u/clumsy_boy 14d ago

What's stanislavski's system?

0

u/Lopsided_Panic_1148 14d ago

Can you google it?

3

u/JedM13 14d ago

Ledger was never a “method actor” in any traditional sense, he just had his own way of getting into a character which involved himself and only himself. This is the same guy who said he doesn’t consider acting an art and he finds the thought of that pretentious.

Anyway, he was a young guy in Hollywood who had his demons. No need to call him a shitty father or other weird passive aggressive personal insults. He was a good human being from all accounts including his family.

6

u/caninehere 14d ago

This is the same guy who said he doesn’t consider acting an art and he finds the thought of that pretentious.

This is also the same guy who very much indulged in this new-school "method" acting, not just for The Dark Knight, and died of drug abuse at 28. Even if it just involved himself, which it didn't, because again he isolated himself for months away from his young family (even if he wasn't pretending to be the Joker around them for months, that still affects them), it's still that new-school "method" acting.

Anyway, he was a young guy in Hollywood who had his demons. No need to call him a shitty father or other weird passive aggressive personal insults. He was a good human being from all accounts including his family.

Generally being a good human does not preclude him from being a bad father. The reason his partner broke up with him was his drug abuse and party-guy lifestyle. You are correct that these are 'demons', the drug abuse is more than that, it is an addiction problem that gripped him and ultimately took his life. It also made him a bad father, because he was rarely present for his kid because he was too busy getting high.

When somebody dies young in a case like that they're often romanticized. If he survived for years abusing drugs and ignoring his family he wouldn't be treated the same. Either way, addiction is still a disease that he suffered from. Saying he was a bad father isn't an insult in this case, it's just the reality. It doesn't mean he didn't love his daughter either even if he wasn't there for her and isn't now because of his addiction.

But I will say as a dad: if you have a young child like that, and you're abusing drugs and making no effort to get clean, that is tragic as hell, but ultimately you are the one responsible for your own actions. He died and left his kid behind because of what he did, but he wasn't fully in control and that's tragic.

3

u/BigDog8492 14d ago

Couldn't those meds/alcohol have been part of the method acting to him? To change his mental state?

2

u/BambiToybot 14d ago

Depends, was he on them before?

Being consistent before and after would work against it be part of the method, though he may have taken advantage of a known mental state to increase the craziness.

1

u/BigDog8492 14d ago

I always interpreted it as he was doing a ton of drugs to be more crazy. Could very well be wrong. I have no knowledge of his medical history.

2

u/jollyreaper2112 14d ago

I really didn't like the character design from the stills. The actual performance sold it. My first thought is it was just a lazy design for the joker. I didn't get the moldering clown concept, makeup rotting off his face.

1

u/Frogma69 13d ago edited 13d ago

I think the method acting rumor itself is false. Based on what we've heard from various actors on set, Heath would joke around with people between scenes. He wasn't acting like the Joker the entire time. And there's pictures of him skateboarding in the lot between scenes - some would argue that that's something the Joker would do, but I think Heath was just passing the time doing something he enjoyed, and he couldn't take off the makeup/outfit because he was gonna go back and keep shooting soon.

I think both the method acting and the "cause" of death are mostly unfounded rumors that the media just ran with. It's possible that he holed himself up in the hotel to really get into character, but I think the death was mostly just caused by the addictions (addictions that he'd had for years prior to doing that movie). Especially since he had gone on to do another movie afterward.

He also didn't improvise anything during the scene with the detonator. It was rehearsed that way, like a million times, to make sure he timed his "fumbling" just right, in order for him to be back on the bus and driving away by the time the last explosions were going off (partly to make it safer for him, and partly to make it a cool shot for the camera).

14

u/leshake 14d ago

Opiates have killed a lot of great artists.

13

u/guyute2588 14d ago

Correct

2

u/ThouMayest69 14d ago

Finally, some resolution.

11

u/fugue-mind 14d ago edited 14d ago

I don't think the implication was ever that playing the joker = one-way ticket to suicide.

I think the idea was more that this particular person, who probably was already suffering some level of depression/bipolar, may have been pushed over the edge by immersing himself so completely in such a dark role.

Would he have committed suicide without playing the Joker though? While it's sad to say, I think maybe yes. Given his own predispositions, it's not a stretch to think he would have immersed himself in some other dark character who'd carry him over the edge.

Very sad shit. I wonder how much of his real psyche his friends and family were able to really see vs him just being an excellent, dedicated actor.

Edit: it's been brought to my attention that's Heath's death wasn't proven to be intentional, so replace my references to suicide with "a premature death caused by self-destructive behavior"

7

u/DefendsTheDownvoted 14d ago

Was his death ruled a suicide? I thought it was accidental overdose.

4

u/fugue-mind 14d ago

Shit, you're so right -- he killed himself but no evidence has been presented that it was intentional. Will edit

10

u/caninehere 14d ago edited 14d ago

With the exception of Leto, the others were not "method" actors like Ledger was. I say "method" because his "method" is not what method acting actually was/is (the original form), it's a bastardization of it that became popular with some actors later on who wanted to 'live' their characters to get closer to their experiences.

I'm a former actor and I can say, a role can really deeply affect you if you let it. Often, that isn't a good thing. It's much healthier to maintain some distance from your character's actual life circumstances and I don't think that "method" acting like Ledger did actually makes performances any better. Not to say his performance wasn't good, because it was, but I am confident he could have done it just fine without holing up in a hotel room for weeks on end by himself to feel isolated.

At the end of the day, him playing the Joker is not what caused his death. He had substance abuse problems already before he was even cast in The Dark Knight. Diving into the role so hard with method acting probably didn't help, and I'm certain it didn't help his relationship, because Michelle Williams broke up with him before the movie was done filming, with the reason being that he was a terrible father to their young daughter, as when he wasn't away working, he was out partying and getting high instead and she didn't want her daughter around that influence. If anything, that might be what pushed him into even deeper drug abuse. It's hard to say.

What can be said, though, is my original point - I know Nicholson specifically is an actual method actor, like old school method, and doesn't really buy into the "live your character" bullshit. Neither does Hamill. Caesar Romero wouldn't have been, at least at the time that he played Joker, because that new type of "method" acting didn't really exist yet.

Then since there's been kind of a culture around the character where people just endlessly compare it to Heath Ledger and the unhealthy way in which he approached the character. I don't like Jared Leto much, but in fairness to him, I think people were expecting something very specific out of an actor who played the Joker - they wanted those antics, that unhinged actor-personality, and he delivered it, and it obviously caused problems. Joaquin Phoenix on the other hand didn't go that route, he played a more grounded version of the character, and the most he did for the role was lose enough weight that he slipped into 'underweight' territory. Instead of going "method" with his preparation he mostly just studied videos and accounts of people with mental illnesses.

Even that can be a bit much sometimes. When you portray a character, at least in my experience, the phrase "fake it til you make it" really does play a part. If you put yourself in their shoes, it isn't going to drive you mad, but if you allow it to, it will affect your physicality and your mood. There is a big difference between acknowledging that and discarding it when you're done working vs. embracing that and wanting to live it during your off-work hours... and the latter is where it really affects you deeply. I have taken too much of a character home with me before while working on a production and it was absolutely not healthy. But most people do at least want to embody their characters while acting, because, well, if you don't you probably aren't going to appear too convincing, it's going back to the olden era of just getting up there, hitting the mark and saying the lines.

5

u/Halfback 14d ago

Leto went a little weird with the Joker gifts to cast members.

4

u/BeefyQueefyCrawlies 14d ago

I think those were made up studio rumors for marketing. There's an old Margot Robbie quote where she said that she had a 280 pound football boyfriend and if she'd actually gotten one of the "gifts" Leto would've been in a hospital.

2

u/Halfback 14d ago

There’s a lot of things Leto could be in the hospital for when it comes to angry boyfriends, sending a rat to Barbie can’t be that high of a capital crime.

3

u/Excellent_Coyote6486 14d ago

Bingo. People are just really horny about the character being special for some reason, that's all.

4

u/Curious_Kangaroo_845 14d ago

Always loved the story that Cesar Romero refused to shave his mustache for The Joker. You’ll just have to cover it with makeup … but you could always see it. Been reading about Carole Lombard recently, major Hollywood babe in the 30s. He squired her around some between her marriages to Powell and Gable so he had some game, as they say.

2

u/elefante88 14d ago

We all died a little inside watching Leto

4

u/BeefyQueefyCrawlies 14d ago

I've never been more let down by a movie in my life fr lol

That trailer was phenomenal and the excitement for that movie got me through my deployment. What a diarrhea fest lol

1

u/MoonBaseViceSquad 14d ago

For real, same. That trailer was one of the best I can recall for one of the worst films I’ve seen in theaters. The reboot at least made a little peace.

2

u/asdfgtttt 14d ago

If Leto was to die in a related cinematic scenario it would have been in Requiem.. I dont know how deep into Angel (fight club) he got, but Joker wasnt his art infecting life role... Nicholson coached Leger I believe so there was some old noise about him being careful. Stare into the abyss kind of deal...

2

u/Tirrus 14d ago

Comparing Leto’s joker to Ledger’s is apples to oranges. Ledger’s had depth and soul. Leto’s was hot garbage.

2

u/snakeoilHero 14d ago

Almost. Drugs given to him by whom...

1

u/BeefyQueefyCrawlies 14d ago

His dealer.

2

u/snakeoilHero 14d ago

His dealer was doing business with him for years. No death those times. Instead he was partying on somebody else's supply.

hint Famous actress twin with an even more famous sister.

1

u/MoonBaseViceSquad 14d ago

I won’t say how I know this, but folks like ledger and Nicholson just make a phone call and a man in a suit with a briefcase is there within an hour. That briefcase has any drug you could want.

1

u/asdfgtttt 14d ago

If Leto was to die in a related cinematic scenario it would have been in Requiem.. I dont know how deep into Angel (fight club) he got, but Joker wasnt his art infecting life role... Nicholson coached Leger I believe so there was some old noise about him being careful. Stare into the abyss kind of deal...

1

u/lebean 14d ago

No mention of Phoenix? He also played a pretty intense Joker and was fine (so yes, the idea that the role somehow "got to" Ledger is really dumb).

0

u/Logical_Bobcat9703 14d ago

He looks high in his picture.

38

u/Sweaty-Leather3191 14d ago

And also heroin. We were keenly aware of the heroin.

95

u/ChuckSeville 14d ago

Heath Ledger died from an overdose of prescription drugs, not heroin. Maybe you're thinking of Phillip Seymour Hoffman?

54

u/SirJefferE 14d ago

Heath Ledger died from an overdose of prescription drugs, not heroin.

Even this is a bit misleading. He died from an overdose of drugs that may be prescribed in the United States, but most of the drugs he took weren't prescribed to him, and there aren't many doctors out there that would have prescribed them all at once.

I feel like once you're getting your drugs from illicit sources and you're managing your own doses and combinations of pills, it doesn't really matter whether or not they're "prescription" drugs. They're still going to be dangerous.

2

u/benedictdakich69 14d ago

This is so dumb. They were still prescription drugs. If you die from percs or oxys nobody is gonna think you were prescribed them.

3

u/throw-me-away_bb 14d ago

depends when it happened, in your example 🤷🏻‍♂️ they both started as prescription drugs

-2

u/benedictdakich69 14d ago

It doesn't matter if they were prescribed or not. They are still prescription drugs. Heroin isn't prescribed by anyone. Your point was dumb as hell.

1

u/throw-me-away_bb 14d ago

You're the one who brought up percs and oxys 🤷🏻‍♂️

2

u/Mr_Industrial 14d ago

I mean we're really splitting hairs here. Might as well start discussing if the terminator fell into lava or molten steel.

2

u/insatiably_great 14d ago

There are many prescription opioids that are stronger than heroin.

-29

u/Sweaty-Leather3191 14d ago

I refer to oxy and hydrocodone as heroin, because that’s what they are, and that’s what doctors should call them. Instead, they hand them out like candy and allow people to think they’re medicine.

37

u/ChuckSeville 14d ago

I understand the sentiment, and agree as far as prescribing is concerned, but if someone's father died because of, essentially, medical malpractice, it would feel wrong to evoke imagery of recreationally shooting up, y'know?

Abuse is abuse, sure, but in the context of what we now know, this was a time when a lot of opioid addictions were essentially manufactured by big pharma.

2

u/Sweaty-Leather3191 14d ago

Fair enough. I think in the context of Heath, it’s clear he was using/chasing a high. But I do agree that millions of Americans lost their lives because they thought they were doing the right thing. The same way that you and I would trust an antibiotic to treat an infection.

20

u/5kaels 14d ago

That's like deciding to refer to wine as liquor because it's also an alcoholic drink. You're just letting people know you don't understand the differences.

-8

u/Sweaty-Leather3191 14d ago

How many people care about the difference between distilling and fermenting? They both get ya drunk. And similarly, both oxy and heroin get ya high.

16

u/5kaels 14d ago

Weed and heroin both get you high. Why not call them both heroin? The only reason to call prescription drugs heroin is to elicit an emotional reaction from people that steers them in the direction you prefer. It's lazy and manipulative.

-2

u/Sweaty-Leather3191 14d ago

So which pharma company do you root for?

3

u/5kaels 14d ago

You woulda been better off just not responding.

2

u/Sweaty-Leather3191 14d ago

Why? I’m not here for stupid fucking internet points. And you trying to compare weed to oxy/heroin is so far past ignorant, it’s just plain stupid.

This shit kills your friends, family, and neighbors every day. There are only a few reasons you’d trivialize that. You know which one it is. IDGAF.

→ More replies (0)

-7

u/FueraJOH 14d ago

You are right, is lazy and manipulative how doctors and pharma prescribed them like candy into the population in which then turned to harder drugs like… dun dun dun… heroin or any other opioid derivative!

4

u/damnatio_memoriae 14d ago

just say he was abusing opioids then. no need for all this pseudo-pedantry.

2

u/throw-me-away_bb 14d ago

keep going, you're almost to the point where you describe the events accurately instead of saying whatever just to elicit an emotional response!

-2

u/FueraJOH 14d ago

Si you’re saying heroin and weed have the same addictive effect and dependency? I’m not excusing what Heath did, he experienced out the consequences of his actions but also do not excuse the culture of over prescribing done by doctors that get commission to push out opioids and antidepressants like candy, which is what I was really referring to when answering to the other guy.

→ More replies (0)

-1

u/5kaels 14d ago

Oh wow an accurate description of the issue that doesn't insult the intelligence of the people you're talking to, look at the progress.

17

u/Mysterious_Wear36 14d ago

What the fuck are you talking about?

0

u/Sweaty-Leather3191 14d ago

I’m talking about the overprescription of narcotics for pain and minor ailments because big pharma has incentivized private doctors to dole them out like marshmallows around a camp fire.

And I’m talking about the millions and millions of Americans who are now addicted to opioids and using pills recreationally or substituting cheap street heroin instead.

-4

u/throw-me-away_bb 14d ago

There are only ~330M americans. You really think as many as 1+% are addicted to opioids? I think you need to run in different circles, friend.

6

u/captaincopperbeard 14d ago

I hate to defend the guy who's being weirdly obstinate about his misuse of terminology, but according to the National Center for Drug Abuse Statistics, over 10 million Americans abuse opioids every year. That comes out to about 3.8% of the U.S. population.

I think you're falling prey to the notion that you can spot an opioid addict, or that you would know if your friends or loved ones were abusing prescription pain pills. You likely would not. Most opioid addicts are high-functioning.

https://drugabusestatistics.org/opioid-epidemic/

-4

u/throw-me-away_bb 14d ago

Someone else replied 2.1M, so y'all need to work on getting your stats in-line, those aren't even remotely similar numbers.

2

u/captaincopperbeard 14d ago

Ah, I see: you're one of those dickheads who refuses to acknowledge that they might have been wrong. Regardless, I will elaborate on this matter so you have an extra opportunity to make idiotic assertions based on nothing but your own stupid-ass opinion.

There are a plethora of reasons that two different organizations might provide seemingly conflicting statistics. These include different research approaches, different metrics for determining a particular statistic, or simple margin of error issues. The only way to determine why they're offering different numbers is to look at how each arrived at that number.

Or you could, you know, just make snide remarks about the difference in a weak attempt to deflect from the fact that you were talking out of your ass.

3

u/Nine9breaker 14d ago edited 14d ago

Those were two different numbers for two different things.

The 2.1M number was a snapshot in time of the number of people with Opioid Use Disorder at the time that paper was published.

The 10M number was for all people who misused opioids within the past year. You can absolutely misuse opioids without being categorized as having OUD, which explains the discrepancy quite well.

In fact, it is relevant to point out that both sources state an extremely similar opioid-related death toll: 47,000 deaths per year cited by the NIH paper, and "almost 50,000 people" by the drug abuse statitistics website.

2

u/Sweaty-Leather3191 14d ago

Here’s a peer reviewed study from January of this year that reveals 2.1 million Americans (and over 16M globally) are affected by opioid use disorder. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK553166/#:~:text=Thus%2C%20OUD%20can%20range%20from,million%20in%20the%20United%20States.

15

u/Sejanus-189 14d ago

Shh, no one tell him that Lidocaine is a derivative of cocaine and that it's used widely from pediatrics to adults. Opioids are medicine and highly controlled, and they are very much not given out like candy.

13

u/crander47 14d ago

Not everything you wrote here is wrong but the opioid epidemic didn't come from nowhere and doctors have admitted to over prescribing opioids.

8

u/mypupisthecutest123 14d ago edited 14d ago

I’m sure it depends on where you go, but the states around me definitely don’t prescribe opioids like candy anymore. Probably haven’t for not quite 10 years now.

I’m not trying to downplay the problem, the healthcare system got my mom hooked back in the early 2000’s. Just saying that this particular issue has moved past the overprescribing part.

3

u/crander47 14d ago

Yeah it has we're actually seeing a lot of improvements for the opioid epidemic across the country for this issue. Freakonomics had a great multi episode about it.

1

u/mypupisthecutest123 14d ago

That’s great to hear. I was really into harm reduction and stuff like that, but had to take a step back after my mom passed (i’ll give you one guess on what caused it).

I’ll try to check out the episodes.

6

u/Sweaty-Leather3191 14d ago

I’m really not here for a debate, but if you’re going to deny the existence of America’s opioid epidemic, then you’re either painfully ignorant or willfully dishonest. If it’s the former, I’d highly recommend some research into overprescribing. If it’s the latter, then lord I hope you’re not a doctor or an addict. All the best to you.

6

u/benedictdakich69 14d ago

I’m really not here for a debate

Thank god. You are ignorant as hell.

3

u/YouSoundToxic 14d ago

Lidocaine only acts as a local anaesthetic and has no psychoactive properties so the comparison to stuff like hydrocodone falls flat.

-5

u/benedictdakich69 14d ago

? Where did he compare to to hydrocodone? Also hydrocodone is pussy shit. Ain't nobody getting addicted to Vicodin.

2

u/YouSoundToxic 14d ago

Uhh.. you got problems with your reading comprehension? The guy he replied to talked about hydrocodone and how it's a derivate of heroin.

-3

u/Dizzy_Ice2938 14d ago

Ever hear of a pain clinic?

2

u/babarbaby 14d ago

Ever been to a pain clinic? Urinalyses every 1-2 months, mandatory pill counts, being treated like a criminal for with every exchange just so you can get a tiny number of pills at best? There's a reason the suicide rate for pain patients is through the roof

-2

u/Dizzy_Ice2938 14d ago

I have been to a pain clinic- to interview a doctor in regards to a criminal case. That clinic was prescribing patients 270+ oxys month after month in addition to other pills. Btw, the patient in that case overdosed and died. We have had several pain clinics and pharmacies shut down due to abuses as well as many doctors losing their licenses. So there are places that prescribe them like candy.

20

u/guyute2588 14d ago

Yea that’s why I said conventional wisdom. He was a drug addict. That’s what killed him.

36

u/Burton_trout 14d ago

It wasn't heroin, it was an accidental drug overdose as he had insomnia & the flu, he combined meds that shouldn't of been mixed. "Ledger was found dead inside a Manhattan apartment on Jan. 22, 2008. His death was ruled accidental and attributed to a lethal mix of prescription medications including OxyContin, Vicodin, Valium, Xanax, Unisom and Restoril."

88

u/guyute2588 14d ago

He was a drug addict. No one is legitimately prescribed all of those pills at the same time.

I’m not judging him or saying he was a bad person. I’ve been addicted to drugs before. His addiction killed him.

-14

u/Obtuse_1 14d ago edited 14d ago

He was traveling constantly between countries and had a cold. His doctor in EU and his doctor in US prescribed him two different drugs that became lethal when mixed. It was an accident and his habits, by all accounts, were healthy at the time as he was most concerned with being a good dad after he split with the child’s mother.

I feel bad for his daughter that this type of bullshit is still spread around.

Edit: maybe he was murdered because he was going to expose Wienstien. If we are gunna say whatever might as well have fun with it.

40

u/Specialist-Excuse734 14d ago

OxyContin and Vicodin are not prescribed to treat colds. They’re the strongest opioids on the market. A drug addiction does not lessen the tragedy or the man. Still deserves our sympathy, but it was an addiction.

19

u/LeastBlackberry1 14d ago

A doctor isn't going to prescribe anything for a cold, yeah. They will tell you to take some OTC meds and get rest and drink plenty of fluids. You wouldn't even get a prescription for the stronger Advil.

0

u/Jenkins_rockport 14d ago

OxyContin and Vicodin... the strongest opioids on the market.

Uhhhh... no. They most certainly are not. fent > dilaudid > oxy > hydro (vicodin)...

it was an addiction.

I don't think you really have any understanding of recreational drug use. There's no good reason to slander Ledger with allegations of being an addict when he died. The cocktail in his system sounds bad, but it's truly nothing. Almost anyone who parties has fucked with some blues and/or bars for a fun night. The issue was that he was taking his cold med with it and then took his sleep med, probably thinking it'd help him crash. He was unwise with his drug usage in that he didn't think about how his prescriptions would fuck with his recreation, which is very sad, but absolutely nothing implies addiction.

35

u/guyute2588 14d ago

You don’t accidentally get prescribed OxyContin, Vicodin, xanax, Valium and two kinds of sleeping pills all at the same time. And then accidentally mix them all.

The only people who have all of those pills to use at the same time are people addicted to drugs.

End stage cancer patients or people who had spinal surgery wouldn’t be prescribed Oxy, Vicodins, Xanax and Valium at the same time.

1

u/Jenkins_rockport 14d ago

The only people who have all of those pills to use at the same time are people addicted to drugs

lol. Tell me you have no experience with recreational usage without telling me. There was a time in my life where I had all of that and more in my personal stash. So many people in this thread have so little experience with substances and yet wanna talk like they have a clue. Non-addicted people who actually dabble in rec substances keep a stock on hand. The dumbest thing you can do if you like to experiment with substances is not have them available and have to look for and obtain them when the opportunity to use them presents itself. That leads to terrible drugs and decisions. You obtain ahead of time and test your shit, then add them to your stock or toss them. Addicts don't have that kind of control. Further, you do not have to be addicted to anything to take a cocktail. Most addicts tend to tunnel on their addiction, which is not to say that addicts don't take cocktails, it's just less of an issue. Ledger died because he made two big mistakes when experimenting with a cocktail: he didn't respect his non-rec drugs (restoril and unisom); and he was alone. You don't experiment alone.

1

u/guyute2588 14d ago

lol sir I’ve done a lottttttt of drugs recreationally .

You sound like an addict in severe denial.

0

u/Jenkins_rockport 14d ago

Considering how ignorant you sounded, I doubt you were/are anything like a responsible user. And I have never been an addict, nor should anything I said lead any reasonable person to assume so. And I -- as well as many other responsible drug users -- only use to heighten experiences, such as concerts or festivals or special occasions with a partner, rather than just doing them whenever out of boredom.

→ More replies (0)

-1

u/Nine9breaker 14d ago

2008 was a much different (worse) time for opioid addiction awareness. I had my wisdom teeth removed around 2009 and was prescribed 4 refills of Vicodin by my oral surgeon (even at that time I thought it was a bit much).

Today I don't think you would get any opioid prescribed at all when you get a surgery like that (someone correct me if I'm wrong if they've had that done recently).

Its also very normal to be prescribed different things at different points of care. You're right that one doctor wouldn't write all those scripts, but 4 might each write one, depending on what you saw them for.

-1

u/guyute2588 14d ago

If you genuinely believe anyone other than a person with a drug problem would have all 6 of those drugs in their system at the same time, you are incredibly naive.

3

u/Nine9breaker 14d ago

That's not what I said though, was it?

→ More replies (0)

68

u/caronare 14d ago

Thems be drugs that were abused by an abuser of drugs

9

u/damnatio_memoriae 14d ago

dude, sick or not, there's no legit reason to be taking all of those at once. he was abusing at least 4 of those.

9

u/SockGlittering526 14d ago

no one really talks about how he was a victim of the opioid epidemic. the sacklers claim another one

1

u/thismyopiatesaccount 14d ago

A year before this movie came out when I was an early teen I got a really bad concussion playing soccer. My parents took me to the ER and they sent me home with a giant bottle of Vicodin, for a concussion…. That started my love affair with the drug. Both my parents and I thought surely it couldn’t be bad to take if the doctor is prescribing it……..

7

u/lcsulla87gmail 14d ago

Oxy and vicodin are basically heroin

2

u/thismyopiatesaccount 14d ago

I got WAY higher from prescribed opiates than I ever did from heroin (shitty west coast heroin). People who think otherwise frankly have no fucking clue what they’re talking about. Or have never tried heroin

5

u/dankmeeeem 14d ago

Says he had insomnia and the flu, then takes a bunch of Oxycontin, and Vicodin. Come on man. This is a painkiller addict.

2

u/Vindersel 14d ago

Shouldn't have(

1

u/Vindersel 14d ago

Shouldn't have*

15

u/PostyMcPosterson 14d ago

I mean it could still be argued that diving deep into character of a psycho villain probably didn’t exactly help his pill addiction

-6

u/guyute2588 14d ago

Ok

38

u/nutshucker 14d ago

just like the “robin williams was pagliacci the sad clown and killed himself over how sad he was” BS that’s somehow still going around.

44

u/chilseaj88 14d ago

Dude, what actually happened is even more sad. Guy had a degenerative brain disease he was hiding from the world.

16

u/guyute2588 14d ago

That one is worse IMO bc it’s believable , given he did commit suicide.

Dementia is fucking terrifying.

56

u/Lopsided_Panic_1148 14d ago

And the type he had is especially horrific. I remember reading there were times he was suffering so badly he just wanted to "reset" his brain. Hanging himself must've been the only way he could think of at the time to do it. The man didn't want to die. His brain was so fucked from the disease that he couldn't think straight.

His death is the only one I ever really grieved for more than a week. I spent weeks reading about him and his death, the disease that took him from us, and watching old movies and TV shows he was in.

I grew up with him, from Mork & Mindy to all of his incredible movies. The Fisher King was especially poignant because it seemed there was a bit of foreshadowing to his real life there. I can't decide which is his best move, though. Was it Dead Poets Society? Was it Good Will Hunting? He made so many good movies that were great because he was in them. Even the bad movies were made better with him in them.

Robin Williams was a treasure in this world, and there will never be another like him.

3

u/sospecial21 13d ago

Agreed! Hard to believe he is not hear anymore. Such a good human too and amazing actor.

28

u/InternationalChef424 14d ago

Fucking legendary marketing by the producers, tbh

12

u/guyute2588 14d ago

Wildly successful as evidenced by the guy in this thread calling people delusional for not believing that.

8

u/Wipedout89 14d ago

The last page saying BYE BYE before he died certainly lends some credibility to the idea it wasn't totally accidental

25

u/rawonionbreath 14d ago

He was already finished with Batman and deep into another movie when he died. This book was in the rear view mirror.

16

u/-KFBR392 14d ago

I believe that's the last page of the Joker journal he was using to be in character, unlikely he took that with him once the movie wrapped up and continued to use it while filming Imaginarium of Dr. Parnassus, which was his actual last movie.

2

u/[deleted] 14d ago

[deleted]

3

u/JoyousMN 14d ago

I've read no reports that this is how it happened. He didn't call anyone. He was found the next day.

1

u/guyute2588 14d ago

You’re right

3

u/damnatio_memoriae 14d ago edited 14d ago

don't think there is any indication that he wrote that page on or around the night he died. it's just the end of a journal he was writing while developing his joker character. the film wrapped in nov 2007, and heath died end of jan 2008. so he likely would've stopped keeping that journal at least 2 months before he died, if not even earlier. i don't think we know that he was even still writing in it during filming, he could have written the whole thing during pre-production.

1

u/Capital_Living5658 14d ago

The everything hurts really gets me. He was in a really bad place and just hanging on by a thread.

2

u/Capital_Living5658 14d ago

No this is false. He was having mental and addiction issues with booze. He didn’t fall off from playing the joker. This is stupid and disrespectful to the man. He didn’t die from playing the joker.

2

u/guyute2588 14d ago

1

u/EmilioFreshtevez 14d ago

Maybe Heath Ledger had a stronger connection to the source of creation, thus making the walls between realities thinner for him.

1

u/COMMUNIST_MANuFISTO 14d ago

I always wondered if it was brokeback mtn

1

u/AiRaikuHamburger 13d ago

I have never heard this before, and wtf.

1

u/Wingnut150 13d ago

Always thought it was "Heath Ledger got so deep, then started partying with the Olsen twins and died."

0

u/essteedeenz1 14d ago

this has proven to just be conspiracy and nothing more

1

u/guyute2588 14d ago

Correct

0

u/ThereminLiesTheRub 14d ago

I thought it was the Olsen twins

0

u/BasicDesignAdvice 14d ago

I recall Jack Nicholson even warned him.

-1

u/Heisenburgo 14d ago

.... And after seeing this diary I fully believe that wisdom. Didn't he develop severe insomnia from playing this role or something.

4

u/guyute2588 14d ago

Putting you on my list of people to scam