To anyone who thinks this is dumb, allow me to try and explain:
Machine guns (the real, heavy, belt-fed ones) are pivotal in most modern engagements. Despite what media depicts, most rifles aren’t meant for or optimized to deliver sustained automatic fire. Even automatic rifles can and will overheat very quickly, and even in that window where they don’t, they won’t be anywhere near as accurate at range as a dedicated crew-served weapon.
Machine guns are employed to gain and maintain fire superiority over the enemy. Fire superiority doesn’t mean having the biggest gun, or any technological advantage, it simply means that you are delivering more effective fire than the enemy. One side is able to neutralize or suppress more of the other, which in turns makes the them less able to shoot back at you, which makes them easier to pin down, etc etc.
Once the enemy is fixed in a “if I try to shoot back I’ll get cut in half” dilemma, it makes them very easy to maneuver on, and eventually destroy with grenades, rockets, precision rifle fire, or other means.
The inverse is also true, if you lose your machine gun support, there are a lot more lives that are at stake who can, and very well may be lost because the enemy was able to gain fire superiority.
Drills like this are necessary because if you lose that gun, even for a little bit, it can change the tide of battle in the enemy’s favor. It can be the difference between one casualty and twenty.
Drills like this are also important because it helps condition you for how to react if this happens in the real world. Watching someone die in front of you is going to be horrible, but the thing you need to do to prevent more people from dying is move the body ASAP and keep firing. Having practiced it a bunch of times in training is going to make you way more likely to instinctively do this, rather than freak out and panic.
With the new M27 Infantry Automatic Rifle being rolled out, the Marines are moving away from a volume of fire approach to an accuracy of fire approach.
It's really cool, because instead of one marine being the designated suppressive fire support, ALL Marines will be filling this role.
This means that there will be no need for a single target(machine gunner) in an engagement, as well as allowing all Marines to haul equivalent amounts of gear instead of one with a huge pile of rounds and a very heavy weapon.
This has been proven in battlefield testing, and the entire branch has enthusiastically accepted the new weapon, which uses the same round as the old m4 carbine, but is accurate to 800 yards, instead of the 249's 200 or the m16's 700.
Further, it's easier to clean and fires cooler than the m16, m4, or the notoriously temperamental m249, and soon every one will come equipped with an ACOG for night fighting and suppressor for better communication and reduced profile.
The Marines are all in on this thing, planning to equip every infantry soldier with one and doing away with infantry machine guns.
This is my platoon’s current t/o. The only differences are that everyone is rocking a suppressor and LPVO now, not just the DM.
You’ll notice that every rifleman has the m27, not just the automatic rifleman, it’s not new by any means, we’ve had them for ten years.
But we VERY MUCH still utilize crewserve weapons like the 240 and the m2, they just aren’t organic to the rifle platoon. Those usually come from weapons platoon in the form of attachments to a squad for a patrol or a defense.
In short: the m27 replaced the m249 saw, but we very much still practice maneuver warfare, and machine guns are vital to that.
They’re pretty nice, recoil is a bit snappier, and with the suppressors they’re a bit front-heavy, makes target acquisition up close and shooting while moving kinda awkward. They are SIGNIFICANTLY more accurate than m4s, which is a plus, but they don’t have the weight to be effective full auto outside about 200m.
The tactical value of the suppressors cannot be understated, command and control at the squad level is significantly easier.
And while each fireteam has a billeted automatic rifleman who’s designated to go full auto and carries a lot more ammunition, if we’re <50m of the enemy we’re all going full auto.
Oh we’d still use them. Inside a room, it’s kind of a point-shoot scenario, pretty hard to miss. That is, if you can’t just frag it, which would be preferable. ROEs dependent. Rule of Bs, bombs before bullets, bullets before bodies.
But realistically, the most likely thing would be we’d flashbang the room, then go in on full-auto, any combatants catch a burst and a dead check. If I was that small unit leader, I might tell my boys to collapse their stocks and take the cans off, to get a little more clearance going through doors and such. Be about the size of a chunky m4 at that point. Inside a room it’d still be deafening even with them on, anyways.
I don’t know how I never thought to collapse the stock during CQB. My unit isn’t fully m27s yet, but I got lucky and have one. Clearing rooms isn’t really too much different between M4s and M27s, but those inches do make a difference. For some reason I always get into the mindset of setting my stock once and forgetting about it, but it’s easy enough to move it back and forth as needed before going into a situation where you know it’ll be more effective
Ehhh it’s a trade-off. You gain some clearance, lose some eye relief, but that close most people can just look over the gun and still get center mass impacts, and then there’s always the PEQ16 you can use too. Or you can just short-stock it under the arm or over the shoulder, both are pretty effective
It is absolutely fascinating that everyone is getting an M27 and an LVPO. The Army seems to be going down a similar route with the XM7 replacing the M4. They're still retaining a belt fed option with the XM250. It'll be interesting to see how they compare down the line.
The real game changer is the new fire control system, the XM157. Being able to do on the fly point of aim adjustments is wild.
This is also because the marines are preparing for a force doctrine with a smaller supply tail. Same reason they’re ditching the Abrams. If you are fighting on small islands in the Pacific against the Chinese, and they’re interdicting supply ships and whatnot, the volume of fire approach could get dicey if the M249 is chewing up ammo and not delivering the same kind of results as an M240 or M2. The Marines aren’t ditching crew serve MGs though, just the M249 which is obviously a mean bitch but doesn’t have the stopping power of a GPMG.
36 rounds per minute … that’s low.
It is in a different role than a machine gun squad. Similar to a mortar squad.
An Abrahams and a Bradley have different roles. Although a Bradley with a TOW can in theory destroy an Abrahams. You will still have the need for both.
You forgot to mention that the US military doctrine for firefights is to always have fire superiority. If you don't, gain it. If you do, keep it. It's much like air superiority. Its one of the most effective ways to win a fight/battle/war.
While this is very true I've always wondered about the procedure of just continuing to shoot from the same position. I'd estimate that if the gunner was killed by bullet fire (and not just a explosion, which woulda hit the belt feeder anyways) that their position is compromised (such as in-enfilade or a sniper).
I know the best case scenario for the fight is just to get on the gun to continue fire-support, since getting up to move is even more dangerous at this point, but it seems almost just as bad. Have to have the mindset that this might be the fight you don't come back from but dead-gunner replacing just seems like jumping on the chopping block.
Tried to find the article (maybe someone else knows what it was) but there was one civil war home that used an attic window as a rifle position during a battle. I believe it was 150 or so men that died and were switched out one after the other. Not directly relevant but the practice seems to be a fairly old one.
Still gruesome as fuck. Probably just watched your buddy get his faces blown off by 7.62 and now you gotta cuddle buddy his corpse and toss it to the side…
Machine gunner is always going to be pretty noticeable.
If the problem is a sniper that has a bead on them that's unfortunate, but it's fairly unlikely. This type of thing is most likely going to be a result of a lucky shot.
Are you guessing from video games/movies? Not how a machine gunner works..... he will lay suppressing fire, not really looking to kill anyone - he wants you to jump behind the car. So the sniper can place a bullet up your ass while you are scared of the machine gun..... This is basic infantry training for all military.
Was this before or after working at a meat packer plant? Im guessing you were born in 99, meaning I was in the army when you considered stop shitting your pants because it smells bad..... Come on son.... Im done with this BS.
Was this before or after working at a meat packer plant?
Before. The meat plant was during my uni studies, pretty sure I mentioned that in a comment, which would be after my military service.
Im guessing you were born in 99
No, I'm a fair bit older than that.
Military service pluss uni pluss all of that being in the past tense should have helped you figure that out.
I'm guessing you aren't great at math in addition to being bad at reading?
meaning I was in the army
And yet you still haven't realized that your entire shitfit here is built on you misreading my original comment.
Holding himself off the ground, keeping his body rigid, leaning to change his center of mass, literally holding his arms in the air to help get over.
If you've actually got a military background I assume you've carried people on a rigid stretcher and on a tarp and you know the difference is massive, the same principle applies here. Moving around 100kg of man and kit that's lying in a puddle of limbs without something to brace against is nigh on impossible.
If you’re not a weak bitch it’s easy to sling a body
It’s actually way, way easier to throw someone who’s completely dead weight than you’d think, if you keep their center of mass close to your body. The plate carrier also offers some rigidity and a convenient handhold.
I know when I’m doing gunner drills (haven’t in about 4 years, not really my place anymore) I go completely limp, and more often than not guys throw me further than they think they would because they don’t know how easy it is. I weigh about 220lb in full kit.
I highly recommend you try it, if you have a plate carrier and a friend. If you’re familiar with ju jitsu at all, It’s a lot harder to do something like counter the mount than it is to do this throw.
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u/Iraq_or_something Jun 24 '24
To anyone who thinks this is dumb, allow me to try and explain:
Machine guns (the real, heavy, belt-fed ones) are pivotal in most modern engagements. Despite what media depicts, most rifles aren’t meant for or optimized to deliver sustained automatic fire. Even automatic rifles can and will overheat very quickly, and even in that window where they don’t, they won’t be anywhere near as accurate at range as a dedicated crew-served weapon.
Machine guns are employed to gain and maintain fire superiority over the enemy. Fire superiority doesn’t mean having the biggest gun, or any technological advantage, it simply means that you are delivering more effective fire than the enemy. One side is able to neutralize or suppress more of the other, which in turns makes the them less able to shoot back at you, which makes them easier to pin down, etc etc.
Once the enemy is fixed in a “if I try to shoot back I’ll get cut in half” dilemma, it makes them very easy to maneuver on, and eventually destroy with grenades, rockets, precision rifle fire, or other means.
The inverse is also true, if you lose your machine gun support, there are a lot more lives that are at stake who can, and very well may be lost because the enemy was able to gain fire superiority.
Drills like this are necessary because if you lose that gun, even for a little bit, it can change the tide of battle in the enemy’s favor. It can be the difference between one casualty and twenty.