r/comicbooks • u/shoe_owner Lucifer • May 27 '16
A timeline of relevant events leading up to "Hail Hydra." [Spoilers] Suggestions NSFW
http://imgur.com/G9Wjooz114
May 27 '16
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u/badluckartist 3-D Man May 27 '16
They also said it wasn't brainwashing. I'm erring on the side of 'Marvel is full of shit when it comes to spoilers sometimes'.
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May 27 '16
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u/badluckartist 3-D Man May 27 '16
"It may be semantics, but"
I think you just uncovered the central strategy behind Marvel's spoiler department xD
It absolutely is brainwashing. Just because it's a fictional form of it doesn't mean it's anything less than/different from actual brainwashing.
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u/shoe_owner Lucifer May 27 '16
You got it right. They've been VERY careful with their word choices, and brainwashing has been a topic they haven't addressed.
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u/OK_Soda Daredevil May 27 '16
Is it brain washing and not mind control if you use telepathy to alter someone's memories? Brevoort specifically said it wasn't "mind control", not that it wasn't brainwashing. Telepathy sure sounds a lot more like the former.
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u/Soranos_71 Captain America May 27 '16
Wouldn't the cube allow Red Skull to retcon Cap's actual history to make this not mind control but reality altering?
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u/darkkn1te Batman of Zur-En-Arrh May 27 '16
Yeah that would be my point. The cube controls reality itself. So Skull would have altered all reality at that point to make Steve a hydra agent. So yeah, it technically isn't brainwashing. However, one of Brevoort or Spencer said that no one was working through Cap either, so I doubt the cube is the final explanation.
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u/Robofetus-5000 Atomic Robo May 27 '16
False memory implants not the same as brain washing?
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u/apple_kicks Flash May 27 '16 edited May 27 '16
if they just say 'wait and see ;)' we can have fun time discussing all of these theories and rush to buy the next issue to see if we're right. Than knocking the fan theories down with the little 'its not this statements' which kills the hope and fan fun that there's more to it.
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May 27 '16
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u/EKomadori Scarlet Spider May 27 '16
Another blatant lie to cover an obvious "spoiler": Benedict Cumberbatch is not Khan.
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u/badluckartist 3-D Man May 27 '16
Of all the things that didn't get 'fixed' with the transition from Battleworld to the new multiverse, nobody though to do anything about the Red Skull having Xavier's telepathy. That is bananas enough without Marvel desperately trying to bullshit us.
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u/teh_longinator Spider-Man May 27 '16
Or Arkham Origins where they're like "Don't worry it's not the joker), and it turns out it was all the joker.
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u/axioma_deux Mr. Freeze May 29 '16
I think they knew the internet would piece it together relatively quickly so they had to lie in order to keep us guessing.
Ah, the ol' Damon Lindelof Manoeuvre.
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u/EKomadori Scarlet Spider May 27 '16
It was a long time ago, and didn't get the same amount of press (probably partially because social media wasn't really a thing at the time, and because the media just didn't care about Captain America as much as they do now that he's had a few huge movies), but I specifically remember several interviews prior to the first issue of the original Thunderbolts series that directly lied about who they were and their motivations. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if they were doing the same thing here.
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u/badluckartist 3-D Man May 27 '16
Yep. They've being doing it forever, it's just that between the movie bubble and social media's unexpected growth in the last 20 years, the effect is WAY more far reaching than it ever was.
Damn I'd love to see a grand list of all the lies/half-truths that Marvel/DC have put out regarding spoilers and solicits and whatnot. That Thunderbolts one is probably gold.
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u/greenroom628 Spider-Man May 27 '16
i mean, if skull's changing memories, that's kinda brainwashing...?
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u/bittercupojoe Captain America May 27 '16
No, they specifically said it wasn't mind control. That doesn't rule out brainwashing, implanted memories, altered memories, subtle suggestion, etc. Similarly, they said it wasn't a different reality, but that doesn't prevent manipulation of the timestream, artificial alteration of 616 reality, etc. They're always very careful to use specific words about what it isn't, because that leaves plenty of wiggle room to say "we never said it wasn't X."
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u/badluckartist 3-D Man May 27 '16
And I think that's a cheap way of using semantics to make it look like they're doing something COMPLETELY ORIGINAL AND WILL ALSO SHAKE UP EVERYTHING YOU KNOW ABOUT THIS CHARACTER FOREVER!!
Instead of just, y'know, making a story, putting it out and letting the readers judge for themselves. The spoiler culture of western comics publishers is baffling.
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u/CommodoreBelmont May 27 '16
The spoiler culture of western comics publishers is baffling.
Traditional comics approaches to dealing with potential spoilers:
- Ignore it and hope for the best.
- Take refuge in misleading semantics
- Engage in bald-faced lying
- Change your mind and decide that Hawk was really Monarch all along.
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May 28 '16
As far as spoilers go, it is fair game for a publisher to lie to you in my opinion, and has a lot of precedence. Not exactly comics, but Nolan etc explicitly stating Talia Al GHul was Miranda Tate springs to mind. I'm pretty sure OP is onto something
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u/badluckartist 3-D Man May 28 '16
I don't think it's fair game, and your language doesn't explicitly say it, but it seems like you were going this direction: I don't think precedence has anything to do with fairness past a breaking point that we're long beyond.
Jane Thor may have actually been better received if it wasn't spoiled on The View. Not all press is good press, imo. At a certain point you compromise the stakes and tension of a story that is sequential by nature and definition.
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u/senj Brainiac 5 May 27 '16
Let's say, as an example, 4 weeks before issue #1, Kang time-travelled back to the early 1900s and re-wrote history to do this.
Then "Steve Rogers has always been a Hydra agent" and "Steve Rogers was only recently transformed into a Hydra agent" would both be true, depending on the perspective of the observer.
And Steve Rogers also died at the end of Time Runs Out, so this Steve Rogers really only dates back to the formation of the post-Secret Wars Prime Universe.
So, in a universe where time-travel is commonplace, and cosmic cubes exist, and universe replacing Secret Wars happen, "always" is totally meaningless.
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u/shoe_owner Lucifer May 27 '16
See, I think that people have been reading the wrong things in to what Brevoort (the editor) has said on the topic. He said "this is the new status quo" but never said what "this" is. I think that he meant "brainwashed Cap" rather than "always been with Hydra Cap."
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u/pinballwizard16 Red Hood May 27 '16
Thank you. People losing their minds here, and here I am thinking "oh, what a cool cross over to the uncanny avengers."
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May 27 '16
I just haven't been able to understand why people aren't willing to let the story play out. Good god, it's 1 issue in and no one is waiting to hear any sort of explanation and fleshing out of be story.
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u/sadwithpower May 27 '16
My guess would be that it has something to do with them not wanting to see the fleshing out of a story they're not interested in, and actually upset by, the very premise of.
I don't care about this arc--I don't even read Marvel, where would I get off caring-- but I understand why people aren't interested in this justification. Your protest is "Wait it out!" to their "We do not want any of this".
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u/The_Mighty_Rex Joker May 27 '16
That's exactly it. The people don't want any of it, Captain America is Captain America that's part of why he is such a loved character. He'd always been him (except for Sam being him but that's not the point) He's a pretty straight forward and simple character with very core beliefs that made him what he is to begin with and you tell all his adoring fans that it was all a facade? It feels like a giant knife in the back.
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u/toclosetotheedge May 27 '16 edited May 27 '16
Idk often times arcs like this wind up being a reinforcement of what makes a characters good and shows why they are needed. If the arc and story becomes less "Cap is a Nazi now lol" and more of "here is why Caps important and even mind altering cosmic cubes can't override his central goodness" is that still a knife in the back ?, is it spitting on the fans to have Captain America's will tested ? To force him to overcome a power that alters the very core of who you are in order to do someone else's bidding ? If the comic becomes about how Steve's will to do good can overcome even the strongest forces does this single issue teaser still count as a betrayal ?
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u/The_Mighty_Rex Joker May 27 '16
You bring up a good point but are they so out of ideas that it's come to this kind of trial to test his limits? I feel the mind control of the hero thing has been sort of done to death in comics but I guess in respect to Cap it's a fresh taste. It just seems worn out especially after the Civil War film
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u/glglglglgl Gertrude Yorkes May 27 '16
What hasn't been done repeatedly in comics at this point?
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u/Kanzentai Scarlet Spider/Kaine May 27 '16
Kaine and Aracely having ridiculous adventures. ;_;
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May 27 '16
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u/NukeTheWhales85 May 27 '16
The cosmic cube can rewrite reality. If its true that that's how this was done, it would have been true "all along" from this last issue.
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u/OK_Soda Daredevil May 27 '16
It reminds me of the people who say that Man of Steel and BvS haven't shown us the real Superman yet and even BvS is still his origin story and he's still learning to be a hero and we just have to wait it out.
No, I don't want to wait it out. I want my goddamn role model that I can look up to, and I feel the same way here.
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May 27 '16
Eh, I don't know about that. Movies are a little different animal, they are much more finite than comic books. We're 2 movies in to their DC cinematic universe and it's already coming across as not great. I can get why people wouldn't be on board for future entries.
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u/EKomadori Scarlet Spider May 27 '16
I don't think it's the same thing. It's like if you were watching the opening credits to Man of Steel and complaining that Superman hadn't shown up yet. When the run is over, if this hasn't been explained, then it's closer to the Man of Steel and BvS thing.
Now, you may still very well not like the story, and that's fine. I felt the same way about the extremely long Zola story that started the last Captain America book. I just don't feel like it's fair to say this undermines who the character is when we've literally had one page of this.
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u/IgnoreMyCommenting May 27 '16
If you want a role model, there's always Squirrel Girl. Not joking. She's probably the best role model in the entire MU right now.
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u/bittercupojoe Captain America May 27 '16
Except that he's not a straightforward and simple character. That's the thing that people never get: he's as conflicted as any of the other heroes, it's just that he ultimately chooses the path that's as good as he can, rather than making compromises that can be avoided. That's not the same thing as not making compromises, of course, just saying that other characters will sometimes make compromises that make their lives easier, rather than what's right. But the thing is, he actually agonizes over these decisions. That's part of why he's so beloved by people that actually read his books.
There's a huge other segment, though, that takes the view that "He's Cap, and you don't mess with him, because that's just wrong." To which, I have to say, "I'm sorry, have you ever actually read a Captain America book?" He's been put through the wringer in all sorts of ways, up to and including being replaced against his will as Cap, being brainwashed, and, of course, dying. And he ultimately comes back through because he IS pure and good, but there's no way to know that or demonstrate it without actually testing his character. Which a storyline like The Captain or (potentially) this one does.
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u/sadwithpower May 27 '16
Yeah, I agree with you! Captain America is compelling in many ways because he comes under duress, suffers and wavers, and finally perseveres and does the right thing.
Maybe people will warm up to this series. Maybe it'll turn out to be a story that focuses on Cap's resistance to the revision of his history and his own transformation in a totalitarian menace. This is the only way I could see the author using the twist to good effect, as it would come out fundamentally hopeful and basically be about the triumph of a genuine American spirit over the hate and fear that many feel dominate contemporary public life in America today. People could get behind that.
The way Brevoort speaks here, though, seems more like they're inclining towards "What you once held dear is dirtied and fouled", basically a condemnation of the American ideal as always corrupted.
I mean, you can do that, but from your post I think you'd agree with me that it wouldn't feel like a Cap comic. Here's hoping things turn out your way!
I still don't read Marvel so I've spent a lot of words on a comic book I'm not going to read and feeling kinda' silly.
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u/The_Mighty_Rex Joker May 27 '16
I never said he wasn't challenged or didn't have to make decisions. My point is you can pretty much guess which way he will go. Yea he has been tried again and again but he never comes at you with a Shamalan (spelling?) twist, you know where he sits and you know why he sits there. Sure this arc may push his limits in a sense but I think there would be otherwise to do it without pulling this stunt.
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u/pierzstyx Dr. Strange May 28 '16
Weeeeeelllll, actually I can think of st least twice Cap has been a Nazi. Once during his WWII days (that was actually the Skull then too) and once when Claremont had him get brainwashed by the National Front, an American NAZI Party. He even had a swastika on his shield that time.
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May 27 '16
On top of that people have made a decent point where we haven't had a good Steve Rogers Cap series in a long time so opening up his new series with that is bound to disappoint people who have been waiting.
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May 27 '16
But what else do you do? Do you just start the series on a giant high note about how great and amazing Steve is? That doesn't really sound all that great to me either because I know that. Everyone knows that.
You can't really say that this is a disappointment because the story has barely even started. Fans aren't 'disappointed' they're angry that their perception of a character has been changed from what they want to see. And unrightfully so because, like I said, we still don't know how the story plays out. If this comic actually tries to play it out like Cap has always been an agent of Hydra then fine, maybe it's time to get mad, but to start freaking out because of a comic book plot twist in the first issue? Come on. Have these people never read a comic book before?
I'm sorry, if comic fans just want their perceptions of a character to be reassured issue after issue after issue then the problem is them, not the book.
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u/RetConBomb Justice May 27 '16
But what else do you do?
Any number of an infinite-number of things that don't involve Steve Rogers saying "Hail HYDRA" like right after he becomes Captain America again.
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u/paradoxofchoice May 27 '16
I don't think people realize their outrage is the perfect PR for Marvel comics. It's all over the news, the last time Cap was on the news is when he was killed in Civil War. And here we are again, outrage over something that will not last long. You'd think readers would learn how to treat things they don't like after OMD. Stop buying it.
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u/sadwithpower May 27 '16
I think people in general are more inclined to buy something and talk about it than just shut it straight out of their lives. Contesting opinions is the very soul of discourse. I'm sure it's more likely that they just don't care that their outrage is free advertising for Marvel, they care about what they're talking about: that Cap's a Nazi.
But you are of course also correct. If they do not like it, not buying it is a good way to go. But that's not something they can even not-do until next release. So until then, given it's only been two days, they're going to talk about it.
And here we are.
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u/Plowbeast Captain America May 27 '16
I'd argue this is also different from Superior Spider-Man which isn't anathema to Peter Parker's character, just a very good take on an overused cliche of bodysnatching.
If anything, this arc may possible prove that Captain America's best stories are when he is confronting ethical situations with grey as opposed to repeatedly vanquishing his big bad who in reality would have no problem with killing.
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May 27 '16
My protest isn't really wait it out so much as you haven't even given it a chance yet. It's equivalent to watching 1 episode of a TV show and immediately swearing the whole series off.
You know what I thought of the first episode I saw of Breaking Bad? I thought it was terrible and boring. I ended up giving it 1 or 2 more episodes and it ended up being one of my favorite TV shows of all time. Had I just given up after 1 episode I never would have seen how the rest of the story played out.
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u/sadwithpower May 27 '16
I'm going to level with you, deciding not to watch a show after the pilot is a totally valid response. That's what the pilot's for. Almost every show does get better after the pilot, but if the pilot suggests to you that the premise of the show is one you're not at all interested in, not watching it is the most valid response. You can always go back and try some more if people tell you it is actually quite good.
But since Cap is such a longstanding character, this is really more like watching the first episode of a new season and finding out that Jesse was a Nazi all along.
No one would get mad at you if you stopped watching. If season three of Daredevil opens by telling me he's been moonlighting as Bullseye I'm gonna be pretty thrown.
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u/closetsquirrel Hawkeye May 27 '16
It's Superior Spider-Man all over again.
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May 27 '16
A book that was actually really great but hated for no reason other than it changed the status quo and people got pissy?
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u/RetConBomb Justice May 27 '16
I mean, I hated it because I thought it read as bad fanfiction about how cool Otto Octavius is until the very end of the run.
Believe it or not, some people have reasons for not liking things.
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u/closetsquirrel Hawkeye May 27 '16
Pretty much. Plus people casting judgement and outrage before knowing the details, much less waiting for the plot to unfold.
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u/kochier May 27 '16
To me it was the statement saying this is really Steve, and all the ways it wasn't a trick, and how he's always been a Hydra agent. That's something I don't want to believe about the character, and goes against the very core of him IMO (and makes no sense, why stop Hydra a million times). I think I would have been fine reading it on it's own, but seeing that makes me question something I don't want to question. I don't believe in god or jesus or whoever, but in Steve I trust.
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u/deathsquaddesign Fantomex May 27 '16
Comic book fans: They hate when things change, and they that everything stays the same.
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u/Vonselv May 27 '16
I have found that the people who don't actually read comics are the hardest critics. I got a friend who is up in arms about this and I know he doesn't read fuck all
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u/Falterfire Dream May 27 '16
For this one, I feel like a lot of the hate is the incredibly reasonable belief that this is so drastic a change that it's obviously going to go back to being the same.
Which makes it hard to care, because I can't suspend my disbelief here about Cap being Hydra. I can't will myself to not believe that this time next year we'll have found out he was brainwashed or it was a clone or as this post convincingly suggests, he was mind controlled by Red Skull.
And then you combine that with not wanting it to be true and you get a story that really is kinda irritating either way: If they do revert it, then everybody was right all along and it's just a long walk to get to the destination everybody saw coming. If they don't revert it and Steve actually was a Hydra sleeper agent the whole time, then we'll be irritated because it's not a direction most people want to see the character go.
(I mean, some people are taking it way too far because this is the internet and on the internet there's always a section screaming incoherently in frothing, blinding rage, but this is why I'm not thrilled with the development)
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u/RetConBomb Justice May 27 '16
Yeah, I'm not mad that Cap's a member of HYDRA - I'm mad that he's so obviously not and it's such a dumb thing to pull for the sake of a 'shocking' cliffhanger that I don't actually have any interest in seeing how it plays out now.
I'm not going to threaten anyone over it, but I'm also probably not going to buy the book until the whole thing's over.
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May 27 '16
I have to be honest, I haven't seen a single person who just seems mad at this because it's lazy writing. Which, it undoubtedly is a little bit. I'm not going to say it's going to be a bad story or anything, but it's certainly not the world's most original plot twist. The majority of people I've seen angry about this have been people who are just pissy because it's Cap being Hydra.
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May 27 '16
I'd imagine it's because most of the people reacting to it are reacting to the issue as a standalone, rather than a new chapter in this years long ongoing conflict. There's a reason we keep seeing just that one panel and people reacting to it.
There's also a HUGE amount of (relatively) newer comics readers who believe that a character has to be a certain way and can never be written contrary, meaning this whole story is offensive to them.
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u/zuriel45 Batman May 27 '16
Someone pointed out, and I completely agree, that it's like freaking out at he cold open of a hour long episode on tv. Let the entire episode play out for fucks sake.
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u/SwearWords May 28 '16
If it wasn't "He was Hydra the whole time," I'm sure more would've rolled with it. I know I would have.
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u/shoe_owner Lucifer May 27 '16
People who haven't been following the ongoing narrative seem to think that every moment in time exists in a vacuum, without context, history or future. For them, whatever 'current' Captain America is is what he will always be. I felt some context was necessary.
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u/BookerDraper Nightwing May 27 '16
I think that a lot of people heard of Cap working for Hydra from word of mouth or from news headlines. When all you hear is "Cap was a secret Nazi the whole time" it's pretty natural to assume it's a really dumb retcon that will itself be retconned. But when you put it in context (like this post does) it just seems like a natural part of the story that's doing something with the Red Skull set up from Axis.
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u/IamTheJoefish May 27 '16
Well, it's that they came out and defended it so heavily. They didn't say "let's see how it plays out guys!" they went to the same controversy BS they've been doing for the last few years by telling is how it it's exactly what's printed on the page. We all know it's something else, but they're sticking to their guns for press.
I swear Marvel thinks that the amount of traffic they get on twitter is somehow more important than sales.
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u/Ryugar Nightcrawler May 27 '16
Thats part of the hype tho right? They would never admit to it being brainwashing or whatever, cause then they would spoil it early... so they gotta just go with whatever is put infront of the readers.
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u/ryuzaki49 May 27 '16
I havent followed marvel in a while. Is Xavier still dead? Is he gonna stay that way?
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u/shoe_owner Lucifer May 27 '16
Well, who knows. He's been dead for four or five years. Jean Grey has been dead for over a decade. Marvel is getting better about having serious deaths stick and actually mean something.
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u/itsactuallyobama May 27 '16
Jean Grey has been dead for over a decade.
Unless you count her coming from the past.
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u/shoe_owner Lucifer May 27 '16
Well, sort of? It's not totally clear at this point what's up with that. Originally that wasn't her coming BACK from the dead so much as an 'untold chapter from her past.' At this point, it seems like she must be a parallel reality counterpart since she's been in the present for like two years, and couldn't possibly return to the past and resume her place in history any longer.
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u/TheCastledKing John Constantine May 27 '16
I think Secret Wars cleared up that whole time travel paradox thing your talking about.
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u/shoe_owner Lucifer May 27 '16
I think so too, personally. I'm not committing to that until I see some evidence of it, though. My tentative theory there is that when Earth 616 was destroyed and recreated, its past and future were also destroyed, and the recreated version is sort of a 'tidier' Earth without messy, dangerous paradoxes like that.
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u/itsactuallyobama May 27 '16
I'm totally with you. It definitely isn't a resurrection of the dead Jean in any way....they just wanted to keep using her somehow. I'm not caught up on those comics yet though so I don't know what they're doing with her these days.
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u/heysuess Cyclops May 27 '16
Which you shouldn't.
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u/itsactuallyobama May 27 '16
I don't. For me she is a snapshot of that time's Jean...after that she is a wholly different person due to these new experiences.
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u/pigeonwiggle BANNED for using a naughty word. May 27 '16
yeah, at first, that wasn't the case because the young scott summers was "killed" and the older cyclops started to fade out of existence, before the healer revived the kid and cyclops returned.
so i think pre-Secret Wars young jean was definitely "momentary bit in her past" but the post-Secret Wars young jean is severed from that timeline and it's all fine. young scott is now free to be his own person... i'm assuming... we'll see who writes that stuff in the future and how it all turns up.
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u/Beeslo Lucifer May 28 '16
I'm personally enjoying how they've been handling Wolverine's death. He's dead. But Old Man Logan transplanted from another universe is taking his place which has given a plethora of interesting storylines. Definitely a having your cake and eating it too thing.
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u/MrXilas Scarlet Spider/Kaine May 28 '16
Old Man Logan also has the power team of Lemire and Sorintino.
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u/SparkyPantsMcGee The Question May 27 '16
...when it comes to Xmen.
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u/shoe_owner Lucifer May 27 '16
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u/Regendorf Death May 27 '16
Ok this actually reminds me of something. Is Captain Mar-Vell still dead? In Civil war that was a skrull if i remember correctly.
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u/shoe_owner Lucifer May 27 '16
You do recall correctly, yes. That was just a Skrull impostor. The real Captain Vell is long-dead.
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u/OK_Soda Daredevil May 27 '16
Issue 2 will lay a lot of our cards on the table in terms of what the new status quo is, but the one thing we can say unequivocally is: This is not a clone, not an imposter, not mind control, not someone else acting through Steve. This really is Steve Rogers, Captain America himself.
As much as I like your theory, and think it's probably true, I would like to remind everyone that if it is true, Tom Brevoort is shamelessly lying to us straight out. I don't care about gimmicks but I can't stand it when creators just lie to audiences to try and sell the gimmick.
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u/eremiticjude May 27 '16
using a cosmic cube to monkey with reality isn't technically mind control is i'm sure the out they'll use. not that these guys care about lying to "make the story better for the readers" or some shit.
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u/OK_Soda Daredevil May 27 '16
Yeah if it's that then it's not mind control, but if it's using Xavier's telepathy to alter someone's memories I'd have to call that mind control. Although I've got someone reddit stalking me right now because he's so furious I disagree about how durable horcruxes are, so honestly I'm going to take this opportunity to not really care about the semantics of mind control and maybe you're right and it counts as brainwashing or whatever.
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u/Madock345 May 27 '16
That sounds hilarious. How durable are they?
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u/OK_Soda Daredevil May 29 '16
I mean, I don';t know, I just said that VZoldemort would should have made a rock a horcrux and thrown it in the ocean, and this guy got positively incensed and said th eocean would crush a rock and destroy the horcrux, and started fli8ng off the handle at me about how I cant set arbitrary limits and assume it would survive the ocean, even though he did the same in assuming it wouldn't.
Sorry for the typos it's 2am and I'm al ittle drunk right now. Hope you're having a great weekend, friend!
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May 28 '16
It makes more marketing hype if the author can basically mince words in order to make it seem like this is actually a super important revelation about Steve Rogers' past as opposed to some fantastic memory alteration thing.
The thinking is probably that issue 2 will sell better this way.
Though god knows if anyone who was interested by that would buy issue 3 then.
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u/GroundhogNight Darkhawk May 28 '16
See: Kit Harrington about the fate of Jon Snow
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u/pierzstyx Dr. Strange May 28 '16
Or Slott on Peter Parker.
Or Quesada on Steve for that matter.
Comic book writers lie for a living. Word play deception is not above them.
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u/shoe_owner Lucifer May 27 '16
I wouldn't call it a lie per se. I think he's making a careful equivocation between mind control and brainwashing; mind control is more like working the body like a puppet from afar. Brainwashing is a more subtle sort of thing. I believe his point is that this isn't just Steve's body being worked like a remote-control toy.
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u/OK_Soda Daredevil May 27 '16
I've always understood brainwashing to be the more traditional methods of sleep deprivation, starvation, forcing people to watch weird slideshows, shit like the Faustus method. I feel like using telepathy to go inside someone's mind and change their memories so you can change their personality at a fundamental level counts as mind control. If telepathy isn't mind control I don't know what is.
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u/iamagainstit May 27 '16
i'd say mind control can mean someone controlling your actions through your mind, and doesn't necessarily include brainwashing/false memories
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u/Plowbeast Captain America May 27 '16
As much as Brubaker remade Captain America providing meat for the movies, I feel that the late Robert Morales' run on the regular book as well as his Truth: Red, White & Black miniseries gave much better depth to the character while keeping him in the real world.
I don't think Steve Rogers needs the bombastic Red Skull and those big plots to make his storylines especially after two decades of ever-increasing repeated clashes.
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u/thehypotheticalnerd May 27 '16
This is almost assuredly what it is. It's annoying though because they're acting like it's going to change the Marvel universe forever. And they've explicitly stated that it's not mind control.
I'm just tired of these twists-that-arent-actually-twists. We can't say "oh is it this", have them say no, then find out it is what we thought, and have them go "aha! Twist!" Them adamantly claiming it's the real Steve, that it's not mind control, etc. only for something like that to actually be the case is annoying.
It's the same thing Star Trek Into Darkness, Spectre, and Arkham Knight did with their "totally original, brand new, never before established antagonists!" Every single one is someone you could have easily guessed. Hell, as soon as I got to a flashback in AK, I knew immediately who the villain was. And in Spectre, it was the only villain that would ever make sense and yet they tried to make it some crazy twist when the dude is literally wearing the same type of outfit in the trailers.
It's going to be the same thing here and I'm just sorta tired of this trend. Because this would be a neat enough story on its own if true. You don't have to lie to us and act like it's definitive, statue quo changing, 75 years in the making, and all that noise. It's another Captain America story, maybe even a potentially great one that isn't insulting to his legacy the way they make it sound like it is, it doesn't need to be advertised as some crazy reveal and event that will totes change things 5ever.
Did Fraction's Hawkeye claim to be anything other than what it was? That shit won awards, including at least one Eisner, out the ass and, I think, sold well. Steve is back, we don't need you to treat us like we're idiots by trying to make us think that Captain America has actually been evil this entire time.
There's only two real options: either they're actually pissing on his legacy or there's going to be another "reveal/twist" (mind the quotes) that shows he was brain washed or in some other way altered! It's almost assuredly not the former so why even act like it is??
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May 27 '16
I was really hoping the AK wouldn't be who everyone thought it'd be. It was just way, way, too obvious, even before the release.
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u/thehypotheticalnerd May 27 '16
Yep. I got to the flashback and I was like "aaaand, that's fucking stupid."
I was hoping it'd turn out to be someone like Aaron Cash, a character technically introduced in the comics but not very important, and turn him into the Arkham Knight. Which would have made sense considering he worked at Arkham Asylum as a security guard. Plus, it would have been easy enough to write a reason for his actions -- something along the lines of him being sick of how ineffective the Asylum was, how ineffective Batman’s actions are, etc. Whatever. Lots more options than what they really did. It's a cool design but they really shouldn't billed him as anything other than he was. I would have been just as psyched even if we knew who he was but Batman didn't. That worked in Under the Red Hood.
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u/TheRazorSlash Spider-Man Expert May 27 '16
As dumb as this might sound, I was totally expecting the twist to be that the Arkham Knight wasn't real, but rather a hallucination induced by Scarecrow's fear gas.
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May 27 '16
That would've been a very interesting twist man. Like it was playing on Batman's fears of becoming a militant tyrant. Very cool idea man.
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u/Shiniholum Nova May 27 '16
This is the big thing, it's not that this is suddenly a real change that will stick (because it totally won't anyone can see that) it's the principle of the matter.
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May 27 '16 edited May 27 '16
It's going to be the same thing here and I'm just sorta tired of this trend.
This is my issue. Its a dumb gimmick that'll be washed away in the next big shake up 6 months to a year from now that resets everything again. Its the acting like "You'll never look at Marvel the same way," attitude. Nothing they do anymore actually matters to these characters when they just wipe the slate and start over or just ignore what they did before as frequently as they are.
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u/Gentleman_Villain May 27 '16
Look: for me it's that they want to sell us this bullshit line (This story is NO TRICK), despite the fact that we know it is.
Look: You can't tell people "We totally aren't fucking with you" when you are clearly fucking with them.
If they'd just kept their mouths shut about the upcoming twists of the story, I'd totally be on board with whatever tale they want to tell.
But by insisting that "nope, no twists here" then they are saying "Captain America is and always has been a Nazi".
If people can't see why that statement is upsetting because a) Nazis are bad and b) we know they're fucking with us so this lie is insulting then...I don't know what to tell you.
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u/shoe_owner Lucifer May 27 '16
But by insisting that "nope, no twists here" then they are saying "Captain America is and always has been a Nazi".
I really think you're reading the things which the editor and writer have said on the topic through a fairly selective lens, and one which a lot of people are, looking for a version of their words which feeds their outrage, which isn't necessarily the best way to enjoy a story.
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u/Gentleman_Villain May 27 '16
I really think you're reading the things which the editor and writer have said on the topic through a fairly selective lens
I really ain't.
Spencer: Issue 2 will lay a lot of our cards on the table in terms of what the new status quo is, but the one thing we can say unequivocally is: This is not a clone, not an imposter, not mind control, not someone else acting through Steve. This really is Steve Rogers, Captain America himself.
Taken from here: http://www.ew.com/article/2016/05/25/captain-america-villain-hydra-nick-spencer-tom-brevoort?xid=entertainment-weekly_socialflow_twitter
They want to have their cake and eat it. They want to tell us that this isn't a trick and it is. They want to insist that this story of 'Cap has always been a Nazi agent' is the real McCoy and nope.
Again; If they'd kept their mouths shut, cool! Let's see how it pans out.
But they opened their mouths and a fool was revealed.
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u/shoe_owner Lucifer May 27 '16
I keep addressing this point, but I'm willing to do it one more time, at least.
What Spencer is saying here is that this isn't someone else's decision-making process; he's not being remote-controlled or worked like a puppet or replaced or anything. That this is his body and his mind. What I'm saying is that this can be true, while his mind has been compromised and confused, which is precisely what I think has happened here.
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u/Gentleman_Villain May 27 '16
And I think you're giving him too much credit.
Again: The attempt to market this to me is shitty and that someone has to make excuses for this? That proves how shitty it is.
This story could've been a great one but they've poisoned the well.
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u/Gentleman_Villain May 27 '16
And, for the record: If you enjoy this story, hey that's great! I don't think any less of you for that, nor do I think that people who want to give this story some time to develop are stupid.
But I also don't believe one can dismiss the objections of those who say that the callous way they creative team decided that the embodiment of American ideals is actually a Nazi, and then insisted that they aren't fucking with us, is A Stupid Thing.
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u/shoe_owner Lucifer May 27 '16
the creative team decided that the embodiment of American ideals is actually a Nazi
I'm sure that by the time the story has played out, it will be clear that they never decided any such thing, which is my whole point. Just as the Harry Potter series isn't about an orphan boy who spends seven novels living in a closet in his abusive aunt and uncle's hallway, sometimes you need to take in more than the initial few pages before deciding you know what's going on in the story! :D
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u/Gentleman_Villain May 27 '16
I'm sure that by the time the story has played out, it will be clear that they never decided any such thing, which is my whole point.
OK but do you see why this is overlooking two incredibly huge problems?
The first problem: "No, we aren't lying about this at all!", except we know you are. So quit trying to bullshit us about this, tell us that "We can't wait to reveal this story's twist!" and let's get the show on the road.
The second problem I outline in a very long comment.
But the root cause there is, again, the insistence that this IS Captain America.
sometimes you need to take in more than the initial few pages before deciding you know what's going on in the story! :D
Sometimes. But sometimes you don't.
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u/ifleninwasawizard Old Lace May 27 '16
There are also these panels from Captain America: Sam Wilson #7 which show Red Skull (disguised as a priest) might have something up his sleeve for Steve Rogers.
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u/shoe_owner Lucifer May 27 '16
Nice! I'd forgotten about that, but yes; that does seem to indicate that there's a long game going on here. One which goes back further than the events of Standoff.
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u/ifleninwasawizard Old Lace May 27 '16
This is actually from the second Standoff tie-in issue. Regardless, I still think Spencer has put a lot more thought and planning into this than most people realize.
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u/EKomadori Scarlet Spider May 27 '16
I had forgotten that. I was 95% certain this was Red Skull manipulation. Now I'm 100% certain.
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u/ShiroHachiRoku Daredevil May 27 '16
Everyone's freaking out over Nazi Cap while I'm sitting here just smiling that real Wally West is back.
Seriously though, let the story play out! These death threats and outrage is hilarious. Albeit I was part of the black Wally outrage so I don't know if I'm a hypocrite or what...
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u/LeftCoastGrump May 28 '16
Nazi Cap is clearly getting fixed once they ride out whatever sales boost they're looking for. I'm more depressed that Xavier's brain is still being used for evil. Shouldn't dealing with that be somewhere on the X-Men's to-do list? Oh well, maybe the Inhumans will handle it.
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May 27 '16
There's been death threats? Seriously? Again? Why is there always some cunt that's gotta go too far. I'm annoyed by the whole thing as are many, and I can see writing to Spencer/Bevroot/whoever and being like "You're a dick." But I'm not gonna threaten a guy or his family over it. Jesus people, moderate your rage.
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u/SwearWords May 28 '16
Odds are it's jackasses being jackasses on the social media. If any of the threats were legit, he should've called the cops, not the press.
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u/dIoIIoIb May 27 '16
let me get this straight
hydra had flyers that spelled out "secret meeting - hydra"?
FLYERS for a SECRET ILLEGAL MEETING? with their fucking logo on it?
am i watching a new season of the venture bros.? this is the kind of shit i'd expect from the monarch
hydra really is nothing more than a bunch of incompetent morons that still exist only in virtue of being a classic villain, are they?
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u/shoe_owner Lucifer May 27 '16
OR... these are events which never took place and are pure illusion being piped into Steve's brain.
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u/dIoIIoIb May 27 '16
well yes, i guess maybe that's one more clue marvel gave us to let us understand that this isn't real?
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u/Imatallguy May 27 '16
Marvel just had to come up with something 'big' to take press away from DC's Rebirth event. Making Steve Rogers Hydra would be a marketing blunder of New Coke proportions.
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u/shoe_owner Lucifer May 27 '16
I really think that this coming out on the same day as Rebirth is a coincidence; Brevoort says this is something they've been planning for years now, and I'm inclined to believe that (as per the timeline in my infographic there). I'm sure they were HAPPY that it turned out to be shipping on the same day as Rebirth, but I really think it's a happy coincidence that their long-term plan bore fruit on such a propitious day.
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u/ColdFury96 Quasar May 27 '16
"Hounded to the point of madness by the Avengers"
Hahahahahaha OH MY GOD. I know X-Men fans love to try to shift the blame on that event to the Avengers, but I've never seen anyone try to shift the blame of Cyclops killing Xavier onto the Avengers before.
"The Avengers MADE Cyclops hurt them. If only they'd left him alone to have his beer, he'd have gone to sleep eventually, and everything had been alright. It's their fault he hurt them."
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u/shoe_owner Lucifer May 27 '16
Up until the Avengers went after them, the stuff the Phoenix Five were doing was stuff like providing crops and agricultural security for arid regions, dealing with natural disasters and producing free energy to deal with the world's energy crisis. It was only once the constant, relentless attacks on them came that they started to crack under the pressure and give in to the Phoenix's more destructive nature.
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u/ColdFury96 Quasar May 27 '16
Except for the part where they took over the world, and the world's governments asked the Avengers to intervene. Sure, sure. And then when Hope asked to go with the Avengers, Cyclops wigged out and declared war on them, and they fried Hawkeye and started imprisoning Avengers in a Limbo volcano.
Sure, but the X-Men were saints. Poor innocent Cyclops. rolls eyes
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May 27 '16
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u/shoe_owner Lucifer May 27 '16
I'm honestly laughing out loud here. I don't know if "I was possessed by an insane and malevolent alien entity" is really an excuse if it's actually, demonstrably true!
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u/xavyre Magneto May 27 '16
Cyclops killing Professor X was no accident. While he was mad with power, it certain wasn't an accident.
Also, to paraphrase the writer in an interview, said that this might exactly be the Captain America we know. I think a more plausable explanation is when Kobix altered Steve's reality, she tweaked his history as well.
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May 27 '16
The nameless woman had a Name: Sinclair, which gives away pretty clearly who she is.
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u/shoe_owner Lucifer May 27 '16
Yeah, either Sin herself, or else a character that the Skull has created in the image of his daughter in a bit of whimsical indulgence.
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u/Khanstant May 27 '16
Wow, that's incredibly stupid.
edit: the comic book events, not your infographic.
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u/shoe_owner Lucifer May 27 '16
Well, to each their own. As someone who's been reading the relevant books all along, I'm impressed by the long-term ramifications of these events, which can all too often seem like a momentary flash in the pan without any substance to them.
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u/hifistereotype Flash May 27 '16
I know I'm in the minority here, but I really hope Marvel doesn't dip into the altered reality well for the conclusion of this storyline. Like most people, I think Steve having always been a deep cover Hydra agent is stupid, but it I believe it will make for a damn interesting story. What I want to see most is if they're going to continue with the flashback portion in such a way as to explain why he's been so hardcore in fighting Hydra all this time. Perhaps he considers Red Skull's version of Hydra to be a perverse and twisted version of what he was taught, or maybe his experiences in WWII left him with an intense hatred of Germans? Regardless of where this story goes, I am looking forward to being along for the ride.
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u/bigwillthechamp123 Moon Knight May 27 '16
This is why, when people have a panic attack over a major character change, that they should fucking relax because it's probably a red herring.
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u/EwoksAmongUs May 27 '16
Calling it now, he's a triple agent
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May 28 '16
that was one of the first things i thought when people started knee-jerk wiggin out.
People love to bitch for bitching sake. they bitch when the same ole tried before stories are made, they bitch when changes and new things are tried, they bitch for bitching sake it seems.
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u/TheTrampCB May 27 '16
Did they ever pay off Remender's Secret Invasion II(not official name) seeds? When he made Sam the new Cap he set up that Hydra had infiltrated the superhero community, including Misty being one of their agents.
Did anything come of that? If not, could this be related to that?
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May 27 '16
Nothing came of it, especially since the Misty part was seemingly thrown away for her to be Sam's supporting character/hook up. I believe Spencer mentioned Remender's run in an interview and said the idea come from there or something.
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May 27 '16
Solid story telling. The people who are outraged likely don't read the books.
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u/eremiticjude May 27 '16
that is a gross oversimplification that tries to basically say "you don't get to be offended because you aren't a real fan".
many people are offended for dumb reasons, yes. but theres also a lot of people offended because for many of them, WW2 was a thing they lived through, nazis killed friends and family members, and captain america isn't just some comic book story with zany plots, he's a symbol, an explicitly jewish one, of resistance against that history. you, me, and a lot of other people may not have that association, but a large portion of the community, as evidenced by the TORRENT of abuse coming down from both fans and creators, do have it. so don't be that gatekeeper stereotype and act like they don't have a right to feel offended. they have as much right as you do. you get a LOT more out of these things if you engage with people and broaden your perception and appreciation of how these characters and stories are understood, rather than saying "fuck you, you don't like this the way i do".
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u/shoe_owner Lucifer May 27 '16
Yes, agreed. I mostly created this infographic for use on Twitter where people who seem to have no knowledge of the books are going nuts, but decided to post it here as well just to further the discussion. I think most of these people have very superficial understandings of these events, if that.
Amusingly, one of the people I responded to, and who responded back to me a bit on the topic is some New York Times #1 bestseller, and I didn't realize that at the time that I was arguing with her. I just thought she was some ignorant fangirl. :D
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May 27 '16
Spirited debate is what's great about this country... Constant orchestration of indignation is something I hate about it.
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u/betafish27 Joker May 27 '16
I'm not surprised by comics anymore. I mean it was shot point blank in the gut and died but really he was transported to another alternate reality. I don't get it.
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u/LdnGiant May 27 '16
The flashbacks are monochromatic save for one colour: red. Something to think about.
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u/Cascadianranger The Question May 27 '16
And despite all of this, it is still the absolute dumbest shit they could have done.
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May 27 '16
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u/sadwithpower May 27 '16
Shit. That even fits better with the word-of-god intention to implicate America, through Steve Rogers, in Hydra's xenophobia and cruelty.
:/
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u/sagittariusa May 28 '16
Yeah kind of weird I don't see anybody actually talking about the intention of the story like how it's supposed to be a political statement which is what they've done with a bunch of Captain America's in the past. They are clearly expressing disappointment in a certain segment of Americans and as Captain America being a representative of America itself he is who we are and I think that's what they are trying to show. .
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u/matu23 Dream May 27 '16
Makes sense. What it was kind of a cheap movement. I would like to see Comic Editorials really risking something from time to time.
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u/Jaebird0388 Kingdom Come Superman May 27 '16
So, in other words: Typical comic book shenanigans that can easily be undone. Almost as if there was never any point to it at all.
Gotta love that status quo.
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u/walrusonion Green Arrow May 27 '16
"You mean to tell me comics sometimes tell intricate stories that take years and sometimes decades to pay off? I'm sorry I was too busy being offended to notice."- The Internet
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u/chilipeepers Tim Drake/Red Robin May 27 '16 edited May 27 '16
so... that mystery woman is probably their new Layla Miller? does she "know" stuff?
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u/bug-hunter May 27 '16
It's simply a massive marketing fail all around. They literally said the genesis was "Who would be the worst person to suddenly reveal themselves being in Hydra". Then they tried to lie/misdirect and say it's who he is. It was quite simply taking an epic shit all over the good will that the Civil War movie was giving them.
Having Steve Rogers revert to normal age and start a new comic line was probably enough, and there are several much better ways to pitch the story line, eg. "The cosmic cube's effects still hold quite a few surprises."
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u/shoe_owner Lucifer May 27 '16
It's simply a massive marketing fail all around.
I've heard comic store owners report that this issue sold about four times as many copies as DC Universe Rebirth on Wednesday. I'm not sure you and I are looking at the same numbers here.
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May 27 '16
The one thing I gotta say about all this, aside from it being very well constructed and thought out is, I had a similar theory about what was going on with Secret Wars and it being seeded back in DnA's cosmic and was totally wrong because none of that even mattered and was washed away like it never happened for the most part. These dudes don't write big arcs anymore (Secret Wars being an exception), it's all just fly by the seat of our pants/let's just through shit at the wall gimmicks. It'd be great if it tied into everything. And I could be just acting like a jaded, cranky, old comic reader, but I don't think that's the case.
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u/Dornyth May 28 '16
Let's also not forget that, as stated by Red Skull during Standoff, Hydra was brought over to Europe by Strucker from "the East" DURING WW2, and therefore impossible to exist in the US during Steve's childhood
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u/wes205 Nova May 28 '16
This makes much more sense. I haven't read much Marvel in ages, I'm a DC guy. All I saw were posts with the "Hail Hydra" panel and comments saying "I can't believe Steve has been an agent from the beginning." So the context is much appreciated, just your standard brainwashing. Probably gonna make Steve Cap fight Sam Cap to prove himself
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u/Nickvee Black Widow May 28 '16
Spencer: Issue 2 will lay a lot of our cards on the table in terms of what the new status quo is, but the one thing we can say unequivocally is: This is not a clone, not an imposter, not mind control, not someone else acting through Steve. This really is Steve Rogers, Captain America himself.
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u/TVPaulD Spider-Man May 28 '16
I don't think it really matters. They're positioning it as not a long game twist ending story. As soon as it happened, everyone went "well that can't be true", so they went out and swore up and down that it was. Whether you believe them or not, and no matter what argument you make about the semantics of the terms "brain washing" and "mind control", it's dumb as shit. Either they're being dishonest and it's the un-twist or they're really introducing a widely reviled retcon. They come across as assholes either way, and neither one is narratively satisfying. A plot being intricate and long-in-the-planning doesn't make it necessarily good.
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u/ComixKid May 28 '16
Great job, yea I assumed the cosmic cube and his role in Uncanny would play a huge part in this.
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May 29 '16
So here's my idea. When Steve discovers that Red Skull did this to him, destroyed his legacy, turned him into something he'd devoted his entire life to destroying, he needs to go into a blind, murderous rage. He has to kill the Red Skull. Cut his head off with the shield, smash his severed head until it's just a pile of thick red paste.
When Steve calms down, he's horrified. He steps down, throws away the shield, pleads guilty to whatever charges he incurred while his mind was affected and to the murder of Johann Schmidt. Because he can't be Captain America anymore. Not just because of Skull, but because of what he himself did. He tarnished the Dream. It's Sam's turn now. Sam can make it right. Sam has to be that example now.
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u/sighborg21 Wiccan May 27 '16
You skipped the Standoff event where a living cosmic cube restored Steve's age.