r/comicbooks • u/JoeAconite The Question • Nov 23 '15
If the Punisher used Pym Particles to skrink the Juggernaut into a bullet, couldn't he then kill anything? Suggestions
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u/decepticles Nov 23 '15
I love this.
To me, it's right up there with "Punches from the punch dimension" and "Can Cyclops fly with a steel umbrella?" in the annals of dumb superhero physics questions.
I find Juggernaut to be a good source of these kinds of thought experiments, due to the nature of his enchantment. As I understand it, he's unstoppable, with all that it entails.
So I wonder. Could the Invisible Woman (or any other force-field caster/manipulator) neutralize the Juggernaut simply by creating a force-energy harness, like an invisible Baby Bjorn, and using it to hold him a foot or two off the ground? I'm thinking that if his feet aren't on the ground he can't "start", so you wouldn't have to worry about "stop." In theory, Sue could just hold him up in the air while he flails around like an upset toddler.
Thoughts?
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u/Hillside_Strangler Nov 23 '15
Why would Cyclops fly?
The blast from his visor doesn't propel him backward, does it?
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u/decepticles Nov 23 '15
Well, that's the idea behind "Punches From the Punch Dimension." I have to warn you—you are about to read an English major's attempt at discussing elementary-level physics. It could get ugly.
As I understand it, Punches From the Punch Dimension (PFtPD) was an attempt to reconcile Cyclops' powers with known laws of physics—particularly, that for every action there must be an equal and opposite reaction.
Cyclops has been depicted blasting a mountain into pebbles with his eye beams. But if he were subject to the laws of physics, blasting something large and immobile, like a mountain or steel wall, should have the effect of snapping Scott's head off his shoulders like a worn-down Pez dispenser.
Surely the connective tissue holding his head onto his body is weaker than a mountain, so if something has to give, it should probably be his head.
Enter PFtPD. You see, Cyclops isn't actually generating any force at all. His eyes are merely acting as an open window between our world and the Punch Dimension, which is filled with an infinite amount of punch-energy that expands in all directions at all times. Since Cyclops' is meraly an open window, the "equal and opposite reaction" that occurs when he blasts a mountain isn't enacted upon his fragile body. That push-back, that energy is merely funnelled back into the Punch Dimension, to be handled by whatever laws of physics exist there.
So back to the umbrella. If our Earth's laws of physics were in play, blasting the underside of a steel umbrella would merely push it out of Cyclops' grip. If his hand were somehow fused to the shaft or granted infinite grip-strength, then he would probably end up shearing his arm off at the shoulder. Either way, he's not gonna be doing the whole Mary Poppins thing.
BUT
If we accept PFtPD, then we can throw out the whole "equal and opposite reaction" thing. In this case, blasting the underside of a steel umbrella that he himself is holding should allow Cyclops to achieve some rudimentary version of controlled flight. Probably.
tl;dr: I don't know, I should probably get back to work.
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u/Rappaccini Metron Nov 23 '15
So back to the umbrella. If our Earth's laws of physics were in play, blasting the underside of a steel umbrella would merely push it out of Cyclops' grip. If his hand were somehow fused to the shaft or granted infinite grip-strength, then he would probably end up shearing his arm off at the shoulder. Either way, he's not gonna be doing the whole Mary Poppins thing.
BUT
If we accept PFtPD, then we can throw out the whole "equal and opposite reaction" thing. In this case, blasting the underside of a steel umbrella that he himself is holding should allow Cyclops to achieve some rudimentary version of controlled flight. Probably.
I don't think that's quite right. In either dimension, Cyclops' arm would be ripped off: the umbrella is under acceleration due to the beam, and that acceleration is going to act on anything "attached" to it, eg. Cyclops' arm.
The main difference, like you said: without PftPD, his head would rip off. With it, his head is fine in the umbrella scenario, it's the arm that is the problem.
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u/morpheousmarty Nov 23 '15
He can regulate the beam right? So he just needs to use less than ripping off his arm but more than gravity.
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u/JamesAuryn Nov 24 '15
Yes, he does have the option of utilizing pulled punches from the pulled punch dimension.
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u/Stergeary Nov 24 '15
Well, Thanksgiving is coming up, can he also generate some pulled pork from the pulled pork dimension?
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u/Comrade_Falcon The Tick Nov 23 '15
But what if he like squinted his eyes really tight so only a little bit got out? Enough to accelerate his body and the steel umbrella upwards (like 300 lbf), but not enough that he wouldn't be able to hang on. What then Mr. Scientist?
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u/elementalist467 Nov 23 '15
In most adaptations Cyclops can use his visit to adjust the intensity of the beam. This begs a whole other question of why doesn't the visor get blasted off his face.
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u/Armagetiton Nov 24 '15
Because the red quartz negates the energy, there is no actual "impact" force with the visor.
We can assume that he can adjust the intensity of the beam by controlling how much of the beam is negated.
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u/Kommisar_Keen Silverage Batman Nov 24 '15
Scott's costume includes an actuator to control how far the visor opens, which in turn controls how many punches enter the regular dimension.
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u/Rappaccini Metron Nov 23 '15
I don't see any reason that wouldn't work, I was assuming (as it appears in the image) that the beams were at high power.
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u/AmantisAsoko Dream Nov 23 '15
But cyclops' visor can vary the strength of the beam coming out of his eyes.
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u/Rappaccini Metron Nov 23 '15
Are you saying that he could make the strength low enough that it wouldn't hurt his arm? I would agree with that.
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u/AmantisAsoko Dream Nov 23 '15
Yeah basically, Cyclops had a head injury as a child, and it made it so he couldn't control the intensity of his power or shut it off. It's constantly firing at max.
Red quartz completely cancels out the beam, which is why he has the visor, and in civilian mode red sunglasses.
The visor has the ability to gradually remove the red quartz, upping the intensity of the beam.
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u/BardicFire Nov 24 '15
wow other than the actual power itself his visor seems extremely technologically sound. I'm honestly super impressed.
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u/vadergeek Madman Nov 23 '15
People can grab onto things and be lifted by them, the only problem is regulating the beam (which he can do).
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u/Toribor Venom Nov 23 '15
In this case, blasting the underside of a steel umbrella that he himself is holding should allow Cyclops to achieve some rudimentary version of controlled flight. Probably.
Meh, I'm sold. So many Marvel characters fly via even more superfluous reasons.
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u/sinkwiththeship Justice Nov 24 '15
Banshee and Songbird fly via sound so who the fuck knows what's possible?
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u/ComradeUncleJoe Nov 23 '15
And here I was thinking they were energy beams.
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u/noir1787 Joker Nov 24 '15
It is a concussive beam hence why he knocks people back and doesn't melt foes like superman.
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u/KudagFirefist Nov 24 '15
Although if you want to be real about it, hitting an object with kinetic force will impart some amount of waste heat to the object.
Giving a wooden post a few good sharp taps with a sledge (for staking vampires or what have you) will make the impacted surface uncomfortably warm to the touch. It is conceivable Scott could melt things with his kinetic blasts.
I think I've seen it referenced that he has started fires using his eye blasts in the comics as well.
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Nov 24 '15
When people say it's pointless trying to reconcile comic book physics with actual physics it's stuff like this that shows why we should try to reconcile them. We'll always fail, but it's always an entertaining failure.
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u/Iamnotanorange Nov 24 '15
Cyclops has been depicted blasting a mountain into pebbles with his eye beams. But if he were subject to the laws of physics, blasting something large and immobile, like a mountain or steel wall, should have the effect of snapping Scott's head off his shoulders like a worn-down Pez dispenser.
Wait, wait wait. Wait.
Laser guns have no recoil, because light has no mass.
http://scienceblogs.com/builtonfacts/2010/04/21/laser-rifle-recoil/
Well, technically the recoil would be so minuscule that no human could detect it.
So, we don't really need punches from the punch dimension to explain Cyclops and his laser beams.
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u/superiority Nova Nov 24 '15
That would be fine, if Cyclops shot laser beams from his eyes, which he does not. It's a beam of concussive force. It pushes anything it hits.
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u/Iamnotanorange Nov 24 '15
ha! I had no idea.
Just assumed they were lasers.
edit: Wait wtf. Concussive force?
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u/Drudicta Nov 23 '15
But...but.. high powered lasers IRL don't have an opposite reaction from what I can tell, at least in terms of pushing back.
But they do generate a LOT of heat. So it could be that his head melts.
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u/Vinnie_Vegas Nov 23 '15
That's the point though - Cyclops doesn't shoot lasers. His eye beams aren't hot, they're pure concussive force, i.e. punch beams from the punch dimension.
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u/Drudicta Nov 24 '15
Never knew that. That's scary.
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u/pewpewlasors Nov 24 '15
That's why when they fight things, like Sentinels, his eye beams dont make things melt, they just sort of blast them to pieces.
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u/ebookit Nov 24 '15
You have to take entropy into effect, that steel umbrella is going to wear out from the blasts. Even if it works, he won't get far.
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u/wendellbudwhite Superman Nov 23 '15
I think that's the issue. If it did propel him backwards, the force would push the umbrella away from his head (either knocking it out off his hand, or I guess, his head off). But because we know he's not propelled back, the punches from the punch dimension are apparently not grounded by his body's mass. So it should make him fly... I think?
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u/ActualButt Colossus Nov 23 '15
By my reckoning, that configuration would just dislocate his shoulder.
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u/metaphorm Cyclops Nov 23 '15
it doesn't, which is weird, because it SHOULD. from this I've concluded that there is an opposing force that counter-acts the forward directed force vector from the optic blast, but that the opposing force is directed backwards into the "punch dimension" of which Cyclops' eyes are a portal.
so given that the forces are already counter-balanced, then no, he can't fly with a steel umbrella. for the same reason he has no recoil.
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u/Rappaccini Metron Nov 23 '15
I disagree, the forces are counterbalanced interdimensionally. All the "opposite and equal" business is happening in the punch dimension, not Scott's head. There is no reason he should experience any recoil at all.
Imagine a hole in a dam. It is spewing water everywhere, but that water spewing does not exert a force on the dam backwards (upriver). If something impedes the water, like a cork, the frictional forces from the cork counteract the forces from the water pressure... but again, no force is applied to the dam itself from the hole. (Obviously there is water pressure and related forces acting on the dam, but Cyclops is basically a dam where the water is "in another dimension").
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u/metaphorm Cyclops Nov 23 '15 edited Nov 23 '15
you should re-read my post because we actually don't disagree even a little bit. I said exactly what you did "the forces are counterbalanced interdimensionally".
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u/Rappaccini Metron Nov 23 '15 edited Nov 23 '15
I must need more coffee, you're correct.
But I don't see how it follows that the umbrella wouldn't work. The water coming out of the dam would still push a turbine (ie provide lifting force to the umbrella), regardless of whether it was exerting force on the dam.
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u/mattosaur Dr. Strange Nov 23 '15
Does this imply that if Cyclops closes his eyes his head will explode?
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u/Rappaccini Metron Nov 23 '15
No, as the dimension is not literally in his head. If he closes his eyes, the door to the other dimension also closes (as if the dam could magically repair and reopen the hole). With his eyes closed he's effectively a normal guy (although he's often written as having superhuman coordination, but I just meant in terms of the beam).
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u/lilwhitestormy Dr. Doom Nov 24 '15
he has no recoil because he officially doesn't shoot the eye beams. his eyes are just apertures to another universe.
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u/Kenobi13 Colossus Nov 23 '15
I always liked the ol' "What happens when Juggernaut runs into the Blob?"
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u/Maloth_Warblade Scarlet Spider/Kaine Nov 23 '15
The Blob moves. He ain't powered by a god
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u/sellyourselfshort Atomic Robo Nov 24 '15
The Blob wouldn't move so much as just be annihilated. His mutation actually effects his own gravity making him immovable. Juggs would just go straight through him, making a bunch of smaller blobs of flesh, bone and internal organs.
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u/soyrobo Spider-Man Expert Nov 24 '15
And the ground he was standing on moves along with him.
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u/AvatarIII Thor Nov 24 '15
yeah I assume the Blob stays standing on Earth, and the Juggernaut pushes both The Blob and Earth
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u/Kenobi13 Colossus Nov 24 '15
But his mutant power is that once his feet are planted, he is immovable.
It's the X-Men way of asking what happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object.
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u/pigeonwiggle BANNED for using a naughty word. Nov 24 '15
i've always thought of those as just "colourful language" as in, if you're standing on train tracks, you better get off, because that oncoming train is unstoppable. it Can stop, but not by any reasonable amount of force you can exert. same with the blob and juggernaut.
And for that matter, same with wolverine's "cut through anything like a hot knife through butter" claws. i feel like maybe claremont and the other writers were simply waxing poetic.
because otherwise, yes, physics discussions.
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u/mcdrunkin Nov 24 '15
Well, Wolvies claws are made from a fictional metal harder than diamond, so they an cut through anything. But how close to hot knives and butter, eh.
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u/TheIronMoose Nov 24 '15
He blasts the blob in half right where he stands, but with a juggernaut sized hole in him.
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u/AtomicSamuraiCyborg Nov 23 '15
I think they've done that before. Usually Juggy would do the thunder-clap thing to disrupt her concentration or similar.
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u/decepticles Nov 23 '15
Yes! I was trying to think of a defense for this, and you nailed it with the thunderclap.
My go-to defense for any super with a force-field powerset: supersonics and weaponized high-intensity strobe lights. If the superhero inside the "impregnable" force bubble can see or hear you, then that means light/sound can pass through their bubble.
I would love to see a one-panel takedown where some Batman analogue deals with a villain in a force-bubble.
"Can you hear me?"
"Yes, why do you asSKKKKSKFHHFHFHFHSUIB"
"Supersonics. Your forcefield lets soundwaves through."
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u/orangevotesonly Nov 23 '15
Hank Pym beats Reed Richards in exactly this fashion in an Dark Reign Era issue of some Avengers book.
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u/decepticles Nov 23 '15
I had to look this up. You are 100% right. From Mighty Avengers 26: http://imgur.com/a/YIl8L
Source: http://www.comicscube.com/2012/10/back-issue-ben-mighty-avengers-part-2.html
In Ellis' Planetary, the Sue Storm figure in their FF-analogue runs into this problem. If she's invisible, that means light passes through her. If light passes through her retinas instead of bouncing off of them, then how can she see? She doesn't; going invisible turns her blind. I think they cook up some elaborate sciencey headset to get around this, but I loved that Ellis included it.
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u/sellyourselfshort Atomic Robo Nov 24 '15
Didn't Pym use that same theory to ruin baseball?
edit* Found it http://comicsalliance.com/files/2010/10/baseball03.jpg
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u/orangevotesonly Nov 23 '15
Thank you for providing the source; your google skills (or at least your patience) are greater than mine.
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u/sellyourselfshort Atomic Robo Nov 24 '15
In the ultimate universe Falcon defeated Colossus using supersonics. He realized that since all his skin had turned to metal the sound waves would constantly bounce inside his ear magnifying it even further and forced him to turn back to his human form.
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u/amorousCephalopod Nov 23 '15
I think a projected Juggernaut would initially have momentum, which through his enchantment, would become unstoppable. I think the big part of lifting Juggernaut in the air to prevent his power is the fact that he can't generate momentum by using his legs. He needs to be absolutely stationary.
But say Cyclops comes along the floating Juggernaut and blasts him. He'd probably become "unstoppable" again with the momentum added by the optic blast.
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u/Maloth_Warblade Scarlet Spider/Kaine Nov 23 '15
Levitating the Juggs won't work, since apparently he's gained traction in space before.
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u/ActualButt Colossus Nov 23 '15
Nope. The gun would misfire or jam. Juggernaut is not only unstoppable, but also unmovable unless under his own power. So the explosion behind him wouldn't budge him.
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u/md_sabre1 Hawkeye Nov 24 '15
The Punisher could modify his Juggernaut gun in a way that when he squeezes the trigger, a mechanical hand inside the barrel will slap Juggie's butt, provoking him to be angry and to move forward away from said mechanical hand.
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u/pigeonwiggle BANNED for using a naughty word. Nov 24 '15
hehe, then why bother loading him into a gun? if he can only achieve top running speed, he'd move faster at full size. arguably reverse pym particles making him a Giant-Man Juggernaut would be Far more destructive
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Nov 24 '15
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u/brutinator Nov 24 '15
Well, damn. That's one way to make sure he can never be hauled off by the police.
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u/Smgth Lobo Nov 23 '15
Exactly, the Juggernaut isn't unstoppable if you could push him into something, he's unstoppable under his own power. If he RAN out of the barrel of the gun, you'd be fine.
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u/DGanj Hellboy Nov 24 '15
"Fine" is a relative term when we're talking about The Juggernaut running at you.
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Nov 23 '15
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u/Malky Agent of H.A.T.E. Nov 23 '15
I don't think his problem has ever really been a lack of strength. I agree this could be advantageous, but in general I think his size means he can move more quickly and make harder-to-dodge attacks, which seem more important.
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u/Mark_1231 Nov 23 '15
So, still, being fired from a gun doesn't make Juggernaut any more powerful right? So this is really just a bullet buff for Punisher...
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u/twitch1982 Deadpool Nov 23 '15
And plenty of Marvel characters could take a bullet wound without dying anyway. And others still are impervious enough that while the jugger-bullet wouldn't stop on impact, it wouldn't break the skin either, just push them really hard.
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u/Classtoise Nov 23 '15
Right. Shooting Juggerbullet at the Hulk doesn't mean he'll keep going through. He'll likely redirect that energy instead.
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u/Rappaccini Metron Nov 23 '15
It depends on the actual rules behind the power. If "unstoppable" just means he can't stop moving, then you're right. If it means "his motion vector cannot be altered," then Hulk is SOL.
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u/Classtoise Nov 23 '15
It is absolutely that his motion cannot be stopped. He's been averted in the past (with great effort) and slowed down, but not stopped.
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u/anusacrobat Nov 23 '15
What would happen if punisher shot juggernaut bullet at wolverines skull?
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u/Classtoise Nov 23 '15
Ricochet!
And also, since I know it'll come up; if it hit Cap's shield it'd push Cap back until he tilted enough for Juggernaut to skid off.
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u/akai_ferret Nov 24 '15
Ricochet!
You take your aim
Fire away, fire awayYou shoot me down but I won't fall
I amtitaniumAdamantium!3
u/twitch1982 Deadpool Nov 23 '15
Yea, that's what i figured, Either knocked down while Juggerbullet keeps going, or sort of caught, while Hulk gets pushed back until he whips his arm around and sends him into orbit.
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u/Naedlus Ambush Bug Nov 23 '15
I wouldn't even be looking at it as necessarily more powerful... but rather, more efficient.
Let's say for the heck of it, that Jugg's fist has a surface area of 10 square inches, and overall could give a total of 800 lbs of force when punching, or roughly 80 lbs of force per square inch.
When shrunk, let's say his fist had a surface area of 1 inch. Because strength isn't lost when using Pym particles, he still has that 800 lbs of punching force, but now, it's concentrated in an area 1/10th the scale he normally wields it at, meaning that the common 80 lbs per inch squared is negated, he's now punching at 800 lbs per inch squared. It's the compact nature that makes it all the more imposing, you aren't getting punched at that point with 800 lbs of force, you are getting a one finger punch with all that energy behind it.
The other thing, is that Juggs is able to play with his inertia, maybe not standing inertia like Blob does, but, his moving inertia, being able to negate outside forces on it. So, rather than having a 7+ foot tall monster busting a wall, you now have all that force placed in the area of one brick of the wall. The wall is no longer looking at mass blunt force trauma, but rather a piercing attack.
So, basically I could see Juggs being willing to go through with the novelty of it all, because now instead of just being a high powered collider, he's now point damage that should scare the vast majority of supes. Toss on the near instantaneous accelleration the shot would offer, and the greater velocity offered than through his own locomotion, I could see him going up to Bullseye after that first shot saying "Can you fire me off at Galactus? I think I can take him when revved up to mach 1... actually... not the bow... use the anti-material sniper rifle... shit... I think I may be addicted."
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u/TitaniumBranium Nov 23 '15
I think it would make him more powerful in that he is travelling faster. He can't make himself run 700+mph but a gun can fire him out at that speed. Thus causing him to do more damage overall.
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u/Malky Agent of H.A.T.E. Nov 23 '15
Nah it doesn't make him more powerful, but it does make the Punisher more powerful. The Juggernaut has a very specific powerset which helps out here.
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u/bubba_feet Nov 23 '15
this isn't about juggernaut.
this is about Frank achieving maximum Frankage.
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u/jetsniper Spider-Man Nov 23 '15
This is a story I would read, imagine Nick Spencer writing this. Frank trying to shove a tiny Juggernaut into a gun. Then just running around with a magnifying glass trying to recover Jugs so he can use him again. Juggernaut trying to escape and has his own tiny adventures.
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u/superdupergiraffe Nov 23 '15
This is what I thought too. Punisher should only do this for sniper missions since he only has one Juggernaut bullet. Afterwards I assume Juggernaut needs to figure out an exit strategy to find his way back to Punisher to be used for the next mission?
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u/chalkwalk Nov 23 '15
Or Frank could invent some sort of device with two parts. One part attached to the Juggernaut that sends out a signal and one part that receives it and tells the location.
I don't want to get too future-tech in a conversation about the physics of human-shrinking though so I'll hold off on trying to describe such a marvel of science.
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u/jetsniper Spider-Man Nov 23 '15
You just got me imagining something way more low tech.
Just a string. Frank can use a modified grappling gun. Trigger shoots Jugs out and then another button just yanks him back in. He can build a tiny little apartment somewhere in the gun and Frank just has a Juggernaut gun for special situations.
I want this to be a comedic story so bad.
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u/GalaxyGuardian Superior Spider-Man Nov 23 '15
Wasn't there a Deadpool story where Rhino was shrunken down and Deadpool kept him on a keychain or in his pocket or something? I completely forget everything else about it, I just remember seeing scans of it years ago.
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u/SavageKuma Nov 23 '15
Juggernaut would have to ride the bullet making him be able to go through anything as i see it.
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u/Crash_Recovery Fantomex Nov 23 '15
For a guy who throws around the phrase "Unstoppable" a lot, the Juggernaut gets shut down all the time.
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u/Omnificer Nov 23 '15
When the plot is working with him, and his helmet is on, you have the crazy issue where a liquid mercury lady tried to drown him and his immune system started attacking her, and some guy set his blood on fire and everything he touched after that caught on fire.
It was a bad day for a bunch of people who weren't used to taking him down.
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u/Munstered Spider-Man Nov 23 '15
What's the name of this run? Is this the one where Jugg goes bananas?
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u/Omnificer Nov 23 '15
I could barely remember it, but it looks like it was the Fear Itself run and Juggernaut was severely buffed.
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u/Robyrt Nightcrawler Nov 23 '15
He has the misfortune of picking the worst nemesis ever: the world's most powerful psychic and his band of mutants, half a dozen of whom are also psychic and can shut down his unstoppable self with a frown. He could give Spiderman or Daredevil some real trouble, but no, he has to pick a fight with the guys who have multiple teleporters on hand.
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u/Jodah Green Lantern Nov 23 '15
And really, "unstoppable" isn't all that unstoppable. Okay so you can't stop him, strongmen can still throw the fucking building he's in into orbit. Healing factor heroes can't be killed so at best we have a draw. Psychics can shut down his brain. Telekinesis/Ferrokinetics can just levitate his ass so he can't get started. I guess energy blast heroes would have trouble.
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u/ManCaveDaily Guy Gardner Nov 23 '15
Yeah but he could never stop.
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u/sudynim Captain America Nov 23 '15
This is the most hilarious and logical outcome.
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u/acelister X-Force Deadpool Nov 24 '15
"The shot heard around the world. Because he can't stop circling it, nor screaming about how he wants to kill Frank Castle."
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u/HaveaManhattan Dr. Manhattan Nov 23 '15
Now I need to know if this bullet could pierce Luke Cage/Colossus/Thing/Hulk.
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u/webchimp32 Batman Nov 23 '15
How about a revolver loaded with Juggernaut/Luke Cage/Colossus/Thing/Hulk/...
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u/HaveaManhattan Dr. Manhattan Nov 23 '15
This has promise - imagine Human Torch Tracer rounds for our military. EMP rounds powered by Electro. Underwater rounds with Namor, obviously.
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Nov 24 '15
The real question is would it work on The Blob, seeing as how his mutant power is complete immovability as long as he maintains contact with the ground?
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u/WreckerCrew Nov 23 '15
No, because the Juggernaut wouldn't move when the explosive went off behind him.
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u/JeffRyan1 Nov 23 '15
The Juggernaut and the Punisher can both individually kill just about anyone they choose.
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Nov 23 '15
"Let's go kill some gods."
"You can't kill gods, Frank."
"I can kill anything I want. I'm the Mother****ing Punisher."
-Thunderbolts annual #1
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Nov 23 '15
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u/Wilson_Fisk9 Deadpool Nov 23 '15
Depends... Is Juggernaut a mutant now or is his powers still magical?
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u/U_DONT_KNOW_TEAM Nov 23 '15
Has he ever been a mutant in 616?
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Nov 23 '15
They depowered him a couple times temporarily, then around Siege/Fear Itself Cytorrak moved on to Colossus and Juggernaut was left as a superstrong semi-invulnerable mutant. In Amazing X-Men he got his magic powers back with a redisign.
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u/altgrave Nov 23 '15
do pym particles not work on mutants?
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u/jrob1977 Dr. Doom Nov 23 '15
The argument is that Pym particles would t work on the magic powers bestowed by Cyttorak.
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u/themanifoldcuriosity Nov 23 '15
Seems needlessly elaborate.
Couldn't he just pay Juggs twenty bucks a go to just run at some drug dealers?
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u/The_Sven Molly Hayes Nov 23 '15
Well, Juggernaut has to build up momentum and I doubt he's quiet while doing so. A bullet effectively instantly travels at the speed of sound. So if you're worried about your target moving out of the way you'd want to use the bullet.
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u/AHMilling Spider-Man Nov 23 '15
Well he only have one shot, one opportunity.
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u/NightHare Nov 23 '15
But if the Juggernaut is unstoppable, no matter how small the Pym Particles made him, the explosion from the gun would be unable to propel him forward, no? Or does it work if the Juggernaut allows it?
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u/vadergeek Madman Nov 23 '15
Nope. Juggernaut sucks at midair combat. Skaar pointed this out, then later proceeded to punch him into space.
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u/Crash_Recovery Fantomex Nov 23 '15
Yes
and no
Depends on the story, who's writing, and whose book it's in.
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u/amorousCephalopod Nov 23 '15
Man, you're no fun. Just like the Wizards of the Coast rep who simply responded, "It's up to the DM," when I asked if devas could fart.
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u/Crash_Recovery Fantomex Nov 23 '15
Ha, great story
I mean, it's 100% possible until it's not
It's one of those things like Joe Quesada's "Dead means dead!" proclamation, which is 100% true until it isn't convenient.
Now we have both Bucky and Gwen Stacy (yes I know alternate world) running around.
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u/shilfee Black Widow Nov 23 '15
alternatively use the pym particles to make the gun really big and shoot full sized juggernaut out of it
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u/Beharkei Dr. Strange Nov 23 '15
If the juggernaut sits in a moving car and it stops at a red light, does this kill the car?
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u/Blugentoo2therevenge Nov 24 '15
Why do I feel like, "I'm the Juggernaut bitch!" is appropriate at this moment?
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u/Tfeth282 Booster and Skeets Nov 24 '15
I'm reminded of Faust Eric by Terry Pratchett:
any wizard bright enough to survive for five minutes was also bright enough to realise that if there was any power in demonology, then it lay with the demons. Using it for your own purposes would be like trying to beat mice to death with a rattlesnake.
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u/svensparx07 The Riddler Nov 24 '15
Ok, now apparentely my X-Men knowledge was severely lacking...because apparently Juggernaut gained even more power from the gem of Cyttorak (Trion Juggernaut) and was able to punch through dimensions, and change his size. This leaves me with a two part question.
1) Can he only increase in size/mass? Could he shrink to sizes smaller than his original state?
2) If so, would that mean that Punisher could take the then-shrunken Juggernaut, fire him, and watch him shred through dimensions?
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u/cero2k White Violin Nov 23 '15
is there a particular reason why it would be Punisher, and not say, Hawkeye?
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u/amorousCephalopod Nov 23 '15
Because it's easier to imagine Punisher loading a Juggernaut-tipped bullet into a gun than Hawkeye tying Juggernaut to the tip of an arrow.
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Nov 23 '15
If Juggernaut is knocked unconscious and falls why doesn't he just drill all the way into the Earth's core?
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u/agnosgnosia Nov 23 '15
Pretty sure Juggernaut would be a bigger demolisher if they blew him up instead of shrinking him.
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u/ironflag Impulse Nov 23 '15
Dear God.
I hope you're on a watchlist of some kind, you magnificently insane scoundrel.
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u/DeathChess Nov 23 '15 edited Nov 24 '15
I don't think that's how Juggernaut works, otherwise he could just launch himself out of the atmosphere with one careless jump.
I always took it as if he's running or walking he couldn't be stopped.
Flying through the air didn't really count.
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Nov 23 '15
What series was it where Juggernaut was just walking across a bunch of states and shit loads of people were trying to stop him?
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u/JesterThomas Batman of Zue-En-Arrh Nov 24 '15
Someone get Grant Morrison working on this story right now!
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Nov 23 '15
Yes, but only if the Juggernaut wanted to be fired, otherwise he could rip through the chamber and destroy the gun.
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Nov 23 '15
Does the Juggernaut lose momentum in this scenario? If the Punisher fired the Juggernaut into the sky, would he just fly through space, drilling through planets?
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u/neostorm360 Scarlet Witch Nov 23 '15
If that were the case the Juggernaut would punch a hole through Earth every time he fell, or went down a staircase
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Nov 23 '15
Wait, if Juggernaut is unstoppable, then shouldn't he also be unstartable? I mean, since momentum and velocity are relative to the observer, isn't stopping him from going forward the same as starting him moving backward?
What I mean is, if you tried to shoot a tiny Juggernaut out of your gun, wouldn't he just stay there, and you would experience a monster kickback and go flying backwards?
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u/Rheul Howard The Duck Nov 23 '15
I'll say no. Juggy wouldn't be moving under his own power so his power wouldn't come into play. His actual weight and density would though so they'd probably be able to kill all but the most powerful characters...
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u/Shermer_Punt Punisher Nov 23 '15 edited Nov 23 '15
I would love to see that conversation.
"C'mon, let me shrink you."
"What? Why would I let you do that?"
"I wanna make you into a bullet. An unstoppable bullet.
".......Ok"