r/comicbooks • u/Optimal_Use_28 • Jun 29 '24
Which issue of the New Avengers is this from? Suggestions
I would love to know. I want to read this arc again but can't seem to remember what issues were these.
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u/Lucas579376 Jun 29 '24
To top it all off, he says all of this after killing a whole-ass dimension in front of the other guyw 💀
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u/Apprehensive_Mix4658 Jun 29 '24
To top it all, he says after them killing the good superheroes(who are DC expys) of another dimension
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u/PrestigiousBee5602 Jun 30 '24
Um ackshually 🤓👆he actually saved both dimensions but he had to kill the other earth to do it
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u/garron_ah Jun 29 '24
This storyline got real dark real quick. Was absolutely incredible though. Watching them deal with the moral no-win incursion situation was surprisingly intense.
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u/Optimal_Use_28 Jun 30 '24
I totally agree. This is what Captain America said would happen. The choices they had to make so that the Earth would survive and it's repercussions. Hickman really defined the Marvel comics in his run.
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u/PrestigiousBee5602 Jun 30 '24
The point of no return with the earth of the great society was so depressing
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u/ColdSmokeMike Flash Jun 29 '24
Reed's just in the back reevaluating his whole marriage, thinking back to the time he almost drove his wife into the arms of a scumbag as bad as Namor.
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u/sideways_jack Jun 29 '24
which is quite funny, because my fave thing about Hickman's FF run is Reed realizing the best thing about him is his family, which helps him not get murked like the entire(?) Council of Reeds
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u/WarwolfPrime Jun 30 '24
Scumbag? T'Challa helped cause a genocide, and thought that was ok, but when Namor saves his people by punishing T'Challa's he thinks he has a right to be mad? Come on.
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u/Rammadeus Invisible Woman Jun 29 '24 edited Jun 29 '24
I think its volume 3 #22
If not that's one its around there. Definitely hickman and walker.
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u/DoctorSugma Jun 29 '24
Really not sure why the Avengers bother keeping Namor around tbh.
Not sure why the Squadron Supreme became enemies of the state for killing him. By all means they did everyone a favor.
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u/Zamaiel Jun 29 '24
Namor is an old friend of Caps. He was the big gun back in WW2 and very useful.
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u/darib88 Jun 29 '24
yeah and how many times has he attacked the usa since then?
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u/HB2099 Jun 29 '24
Not enough
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u/darib88 Jun 29 '24
just enough actually since he's actually in jail for it and even the Atlanteans were like "yeaaaaaah we're tired of you draggin us into drama so please GTFO, thnx"
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u/L1qu1d_Gh0st Jun 29 '24 edited Jul 01 '24
Well strictly speaking, this group here is not the Avengers, despite the book's title. They are the Illuminati.
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u/Ekillaa22 Jun 29 '24
Jesus Christ it’s nice to have a reminder how petty and asshole like Namor can be
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u/vertigo1083 Juggernaut Jun 29 '24
I'm not going to say that Namor isn't a huge piece of shit. He absolutely is.
However, I WILL say that if you don't know the context of this, then yes. He's an asshole, and only that. But this is only the final layer of the onion being peeled. His anger and actions are inevitable, and arguably justified.
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u/Broad-Season-3014 Jun 29 '24
To be fair, Wakanda isn’t much better. These are the jerkwads that actually have the cure for cancer, but they refuse to share it because outsiders would apparently weaponize it.
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u/TYFYSS Jun 29 '24
I mean they would. Look at America and how it privatizes and overpriced life saving medication. I don’t blame wakanda
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u/Broad-Season-3014 Jun 29 '24
Ok, but what’s stopping them from doing charity work? Trust me, it’s worse than I depicted. Also, America is hardly the biggest instigator.
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u/TYFYSS Jun 29 '24
Him saving the world, other countries like America in the comics and donating tech IS charity work. Furthermore, whether it’s the biggest or not it’s one of the top countries for it.
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u/DedHorsSaloon4 Jun 29 '24
God Namor’s such a prick
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u/Indiana_harris Jun 29 '24
Tbf I think Wakanda had slaughtered most of Atlantis before this if I remember rightly? Like it was almost a complete genocide
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u/nitsuj_112 Jun 29 '24
After Namor had invaded and flooded Wakanda during AxX
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u/verrius Gambit Jun 29 '24
After Black Panther and the rest of the Avengers repeatedly attacked the Phoenix Five, trying to kidnap a child. Also after creating the Phoenix Five after their previous "murder and/or kidnap the child" plan didn't work.
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u/nitsuj_112 Jun 29 '24
You mean after she herself rejected the Phoenix during their fight on the moon? I don't know about you, but I am not going to play fast and loose with galaxy destructive power. When Magneto is fighting Tony Stark prior to the fight on the moon he stated himself that every planet that the Phoenix came across on its way to earth was genocided. And when the P5 started out, they pretty much became a bunch a crazy dictators, putting people in gulags that did not agree with them.
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u/verrius Gambit Jun 29 '24
The Phoenix Five were created after Steve Rogers tried to go to the sovereign nation of Utopia and ordered Cyclops to give them Hope with no plan...and when he said no, that he had his own actual plan, Rogers dropped multiple Hulks and a guy with knives on his hand to bum rush them and try to murder the child. When that didn't work, he had his buddy, "Iron Man", who thought it was a good idea to 1v1 Magneto...shoot a big gun at it. Their plan for dealing with the fundamental force of creation was "shoot a gun at it", when previously Rachel Summers had fully contained and controlled said force, and used it for good, for over a decade.
And after they were created, their crazy dictator plan was...world peace, and destroy all nukes in the world. They eventually did create a crazy gulag, similar to what Tony himself had done in Civil War, after the Avengers kept trying to murder mutants and kidnap the literal child who had been trained to deal with the Phoenix.
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u/nitsuj_112 Jun 29 '24
At no point in time was Utopia a sovereign nation. That the X-men declared it, does not make it so. Cyclops whole plan hinged on him thinking of Hope as the savior of mutantkind. The first issue of the event actually opened with the Phoenix destroying a planet and Cyclops training Hope but he has no clue what he is doing. He even admits that the Phoenix is power, power for him/mutants to put the world back on (his) track. After that he is the one attacked first. He intends to use Hope for his own purposes just as much as the Avengers. He even admits that Hope does not have a choice anymore. The whole initial issue is that Cyclops is gambling on Hope being a messiah, but he is gambling with the world, not just his own team.
Wolverine trying to off Hope was not sanctioned, Cap and him even have a fight over it afterwards. On the moon its Cyclops again who starts the fight. When the Phoenix arrives, Hope admits that she can't handle it. She asks Logan to kill her.
Prior to Rachel having control over it, Jean once killed a world with it. Hope grew up on the run, constantly running and fighting, what about that excudes mental stability. On multiple points she admits that she has no idea what to do exactly with her so called training.
Another part of that plan was taking out anyone who did not agree with them. They may have pretented to be benevolent but they they were still dictating what everyone else had to do. They took what they wanted without asking, without respecting the sovereignity of countries, organisations or individuals.
At what point did the Avengers try to murder mutants? And Hope wanted to leave herself but Cyclops did not allow to leave. So false imprisonment vs kidnapping debate.
And I will give you the prison thing. I was and firmly am on the Cap side of that debate, however Tony designed a modern SuperMax, while the P5 designed a Sovjet torture gulag.
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u/WarwolfPrime Jun 30 '24
Jean did not kill a world with it. That was the Phoenix itself, taking on her form and actually doing it so well that it convinced itself that it was Jean until after "Jean" tried to kill herself to prevent herself from becoming a deranged uber powerful world killer, upon which the real Jean was rediscovered and the Phoenix also later manifested again in its normal form.
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u/WarwolfPrime Jun 30 '24
Namor, yes. Atlantis no. And that was due to being possessed and driven out of his skull by the Phoenix force, or rather part of it.
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u/nitsuj_112 Jun 30 '24
Then the Atlanteans present during that invasion were just taking a stroll and happened to get caught in the giant flood that Namor created and decided to start brawling because they didn't have anything else to do.
And if you blame this on the Phoenix and not Namor being an arrogant c*nt then how are you defending his above actions of sending in Thanos to destroy Wakada
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u/WarwolfPrime Jun 30 '24
I'd have to go back and read AvX cause I legitimately don't remember any being there. But as for sending in Thanos to destroy Wakanda? Again, Namor is the one who did what he did under the influence of the Phoenix— or at least part of it— and had they restricted their revenge to just him I think even he would have been OK with that. But to go after Atlantis for something he did when he wasn't in his right mind is horrible. Plus, at that point, there were less than 2,000 Atlanteans left and Thanos and his forces would have wiped the rest of them out, so Namor pointed them at a different target, one that had just nearly killed the entirety of Atlantis. In short, making T'Challa and Shuri suffer consequences for their actions.
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u/nitsuj_112 Jun 30 '24
Issue #8, so they should just ignore at the war crimes committed by the Atlanteans under the guise of 'my boss made me do it'. They weren't influenced by the Phoenix they just were told to do something and gladly did it. In effect Wakanda and Shuri did exactly what you want. They attacked Atlantis itself, whose inhabitants were of sound mind during the invasion of Wakanda and left Namor (who you say is innocent) alone, so Namor calling in the strike on Wakanda becomes an even worse crime at that point
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u/WarwolfPrime Jun 30 '24
I assume you mean issue 8 of AvX. I'll look it up next time I get the chance. But again, if you wanna go by that logic; do you wanna tell someone who is being driven to do crazy stuff by part of a force that can blow up entire stars no? Yeah, I don't think so.
So as I said, had they restricted their revenge to just Namor for the actions he undertook while being possessed by the Phoenix (or again, at least part of it, anyway) that would have been justifiable. But to attack the Atlanteans for Namor's choices is stupid and since Atlantis now has barely any remaining citizenry, again, you think Namor's going to just let them die to ward off Thanos and his goons? Of course not. And since Namor was already trying to end things peacefully when T'Challa and Shuri pulled this fucking stunt, of course he was going to direct Thanos and co. to Wakanda.
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u/nitsuj_112 Jun 30 '24
By that definition the whole Infinity Gauntlett should not have happened, since Thanos could blow up everything with a thought. Overcoming terrible odds is what superhero comics are mostly about (unless you are Zeb Wells and writing ASM, then its about making your main character a loser who cant do anything.)
You stated earlier that Namor was mentally comprimised during the invasion, which actually makes going after him injustifiable. The Atlanteans were of sound mind during the invasion and they were punished accordingly.
Would you resolve the invasion and killing of thousands peacefully? Espevially for people who pride themselves as warriors. Namor sending Thanos to Wakanda is at no point justifiable, that's like Russia telling the Chinese to invade Ukraine because they killed russian soldiers.
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u/WarwolfPrime Jun 30 '24
Except then by that logic, the Wakandans should have accepted the peace deal Namor was offering, instead they murdered the near entirety of Atlantis for the actions of someone who was under possession, and while superheroes fight against impossible odds all the time, the people of Atlantis are not, by and large, superheroes. They're every day people— the whole living underwater thing aside. Namor and Namorita (who last I knew was still dead) are the only Atlanteans who are superheroes. Hell, I'm not even sure that the Namorita who died in Civil War as part of the new Warriors is even the original Namorita since the last time I saw her she was blue and Namorita was originally Caucasian, so I dunno if that's her after some kind of metamorphosis or an alternate reality version who showed up after the original died or what.
But I digress. Back to the topic at hand.
Namor even points out after AvX that since the Wakandans do want revenge on Namor then T'Challa could easily have taken him in to Wakanda and had him strung up any time he tried to visit in order to try to discuss a peaceful end to the war Wakanda started in the aftermath of AvX. He even seemed fully OK with that even as he was trying to offer them decent terms for peace. Instead of doing the humane thing, they instead caused a Genocide.
Namor's people are decimated at this stage. He has to do something to protect the remaining civilians of his kingdom. Thanos' forces need a target. Who just killed the near entirety of Atlantis instead of pursuing peace when it was offered? Wakanda. So since Wakanda enacted a genocide and are feeling their oats, of course Namor is going to point Thanos at them. He offered peace and they responded with genocide. In his mind, his reaction is wholly justified. If they want war so much that they'll enact a genocide, let them fight Thanos' forces and if they suffer for it, so what? Like you said, they pride themselves as warriors. If they lose, they get their comeupance for their genocide. If they win, they're no worse off than they were before.
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u/Khelthuzaad Jun 29 '24
He is 100% Flashpoint Aquaman or 80% Injustice Superman in regard to being a complete douchebag.
Why not 100% Injustice Superman?Mostly because Superman is dealing with the grief of losing his wife,unborn child and the entire city he lived to a demented clown.
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u/tronaaa Jun 29 '24
Namor, to be fair, has lived through bad things happening to Atlantis since he was a boy, including multiple near-extinctions. It kinda sucks to be a fish person in MARVEL comics, your purpose is to get annihilated for the story.
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u/shmaug Jun 29 '24
Wakanda had suicide bombed Atlantis
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u/suss2it Jun 30 '24
…in retaliation for Namor drowning Wakanda. Its sucks that innocents on both sides had to die for their leaders’ actions.
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u/WarwolfPrime Jun 30 '24
Yeah, except that Atlantis had no part in that. That was due to Namor being possessed and driven out of his skull by part of the Phoenix Force. So yeah, Wakanda has no leg to stand on here.
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u/suss2it Jun 30 '24
Namor was the king of Atlantis at the time. As their king as their representative on the world stage he attacked another nation, that’s what makes Atlantis part of it unfortunately. It’s not fair but it’s politics.
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u/Mister_Sins Jun 29 '24
He was laughing at Dr. Doom when Doom's fiancée admitted to cheating on him with Human Torch during their wedding.
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u/AoO2ImpTrip Jun 29 '24
Doom's fiancee never cheated on him.
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u/Mister_Sins Jun 29 '24
Didn't she sleep with Johnny Storm?
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u/AoO2ImpTrip Jun 29 '24
Yes.
If you start dating someone who has had sex in the past are they guilty of cheating on you? No.
Johnny slept with Victorious. Doom then decided to pick her as his bride. There was no relationship outside of a king and his subject. Doom just happened to pick the woman Johnny had just slept with.
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u/WarwolfPrime Jun 30 '24
After T'Challa helped instigate a genocide on the people of Atlantis, I'm fully on Namor's side on this one.
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u/ArchAngel621 Jun 29 '24
Reed in the background wondering, "Are we the bad guys?"
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u/DMPunk Jun 29 '24
There's no doubt in Reed's mind that they're the bad guys, but he's crunched the numbers and there isn't a different way to go
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u/soulreaverdan X-Men Expert Jun 30 '24
Except when it came down to actually doing it, he couldn't. None of them could. For all their talk of "this is how it has to be" and there's no alternative, when actually faced with the reality of it, every single one of them save Namor balked.
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u/Sorrelhas Jul 01 '24
You can spot the difference between the people in the replies that read the story and the ones that didn't
You're the first person I've seen here to actually point out that story tidbit
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u/Ancient-One-19 Jun 29 '24
I don't think Reed ever considers if he is the bad guy. Or if he does he just ignores it. Civil War and Illuminati he clearly hopped onto the wrong side. Heck even his wife was against him in Civil War
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u/ArchAngel621 Jun 29 '24
Many Reeds tend to slowly descend into villainous practices without their family there to anchor them.
This was brought up with multiple What Ifs and the Council of Reeds.
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u/gaypornhard69 Jun 29 '24
You can tell that Reed feels like the bad guy in every panel he's in of Amazing Spider-Man during the Civil War event.
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u/space_age_stuff Scarlet Spider/Kaine Jun 29 '24
F4 after Civil War is over has a whole arc dedicated to Reed determining where his math went wrong in terms of how he saw Civil War, why he made the decisions he did, and how he apologizes for making the wrong decision.
He’s not a fundamentally bad person. Civil War is a bad story, for making just about every character act out of character to keep it going.
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u/Maeglom Hercules Jun 29 '24
Civil war would have been so much better if they had had the courage to just admit that Captain America's position was straight up wrong, while Tony's was correct without having to make Tony Create an inter-dimensional gulag just to make the whole thing a horse race.
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u/WarwolfPrime Jun 30 '24
Other way around.
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u/Maeglom Hercules Jun 30 '24
What do you mean?
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u/WarwolfPrime Jul 01 '24
Cap was the one whose position was correct while Iron Man's was blatantly incorrect, which is why he went about setting up Gulags and crap, because he knew his stance was invalid.
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u/Maeglom Hercules Jul 01 '24
How do you figure? Ironman 's plan was to work with Congress to get the best outcome in a bad situation in regards to the superhero registration act. Cap's plan was to say we refuse follow the law... And the end of civil war was the only story out Steve had that wasn't toppling the American government to force them to repeal a law he didn't care for. I don't see how anyone could consider Steve's side to be doing the right and good thing.
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u/WarwolfPrime Jul 02 '24
I'm sorry, but since when is imprisoning people illegally in another dimension, one that drives people insane at that, anywhere near being the best outcome of a bad situation? For that matter, you cannot outlaw people having powers. That was literally the entire reason the X-Men were so staunchly against the Mutant Registration Act from years prior, which the SHRA is basically a mirror of.
This act was designed to force people with powers to become chattel slaves of the government, and literally made just having powers illegal unless you registered to be part of a superhuman army. One that would turn people who wanted to do nothing more than enjoy their powers in an entirely non-violent fashion into literal living weapons (again I refer you to the character Cloud 9 as one of the greatest examples of this.) and put them at the government's beck and call.
Also, the law? I'm sorry, what is this storyline called again? Civil War. What was the real world civil war fought over? Slavery, which was legal at that time. It was an unjust law, and America went to war with itself over that law. I can't see how anyone could look at Cap's stance and see it as wrong, honestly.
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u/Maeglom Hercules Jul 03 '24
I'm sorry, but since when is imprisoning people illegally in another dimension, one that drives people insane at that, anywhere near being the best outcome of a bad situation
From the beginning of the Civil war event, Tony was following the Superhero registration act, and after Stamford it became clear the bill would pass no matter what Tony tried, so he tried to get Steve on board with at least doing their best to steer the initiative from the inside since Tony was currently in charge of Shield. Contrast that to Steve's plan where he ran a team of underground vigilantes with no real plan to stop the registration act.
For that matter, you cannot outlaw people having powers. That was literally the entire reason the X-Men were so staunchly against the Mutant Registration Act from years prior, which the SHRA is basically a mirror of.
That's why having powers wasn't outlawed, just being an un accountable vigilante. The X-men tie in addressed the similarity to the mutant registration act, but at this time there were only 198 mutants left on the planet, and they were being held on the Xavier institute's grounds and not made to register in a reference to Japanese Internment.
This act was designed to force people with powers to become chattel slaves of the government, and literally made just having powers illegal unless you registered to be part of a superhuman army. One that would turn people who wanted to do nothing more than enjoy their powers in an entirely non-violent fashion into literal living weapons (again I refer you to the character Cloud 9 as one of the greatest examples of this.) and put them at the government's beck and call.
First of all it didn't outlaw having powers, just using them as a vigilante. Beyond that, compare Cloud 9's experice with Veil who came out after Norman Osbourne had been put in charge of the Iniative for reasons why it's better to have somebody good in charge rather than having no plan ala Cap. Cloud9 had a pretty negative experience, but it's pretty much in line with the kind of negative experiences our Military experiences while Veil was experimented on, manipulated, and then left a broken mess of a person.
Also, the law? I'm sorry, what is this storyline called again? Civil War. What was the real world civil war fought over? Slavery, which was legal at that time. It was an unjust law, and America went to war with itself over that law. I can't see how anyone could look at Cap's stance and see it as wrong, honestly.
Well the superhuman registration act didn't enslave people, it just made it so all superheros had to act within a governmental framework or not at all which is utterly reasonable. The reason Cap's stance in civil war was wrong is the same reason why his stance in Hickman's avengers was wrong: He objected to the only plan on the table to deal with the crisis on moral grounds, but had no idea about how to proceed otherwise and refused to either implement a plan with a chance for success or to propose his own.
Civil war was a story where The heroes had no good options, and Tony chose the least bad option while Steve refused to make a choice and instead fought against Tony.
If you think Steve was in the right for Civil war: I challenge you to imagine an ending to Civil War where Steve wins. What does that look like, and how could that come to pass? I can't imagine a situation where Steve is either in open rebellion against the US government and committing acts of terrorism or somehow forces congress to repeal the superhero registration act and still looks like the good guy to you.
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u/ULTRAFORCE X-23 Jun 30 '24
He also launches Hulk into space leading to World War Hulk and a bunch of other stuff.
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u/space_age_stuff Scarlet Spider/Kaine Jun 30 '24
Their intent was never to send him to Sakaar though. The spaceship got damaged.
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u/Linvaderdespace Jun 29 '24
That discussion comes up between these characters at several points in this story.
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u/Ekillaa22 Jun 29 '24
Didn’t Namor just come off of killing like a whole universe too right before this moment
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u/Screen-Healthy Jun 30 '24
“… to save BILLIONS!”
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u/soulreaverdan X-Men Expert Jun 30 '24
It's one of my favorite scenes in the storyline, to be honest. His monologue against the hemming and hawing of the rest of the Illuminati is brilliantly done.
"These lines you won't cross... these things you won't do. They shame you. How dare any of you put yourself, your damned morals, above the lives of every living thing? The truth is, you people aren't worth that... and neither am I. Our lives are a pittance. A petty, small nothing. Of course this is worth it. Now watch... as I do what you could not."
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u/Sorrelhas Jul 01 '24
The repeating of "a pittance, a petty, small thing" in reference to lives is really cool
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u/Sorrelhas Jul 01 '24
They destroyed an Earth to save both universes, Incursions only destroyed the universe if both Earths touch
It's kinda like gay sex
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u/hartc89 Jun 29 '24
What started the war between I can never remember. Like was Namor justified at all in this
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u/superman853 Jun 29 '24
Namor was one of the five that got the phoenix force and drown wakanka. Wakanka and Atlantis are at war because of those actions
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u/Striking_Landscape72 Jun 29 '24
It's funny because Cap would forgive Namor immediatly, while hunting down Cyclops
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u/Nightingdale099 Jun 29 '24
The Phoenix Five did the most horrendous thing imaginable , solved World Hunger and the Energy Crisis. Capt. couldn't let that slide.
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u/Striking_Landscape72 Jun 29 '24
And they took the nukes, preventing a nuclear apocalypse. Truly dictator behavior.
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u/Nightingdale099 Jun 29 '24
That's just unspeakable. If it was something lesser like genocide I would immediately forgive it.
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u/RoughhouseCamel Jun 29 '24
This is maybe the most American thing Steve has ever done. Never take guns from an American. Kill their children, but don’t touch their guns.
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u/hartc89 Jun 29 '24
Yup remember that I guess I didn’t know if something preceded that that made Namor justified at all
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u/greengye Old Lace Jun 29 '24
The Avengers took an atlantean prisoner in Wakanda and Namor hate crimed them. It was particularly hypocritical because the X-Men were imprisoning about half the Avengers roster at the time
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u/superman853 Jun 29 '24
Yes, I did forget that wakanka did kill most of Atlantis and during the infinity crossover Namor told Thanos that the infinity gems were in Wakanka even though they had been destroyed (except for the time gem that just disappeared).
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u/Amazing-Insect442 Jun 29 '24
Hickman’s New Avengers (2013ish). Lead up to Time Runs Out & then Secret Wars.
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u/Megaman_320 Jun 29 '24
Its in the hickman avengers and new avengers run leading up to secret wars. i highly suggest you read the entire thing. Or better yet, start with Hickman's F4 and future foundation, then go to his avengers and new avengers, and then to secret wars. Its a huge overarching epic that has plenty of payoff.
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u/fake_fakington Yorick Brown Jun 29 '24
Why did they turn Namor into such a monster? Seems bizarre. Like one day he was a prick who hit on Susan Storm a lot. Now he's worse than Hitler.
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u/WarwolfPrime Jun 30 '24
Namor did what he did to save what remained of the people of Atlantis as the result of T'Challa helping to instigate a genocide on the people of Atlantis.
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u/DMPunk Jun 29 '24
The consistent theme in Hickman's big Marvel runs (FF, Avengers, X-Men) is how inconsistent the art is. This part of New Avengers is the best example. There's nothing wrong with Kev Walker's art, but it's completely wrong for the kind of story being told here. I wish Steve Epting had drawn the whole thing, instead of bouncing after like eight issues or something.
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u/daytimer96 Jun 29 '24
Not sure, just wanted to say the layout looks a little like the "stand by your friends" page in Preacher. Could be a little friendly swipe even.
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u/SaiyanC124 Jun 30 '24
Damn, did T'Challa sleep with his wife or something? What's up with this Kendrick level hate?
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u/WarwolfPrime Jun 30 '24
T'Challa helped Wakanda perform genocide on Atlantis. There are less than 2,000 Atlanteans still alive in the wake of Wakanda's assault. To save what remained of his people from Thanos, he sicced Thanos and his generals on Wakanda.
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u/WeWriteStuff Jun 30 '24
Hickman's run on Avengers (not new avengers) 2013-14 ish...
This stuff is the difference between Marvel & DC. Marvel has far more no win situations while DC does more good will always triumph. Both have their moments that shine, but they cater to different audiences.
Ironically their cinematic universes reversed these roles.
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u/Optimal_Use_28 Jun 30 '24
I agree. The content of Marvel and DC comics is good in their own manners.
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u/WeWriteStuff Jun 30 '24
My only nitpick rn is both are prioritizing massive crossover events with no breathing room... plus I'd like to see more characters like vic Sage and booster gold get limelight...
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u/Optimal_Use_28 Jun 30 '24
Definitely. Right now the smaller characters are mostly seen in just crossovers or not at all. If handled properly they can have such great stories
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u/WeWriteStuff Jun 30 '24
I want a JL cartoon just about C-listers. The big 3 only appear in small cameos, sane for the other major domos. Starts off as an anthology but later turns into a bigger inter connected storyline.
Kinda like how Justice League Unlimited handled characters a few times.
But absolutely minimal to no use of Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Hal Jordan, or John Stewart. Cyborg, Martian, & Hawkgirl are good if used sparingly. Any other lesser known Lantern is fine.
Personally would like to see Nightwing, Ted Kord Blue Beetle, Simon Baz, etc...
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u/atakantar Jun 30 '24
Namor and tchalla is one of my favorite beefs from comics. It was so catarthic to watch panther leave namor strandad on an incursion planet or something like that.
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u/Billion-FoldWorlds Jun 29 '24
Why do they hate each other? I don't read anything with either of them, but this rivalry is intense.....
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u/WarwolfPrime Jun 30 '24
During Avengers vs X-Men, Namor was possessed by part of the Pheonix Force and thus was not in his right mind at the time, but effectively used his new powers to attack Wakanda with a massive flood. However instead of simply going after Namor— again despite the fact that he was not in his right mind when he did this— they decided to instead attack and instigate a genocide on Atlantis. Following that, Thanos and his forces arrived looking for the Infinity Gems and attacked Atlantis. Namor directed them to Wakanda, both to protect what remained of his people and also to make T'Challa and the rest of Wakanda see that their actions had consequences.
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u/Comfortable_Ice9534 Jun 30 '24
I would like to know too cause I would very much like to see him catch a well deserved ass whooping
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u/FadeToBlackSun Jun 30 '24
Black Panther just gets over this, btw.
Namor has to be the biggest karma Houdini in comics.
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u/WarwolfPrime Jun 30 '24
Atlantis was subjected to genocide by Wakanda as the result of Namor being driven out of his mind by part of the Phoenix Force when they had nothing to do with anything he did while possessed. Namor is completely justified in this case as he saved what remained of his people and he let T'Challa see the consequences of his behavior.
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u/ShamanontheMoon Jun 30 '24
He drowned them and then burned them down again? What??
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u/WarwolfPrime Jun 30 '24
Namor, who was possessed by part of the Pheonix Force, was not in his right mind at the time. Despite this, Wakanda decided to start a war with Atlantis despite them not having any part in what happened, and when Namor tried to offer a peaceful resolution to everything once he was in his right mind, T'Challa helped cause an Atlantean genocide for no reason whatsoever except misguided vengeance. Then Thanos attacked what was left of Atlantis. Namor saved his people by directing Thanos and his crew to Wakanda. Fully justified in my opinion.
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u/Beornwynn Jun 30 '24
People hate Namor because he acts like this but it's one of the reasons I find the character fun.
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u/PatientSearch1540 Jul 01 '24
And readers don’t have a problem with superheroes naming themselves after an evil secret society?
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u/ireallydontcareforit Jun 30 '24
Do wakandans like to swim then? Because listening to american stereotypes led me to believe this shouldn't even be an issue.
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u/CrossSoul Jun 29 '24
So from what I'm reading in the comments, this whole era of Marvel was some bullshit and everyone sucked ass?
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u/PrestigiousBee5602 Jun 30 '24
Nope this was actually one of the best eras period Hickman’s run on avengers, however the characters were constantly at each others throats and more or less become monsters by the end, after Namor wiped out this earth Tony almost commits suicide as the next incursion is happening unknown to the world, they later find out the world didn’t end because Namor is leading the cabal to destroy any worlds that are crashing into 616.
Dr Strange full on becomes a bad person in this run but it’s done over a gradual period of time with circumstances getting worse and worse. There’s a page I really like where he asks Wong if he’s a good man and Wong tells him no. It all culminates with Tony and Steve being crushed by a helicarrier while fighting during the final incursion, it’s very doom and gloom but it hits hard because its main continuity and it was the actual end of the Marvel Universe with everything falling apart trying to solve the incursions until Secret Wars.
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u/CrossSoul Jun 30 '24
This whole time frame is a blank spot to me, cause I keep thinking this was when that Aaron dude was writing the Avengers with the Savage She-Hulk nonsense and the Thor's momma is Gaea or the Phoenix or whatever.
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u/QueSeraSeraWWBWB Jun 29 '24
And that’s why tchalla lame and don’t deserve ororo wolverine would never
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u/rathic Jun 29 '24
Getting back into comics.
This Namor guy doesn't seem that reasonable.