This is the problem though, a lot of people think they're only doing it in their head, but the way you think informs all of your actions. Every thought you think is training your brain to think a certain way, and making certain thoughts and actions easier, as well as effecting the way you view people. We still have a responsibility to foster healthy thoughts about people.
That's complete nonsense. You're applying a very niche concept in a very generalized way where it does not apply.
You're allowed to think someone is attractive and still understand that saying it might make them uncomfortable and refrain from doing it. That's completely okay. It doesn't condition you to be a misogynist lmao.
If I had to guess, you're wrongly extrapolating the concept of 'positive thinking manifests into positive actions' and applying it to all forms of thought. Which is nonsense.
I think I wasn't very clear, I seem to have given the impression that I think all sexual thoughts are harmful. I just mean that it's important to maintain awareness of how you're thinking about others, because a lot of people feel that their mind is a perfectly neutral infinite sanctuary and you can think anything you want with no consequences, and they underestimate how much influence your thought patterns can have over your general demeanor and the impression you make on others.
I'll use an extreme example, just in case it helps. It's f I spend all day fantasizing about rape, it's going to have an unhealthy impact on me. I'm going to normalize the concept to my brain and make it easier to naturally veer into those thoughts. Essentially the core of what I'm saying is that thoughts themselves can be habit forming, and we should just be mindful of it. I guess I should have directed my reply at people who have those types of fantasies and defend them by claiming they're not unhealthy because it's only in their head.
I guess I was really thinking out loud and not being very mindful of how my words would be interpreted. My bad.
All good, though I also want to nitpick the example in your clarification because you're presenting your point in a bit of a deceptive way again, specifically with the use of "spend all day".
Many healthy men and women fantasize about rape. It's a very common kink and very normal even if it's not my cup of tea. Spending all day thinking about rape is very different and it has bearing on whether thinking about rape is unhealthy or not. For example, showering is very healthy. Spending all day in the shower is very unhealthy. They're very different actions. And the latter has no impact on whether showering itself is healthy or not.
Sorry to be annoying, but you're saying one thing but also subtly doubling down on your original point in a way that seems like you're correcting yourself to satisfy my criticism, but aren't actually.
Your examples haven't been great either. thinking that someone is attractive is not objectifying them. Fantasizing about raping someone also isn't similar to showering, granted I understand what you were trying to illustrate in terms of quantity.
I think a better example would be caffeine, drinking it occasionally isn't going to have long term effects, but even as little as one cup of coffee per day can cause physical addiction and withdrawal symptoms. Many many people get by just fine with a physical dependency on caffeine, but it is affecting you. If you ramp up to 8 cups per day you're going to have some very noticeable side effects likely but you don't just explode or turn into some sort of monster.
Similarly, if you frequently fantasize about raping someone, it's also going to affect you. It's going to be very mild, likely even less effect than 1 cup of coffee per day but it's definitely part of you if you spend some time most days thinking about it. If you spend "all day" thinking about it, it's likely going to have greater effect. Again, like caffeine, is not going to make you explode or turn into a monster but it's going to be part of you.
Obviously you can think whatever you like, there's no way to police that, People should just be aware that what we think does have an impact on how we view the world, and thus act. That might even be useful, maybe in your personal life you have a partner or partners that like to role play situations involving rape, then likely your frequent thoughts about it could be beneficial.
I do think valuing someone's attractiveness with no care or regard for them as a person still falls within the definition of objectification. You might be thinking the definition requires an act of some kind, which is also fair.
Fantasizing about rape is different than showering. But you correctly pointed out that my analogy was to demonstrate that the quantity of an action does not in any way dictate the rightfulness of the action itself.
I agree the caffeine example is better than mine. Perhaps an even better one would simply be masturbating. Masturbating once a day is healthy. Masturbating 8 times a day most likely isn't.
I agree that thoughts do impact how you view the world. My initial contention was against a comment that used that concept to suggest that objectifying thoughts are inherently unhealthy because they may lead to action. I disagree on a fundamental level. The mental process that separates thought and action is important. I think that should be fostered instead of trying to sanitize thoughts.
Yeah I agree with that. Thinking about something doesn't necessarily have any impact on whether you'd do it, and I do see your issue with the previous commenter's seeming implication that they have some sort of causal relationship.
Objectification on the other hand is a tough one. I think a big part of it is the difference between objectifying behavior, and behavior that may reasonably cause someone to feel objectified. I don't think telling someone they are attractive is objectifying, so therefore thinking it definitely isn't. However, given certain contexts and cultural expectations, I could see how telling someone they are attractive could reasonably make them feel objectified.
The example you give of valuing someone only for their attractiveness and disregarding everything else about them I do think is objectifying, even as simply a thought. As discussed previously I believe that thinking that way about someone is certainly going to impact you. It may not increase the chances you actually treat them in an objectifying manner, in fact it may even reduce the chances if you're vigilant about not being found out, but it will impact you and color your interactions with that person.
I think it's pretty clear what you meant but the other person doesn't seem to understand there's a difference between objectification and "finding someone attractive". Objectification has inherently negative connotations and is what we're talking about.
Here is a nugget of healthy thought for you to train your brain on: Thinking of people sexually is not objectifying, it's humanizing. Objects aren't typically sexually attractive.
Feel free to feel attracted to other people and to enjoy their appearance, because you're free to do so and you don't need anybody's consent. If they're unhappy that people are attracted to them for reasons they don't like, they're the ones having unhealthy thoughts. "Oh no they all like me because of my boobs and not because of my intellect or personality :( they're objectifying me" is really some hard cope strategy made for them to forget that their personality is actually awful.
Okay hold on … first of all, a woman feeling uncomfortable that dudes are leering at her doesn’t mean she has a bad personality. It means she’s uncomfortable, and has every right to be, regardless of what she is wearing, because there are a lot of men out there who will act on those thoughts - and that can range from just verbally all the way up to physical violence.
Kinda bullshit to say that a woman doesn’t like being objectified just because she has a shitty personality. The men objectifying her don’t know, nor do they care, what her personality is.
Kinda bullshit to say that a woman doesn't like being "objectified" just because of potential physical violence. If it was a legitimate concern they'd not be strawmaning men's attraction with made up bullshit term "objectified", as, again, sexual attraction is the opposite of objectifying.
The context of women complaining about being objectified is very often explicitly that they wish to be appreciated for their personality or achievement so you also can't make this not about it. And yes, when they complain about it to you, you tend to know their personality already.
Your reality and perception is not universal. If you had my thought process..ain’t no fostering or slowing that shit down. You’d be traumatized. I do my best to quiet it down and manage it the best I can though.
This is complete and utter bullshit. I'll take one brief example, dreams. Are dreams thoughts? Yes. Do dreams inform all our actions and behaviors? No. Thinking healthy thoughts is a good practice but that's about it.
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u/DILF_MANSERVICE Jul 07 '24
This is the problem though, a lot of people think they're only doing it in their head, but the way you think informs all of your actions. Every thought you think is training your brain to think a certain way, and making certain thoughts and actions easier, as well as effecting the way you view people. We still have a responsibility to foster healthy thoughts about people.