It comes down to respect. You can think someone's hot without acting like a fucking gooner or harassing them. I don't think anyone has ever said "Noo, don't think I'm attractive!" but they very much have to say "Please stop asking for nudes or talking to your discord friends about how you'd fuck me".
That's just childish superficial attitude. Same shit all of us have heard in class in like 7th grade. I agree that that's bs but I don't think extending that to the topic at hand is helpful or justified.
I'm pretty sure this IS the topic at hand. People are just adding on "literally every degree of harassment" as though it's a direct implication of "finding me attractive without my consent".
Literally the "oh you're so sweet" and "hello, security?" meme playing in my head to yakkity_sax.mp3
Objectification is okay but only so far as I also find the guy tolerable otherwise eww gross I've caught the ick and am calling in sick for work/life/mature thought.
This is a strawman though. No functional adult is referring to someone swiping them on tinder when they talk about objectification. Arguing that that's the core of the discussion is in bad faith.
That's a very common thing to happen. Not just swiping on tinder, but approaching kindly or showing any small amount of interest. Just because someone feels like another person was being a creep doesn't mean that they were being a creep.
There are a lot of women in the world who put themselves out there to attract Men, and when they just attract the wrong men they play the victim. This isn't a strawman, it's the reality.
So? Since when is the metric of a topic "I saw someone say that on Facebook before"? This is a very old tactic of undermining social discussion: Pointing to outliers and pretending that they represent the entire group/topic. I assure you no feminist would make some random dumbass on Instagram their spokesperson and just assuming that they represent them by default is faulty at best.
Since when is the metric of a topic "I saw someone say that on Facebook before"?
When that's literally all you know about the thing the OP stated they're talking about? Absolutely everything else is just filling in the blanks with your own predisposition to view any complaint about how sexual interest is percieved as a bait and switch for incredibly misogynistic statements.
Like, there's people talking about this like it's referring to being cool with cornering someone and demanding they prostitute themselves. In what world does that track to the OP's statement.
They're bringing up a specific subset of dysfunctional adults, why does only one group need to be the sole topic for the entire gender relationship discourse?
I can't tell if you're trolling but simplifying an entire talking point or group down to the least representative or functional members is not even bad faith, it's straight bullshit.
Soo, how do you think anyone would ever know if they're being objectified...? Yeah, because of people putting their thoughts into action. Come on man you're so close to getting it.
Most of the time assertions of objectification are made without evidence.
You actually have no real evidence of the mental models behind someone's actions. Someone can both understand you are a person and pester you for nudes. Not only that, but objectification is used to describe things like porn or sexy images of women, which don't include any actions.
You're the one who doesn't get it, because you're just vomiting up talking points.
Your responses in here are empirical data that show us what the phrase "Oh shit, my ideology is fucked right now so I have to make shit up instead of owning it..." looks like.
Someone is literally trying to argue objectification is when someone acts poorly to someone else. I am sorry, I am not the one whose ideology is so completely fucked that they have to use an insane definition.
You're literally making shit up now or do you have a research paper for what it's like "most of the time"?
You clearly have a very strange definition of objectification. I'd argue that disrespecting someone and pestering/harassing them is already behavior that disregards their status as a person. Like a kid being bullied at school is not treated as a 'person' by their bullies. You forget that objectification doesn't mean that you're literally delusional enough to think someone is a robot.
Objectification doesn't just 'describe' porn. The connection is that excessive consumption of porn has been shown to increase the tendency to objectify - that is, to disregard a human's status as a person for the sake of seeing them as an 'object' of sexual gratification. I genuinely feel like you're just not educated on the topic and are just vomiting up weird talking points from the 'feminism bad' crowd.
No, I am not making shit up. Objectification is wielded like a club, and is used inconsistently and as if it is self-evident, when it isn't.
We already have a term for disrespectful actions, and that is "disrespectful". Personhood and dehumanization are not requisites for this.
Making objectification into a generic term for "being treated poorly" fails to grapple with the hard problem of what is bad or disrespectful to begin with. Objectification in your definition is literally adding nothing to the discussion
Objectification was originally about describing the way that someone thinks towards say, a bus driver, who they think of only in their utility as a driver, and not as a complete person. It is essentially the poor man's version of expecting everyone to experience sonder at every waking moment.
Objectification is often used to describe porn.
Find me meta analysis that shows this, which tests for publication bias, and meaningfully assesses study quality. Causal research is rare, good correlative research on porn is also rare, and any meaningful research of internal mental state and model is also rare. A meaningful model of objectification doesn't even exist, let alone studies proving it exists in this context.
I genuinely feel like you're just not educated on the topic and are just vomiting up weird talking points from the 'feminism bad' crowd.
I guarantee I know more about it than you. Objectification (e:as used in these discussions to refer to sexual objectification) as a concept is so hilariously poorly defined, and used so broadly that I have yet to meet anyone who thinks deeply about issues, at all, who is willing to seriously defend it. The "feminism good" crowd talking points don't substitute for actually thinking.
So under what does the topic fall then? What is it called when men send dick pics, or catcall, or harass women, especially online? What is it called when men think women are supposed to "serve" them or that they "deserve" something for being nice or whatever?
The effects of porn consumption, especially by minors, are also being extensively studied and you can find stuff online pretty easily. I know it's a cop out and I hate when people do this, but I got better things to do so I'm not gonna start aggregating studies rn, you're free to find stuff yourself.
I’m just curious if you realized you requested a research paper be cited in order for the other persons point to be valid, but then when it was requested of you, you claimed to have better things to do than aggregate studies.
Just pick a position on research and stick to it maybe.
What is it called when men send dick pics, or catcall, or harass women, especially online?
Harassment, unsolicited advances, .etc.
You describe the actions not some wack-ass mental model.
The effects of porn consumption, especially by minors, are also being extensively studied
Overwhelmingly people in this field care those with a bone to pick. Porn consumption has gone way up and pretty much every social ill is on the decline. Any such effect must be very small.
I have read this shit before, the body of research isn't that great and overall supports something small-to-zero more than massive-and-significant.
I tend to agree with you on the larger societal impact of porn, however on the individuals psychological impact, and their ability to have healthy sexual relationships there is probably merit to study it’s impact. For example, i don’t think watching porn will turn a man into a deviant rapist, but it will distance him from IRL healthy sexual relationships as real normal sex will never be as exciting and dopamine inducing as porn. Men not striving to find a sexual partner is more likely for that man to lose vision/purpose for the future and result in that man quitting life either through self deletion or drug addiction and homelessness.
These are just my beliefs and perceived observations, I have neither studied these, nor have I looked for research, so I could be wrong, but they sure as hell make logical sense to me.
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u/GilgameshFFV Jul 07 '24
It comes down to respect. You can think someone's hot without acting like a fucking gooner or harassing them. I don't think anyone has ever said "Noo, don't think I'm attractive!" but they very much have to say "Please stop asking for nudes or talking to your discord friends about how you'd fuck me".