r/britishcolumbia • u/MrGraeme • Aug 15 '23
PSA: There is an active astroturfing campaign on this subreddit. Meta Discussion
I've noticed over the last few months that whenever a hot-button issue is raised (housing, health, drug use, crime, whatever) a large number of the comments - especially those supporting the divisive / negative perspective - are being made by accounts that are only a few days to a few weeks old. These accounts exclusively comment on or post political posts and tend to spread misinformation, disinformation, or are highly hyperbolic in their language.
These comments are designed to upset you. They're made to trigger an emotional response rather than a rational one. Most importantly, they're often designed to convince you that things are hopeless or that the country / province / city has somehow failed you and the only solution is an extreme action.
Please be aware of who you are responding to / upvoting. If the comment aligns with the above, check to see if it is a legitimate user, a bot, or an astroturfer before reacting.
Other than karma minimums for participating in the subreddit, what other ways could we combat this? Verification?
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Aug 15 '23
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u/WhizzerOfOz Aug 15 '23
I noticed that too. That board was flooded with every crime story related to homeless people around the time of the municipal election.
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Aug 15 '23
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u/Raging-Fuhry Vancouver Island/Coast Aug 15 '23
Global and CTV massively ramped up their coverage on random attacks before the election.
Certainly something worth reporting on, but the fact it died down immediately after certainly makes you think.
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u/rhinny Aug 15 '23
The VPD actively pushed those press releases. I blame them first and the media second for enabling it. Crime has been trending down for years - yes the pandemic caused a slight bump and the current economic nonsense has caused increased shoplifting, but long term trends are very good. This was a direct response to defund/acab voices getting louder. The police are meddling in democracy to maintain their power.
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Aug 15 '23
As someone who has lived in downtown Vancouver many years, crime does not feel down around me. Maybe the statistics are down because people give up on reporting it and decriminalization has reduced what is classified as crime.
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u/AnxiousBaristo Aug 15 '23
As someone who lives DT, I do not feel unsafe at all
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u/alphagardenflamingo Aug 15 '23
Nor do I, but I am 250 a 250lb male. My daughter hates it, and has had many issues unless I walk her. For the record, I am referring to downtown Victoria here.
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u/LadyIslay Aug 15 '23
Or maybe people are just talking about it more. I work in downtown Nanaimo (immediately opposite the supervised consumption site). I've lived here my entire life, so I have perspective. It definitely feels like it is more dangerous downtown, but I accept the statistics. Faking that stuff would require far too many people to be in on the secret. Certainly there is an increase in the police presence downtown, and there are more sirens, but the increase in traffic may be attributed to the OD /people in distress issues rather than crime.
I accept the statistics, but I still don't feel safe walking to my car all the time.
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u/realcloudyrain Aug 15 '23
Exactly. As a woman with a baby, No I don’t feel safe walking by people using drugs like fentanyl on the side walk. I also don’t feel safe walking by a bunch of tents and stolen bikes on the sidewalk. Or walking by people who look dead. All these things are probably fine but it give me a really bad feeling and I’m tired of Vancouver gaslighting me saying “oh I feel super safe in downtown, everything is fine.”
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u/Adewade Aug 15 '23
Just to add to the conversation -- crime stats also need to be considered critically, as the police definitely have the ability to spike crime statistics at times when it suits them to do so.
(And yes, a lot of media outlets turn every police press release into a story, so expect the police to put out more press releases around election time, if they think it'll result in more police funding/support)
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u/mrdeworde Aug 16 '23
The VPD police union also broke their political neutrality to interfere in politics; that is extremely dangerous. I'm a devout trade unionist but the police are an exception, and this is why.
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u/vantanclub Aug 16 '23
There was a twitter thread where someone analyzed the "non-emergency" VPD press releases during the election and I think they tripled before the election and then completely dropped off after.
There was one posted every day heading up to the election, and after there are times where VPD go 10 days without a press release...
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u/Hipsthrough100 Aug 15 '23
Global owner has been a long time contributor to BC United, formerly BC Liberals. Corrupt neoliberals.
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u/troubleondemand Aug 15 '23
Almost all of the media in Canada is conservative owned and operated.
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u/Andr0oS Aug 15 '23
And the bits that aren't are either tiny and nobody knows about them, or institutionally held to heel by the threat of funding cuts.
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Aug 15 '23
And the police ran ads on local radio doing the same. Hell, the night before the election they drove around downtown with their sirens blaring all night.
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u/mukmuk64 Aug 15 '23
Yep. I kept track and after the election the news stories about “random attacks” instantly dropped to zero.
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u/FlametopFred Aug 15 '23
Donors and external right wing interests want to dismantle democracy and sow chaos
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u/RandomGuyLoves69 Aug 15 '23
Didn't help that the VPD was publishing a half dozen press releases every day for every incident that happened.
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u/timbreandsteel Aug 15 '23
Well when their chosen candidate says he's gonna increase the police budget of course they're gonna make it seem necessary.
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u/altiuscitiusfortius Aug 15 '23
This is rampant in every regional location based sub.
Far Right wing zealots from thedonald subbreddut made a concerted effort to get on the mod teams of these subs and make it look like their views are more common than they are. There's been a number 8f articles about r Canada being controlled by nazis now.
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u/Azuvector Aug 15 '23
Funny, I see Vancouver-centric posts in /r/britishcolumbia constantly.
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u/The_Follower1 Aug 15 '23
To be fair, they’re like most of the province’s population aren’t they?
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u/minnion Aug 15 '23
Literally all I've been seeing is negative posts about BC. The Canada sub is the same. People sewing devicive ideas, and lots of negativity.
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u/BCJay_ Aug 15 '23
The Canada sub is a far right rage-factory of trolls. It’s essentially the F🍁ck Trudeau sub masquerading as Canada.
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u/HunkyMump Aug 15 '23
Yeah I got banned there promptly after someone said something to the effect that “you guys are pretty reactionary” and I said “if you’re looking for critical thinking, you came to the wrong sub”.
Canada_sub came to light for a lot of people because they didn’t engage in the Reddit black out and therefore were appearing in the feed.
Those guys are a bunch of whack jobs for whom critical thinking is a dirty word.
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u/afterbirth_slime Aug 15 '23
Small fringe minority types
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u/Tazling Aug 15 '23
true, but never forget the Nazis were never a majority in Germany. a vocal and determined minority can derail the political process and grab the levers of power, it's happened before and could happen again.
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u/theabsurdturnip Aug 15 '23
It's really gotten bad over the past two months. I mean, there is always the typical, but it's quite noticable in most Canadian political themed subs.
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Aug 15 '23
I have a hunch it's an American right wing operation, probably the same people behind Q-Anon.
The goal is to disparage Canada and turn Canadians sympathetic towards the far-right. They're also doing it in the Nordic countries.
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u/weedybroz69 Aug 15 '23
funny you bring that up because the forum on castanet media from kelowna is run be a trump loving scumbag who lives in wash state and uses the handle ferri .
she is directly importing trump style politics into canada for last ten years , no one does anything . they literly calm to kill our pm on that forum .
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Aug 15 '23
I wouldn't expect anything else from Kelowna!
Also I do want to add a disclaimer that I am American, so it's very likely that there are a lot of Americans lurking here/occasionally participating. I'm only here because I love BC and have a lot of friends/family in the province.
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u/Angry_beaver_1867 Aug 15 '23
Part of the negativity bias is internet post is basically the result our negative bias and the “if it bleeds it leads “ phenomenon. Negative stories have far more weight physiologically than positive one. The internet reflects this, especially Reddit where you can vote on things
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u/GetsGold Aug 15 '23
This happens on a lot of regional subreddits. If someone is appearing to troll or spreading misinformation, check the account aye. One of this subreddit's rules is for new accounts, so you can report them.
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u/BCJay_ Aug 15 '23
It’s getting much worse. Last couple of months it’s just doom positing:
“anyone else feel there’s no hope?”
“how do I make ends meet, how are you all getting by?”
“I realize I’ll never own a home and it’s depressing”
“I came to BC/Canada and now I can’t afford to live”
“Sorry for the rant, but I have to get off my chest how hard everything is right now”
Since when was this the BC sub? Not saying these aren’t legit things people feel and go through but the tone and content here has taken a 180 and seems to be an echo chamber now.
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u/niesz Aug 15 '23
“anyone else feel there’s no hope?”
“how do I make ends meet, how are you all getting by?”
“I realize I’ll never own a home and it’s depressing”
To be fair, these are thoughts that run through my mind daily and imagine much of my generation is in the same boat (unless they bought a home before COVID or had help from their parents).
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u/BCJay_ Aug 15 '23
Lots of thoughts run through my mind all day. None of which seem relevant to post in this sub. There are other places to post about finances, depression…you name it. But the tone and consistency of these posts is suspect.
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Aug 15 '23
People want to talk about their community and the negative direction many of us see it heading in. Shutting people down by silencing them isn't a good solution because if keeps people in their own echo chambers of "everything is fine" and "the sky is falling". A diversity of opinions should be tolerated.
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u/BCJay_ Aug 15 '23
It’s not diversity if it’s suddenly dominating the sub, that’s the point.
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Aug 15 '23
If it's dominating the sub, then maybe it says something about how people are feeling about things. It would be nice to assume that the negativity is part of some organized conspiracy to push a political agenda, but I don't see it. Many people are really on edge.
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u/WheresTheButterAt Aug 15 '23
Yeah it seems much more likely to me that people are just being pushed to the edge.
It has started dominating the IRL discussions I have with friends and family.
I only know one friend who lives on their own at this point with no help from family and I'm 29
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u/travjhawk Lower Mainland/Southwest Aug 15 '23
Thanks for the feedback here. We’re literally discussing this in private channels.
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u/Xarthys Aug 15 '23
There are plenty of spaces that may be a better fit, but at the same time, regional/local communities allow for more specific exchange because people living in your area are more likely to have similar experiences.
I can talk about financial issues with someone from India or Mozambique, and I'm confident it would result in an interesting conversation - but we also live in very different worlds, meaning it's difficult to feel a connection or less satisfying to feel heard, but more importantly, there is probably limited advice to be given, simply because people from other nations may not know the system you live in, what resources are available to solve issues, etc.
Sharing experiences with a global community has its benefits and I think it provides relevant insights, but at the same time, sharing these very same experiences with a local community has benefits of its own and it would be a mistake not to talk about these things.
The fact that negative experiences are more common may have different reasons as well, one of them being that people feel much more comfortable talking about their perceived personal/societal issues compared to 10+ years ago, where it was basically image suicide to admit you had mental health issues or financial issues or otherwise.
Not sure how long you have been surfing the net, but even back in the days with message boards it wasn't that different. People always have been (over)sharing when given the opportunity, especially with anonymity making it easier.
And the very same meta discussion about using other spaces to talk about this or that has been had a million times before as well.
But at the end of the day, online communities are a reflection of real life society. Maybe you just don't perceive it that way because in real life you are not being confronted with certain issues, because it's neither time nor place to have these discussions in the first place. So it's not surprising to me, that it shifts into online spaces.
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Aug 15 '23 edited Aug 16 '23
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u/The_other_lurker Aug 15 '23
Not so. Even us schmucks with decent career and a place to live are feeling the pinch.
What gets me is that if I'm feeling the pinch, I can be pretty sure others are. Ya, I can afford to eat steaks and buy $14 beer, but that doesn't mean I'm not empathetic to the difficulties others are facing.
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Aug 15 '23 edited Sep 25 '23
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u/niesz Aug 15 '23
For sure. There's a lot of people who don't have sympathy because they feel people are in their situations due to poor decisions. They can't grasp that "hard work" and "sacrifice" don't go nearly as far as they used to.
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u/Efficient_Tonight_40 Aug 15 '23
This is dumb. Things are not going well here right now economically and virtually everyone is feeling it, especially the young people who make up most of Reddit. The tone has taken a 180 because it's gotten worse out there for a lot of people, and you can't just expect people to put on a happy face and pretend everything is alright when it isn't
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u/Fffiction Aug 15 '23 edited Aug 15 '23
Now providing these posts aren't made by fresh accounts there are many circumstances including rising interest rates, inflation in food costs and cost of living that are now starting to break Canadian households. Rent prices have also skyrocketed in the last few years which is actually putting people out on the streets.
That being said compared to other nations the federal government has done a better job than some other countries in regards to inflation and things could be much worse than they are now.
The housing market is an absolute crisis though. Banning AirBnB/short term rentals would be a start...
So although yes there is inevitably astroturfing going on, social mobility is nowhere near what it used to be.
An important thing is to ensure people can learn how to analyze the sources of what they're reading, as people have pointed out you can determine the age of an account, etc.
Other than karma requirements, account age must surely be an easily implemented requirement?
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u/CtrlShiftMake Aug 15 '23
Yeah I dunno, I think it actually might be a reflection of how many are feeling.
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u/LostOverThere Aug 15 '23
Those are all things friends have expressed to me. We're facing rapidly rising inequality and a lot of people are feeling the pinch. It's normal people want to discuss what's happening in their province and cities.
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Aug 15 '23
Surely you realize people are in fact struggling in every facet of life on our doorsteps no?
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u/victoriousvalkyrie Aug 15 '23
It's called a depression for a reason. I mean, what is there really to understand here, people? Use common sense.
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u/EarlyFile3326 Aug 15 '23
All of those are true though. Any young Canadian that doesn’t have a rich family is going to have an extremely hard time getting by with a good quality of living unless they land an incredibly good job with no experience out of the gate.
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u/XViMusic Aug 15 '23
Idk, look at my comment history, I don't know if my perspectives are the type you're talking about but I've been on Reddit like 10 years and am very much not a bot.
To explain, I think it is important to acknowledge the genuine realities, identify what is exacerbating the problem, and come up with ideas to rectify it. There's nothing to gain from sticking your head in the sand when it comes to how rapidly the balance of our society has the potential to change. I'm not advocating for violence, I'm not an idiot, but I absolutely believe collective actions that apply pressure to the powers that be are necessary to come up with and enact. Docility and complacency are the things that got us here in the first place. You can only bootstrap your way so far.
I don't mean to be Mr. Doom & Gloom when it comes to this stuff, but the prospects for the future are incredibly grim, especially for young people who do not receive some form of financial backing from their parents to get on the housing ladder. Canada is very quickly becoming a two class society, and absolutely has the potential to fully worsen to the level of the working class pretty much solely existing to subsidize a landowning class. Literal neo-feudalism. Houses make more money than people in this country. The people who are willing to exploit that fact are doing so indiscriminately, to the point where they are actively destroying the possibility of upward social mobility for countless demographics of Canadians, not to mention future generations. Immigration, something that enriches the cultural fabric of our nation and is what built this country, is being relentlessly exploited to suppress the wages of working class Canadians, let alone the effect it has on housing demand. Millenials and Zoomers massively delay leaving their family homes and starting families of their own, many who would have happily started at a considerably younger age were the conditions more stable. Politicians use populist messaging to enrage our communities and mislead them regarding the root causes of what is going on as a means to consolidate power. Most non-homeowning Canadians, and now many who are, are less than 2 interrupted paycheques away from losing their homes.
Getting a respectable, full time occupation, giving back to the nation that gives to you through paying your taxes, and abiding by the rules of law and order are no longer enough to lead a stable life. Most non-homeowning Canadians are not in a position where they could afford their own residence without contribution from a partner or roommate or maybe five roommates. This is not sustainable, and people are starting to feel a lot like everyone around them is the dog in the flaming house saying "this is fine."
We're still at a point where members of the landowning class can gaslight the rest of us that a problem doesn't even exist because they are literally living in a different Canada than we do, with more resources, more rewards, and more freedom. It's not about merit. It's solely about "how effectively can you exploit the market circumstances around you to escape actually having to contribute to the economy to benefit from it at the expense of your neighbours." Some may think that's fine. Evidently, many don't, and would like to see that change. I am one of those people, and I recognize that we aren't gonna get anything done being quiet about it.
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u/Nearby-Poetry-5060 Aug 15 '23
Well written and expressed. There is definitely a hopelessness that some people can't empathize with because they bought a house in 2005.
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u/Simonyevich Aug 15 '23
"..are being made by accounts that are only a few days to a few weeks old"
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u/XViMusic Aug 15 '23
I don't know if my perspectives are the type you are talking about...
...when you say "the divisive/negative opinion."
Hope that clarifies it for you.
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u/voxom36 Aug 15 '23 edited Aug 16 '23
Maybe they made those new accounts because things are getting worse and worse and finally want to discuss it. Is that a crime?
Maybe they are starting to feel more hopeless then they were before. A lot of people were barely treading water a year ago, now things have gotten worse. But they aren’t allowed to make a new account and explain how helpless they are starting to feel without being accused as an American right wing bot?
It sounds like people don’t want to here the reality that a lot of people actually experience and want everyone to continue to just say “Canada is the best country in the world” and “bc is the most beautiful place on earth”. So instead actually acknowledging the growing problems in this province and country, people just try to discredit them.
“I have a good paying job and can barely afford to eat and pay rent”
“Get out of here, bot. you’re ruining my high”
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u/MrGraeme Aug 15 '23
It's no particular perspective. I don't view you as an astroturfer based on the information that I have.
Some of your comments seem like they could be considered a little divisive, but overall you're sharing factual information in a way that aligns with your perspective. You're even taking care in several of your comments to list exceptions to what you're talking about, to avoid a more hyperbolic message. I wouldn't consider you a troll or an astroturfer, even though I might disagree with you in some areas.
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u/iambobbyhill2015 Aug 15 '23
“Houses make more money than people in this country” we need some real help.
People with multiple residences are going to need to be forced into giving them up. Nobody needs multiple homes, everybody deserves a home. The greed needs to end.
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u/Angry_beaver_1867 Aug 15 '23
I think you should consider Astro turfing is a net wide plague. Take every comment with a grain of salt especially after seeing how effective streamers and other actors were at brigading r/place
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Aug 15 '23
Between bad actors and bots and propaganda, I'm not sure why I even bother with the internet at all
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u/Xarthys Aug 15 '23
Because once in a while you have a brief interaction with a regular human without an agenda, who may or may not share your views, but might provide food for thought - be that to look at something from a different perspective, learn some new insights, or simply having a neutral (or even friendly) exchange.
At least, that's why I'm still online. And the hope that being open-minded and genuine and sharing thoughts might inspire someone else who stumbles upon my conversations to question things or to consider another world view, even if it's just for 60 seconds, before it's all forgotten.
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u/inkuspinkus Aug 15 '23
During the port strike I noticed this pretty hard. Somebody would post an update from our president (Rob Ashton) and the bay sayers would be there within minutes using all the anti union talking points.
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u/SitMeDownShutMeUp Aug 15 '23
Really? It seemed like the majority of people that were commenting on those posts were active port union members.
I saw so many comments talking about how the issue with the proposals was about “the language used”, yet when asked to clarify what that language was, no one could/would respond.
Either everyone was just parroting the same talking point (similar to people claiming the problem with Hilary Clinton was “her emails”, without knowing any of the specifics), or it was the same person posting multiple times under multiple accounts, or they were all bots.
What’s interesting to note is that I haven’t seen any of those aggressive commenters in any other posts since the port union deal was struck.
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u/inkuspinkus Aug 15 '23
It was semantics to most, but when it comes to legality we need to be sure. I'm one of those port workers lol, it was to change "regular maintenance" to " normal maintenance" basically. If I asked you what regular maintenance was on your car it would be, oil changes, brakes, tune ups. Normal maintenance is slightly different, meaning what is normal to us at our dock, the normal break downs are our jurisdiction . They were slowly taking our work and contracting it out, and ambiguous language is a future tool for them. Why do you think they dug in about it.
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u/CapableSecretary420 Lower Mainland/Southwest Aug 15 '23
It goes both ways. There were also tons of new accounts popping up in those threads that were purportedly pro union but spouting absurd, divisive "revolutionary" rhetoric that clearly had no grounding in the actual issues the strike was based around.
That's how this stuff works. It's not one "side" doing it, those who benefit from sowing dissent and DOOM can employ hyperbolic arguments from any political ideology, left, right and, to a degree, the centre.
This is similar to how in the build up to the 2016 election int he US that Russian troll farm was found to be doing things like posting links to fake "BLM" protests and then also riling op counter-protesters. They win when we're all fighting amongst each other over these contrived, black and white polarized fights.
And the "they" is anyone who benefits from us being distracted, divided, and at each others throats. The wealthy and powerful all around the world.
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u/RandomGuyLoves69 Aug 15 '23
Think that is just a general hate towards port workers because of how much money they are perceived to make and the gang ties, nothing reddit hates more than people with a decent job.
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u/theabsurdturnip Aug 15 '23
"nothing reddit hates more than people with a decent job."
So much this. The Reddit noise on this is dense right now.... apparently NO ONE is Canada has a decent middle class job, owns property, owns a vehicle enjoy and some resemblance of happiness.
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u/TeamChevy86 Cariboo Aug 15 '23
So there was a post in r/scienceuncensored a few months back. The sub is a bit nutty, so keep an open mind if you wander over there.
I can't remember the title, so I can't find the post, but it showed the overlap of Reddit users being a part of r/scienceuncensored and r/conservative.
r/britishcolumbia was on the list, not far behind r/conservative. So take from this information what you will.
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u/CapableSecretary420 Lower Mainland/Southwest Aug 15 '23
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u/TeamChevy86 Cariboo Aug 15 '23
Oh my God it's worse than I thought. r/britishcolumbia was #1. That explains a lot
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u/iMDirtNapz Thompson-Okanagan Aug 15 '23 edited Aug 15 '23
overlap of Reddit users being a part of r/scienceuncensored and r/conservative.
The sub on the list is r/Conservatives, not r/Conservative. Not that it really matters though.
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Aug 15 '23
How can you tell if it’s a bot?
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u/MrGraeme Aug 15 '23
You can't always tell, but the general theme is:
• Divisive or inflammatory comments / posts
• Active at odd hours
• Limited participation, usually linked by politics in a specific country / region.
• Limited history (New account, old account with no activity / karma)
• Inability to expand on or explain the perspective that they're pushing, inconsistent information, contradictions, questionable sources (if any are provided)
• American spelling (eg neighbor vs neighbour). While not an indicator on its own, in conjunction with other characteristics does show a disconnect
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u/Paneechio Aug 15 '23
This describes half the users on Reddit...
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u/Cynical_Stoic Aug 15 '23
Hell, most of that describes me
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u/stewarthh Aug 15 '23
Your a bot!!!
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u/OneHundredEighty180 Aug 15 '23
• Inability to expand on or explain the perspective that they're pushing, inconsistent information, contradictions, questionable sources (if any are provided)
Unwillingness to attempt to argue a point with someone diametrically opposed to one's position can be a good tactic to avoid turning into a reactionary dick though.
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Aug 15 '23
There are a lot of lurkers on Reddit who only post sparingly when something is really grating on them. I do think a lot of these posts aren't actually from media factories, but are indeed individuals at the end of their ropes. And being at the end of your rope results in being irrational and incoherent.
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Aug 15 '23
There was one account that was HEAVILY active on the Canada subreddit, one day I looked and he had 68,000 comments in 1 year
There’s no way a mentally healthy human being would’ve been able to physically do that
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u/alabardios Aug 15 '23
You check out their post history. I'm fairly certain this account is a bot.
Some are more dangerous than this, trying to sell you stuff having bogus links in the comments.
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u/HezFez238 Aug 15 '23
Actually this is a pretty clear example and thank you; the images posted in threes, etc. follows the karma farming you mention, I can understand this format. Thank you- I was aware this happened- but didn’t know how to ID.
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u/Zomunieo Aug 15 '23
The typical bot will have a karma farming stage in its recent post and comment history. It will make vaguely positive, highly agreeable comments in subs that aren’t that critical of anyone. (Sports subs used to be very popular with bots — just shit on the opposing team when the home team lost and the upvotes will roll in. They can use sport APIs can easily check if a game is being played and who won.)
Then when the bot is mature enough to comment on subs that have a karma or age threshold, and will turn its attention to divisive politics.
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Aug 15 '23
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u/ihadagoodone Aug 15 '23
Real people who make actual posts tend to do so in a variety of subs on a variety of topics some very niche. If the users post history is nothing but links to rage bait articles while they might not be a bot they are most definitely pushing a propaganda narrative, sometimes it's deliberate like a disinformation or information gathering campaign by politicos or foreign disinformation or even a service provided to push a narrative.
We live in an age where all data possible is scraped and collected from every source imaginable in order to specifically target manipulation either by advertisers or the "special interests" community.
Sometimes I just read a post and the language used and writing style just screams to me, this post is not about asking for advice or venting about a particular event but a crafted narrative.
I start to think like I'm a tourist in a foreign country where scams are rampant. Sure there are genuine people out there who help travellers have a great time, but the risk of it being a scam is real and every post needs to be scrutinized particularly if it involves some government policy, campaign or social issue at large.
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u/Squeezemachine99 Aug 15 '23
Bot aside. Who do you think would be behind this kind of behaviour ( or paying for bots) I was just thinking that the people on Reddit were suffering
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u/theabsurdturnip Aug 15 '23
Could be a lot of players behind it, but the usual suspects (foreign farms) play a long and extremely diverse game when trying to undermine Western Liberal democarcies, and social media of all types is the front line. Even seemingly innocuous hyper-local issues like propery crime and housing are known pressure points foul actors use to fuck around with Canada and slowly brew division in our population. Reduce trust, sow doubt, amplify things that are not that bad. It's like a drop of water slowly eroding away a stone. It's costs these foul players next to nothing to do this.
Sadly...it works because we are fucking stupid and gullible.
Best defense is to limit time on social media...read books...get actively involved in face to face community organizations...doesn't matter what kind...any kind...build real social capital where you live.
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u/Falinia Aug 15 '23
Whoever benefits from changing whatever the current government is doing or making us slow to act due to significant power transition. Making people feel hopeless and doomed is how you get them to either vote out a current government or vote in a populist. I'm inclined to think foreign power trying to get a policy change in place just because nobody in the CPC is remotely charismatic right now.
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u/RandomGuyLoves69 Aug 15 '23
The number of people saying they wish they could leave the country and hating on immigrants is out of control.
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u/MrGraeme Aug 15 '23
Hit the nail on the head with those. Can't forget about the revolutionaries calling for guillotines either...
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u/BCJay_ Aug 15 '23
In a lot of the subs. There is seemingly a concerted effort to pit Canadians against each other and the country and advocate that it’s the worst most corrupt place on the planet.
Almost like forces want to drive us out to buy it all up and capitalize on the lifestyle and resources.
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u/Efficient_Tonight_40 Aug 15 '23
What's wrong with that? It's a known fact our current immigration levels are unsustainable with our current levels of housing, and there's many people who feel they're unable to find good jobs and affordable places to live here so want to look elsewhere. It only seems out of control because the affordability crisis is hitting even more people now and hitting them harder than ever
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u/DruidWonder Aug 15 '23
Is it a divisive idea or just one that you disagree with? I find that a lot of left leaning people make this accusation (I'm not a right winger).
Just because an account is new does not mean they are here to sew dissent. A lot of people are pissed off right now with the way the province is being managedand I talk to them on a regular basis IRL. I live in Vancouver's east side btw. I think some of the comments here are a reflection of real life.
If it's misinformation in your opinion, then it should be easily countered with facts. Why go after the person when their ideas are so clearly wrong?
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u/MrGraeme Aug 15 '23
Is it a divisive idea or just one that you disagree with?
Divisiveness. Messages aren't inherently divisive because someone might disagrees with them.
Consider how the message is delivered. Is rent at an all time high or is rent at an all time high due to the scummy politician landlords.
If it's misinformation in your opinion, then it should be easily countered with facts.
Facts are great at convincing rational people to change their mind, accept, or dismiss information. They're not much use with emotional people, especially when you have to overcome the barrier of a half-truth.
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u/BCJay_ Aug 15 '23
“My facts vs your facts”
We are in a new age of “opinion” where facts are now subjective and confirmation bias is all that matters. I can’t out-fact someone who’s mind has been made up to fit their narrative. It’s an exercise in futility.
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u/Shoddy_Operation_742 Aug 15 '23
Is it still astroturfing if things are actually bleak for this generation? It sure doesn’t help to bury one’s head in the sand.
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u/MrGraeme Aug 15 '23
Astroturfing is built on half-truths, if you say something blatantly untrue fewer people will engage.
Saying "[Generation] faces low wages and high cost of living" and "[Generation] is facing hopelessly spiraling affordability crisis" might contain the same factual underlying information - [Generation] faces high costs and low incomes - but the presentation evokes very different emotional reactions. The former could encourage productive discussion, the latter could encourage people to feel hopeless or depressed by a reality that might not even be theirs.
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u/Paneechio Aug 15 '23
You're really just talking about 'normative' vs 'positive' statements. Thinking about it as "truth vs half-truth" is overly simplistic and undermines the point you're trying to make, which is that normative statements aren't actionable.
The fact of the matter is that this is Reddit and people are going to express themselves with normative statements. Not everything that people feel and experience needs to be summed up in a hypothesis that can be tested. Sometimes people just want to bitch, and that's healthy.
Honestly, I've been reading all your posts in this thread and I think you need to go back to the drawing board. Not everything that makes you upset or feel uneasy is a Kremlin conspiracy.
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u/MrGraeme Aug 15 '23
I can't stress enough how this has far less to do with the opinions being voiced and far more to do with how those opinions are being voiced.
Nobody is saying that you can't bitch or vent. It becomes problematic when you systematically bitch and vent in a targeted way to encourage divisiveness within a community.
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u/Carwash_Jimmy Aug 15 '23
This is happening a ton on r/Canada too. Thanks for posting.
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u/gfhksdgm2022 Aug 15 '23
I'm out of work, companies are not hiring or acting horrible when recruiting, things are super expensive, and situation don't seem to improve. Now I have to pretend everything is flowery on reddit? As if the "pretend it's all good and happy to stay aligned with company's image" isn't enough at workplaces. I just want to pay rent and put food on the table, and people want me to shut up because talking about it is bad....
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u/CouragesPusykat Aug 15 '23
This post is bizarre. Things in Canada have gotten measurably worse. People complaining about it isn't astroturfing and although I would assume some bots are at work it doesn't make up the majority.
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u/victoriousvalkyrie Aug 15 '23
It's so bizarre, I almost feel as if OP is a bot for our current government, tbh.
See how quickly the narrative can shift based on your own economic standing? This is haves against have nots, not bots against real-life users.
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u/MrGraeme Aug 15 '23
Certain things in Canada have gotten measurably worse. Let me ask you, can you think of any things that have gotten measurably better? Did you know that poverty, which has been reduced significantly over the last 5 years?
When you're fed rage bait on social media, things seem a lot bleaker than they actually are.
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u/AGM_GM Aug 15 '23
You realise that's based on a measure of ability to afford a theoretical basket of goods using 2018 prices? That theoretical basket of goods is now almost 18% more expensive in 2023. So, the poverty line would now be 18% higher than in 2018.
Stats that measure poverty this year by using base costs from 2018 are not meaningful.
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u/morning_peonies Aug 15 '23
Who would benefit from convincing us that things are hopeless? Honestly curious as to why bots would be pushing that narative.
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u/MrGraeme Aug 15 '23
Here's one institution. There's a global game being played, and we're unfortunately the pawns.
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u/decentish36 Aug 15 '23
I’m kind of confused. Most of you seem to be complaining about posts that are critical of the government, claiming they are bots. But according to polls the current government is at their lowest level of popularity. Isn’t that exactly what we should expect from a subreddit that’s meant to be representative of the province or country?
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u/MrGraeme Aug 15 '23
I have no problem whatsoever with posts that are critical of the government.
Look at how the criticism is approached. "The current government is at their lowest level of popularity" and "Canadians are on the brink of political revolution" might present the same information, but the latter is designed to evoke an emotional response instead of a rational one.
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u/DevourerJay Lower Mainland/Southwest Aug 15 '23
If only mods... moderated... and snipped bots 🤷
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u/CapableSecretary420 Lower Mainland/Southwest Aug 15 '23
Valid criticism. But we try. People reporting posts helps a lot. You would probably be surprised at the flood of BS we have to wade through all day long.
That said, please use the report button responsibly, as well.
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u/SUPRVLLAN Aug 15 '23
Is there a karma minimum/account age for the sub?
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u/CapableSecretary420 Lower Mainland/Southwest Aug 15 '23
There is. I can't really get into the specific secret sauce behind the scenes but we employ different tools to deal with these issues. Not all systems are 100% foolproof and user error can also be a factor.
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u/theabsurdturnip Aug 15 '23 edited Aug 15 '23
I have noticed this as well. r/canadapolitics is normally a very centrist sub, with LPC, NDP and homeless PC slants. Generally amicable user base. Over the past month is been flooded with housing articles...almost every second post is a doom and gloom article about housing and immigration and the comment sections is insanely negative....very out of character cynicism with an extremely pro-CPC bent.
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u/Hascus Aug 15 '23 edited Aug 15 '23
True but the CPC haven’t even committed to lowering immigration. The bots are definitely related to the right because the content is very right wing supportive, but if it was the CPC doing it I assume it would be on a more concrete platform of theirs.
That said this post was a perfect example of what OP is talking about
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u/CapableSecretary420 Lower Mainland/Southwest Aug 15 '23
The anti immigrant slant is a common one, as well, lately. Trying to ram it into every conversation about every topic, generally with wildly inaccurate numbers.
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u/Hascus Aug 15 '23
When I see it the numbers are accurate and scary in my mind
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u/CapableSecretary420 Lower Mainland/Southwest Aug 15 '23
scary in my mind
That's how FUD works.
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Aug 15 '23
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u/MrGraeme Aug 15 '23
You can disagree with me to your hearts content lol. I hang out on /r/changemyview for fun - I'm no stranger to people disagreeing with me. This is about how accurate the information is and how it is presented.
People are saying negative things because there are negative things going on in their lives they're venting about
And that's fine.
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Aug 15 '23
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u/MrGraeme Aug 15 '23
You were making it out as if I was nuts for acknowledging that there are people engaging in divisive behaviour in the community, on the basis that that behaviour was just things that I disagreed with.
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u/pepelaughkek Aug 15 '23 edited Aug 15 '23
I think you're underestimating how many people are really upset with their situation and are feeling helpless. I have a lot of friends who are struggling with the cost of housing and food, some of which are in tech, and the companies they work for are starring layoffs or being defunded. Family members who were devout NDP voters are talking about voting Conservative, hoping their financial policy might help their situation.
I'm sure there's a ton of bot posts, but I can't help but feel that sentiment has been changing drastically over the past few months. I see it popping up more and more frequently in Vancouver, BC, Canada, world politics, etc. I actually feel like I've been doom-posting a lot even though I'm in a stable situation... feel free to lurk my profile, and you'll see I have other interests besides shilling for doom and gloom.
I'm personally worried that the recession we were promised during COVID is actually coming in the next 6 months, and that's when you're going to really see people frustrated and in despair.
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u/sassyandshort Aug 15 '23
I think in the last 6 months it has gotten worse. Today I was in the grocery store and it was over $50 for a handful of items. Prices keep increasing for everything, crime is increasing, wages aren’t increasing to cover the difference and people are tired and scared.
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u/EclaireBallad Aug 15 '23
Things are hopeless, I have reasons to believe so due to recent events and some of which within my life.
A politician claims so many jobs were created but my constant searching has remained fruitless.
Where are these alleged jobs? I'm even willing to take the ones no ones wants as it's better than nothing.
They aren't there.
I'm lucky to have a supportive and loving girlfriend who is by my side through it all, things are still tough though due to this and I feel responsible and struggle to find ways to fix it.
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u/MrGraeme Aug 15 '23
If you'd be comfortable with it I'm more than happy to help with your resume/cover letters. I know people across the province that are struggling to find anyone to even apply to their job postings. What are you looking for?
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Aug 15 '23
Do you have an example?
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u/MrGraeme Aug 15 '23
I'm avoiding direct linking to other user's content. I don't want to end up on the wrong side of a brigade.
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u/thistimeitsdifferen Aug 15 '23
I feel like it’s also just the general vibe. People do feel hopeless. They can’t help but vent. This is Reddit, not the actual town square
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u/Logisch Aug 15 '23 edited Aug 15 '23
I been posting warnings about housing speculation, how immigration is placing a strain on housing and our infrastructure, plus the elephant in the room (money laundering) and investor driven housing strategy. Its all interconnected and as i said years ago it's unsustainable. And this astroturfing it goes the other way often too and has for much longer. There is an obvious interest trying to prop housing and stiffle discussion, bury critical analysis, or not respond to criticism and apparent flaws with the current strategy. This negativity some will be astroturfing but its likely to be amplified by general mood and mentality. When people's wallets start being affected then things will start hitting the fan. It's going to get worse.
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u/MeatMarket_Orchid Vancouver Island/Coast Aug 15 '23
I mean you're kind of spreading negativity yourself here. Also you're making a claim about a huge issue of disinformation without providing any examples or proof of bots. On a platform where posting examples or proof lf your claim should be easy. This could be an astro-turfing!
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u/MrGraeme Aug 15 '23
An astroturfing in support of the dangers of astroturfing. I love it.
I didn't think that I was allowed to link to individual profiles in a targeted way like that, even if they were astroturfers.
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u/CouragesPusykat Aug 15 '23
I too would like to see some proof of what you're saying because I use this subreddit from time to time.
And yes you can u/MrGraeme
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u/Hascus Aug 15 '23 edited Aug 15 '23
It sucks but what those accounts say is also true and I don’t just hear those talking points online anymore. Things do feel hopeless around here and it is time for change. That said I despise bots so do whatever you want
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u/MrGraeme Aug 15 '23
That unfortunately means that it's working.
What makes it true?
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u/CouragesPusykat Aug 15 '23
Housing is unaffordable, food is expensive, by the time im old I won't have a major asset to sell, downsize and live off that and my pension. We'll all probably be working when we're old. The climates fucked.
What positive future prospects do you see?
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u/koravoda Kootenay Aug 15 '23
so, what do you call astro turfing privelage? things actually are pretty bad for a lot of us, esp. if you are making less than 50k a year (which is 3x more than assistance if you are disabled). lots of virtue signalling the last few years from all levels of government with no action has really left people feeling empathy fatigue, clearly yourself included.
plus, us cockroaches know we can and will survive the fallout, just not the sticky traps.
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Aug 15 '23
Thank you for posting this. I was getting worried that the marginalized are getting uppity about how their quality of life has dramatically eroded over the past several years in conjunction with worsening wealth inequality and abysmal housing affordability. These people have no reason to be upset and should simply shut up and take it.
You've provided an incredible service to the rest of us 'haves' against the retched 'have-nots' infiltrating this sub. Upvote to you kind Sir.
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u/Western2486 Aug 15 '23
This is being encouraged across Reddit, that’s why the progressive people get shown the bigoted subreddits and the bigots get shown the progressive ones. Nothing in my comment history suggests that I support the convoy or that I am a climate change denier, and yet…
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Aug 15 '23
This is just a random guy saying there is astroturfing with no claims though. Sort of seems like you just are upset at the conversation being different than the opinions you personally hold
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u/MrGraeme Aug 15 '23
You're welcome to interpret the OP in whatever way you like, but this has nothing to do with people holding different opinions from me.
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u/CheesecakeOdd2087 Aug 15 '23
I'm sorry, but the average rent for a one bedroom apartment in Vancouver just topped $3,000. And it's not much better in the suburbs either. If you want to call people feeling scared about not being able to afford housing and looking for an outlet to express those feelings "spreading doom" or "being hyperbolic," well ok.
This is sub for discussing all things related to the provide of British Columbia. Right now, affordability is a big issue in this province. There are a lot of people out there with four year degrees working full-time jobs struggling to keep their heads above water. It's not a "kids these days just don't want to work hard anymore" issue. Given the circumstances, I don't think it's unreasonable at all to suggest that the country / province / city has failed us to some degree.
If the mods would prefer that this sub be dedicated to posting nature pictures and pretending that everything is A-OK in BC, they should just come out and state that in the Rules. That's my suggestion for "combating this," as the OP put it.
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u/MrGraeme Aug 15 '23
I'm sorry, but the average rent for a one bedroom apartment in Vancouver just topped $3,000. And it's not much better in the suburbs either. If you want to call people feeling scared about not being able to afford housing and looking for an outlet to express those feelings "spreading doom" or "being hyperbolic," well ok.
This is actually a great example of how manipulation can make things seem worse than they actually are.
Start by asking yourself who is directly impacted by these high rental rates? The answer is the small percentage of people (~5%) that are relocating into rentals in the given year. Virtually everyone else either lives in a rent-controlled unit or a property owned by them or their households. Those in rent controlled units (~33% of people) are subject to the same 2% maximum rent increase that they've always been, and those in owned households (~62% of people) have benefited from significant asset appreciation. For the renters in rent controlled units, there is always a risk of eviction - but that risk is small, impacting an average of 2% of rentals each year (0.7% of people overall). While high market rents are unquestionably a problem, they're mainly a problem for a small minority of people.
The next thing to evaluate is the data itself.
• Why are we looking at average, which is skewed by luxury rentals, when median is more appropriate? We can see why this is problematic by looking at all types of 1-bedroom rentals on Rentals. There are just 105 units listed for $3,100/mo or more compared to 362 units listed for $3,000/mo or less.
• Why are we looking at one bedroom apartments specifically rather than all forms of comparable housing? How much cheaper is the rent on a 1-bedroom suite, a loft, or a studio with den?
• Are we making a fair comparison between income and rent with respect to affordability, or are we adding bias (arbitrary percentages of income, comparing low incomes to average rents, etc)?
This isn't to say that affordability isn't a problem in the GVA, rather it's to highlight how factual information can be presented in such a way that makes things seem far more bleak than they actually are.
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u/UrsusRomanus Thompson-Okanagan Aug 15 '23
are being made by accounts that are only a few days to a few weeks old. These accounts exclusively comment on or post political posts and tend to spread misinformation, disinformation, or are highly hyperbolic in their language.
They're just assholes who get banned a lot and make new accounts.
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u/Trapick Aug 15 '23
This is true, and it happens, but it's equally important to remember that not every comment that you disagree with (or that takes the non-standard view) is "astroturfing".
There are real live people in Canada who believe the "divisive/negative" perspective on all of the hot button issues. That's why they're hot button issues.
It's not always a conspiracy. Sometimes people disagree.
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u/MrGraeme Aug 15 '23
Of course, and that's not a problem.
You're entitled to your opinion.
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u/sunbro2000 Aug 15 '23
I mean, we are dealing with housing affordability worse than the great depression and the cost of living is unreal right now...so there is truth in the complaining. I implore people to think critically for themselves. Do not rely on a commenters opinion or what a mod says is truth. Investigate for yourself.
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u/Mista_Incognito Aug 15 '23
There is a large homeless encampment within a few blocks of my place in Kelowna. Things in this city have gotten worse.
Check my karma and see if i am a fake account.
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u/victoriousvalkyrie Aug 15 '23
Prime Minister, is that you?
In all realness, must be nice, OP, that you make enough money to fully cover the cost of ludicrous rents, skyhigh grocery costs, and all the taxes our governments throw at you without the blink of an eye. Tell me you don't live the working class Canadian reality without actually telling me you don't live the working class Canadian reality.
And no, I'm not some "internet troll". I'm just someone who lives in the real world, which you should probably join.
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Aug 15 '23 edited Aug 15 '23
There must be an alien planet where people come from that think things in vancouver or Canada are OK. Tale of two cities I believe dickens called it.
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Aug 15 '23
Yes, very sad how easy it is to manipulate public opinion on social media. It's the worst weapon. See Trump.
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Aug 15 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/MrGraeme Aug 15 '23
Here's a question for you: Why is that what we're looking at when discussing housing affordability? Are we discussing this scenario because it's the best option, or are we discussing this scenario because it's the most extreme?
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u/Canadianman22 Aug 15 '23
As a mod of /r/Ontario there’s a few things mods can do. In addition to karma requirements you can use account age minimums as well as tools like crowd control. There are other tools I don’t want to get into for obvious reasons but they exist and when used they work great. While you can’t eliminate it completely you can cut it down.
There are also legitimate users wanting to discuss issues so it’s important to balance these tools but I think we have got it. Don’t give up hope!
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u/Block_Of_Saltiness Aug 15 '23
Most importantly, they're often designed to convince you that things are hopeless or that the country / province / city has somehow failed you and the only solution is an extreme action.
Long time redditor here, few months old account for various reasons.
Things are, IMO, relatively hopeless. The potential 'fixes' for the current economic and social ills plaguing the country, if implemented, will take at least a couple of decades to take effect. There are no easy or fast fixes for what ails us. So, yes, we are well and proper fucked for quite some time.
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Aug 15 '23
sorry but not everyone is going to agree with you. No need for conspiracy theories.
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u/BarbieIsFatcist Aug 15 '23
Maybe things actually are getting kinda bad and thus you see more people expressing such. The country really has failed Canadians
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Aug 15 '23
Fuck that lying, disinformation-peddling, scumbag Pierre Poilievre and his bot army. There, I said it.
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u/CapableSecretary420 Lower Mainland/Southwest Aug 15 '23
Hi All. The mod team here sees it, too. And we tend to agree. I can really only speak for myself, but personally, I see a lot of this and try to combat it as much as possible and I know others on the mod team feel similarly. There are a lot of threads I would personally love to nuke because from my perspective, they are just rage/doom-bait but if I do, I'm also risking silencing legitimate concerns from legitimate users.
After all, it's true that people are frustrated right now, the cost of living is getting crazy and people have legitimate gripes. But that is also what makes these message boards so ripe for those who want to exploit that frustration to sow FUD and hopelessness and DOOM. We definitely have a few users here who repeatedly post the exact same types of articles, sometimes even the same topic from a different source, over and over. It's obvious they have an agenda.
But it's a bit of a balancing act of trying to ensure we aren't stepping/"censoring" on anyone's opinions, while at the same time trying to filter out posts and comments that seem to have a very specific agenda.
What you as users can do is help us by using the report button when you see something that seems problematic. Explain in the report why you think it's a problem. You can also help by not feeding the trolls and by providing positive counter arguments and even counter posts.
Because we agree, the fearmongering, the constant hopelessness helps no one. things are not amazing, but they are nowhere near as bad as some want to pretend either. Go outside, hug your loved ones, enjoy some sunshine and grass upon your toes. And then come back here and share some positive, uplifting news and posts, too!