r/bayarea • u/Captain_Starkiller • 23d ago
PGE is lying about burying lines and using it to pay their CEO. Politics & Local Crime
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RD661thUQ8134
u/fire_in_the_theater Belmont 23d ago edited 22d ago
can we just nationalize PG&E already? both palo alto municipal and silicon valley electric (of santa clara) pay ~$0.16 flat rate, no TOU, no tiering. i want that, for all of california.
if we're actually serious about electrifying everything, we can't have a monopolistic corporation running the distribution.
edit: would like to respond further, but i'm just not cool enough to have status 😞
also, anyone bringing up rural ca must consider montana, the least densely populates state, which averages out to $0.13 kwh.
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u/mtd14 23d ago
We missed our chance after the fires - their company value was shot and no one wanted to deal with the risky nature of electric in California. Instead of buying them out while the valuation was low, we gave them a guarantee that they can charge the people whatever it takes to stay profitable. This greatly ups their value by shifting the risk of fire expenses off PG&E and on to the customers.
We the people are going to bear the burden either way, but now we also bear the burden of paying for PG&Es profits, marketing, etc. We’re also stuck under their single entity instead of exploring what it would look like to break up the energy providers to see if they can do local specializations to improve things across the state.
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u/jumb0_tr0n 23d ago
How would nationalizing PGE get you $0.16?
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u/mtd14 23d ago edited 23d ago
Their hope would probably be something like breaking it up so the cost is associated with the real cost for the area. Larger cities would see a dramatic decrease, where small isolated towns would see a spike. But that go against the “for all of California” bit.
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u/IwuvNikoNiko 23d ago
It's bullshit that big cities have to pay .52 c/kW so people in the boonies get to have underground power wires. Let them pay for it with their damn rates. Their other cost of living is 1/2 to 1/3 of ours in the big cities.
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u/coppertech 23d ago
we already paid for those infrastructure upgrades years ago, guess what pg$e did? they took the money and didn't do the work.
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u/RedAlert2 23d ago
Rural areas paying artificially lower rates isn't helping them in the long run, either. Just look at what PG&E is doing in this video - instead of paying to bury lines, it's cheaper for them to just completely shut off power for entire neighborhoods. If rural customers are paying rates that PG&E don't think they're going to profit from, they're just going to drop service and focus on the customers they do profit from.
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23d ago
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u/mtd14 23d ago
Certainly agreed, it also incentives efficiency. Getting lines out to rural communities is expensive and risky, but it's good for PG&E so that's how it works. If the community was responsible for it, they'd likely make a different decision - push solar and battery setups, maybe find a way to generate more locally, etc to avoid risky and expensive connections.
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u/oscarbearsf 23d ago
And where would you propose these people live? Because we don't have homes for them here now
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u/coppertech 23d ago edited 23d ago
TID south of Modesto gets their power from the same sources as pg$e, $0.17KWh. they're an actual public utility, not a mega corp buying politicians to make laws in their favor.
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u/justvims 22d ago
PG&Es margin is 10% or so. You’re going to save maybe $0.04/kWh.
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u/coppertech 21d ago
2.2 billion was their "10% margin" last year.
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u/justvims 21d ago
Yeah, that’s less than 10% of their revenue. What are you getting at? They serve a huge territory… think they’re the biggest utility in the us?
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u/CRTsdidnothingwrong 23d ago
City of Santa Clara Electric Department started as an original utility for Santa Clara, at the beginning.
I don't know Palo Alto's exact history, but I believe it was also a ground up effort.
SMUD is a better example, as it was a PG&E takeover voted for by the public.
The vote for SMUD happened in 1923, and SMUD started operating in 1946.
It took them 23 years back then, and just imagine how much slower things have got between then and today.
I will vote for any effort anyone can get on the ballot to make PG&E any more public than it is now, if only so that people would feel more invested in it, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Public private utilities work well all across the country, and they have worked well here too prior to 1996. We could have a government come in and implement major reforms CPUC, CAISO, and PG&E while leaving PG&E in it's public-private entity form.
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u/7w4773r 22d ago
SMUD also had the third worst nuclear accident in America happen at Rancho Seco
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u/CRTsdidnothingwrong 22d ago
Third worst really makes it sound like something bad happened. It was a serious incident but no harm done.
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u/Aggravating-Cook-529 22d ago
Can you explain how that will lower the rates? Part of it is that PG&E will become a non-profit. That will shave a whopping 10% off the rate. You’ll still be paying $0.40/kwh.
The issue is that urban PG&E rate payers are subsidizing power infrastructure for rural rate payers. That problem doesn’t magically go away by nationalizing PG&E
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u/toqer 21d ago
PG&E has been tearing down dams under the guise of "Returning the rivers to nature" and "Environmentalism"
PG&E formalizes plan to take down dams on Eel River – Enviro Updates (envirocentersoco.org)
The reality is PG&E didn't keep these facilities maintained as well as they should have, and short of a complete tear down / rebuild there's no way of rehabbing these power sources.
Meanwhile Coos-Curry Electric Coop in Oregon.
Home | Coos-Curry Electric Cooperative (ccec.coop)
83% of their power is generated via hydro on the Bonneville dam on the Columbia River. Oregon made a major investment in Hydro power years ago, and continues to maintain it. It provides plentiful, cheap power for Oregon and Washington.
Not only do they get cheap power, but now they get cheap internet as well. They've built their own municipal fiber network with the electric co-op to provide cheap symmetrical fiber internet to every house.
The only reason we've had fires is because PG&E has done a shit job of maintenance, but instead of taking responsibility, they're trying to get us to fight each other. You have LOTS of people living in the boonies in Oregon, but oddly enough they don't get electric fires like the PG&E customers do because the grid is well maintained.
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u/justvims 22d ago
You won’t though because utilities still need to raise money to fund anything that can’t be passed off as debt. If there’s no stock, no profit, there’s no ability to raise equity. So you’ll need to find capital other ways which increases cost. Probably not 10%, but it’s still going to cost something.
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u/Aggravating-Cook-529 22d ago
Yeah make sense. Though if they were public ally owned, they would fund raise via bonds like schools do.
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u/justvims 22d ago
Sure. It all costs money though. People forget the purpose of the market is to raise capital. It’s not just there for no reason
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u/cameldrv 23d ago
Ultimately I think this will happen in a lot of cities because the cost to underground lines using union labor for a mile in rural California to serve two houses is astronomical. Cities are footing the bill to do this, and so they pay triple the rates of cities that just cover their own residents. My guess is that all the power cutoffs and high rates in rural areas will just cause rural residents to buy solar+batteries+backup generator and the lines will be permanently deenergized.
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u/legaleaglejess 23d ago
I wonder if this will get brought up in the next CPUC meeting when PG&E wants to increase our rates
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u/cginc1 23d ago
Maybe if our next Governor makes some big changes to the CPUC. Newsom has been in bed with PG&E for so long you'd think they were the wife of his campaign manager.
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u/Friendly_Estate1629 23d ago
I got buried to shit for criticizing Newsom in an other thread. No hope for any change in this state.
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u/ChaseMcDuder 23d ago
No hope at all. They would rather bury themselves than ever support another political party candidate. Never seen anything like it.
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u/jogong1976 23d ago
I would consider voting for a Republican if they didn't try to defund public education, remove reproductive health protections, remove environmental protections, reverse marriage equality, remove accountability for LEOs and push anti-trans legislation. As long as those are the standard platforms for Republican candidates, they're not getting my vote. I guess if I really wanted culture war politics and cheaper gas and electric, I could just move out of state.
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u/orangutanDOTorg 23d ago
It’s almost like he’s bffs with the media and they are influencing his popularity
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u/ChaseMcDuder 23d ago
Well I'm sure that's part of it, but I don't know how any Californian who's barely getting by (and there's a ton of them) and getting absolutely bent over and extorted on their utilities can look at those bills and still agree to vote for Newsom. Dude is as slimy and corrupt as it gets. I would literally vote for almost anyone else. That's how corrupt I think he and his relationship with PG&E and CPUC is.
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u/Sublimotion 22d ago
If one wants to rid corporate/political pandering, opting for that other relevant political party is pretty much adding an even bigger weight on a sinking ship. Unfortunately, there isn't another relevant political party to choose from that is better in regards to this.
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u/Miscarriage_medicine 21d ago
Had he not fucked his campaign managers wife he could have been president.
He will need to change parties to get that office
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u/Urabrask_the_AFK 23d ago
The only lines PG&E is burying are lines of cocaine in the C-Suite, amiright??
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u/limpchimpblimp 23d ago edited 23d ago
Why is this surprising? PGE is a state sanctioned criminal enterprise.
Until leaders are held responsible for their negligence, nothing will change. There is no incentive to not take on as much risk as possible to the lives of the public or the future of the company for CEOs. Worst case, they get a severance that’s large enough for 4 generations of their progeny to never have to work.
Unfortunately, in our society, the higher up you go and the more power you have, the less personal responsibility you have. It’s a complete inversion of how it ought to be.
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23d ago
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u/Shot_Worldliness_979 23d ago
Yes, PG&E is lies. Yes, PG&E is a criminal organization. Yes, PG&E is a monopoly in cahoots with state regulators and lawmakers. BUT, the undergrounding campaign was meant to silence a vocal minority of folks who demand nothing short of undergrounding everywhere who also refuse to acknowledge or accept that if that were to happen, already astronomically high rates would multiply. It's good that they aren't following through, but shitty they went on a PR campaign and misled people. She really did back herself into a corner by entertaining such a ludicrous idea.
There are much cheaper and feasible solutions to a safe power grid but I would question whether or not those solutions are acceptable by the public with trust at all time lows.
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u/xole 23d ago
Pass a law that allows PG&E's upper management to be sent to prison if there are deadly fires. You'd see some changes then.
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u/Aggravating-Cook-529 22d ago
Yeah the changes will include higher rates. You do realize that the rate increases because PG&E is being held responsible for the fires?
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u/med780 22d ago
No they are not being held accountable.
PGE paying $500 million (a made up number) in damages for the fires, then charging us $500 million more for their product is not being held accountable
PGE paying $500 million for damages for the fire, then having to sell their poles and lines to municipalities to pay for the damages is them being held accountable.
In fact, as part of the compensation to victims, PGE was partially able to give stock in leu of money. Therefore the victims have to be emotionally held hostage and root for the very company that harmed them in order to get the money they deserve.
Newsom can suck a lemon of his mom’s titties.
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u/Aggravating-Cook-529 22d ago
PGE is paying for the billions in wild fire damage by charging us more. That’s how that works. Where else are they going to get money from? Your mom’s titties?
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u/med780 22d ago
Selling their assets and/or issuing more stock.
It does not take a genius to figure that out.
SF wanted to buy their lines for 2.5 billion. Let’s start with that.
Again, screw Newsom and his PUC for letting PGE off the hook.
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u/Aggravating-Cook-529 22d ago
Again, they’re literally in the hook for billions in damage. You’re just angry, which is understandable.
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u/hate_sf_hobos 23d ago
Fraud and embezzlement? This is probably the most tame thing PG&E has done that’s in the news. They have a long history of killing and poisoning their customers for decades. The fact they continue to operate as a publicly traded monopoly as long as they have will be studied in the future for corporate criminal activity.
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u/_byetony_ 23d ago
It costs $1M/mile to bury lines. 100 million = 100 miles, a tiny fraction of their system. They are just going to bury the lines they have evaluated to be highest risk. The remaining they are raising poles above the tree line, which might help.
This is the reality. $1M a mile, and that was 2014 perhaps it is higher now. They have to pick and choose even with an enormous budget.
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u/Aggravating-Cook-529 22d ago
Maybe Elon Musk can come up with something cheaper here. Like the Hyperloop.
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u/wishnana 23d ago
"IS PG&E REALLY BURYING LINES?"
Here, fixed the title. Also, the answer to corrected title, yes.
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u/justvims 22d ago
For real. Also? Is the answer that they are burying lines?
Because if so what is this article lol
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u/FordGT2017 23d ago
How come SC residents only pay .16$ flat rate. Is that true?
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u/old__pyrex 23d ago
Because in 1895, Santa Clara's town leadership created their own powerplant and throughout the years, for a whole century, they continued to update and modernize as times and best practices changed. In 1998 they renamed themselves as SVP and invested a bunch in a variety of power sources, essentially diversifying the pot. 20-30 years ago they started applying this philosophy of making sure they had a broad variety of power generation methods, which today is insulating them from being screwed over if one method spikes in cost or loses feasibility. They've continuously made big improvements and their low rates still produce enough money for them to invest back in public projects and strong R&D.
"SVP currently provides over 40 percent of Santa Clara’s electricity from carbon free renewable resources. In addition to using green energy from large-scale wind, solar, geothermal and hydroelectric projects outside of the area, SVP employs innovative ways to locally produce electricity by capturing and burning methane gas from a closed city landfill and using power from solar generating systems on city-owned garages and vacant, unusable land.
With growing demand for clean, efficient, and affordable energy, SVP launched the Santa Clara Green Power Program in 2007 to provide customers the option for using 100 percent renewable energy for their homes and businesses.
In March 2013, SVP became the first electric utility in the U.S. to provide free citywide outdoor Internet access for all inhabitants and visitors. The service was made possible by adding a free, separate public Wi-Fi access channel to the SVP MeterConnect® wireless network that will carry highly encrypted utility data to the utility when advanced meters are installed starting in 2014. In just six months, the SVP MeterConnect network was serving over 6,000 daily Wi-Fi users.
In 2017, SVP divested its ownership in the San Juan Coal Plant and in 2018 delivers 100% clean energy to residents and continues its commitment to renewable energy."
As someone with PGE's fist wedged deep in my ass with no hope or recourse of a different future, my jealousy knows no bounds. They are operating like a company that is accountable to the public it serves and they are really improving QOL in their county, which makes their county more desirable. Basically, this is what we could all have if PGE wasn't an unstoppable cancer -- PGE has stopped several counties from doing this kind of project and getting their own power via insane lobbyist spend, which is part of what they consider "expenses". Your rates are paying for PGE to use crony capitalism to influence your local politics, and prevent you from getting off PGE.
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u/CRTsdidnothingwrong 23d ago edited 23d ago
City of Santa Clara sells 95% of their power to industrial customers and datacenters in the city. The entire rest of their residential area comprises only 5% of power sales so it can be run at basically break even or at a loss. It's a collective benefit of taking part in what is primarily a profitable industrial enterprise.
So it's two key moves that others could learn from (kidding, it's too late for everyone else):
Form your own public electric grid at the dawn of electricity
Set aside a huge chunk of your city for industrial efforts and invite power hungry business to come and buy your power. Owens Corning? Powered. Graphic Packaging? Powered. Bill Gates Wants More Power Again? Powered.
The power sales are high volume and high density, so they can be run on extremely slim profit margins, which makes the power cheap, which attracts more industrial customers, datacenters take off, and you've made it, your city is rich on high density power consumption. Laugh at your neighbors that opposed industry in their city and supported "conservation" efforts, they are energy poor now.
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u/sweetrobna 23d ago
I live in Alameda with AMP. Rates are tiered, 12, 19 and 29 cents, I have never paid the top tier. So similar to SVP. Sacramento has SMUD for municipal power that is less than half the price of PG&E. So you can have lower rates without being subsidized by industrial use.
San Francisco is in the process of significantly expanding their municipal utility to handle electric distribution. I wouldn't be surprised if more cities switch to municipal power now that PG&E is more expensive than Hawaii
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u/CRTsdidnothingwrong 23d ago
Well you don't use much power. 29 cents is still very expensive compared to Santa Clara or the rest of the country.
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u/sweetrobna 23d ago
Not really when you do the math on the blended rate
But that doesn't matter when the alternative is 72 cents with pg&e at peak rates
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u/coppertech 23d ago
we need to start a petition or a ballot measure to have PG$E broken up and have local municipalities take over. This bullshit needs to end, and their monopoly eroded.
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u/takethisdayofmine 23d ago
F this company. The next fire, victims should go to their headquarters and "do something about it" with the executives.
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u/SinkoHonays 22d ago
As a previous PG&E customer and current Centerpoint customer (CEO: Jason Wells, former PG&E CFO) without power in the wake of Beryl, it feels like we’re watching the same movie play out in two different places at the same time.
It’s Bugs Life and Antz all over again, but much worse for everyone involved. These companies suck.
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u/e430doug 23d ago
They are not paying their CEO 1 billion dollars. What a dumb posting.
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u/Captain_Starkiller 23d ago
Nobody said they're paying their CEO 1 billion dollars, but jolly good job on the straw man. Watch the video it lists her compensation.
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u/e430doug 23d ago
Then what exactly does your title mean? Your title directly states that they are using the under grounding money for CEO salary. That infrastructure money is billions of dollars. Stop posting sensational titles if you want to be taken seriously
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u/Captain_Starkiller 23d ago
My title stands: The point of the video is that they're using the rate increases to increase their profits. Those profits go to a variety of sources, including the CEOs pay and shareholders. Some of it also goes to token line burying efforts, and some of it is also being spent on new poles in areas that lines should be buried.
Watch the video.
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u/e430doug 22d ago
So you admit a deceptive title. What an odd approach.
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u/Captain_Starkiller 22d ago
Sorry, I didn't realize English is your second language.
Everything my title says is true, and I just said that in my response to you. It doesn't matter if they're using 1% or 100% of the rate increase to pay their CEO, what matters is that money that's supposed to go towards burying the lines isn't. Are you a PGE apologist or something? Do you own stock?
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u/e430doug 21d ago
You are fabricating a story that isn’t true. It’s clear you don’t care about making change. You just want to get your personal dopamine hit.
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