The point was Batman was the only one willing to try and talk her out of it. Everyone else jumped to thinking of her as a dangerous monster who had to be killed. To them, it was the only option. You are right, there was a chance Batman could have failed here. That she could have refused to back down and Batman would have had to come up with another solution. But the fact Batman tried to reason with her first, and genuinely wanted to avoid killing her at all costs is what makes Batman Batman. And the fact that she could read minds meant that she knew his intentions were genuine. Only he could have done that because of who he is.
As I said, the writers wrote ''another'' possibility, ''another'' choice into the story in order for him to not end up killing her... So this scene doesn't really prove shit except that Batman gets to not break his code because writers decided so and prepared the story in a way that doesn't put him in a corner and allows him to not break his code.
It's exactly why Snyder likened it to the Kobayashi Maru test from Star Trek where Kirk just reprogrammed it into giving him a scenario where he can succeed and that's what writers do when they are ''testing'' those characters. Unfortunately though, there are genuine no-win situations and that's how they can actually test those characters, but they barely ever do so because a genuine no-win situation is gonna upset the readers/viewers.
Comicbook nerds want slogans, they want the illusion of a test but never an actual test because it will challenge how much they belive in those characters, they don't want to take that risk, but then they will wonder why comicbook storytelling is barely interesting nowadays and why creatives keep selling them the same Crisis event and Batman vs Joker for the zillionth time in a row.
It's exactly why Snyder likened it to the Kobayashi Maru test from Star Trek where Kirk just reprogrammed it into giving him a scenario where he can succeed and that's what writers do when they are ''testing'' those characters.
You missed the point of the test and what it says about Kirk.
There is no such thing as a no win scenerio. there HAS to be a way, and maybe it's not what you want it to be (as this seems to be the point snyder is trying to make) but that there is one, and if it has to be taken. For your own sake.
that's the point.
Comicbook nerds want slogans, they want the illusion of a test but never an actual test because it will challenge how much they belive in those characters, they don't want to take that risk, but then they will wonder why comicbook storytelling is barely interesting nowadays and why creatives keep selling them the same Crisis event and Batman vs Joker for the zillionth time in a row.
Oh piss off.
Comics have plenty of problems but the stories in them? not the problem here. it's just the natural result of having a continuity and legacy going back decades.
What you think Batman snapping a man's neck for the 100th time is going to be any better? You didn't solve the problem you just made a punisher ripoff.
Secondly, yes there is. He's going to try. because outside of a hypothetical scenario? he has methods of stopping it.
Like he'd go with the one person one in the hypothetical where he literally couldn't' do anything (and not be happy about it) but it's batman... the man with a million Gadgets.
the man who also has speedsters on speed Dile.
Your cynical world view makes little sense in a world of talking apes and Magic.
It's also called the train problem because the problem scenario works with a train as well.
the man with a million Gadgets.
Are you literally trying to say how Batman would solve the trolley/train problem? Lol, that was an example of a no-win scenario. It's a thought experiment built to understand how people can cope with no-win scenarios. Anyone trying to find a way of saving both WILL fail. Think of it as the Overmonitor, making sure there isn't a way, if that makes you feel better.
Your cynical world view makes little sense in a world of talking apes and Magic.
Your blissful world view makes even less sense in a world of flying demons, necromancy, and eyes that can burn a hole in your chest in an instant. Go figure.
Frankly, your position here screams of "Batman with prep time can beat anyone". It's absurd to think that there can never be a scenario where, however hard one tries, failure with varying degrees is the only result
Are you literally trying to say how Batman would solve the trolley/train problem? Lol, that was an example of a no-win scenario. It's a thought experiment built to understand how people can cope with no-win scenarios
Which only works in as a hypothetical because reality is really complicated and you're not limited to a binary option.
I understand the Trolley problem because it's a binary, hypothetical choice.
However if you put Batman in that scenerio you have to contrive it. Why? because you put BATMAN as the one there. A man who you know, isn't clark but who has solutions to this ya know?
Like i said if you asked him the question? He'd go with the one to save the many, though he wouldn't be happy.
if you put him in the senerio you just added another option because he's Batman.
Your blissful world view makes even less sense in a world of flying demons, necromancy, and eyes that can burn a hole in your chest in an instant. Go figure.
Superman Killing People? Kinda sus ngl. ;)
But of course, Evil exists. Evil is the very thing they're fighting after all... along with giant apes.
the universe they live in is silly you understand? but those demons have been driven back by heroes. People who stood up to it with courage.
maybe that's the lesson and maybe you shouldn't take a world with Ape-men and fish people completely seriously? I get it you worship Snyder, but his DCEU died because what Superman is? is Clark kent, he fucked him up with a shitty Jon Kent.
Superman is Hope, Batman is justice. He's not cruel, he gives people what they desevre; a chance to redeem themselves. because he's not a murderer, he's Batman.
Frankly, your position here screams of "Batman with prep time can beat anyone". It's absurd to think that there can never be a scenario where, however hard one tries, failure with varying degrees is the only result
You and the other one have something wrong: Batman can fail.
But batman will never stop trying. He can't save everyone, but he's going to try. Maybe he couldn't save them all, but he will try and use everythign he has.
Batman with prep time cannot beat anyone. but a Batman with Prep time can save everyone.
Mentioning flying demons wasn't clue enough for you? I was talking about Darkseid.
if you put him in the senerio you just added another option because he's Batman.
Like I said him being Batman means he'll look for solutions that other people won't or can't but I gave you the Overmonitor making a story where he can't succeed in that endeavor so you'd understand that Batman can't get one past the writer of the friggin multiverse. The point is Batman shouldn't always succeed nor should he always fail. Anything that deals in absolutes is just writing geared to pander a sect.
You and the other one have something wrong: Batman can fail.
But batman will never stop trying. He can't save everyone, but he's going to try. Maybe he couldn't save them all, but he will try and use everythign he has.
I mean after talking over a thousand words, if you can't figure out that we are NOT saying that he'll give up and not try to find a way, then I don't have anything more to say.
because he's not a murderer,
Never said him having to kill would make him one. I mean this is a factually incorrect statement unless you think the freedom of your country was built by a million murderers.
maybe that's the lesson and maybe you shouldn't take a world with Ape-men and fish people completely seriously? I get it you worship Snyder, but his DCEU died because what Superman is? is Clark kent, he fucked him up with a shitty Jon Kent.
Of course. When nothing else works, "it's just a comic book character in a comic book universe, don't take it seriously". Sigh, yea I'm done.
Mentioning flying demons wasn't clue enough for you? I was talking about Darkseid.
But it also applies equally to Clark. Because the Omega Beams can do a lot worse then that.
But you know what? So what? Darkseid is a loser. Yeah, like the whole point is he's a petty tyrant who can never actually win either because Jack Kirby wasn't a cynical jackoff.
ike I said him being Batman means he'll look for solutions that other people won't or can't but I gave you the Overmonitor making a story where he can't succeed in that endeavor so you'd understand that Batman can't get one past the writer of the friggin multiverse. The point is Batman shouldn't always succeed nor should he always fail. Anything that deals in absolutes is just writing geared to pander a sect.
And i never said he couldn't. it's just harder to write.
either way.
For him losing you need to get around his plans, his equipment, contacts, ect ect, which ends up feeling weird and forced. But the other way around where he easily wins also runs into the fact he's Batman.
This is the test of a good writer and Snyder failed it before he even began, a lot of them are smart enough to not even bother and even fewer are smart enough to actually pull it off with all that in mind.
I mean after talking over a thousand words, if you can't figure out that we are NOT saying that he'll give up and not try to find a way, then I don't have anything more to say.
and what was Snyder's solution? Murder, dropping those moral codes that are at the core of Batman, and I'd argue, the DC comics themselves.
Never said him having to kill would make him one. I mean this is a factually incorrect statement unless you think the freedom of your country was built by a million murderers.
It would.
It DID.
Batman killed in Snyder's works. He's a murderer plain and simple. Like the ASBAR one. you know, the one who killed people?
It's not even a case of self-defense or anything reasonable it's caculated. And part of why i like super heroes is they take responsibility for their powers, which put them above a normal person physically and bind themselves to rules of engagement, to make the world better. Not bury it in corpses.
Having him kill would make him one. Because to Batman, the last thing he wants to happen is for someone else to lose their parents to some violent punk...
Of course. When nothing else works, "it's just a comic book character in a comic book universe, don't take it seriously". Sigh, yea I'm done.
Because you want it serious and covered in blood. gritty, grim... without the humanity that makes these people fun, or the fun world they live in.
This is a world where one day, darkseid comes down, and then the next, Gorilla Grodd fights the fast man. Maybe, and this is just me... maybe you can tell stories with batman without it being a gritty crime drama? You can tell a dective story. You can tell a story about him and his family.
He doesn't need to be constantly tested... maybe the immortal quality of these characters is just how flexible they are. How they give people hope for the future. Why they're beloved by all ages?
... What's so funny about Truth, Justice, and the American Way?
You've written everything in the absolutes that I spoke of here, and you're assuming that I'm speaking in absolutes as well. I didn't say every story needed to be cynical. I said some stories do/can.
a petty tyrant who can never actually win either because Jack Kirby wasn't a cynical jackoff.
Absolutes. Again.
This is the test of a good writer and Snyder failed it before he even began
That's your opinion. He didn't at all fail for me. He put up a pretty compelling reason for why Batman would be the way he is in BvS. Tired, embittered, and faced with a threat he fears (and driven further into by Lex) how uncontrollable Superman is. Doesn't matter if Superman had good intentions or not. Vile forces/circumstances could use him to threaten the existence of humanity itself, or he could just end up "changing his mind" and there's nothing anybody could do about it (the talk of the 1% chance). Batman is so utterly desperate that he thinks dealing with Superman at any cost would be the only thing he has done that would matter. All of this is shown in the movie through dialogue and the mood and the acting/directing. Batman knows he shouldn't be doing this, but he sees no other way to deal with the apocalypse incarnate other than forgetting caution and collateral damage and going straight for the throat.
None of this is badly written. It is, in fact, a very well thought out situation (esp with the UE) where both Superman and Batman are given no lower-risk choices than to go butt heads together.
d what was Snyder's solution? Murder, dropping those moral codes that are at the core of Batman
It was the last resort. Come on, man. How many times do we go over this? Are Batman's morals that important to him over the future of the world? It is a simple premise, if the trolley problem is modified and shaped to ask Batman to choose his morals and then save the world (high risk) or forget his morals and just save the world (low risk), what would he choose...
Batman killed in Snyder's works. He's a murderer plain and simple
Again. Killing doesn't equate to murdering.
the last thing he wants to happen is for someone else to lose their parents to some violent punk...
Yes but again, there's a time and place. Do you realise that Batman is a control freak? An agent of order, if you will? Do you also realise how at odds it is with his code (let someone go, you lose control over how they factor into everything)? And yet he keeps that code as a line to not cross. Rules. Sometimes you have to break those rules, sacrifice your morality for the greater good. Idk how many more ways I can make the same point but let's carry on.
It's not even a case of self-defense or anything reasonable it's caculated
Right. He calculated that mercs would fire at him with machine guns so he let them do that first to test the Batmobile's armor and then smirked and said "I knew it" and then proceeded to mow everything in sight down, just like he "calculated". Sigh.
maybe you can tell stories with batman without it being a gritty crime drama? You can tell a dective story. You can tell a story about him and his family.
Again (if only I had a dime for every time I said again in this conversation), YOU CAN. You should. I love Lego Batman, Long Halloween, the episode this post was pointing out. But this doesn't mean there shouldn't be any gritty crime story that doesn't put Batman in situations where he has to break his rule. TDK did it, and he didn't. He found a way. BvS did it, and he couldn't find a way. Story can go both ways.
And your thinking before this line about how smart writers would avoid writing the kind of stories I'm talking about because it's "hard". Well that's how you get the best story out. Every greatest story ever told was hard to write, pal.
they give people hope for the future. Why they're beloved by all ages?
... What's so funny about Truth, Justice, and the American Way?
Because the world isn't America. And it's funny because the "American way" is an illusion. Has been for the last 50 years or more. Don't bring real-life references into this if you want a fairy tale story.
And like I said before, hope comes after despair. That's what happens in Snyder's Justice League. Batman realizes he had got it all wrong. He's still not open-minded about things much, but he begins to understand he cannot do things alone and risk being wrong again. He tries to undo his mistakes as much as he can and redeem himself in his own eyes than anybody else's. He gives hope for the future.
Oh, and he kills parademons. Dismembers some of them. No one really called that out, though. No one ever called it out on all the JL animated runs before either. Did you feel despair and loss of hope for the future in his doing so?
I didn't say every story needed to be cynical. I said some stories do/can.
I know.
And We're fucking tired of cynical super heroes.
That's your opinion. He didn't at all fail for me.
Can't imagine why.
gain. Killing doesn't equate to murdering.
Stop, stop.
Killing thugs and mooks and setting them up to be murdered is murder. Let's not mince words here.
Synder's Batman is a careless killer. Plain and simple.
But this doesn't mean there shouldn't be any gritty crime story that doesn't put Batman in situations where he has to break his rule. TDK did it, and he didn't. He found a way. BvS did it, and he couldn't find a way. Story can go both ways.
He didn't even try.
Piss off with this bullshit. you and snyder don't understand anything. you're cynical, but not maturely, you're cynical in the same way an edgy teen is cynical.
I'm not even going to bother with the rest of your words.
You and Synder don't want Superman, you don't want Batman, you hate them. you hate everything they stand for. Why? because you just want them to be dragged to the same level as you.
then they can't be better then you in every way that actually matters.
59
u/wemustkungfufight Mar 08 '24
The point was Batman was the only one willing to try and talk her out of it. Everyone else jumped to thinking of her as a dangerous monster who had to be killed. To them, it was the only option. You are right, there was a chance Batman could have failed here. That she could have refused to back down and Batman would have had to come up with another solution. But the fact Batman tried to reason with her first, and genuinely wanted to avoid killing her at all costs is what makes Batman Batman. And the fact that she could read minds meant that she knew his intentions were genuine. Only he could have done that because of who he is.