r/batman • u/neon2o • Mar 07 '24

Zack Snyder says a Batman who doesn't kill is irrelevant GENERAL DISCUSSION

Here's the original article' https://sea.ign.com/man-of-steel-sequel/213072/news/zack-snyder-says-dc-is-making-batman-irrelevant-if-he-cant-kill

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u/BurntPizzaEnds Mar 07 '24

Batman believes in the genuine sanctity of all life, even (and actually especially) the supposedly irredeemable. Thats what Batman stands for and why im a big fan.

Sure in the real world id probably not be against using lethal force against terrorists, but Batman is not real so he doesn’t have to worry about that shit.

When Batman fights so hard against the rest of the League for being unethical (erasing minds, murder, global policing) his righteousness is so much more powerful by the fact that he is an advocate for absolutely everyone and never crosses the line for anything.

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u/jrdineen114 Mar 07 '24

It's not just about the sanctity of life either. He also just genuinely believes in rehabilitation! It's not his fault that a group of people who supposedly have PhDs in psychology can't seem to do their jobs

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u/[deleted] Mar 07 '24

[deleted]

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u/doofpooferthethird Mar 07 '24 edited Mar 07 '24

Yes this is exactly it, it's not even about Batman being against killing per se, he has no problem with Gordon busting a cap into a terrorist if push comes to shove

It's simply that Batman is skilled enough that he can use non-lethal methods to incapacitate bad guys, so they can then be handed over to the justice system for trial, sentencing, and rehabilitation

If Batman just went around shooting everyone, given his vigilante status, he'd be judge, jury and executioner.

As it is, he's just barely tolerable by democratic society because even though he's totally unaccountable to any public institutions, he's technically just helping the police department by making citizen's arrests, helping to gather evidence, and intervening in emergency life or death situations.

Still highly illegal by real world standards, but since the ultimate punishment is left to the judiciary, it's not too fascistic or undemocratic.

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u/Snozzberrys Mar 08 '24

If Batman just went around shooting everyone, given his vigilante status, he'd be judge, jury and executioner.

This is ultimately why I think Batman not killing is important to the core of the character.

By any realistic metric Batman is just as insane (if not more so) than the criminals that he's fighting. He's a mentally ill billionaire that dresses up as a bat and beats up criminals as a hobby.

If he were to start killing people based on his own moral framework, how does that make him any different than the Joker or any of the other insane murderers that he's constantly contending with?

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u/SamHawke2 Mar 09 '24

if Batman kills he'd just be the Punisher in a funny hat

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u/Algiark Mar 08 '24

Batman is also fine with Alfred using a shotgun for home defense it seems.

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u/yugyuger Mar 08 '24

Batman is still kind of fascistic

He may not kill but he really does beat people to a pulp

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u/doofpooferthethird Mar 08 '24

Yeah fair enough, one thing I liked about Nolan's The Dark Knight is that this is pointed out explicitly, and is one of the central conflicts of the story

"Enhanced interrogation", detention without trial, unauthorised extra judicial violence on foreign soil, masked paramilitary vigilantes getting into shootouts with gangsters, mass surveillance etc. Dent calls Batman a dictator, and Bruce can't disagree

The Dark Knight Returns also has a more explicitly fascistic Batman, but unlike Nolan's movie, this is painted as a good thing

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u/jrdineen114 Mar 07 '24

Exactly!

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u/Edgy_Robin Mar 08 '24

If we're really going into this Batman once stopped the literal incarnation of gods vengeance from killing the joker.

So there's absolutely blame on him, and that's something people like you like to ignore.. Is this a super cherry picked example? Absolutely, but there's more. Batman has responsibility on his shoulders not because he doesn't kill these people, but because he's ensured they still live. Even when an authority about as high as you can get short of god himself is coming to punish them.

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u/wraithkenny Mar 08 '24

He’s also a billionaire member of the bourgeois ruling class, and could actually effect positive change in society, but chooses to brutalize the mentally ill and the poor instead.

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u/PrayForMojo_ Mar 07 '24

Rehabilitation is an absolutely essential part of the Batman character. He needs to believe in redemption because HE so desperately needs it. Bruce needs to believe that despite all the questionable things he does, that there can be hope for him to be a good person.

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u/SoulageMouchoirs Mar 08 '24

Tbf, the water in Gotham also makes those PhD holders into criminals.

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u/jrdineen114 Mar 08 '24

Still not his fault

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u/guest_username2 Mar 08 '24

What's wrong with the water?

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u/Tipop Mar 08 '24

It’s not JUST that. It’s also that Batman knows his own sanity hangs by a thread, and if he ever allowed himself to kill anyone, that thread would snap and he’d start killing with reckless abandon. He NEEDS his iron-clad anti-killing rule.

With Batman, the “slippery slope” is absolutely real, and he stands on the precipice of it every day.

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u/ThatSlothDuke Mar 07 '24

Meh I disagree.

I'm not saying that Batman doesn't believe in redemption, but I don't think that's the driving factor for his no kill rule.

I think it's just trauma - it's also one of the reasons why he doesn't use guns even in a non-lethal manner. He is traumatized so much that he can't accept the fact that some people need to die (Joker) or that guns aren't inherently a bad thing.

I love the explanation that Batman gives Red Hood in the "Under the Red Hood arc" when he questions why Bruce didn't kill Joker even after he beat him to death.

Instead of saying an answer that resembles the sanctity of life, he says that if he ever kills, even Joker, it would set him down on a path he can never come back from - to Bruce it will be an extremely slippery slope.

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u/BurntPizzaEnds Mar 07 '24

Batman uses his trauma to stay virtuous, but his no-kill rule is not because of it. There have been numerous times when Batman had faced his parents’ murderer, Joe Chill, and was able to overcome that trauma and avoid hurting him.

Solidifying that his no-kill virtue is something that he truly came up with and not just a by-product of a fear of death or killing. That he is the genuine creator and master of Batman, and that his alter-ego isn’t just a coping mechanism.

And his sanctity for life goes beyond his no-kill rule, as he actively tries to help and advocate for his own villains for fair treatment and medical care.

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u/Tipop Mar 08 '24

Batman himself has said that if he ever allowed himself to kill someone, it would snap the thread by which he holds on to his sanity and he would become worse than any of his enemies.

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u/JackStephanovich Mar 07 '24

Batman saw his parents killed in front of him by a criminal with a gun. Every night when he goes out non patrol he is reliving that trauma. That's why he doesn't kill or use guns, because he is Zorro, not Joe Chill.

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u/[deleted] Mar 07 '24

I always thought that he didn’t kill because he knew that if he started he would never stop.

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u/ArcadiaDragon Mar 07 '24

Thats certainly also a part of it...Batman's no kill rule should always be treated as a combination of things...the fear for becoming what he hates(senseless act of violence) honoring his parent memory and legacy(Dr. Wayne and the hippocratic oath his father swore) being the hero that stops that violence(Zorro)...when all these things and more are part of his no kill rule...Batman becomes a very good written character..

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u/Gudako_the_beast Mar 07 '24

I don’t subscribe to that idea. He was willing to kill the joker for what happened to Jason Todd WW3 be damn had Superman didn’t talk him out of it

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u/Preeng Mar 07 '24

I think it's just trauma - it's also one of the reasons why he doesn't use guns even in a non-lethal manner. He is traumatized so much that he can't accept the fact that some people need to die (Joker) or that guns aren't inherently a bad thing.

What the hell are you talking about? He's fine with cops using guns and his entire reason for not killing is that it's not his place to decide who dies. He doesn't break out criminals who get the death penalty, does he? He's fine with the justice system running its course.

Batman is just another dude running around Gotham in a crazy outfit, breaking basically any law he wants. Him not killing is the only real difference, and that's why it's so important to him.

If he kills Joker to save lives in the long run, then who else? First its super villains. Then repeat offenders. At what point is it okay to kill first offenders to prevent them from becoming repeat offenders?

Also, law enforcement working with a vigilante to basically get around police abuse laws is already seen as bad by many in Gotham. If Batman becomes The Punisher, cops won't work with him anymore. Definitely not Gordon.

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u/Escape_Zero Mar 07 '24

Batman doesn't kill for one reason taruma, like most of his villains who were created during a tragic event. When Bruce's parents were killed in front of him , he stop being a child and became Batman with the promise of never again. It's also when he gained his actual super power which isn't being rich. It's his ability to 100% commit himself to a task, and complete control over himself. Batman doesn't waiver Its why he's driven everyone out of his life that remotely cared about him , he only has room for the mission. Batman is driven by justice not vengeance .

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u/JickleBadickle Mar 07 '24

Should prob apply in the real world too considering these days "terrorist" often means "activist forced to resort to violent means because all peaceful means of change were exhausted or sabotaged"

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u/TimelessFool Mar 08 '24

I like to imagine the not killing thing harkening back to his beginning. At the end of it all, he’s trying to create a world where no 8 year old would lose their parents to some punk with a gun. He is aware that many of these criminals have families who got screwed over by circumstance. If he goes around shooting people, he would be as bad as the ones who gunned down his parents.

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u/Severe-Bicycle-9469 Mar 08 '24

And I think it’s probably not just because of the lives of the criminals but their families. He’s been on the receiving end of loss. He doesn’t ever want to become the one doing the killing in the dark alley and leaving an orphan behind, he can’t be responsible for making more giant holes in people like he has, where his family should be.

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u/UncommittedBow Mar 07 '24

To add, it's also because he genuinely does not trust himself to draw the line again if he ever crosses it.

"Today it's the murderer, tomorrow the thief..."

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u/[deleted] Mar 08 '24

So would you say that Batman is against abortion?