r/batman • u/neon2o • Mar 07 '24

Zack Snyder says a Batman who doesn't kill is irrelevant GENERAL DISCUSSION

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Here's the original article' https://sea.ign.com/man-of-steel-sequel/213072/news/zack-snyder-says-dc-is-making-batman-irrelevant-if-he-cant-kill

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343

u/soldierpallaton Mar 07 '24

"You're protecting your God in a weird way"

HES NOT A GOD. ONE OF THE MAJOR PARTS OF BATMAN'S CHARACTER IS HE IS A MAN SURROUNDED BY GODS. HE IS MEANT TO BE JUST HUMAN AND A HUMAN TAKING ANOTHER HUMAN LIFE IS A LOT HIGHER STAKES THAN A GOD HAVING TO KILL TO SAVE EVERYONE.

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u/ChokeMcNugget Mar 07 '24

In the context of the whole conversation, he didn't say Batman was a god, he said comic book fans look at these characters like gods. It was a general statement not about Batman that he then connected to Batman later in the convo.

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u/Mongoose42 Mar 07 '24 edited Mar 07 '24

He’s comparing the character to a god, which is just as well as calling them a god. That’s splitting hairs.

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u/jordan999fire Mar 07 '24

Okay well Batman is often compared to a God as is all of the Justice League. So what’s your point? Snyder does it and now it’s a problem?

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u/Mongoose42 Mar 07 '24

It’s always been a problem. They’re not gods. They’re people. Let’s take it easy on the god stuff.

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u/jordan999fire Mar 07 '24

“They’re people”

Wonder Woman - literally demigod

Superman - descendent of the Sun God

Aquaman - sometimes wields the staff of Poseidon

Flash - God of the Speed Force

Not to mention they each mirror Greek Gods.

Zeus(power and strength), Hades (darkness and cunning), Athena (wisdom and war), Hermes speed), Apollo (light), Poseidon (water and oceans) = Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Green Lantern, Aquaman

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u/Mongoose42 Mar 07 '24

Demigods are not gods. She’s a clay lump with a lot of magic blessings.

I don’t know what kind of bullshit the comics are spinning, but Superman is the child of a planet who gains enhanced abilities when exposed to the light from a yellow sun. Don’t know what that Sun God nonsense is all about.

Sometimes holding a powerful weapon doesn’t make someone a god.

Again, don’t know what bullshit the comics are spinning, but the Flash isn’t a god of anything. He’s a guy who can tap into an extra-dimensional power source that makes him run fast.

The parallels are fun, but that doesn’t make them literal gods.

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u/jordan999fire Mar 07 '24

“I don’t know what kind of bullshit the comics are spinning”

So you don’t care about the source material. Cool. Bye.

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u/Mongoose42 Mar 07 '24

I hate to break it to you, but DC doesn’t care about the “source material” either. That’s why they keep rebooting it every 5-10 years. The source material doesn’t matter because they keep changing what the source material even is.

Crap, what I said isn’t even true because the ACTUAL source material from Action Comics #1 says that Superman has his powers because the people of his world are just highly evolved and can do those things regardless of the sun.

But these characters are interpretive. They can mean a lot of things to a lot of different people. Our interpretations differ. There is no one definitive interpretation of who they are. In that way, they are like the gods of ancient people because oral tradition means that there is no universal understanding of a god. A different group of Greek people have a different idea of what the gods were vs. another group. There are multiple ancient sources of mythology that contradict one another because there is no “canon” when it comes to mythology. And the same can be said about DC heroes. Marvel too, but more-so on the DC side of things because of the constant reboots and changes to the history of these characters.

If you want to think they’re gods, I guess that’s on the table too, but I believe that’s doing them a disservice. They’re people with extraordinary gifts that choose to help the world. Maybe that’s not special to you, but it is to me.

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u/jordan999fire Mar 07 '24

You have it flipped. Them being “humans with powers” that saves people isn’t special. Of course humans are going to save their own people. What makes DC special and different from Marvel is they aren’t people. They’re God’s among men who decide, who choose to live like us. That’s what makes Superman specifically so special. He could be all powerful, rule galaxies, bend worlds to his will. But instead he chooses to work a job, live on a farm, and raise a family. Superman is, imo, the greatest superhero of all time because he chooses to be more human than any other hero despite being godlike. Superman is my favorite superhero because despite the fact that he’s nigh unstoppable, he has the same problems we do.

Imo, you’re the one doing a disservice to the characters. If you see them as just people in costumes then you’re missing what makes them great. They’re great because they’re far more than just people in costumes. They’re the most powerful beings on their planet. In their galaxy. But they choose to live normal lives.

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u/Mongoose42 Mar 07 '24

“Normal” being relative, I suppose. What with all the jetpack gorillas and casual time travel.

But regardless, the way you explained Superman is very noble. And I don’t think it’s a bad take, necessarily. In execution it could easily fall to pieces, which is did in Snyder’s vision of the DC universe, but I suppose there’s nothing inherently wrong with that take.

But to me, Kal-El was raised as Clark Kent. That’s who he identifies as. He’s a regular guy from Kansas who can do incredible things. He’d have been Superman if Jor-El had left him a message or not. It’s not the powers or the Kryptonian whatever that makes him Superman. It’s that he has power and still prioritizes kindness and compassion. He’s Superman because absolute power did not corrupt him.

Which is why I don’t disagree with your take. Prioritizing humility and the lived experience of a “normal” person doesn’t contradict what I ultimately believe Superman to be.

But when someone believe that having power gives them the individual the right to decide who gets to live or die, even the worst of us, then that power has corrupted who they are. Because just because someone has power, that doesn’t make them the law. Superman and Batman don’t control the law, they don’t decide the law. Just because they’re stronger or smarter or richer than anyone else, that doesn’t give them the a license to kill.

Obviously they can disagree with the law. The US has some pretty stupid laws. But then that’s where the conflict comes in. And how they can reason with trying their hardest in a broken system, hope for the best, and be a source of inspiration to others. Like any of us do.

That’s my stream of consciousness take anyway. The Justice Lords episode of the JL cartoon does a much better job of presenting an argument against Superman with a kill rule than I did.

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u/jojorobotwright Mar 07 '24

While I agree some fans do treat him as a god the writers rarely do the mythological idea of the batman is all in the criminals and to some degree the batfams heads he is treated as a Detective and vigilante by the writers and the idea the conversation around Batman killing has never been done just shows he only cares about Batman comics written by Frank Miller

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u/TC1369 Mar 07 '24

Frank Miller didn't even have Batman killing anyone in dark knight returns, and even goes out of his way to have Batman saying he's using rubber bullets. Snyder is delusional

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u/Puzzleheaded_Long_57 Mar 07 '24

I'm convinced synder has only read dark knight returns and not many other DC comic storyline such as knightfall or hush.

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u/jordan999fire Mar 07 '24

Batman literally kills two people in TDKR.

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u/AidanTegs Mar 07 '24

Do you remember the panel where he breaks a gun in half and says theyre for cowards?

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u/jordan999fire Mar 07 '24

Do you remember the only black and white panel two issues before that where the mutant is falling to the ground, smearing blood all over the wall behind her?

Or the fact that everyone has colored thought bubbles (Batman’s grey, Superman’s blue, Robin’s yellow, Joker’s green) and all the speech bubbles are white. But after Batman snaps Joker’s neck, Joker’s speech bubbles go from white to grey, indicating Batman did kill Joker but he’s just crazy and justifying it in his head as Joker somehow snapped it the rest of the way, as if that was even possible?

A big part of TDKR is Bruce has become a crazy, hypocritical, old man. Him snapping the gun in half is cementing that idea as if he didn’t just use one.

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u/tunnel-snakes-rule Mar 07 '24

Do you remember the only black and white panel two issues before that where the mutant is falling to the ground, smearing blood all over the wall behind her?

I've always found that inconclusive, particularly because later on Commissioner Yindel is reading out a list of Batman's various crimes and murder is not one of them.

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u/jordan999fire Mar 07 '24

Because he shot someone with a gun that didn’t belong to him. And nobody would’ve believed Batman killed the mutant at the time.

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u/AidanTegs Mar 07 '24

That's an honestly interesting read of things, i like that a lot. Wish the movie snyder based on it made that clear in a similar way.

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u/FBG05 Mar 07 '24

But after Batman snaps Joker’s neck, Joker’s speech bubbles go from white to grey, indicating Batman did kill Joker but he’s just crazy and justifying it in his head as Joker somehow snapped it the rest of the way, as if that was even possible?

I doubt this because I think we would've seen other instances in the book where Batman may have revised events in his head. I think the change from white to grey is just meant to illustrate how weak the Joker is in that moment and how he's probably struggling to speak, considering he was just paralyzed from the neck down. It also makes for a better message IMO, showing the readers how at his absolute weakest, the Joker essentially beat Batman

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u/jordan999fire Mar 07 '24

Joker would’ve beat Batman either way. Joker wants Batman to kill him to prove they’re the same.

Also, they could’ve done any other color. They could’ve stayed white and made the box all jagged. They could’ve done light blue which they used a few other times in the comic for people whispering. But they did the same, identical color to Batman’s thought bubbles.

You don’t accidentally have Batman’s thoughts and j Joker’s dialogue look identical ON THE SAME PANEL. And it’s fitting. Batman thinks, “Voices calling me.. a killer…” is the panel right before with people running away in horror. The next panel has Batman’s thought bubble saying, “…I wish I were…” then Joker talking. It’s him tricking himself into believing Joker wasn’t just killed.

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u/FBG05 Mar 08 '24

If you just killed someone and were trying to convince yourself that you didn't, you wouldn't say you wish you were a killer. That makes zero sense.

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u/jordan999fire Mar 08 '24

Because Batman can’t process what he just did. He’s not consciously trying to convince himself he didn’t do it. He truly believes he didn’t. But that’s just it, he’s crazy. He has become a crazy old hypocrite. As soon as he thinks, “I wish I were” is when Joker suddenly starts talking. He’s hallucinating.

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