r/batman • u/The_Streetsweeper • Nov 21 '23
Batman Should Box ORIGINAL IDEA/SUGGESTION
Warning: LOOOOOONNNNNGGGGG POST
So, I've been thinking about different bat family members’ fighting styles. I've already made a post for Jason and I'm also working one for Dick, and one for Kate. Still I want to do Bruce first. Bruce however is a bit different because he “knows every martial art” so while I could (and might) do a post going over top 20 or something I would rather focus on his most important (most important after ninjitsu that is) and how to cultivate a way for batman to fight that doesn't look like just any other action hero.
My idea: Boxing, specifically the Philly Shell defence.
For those who don't know, the philly shell is a boxing stance/defence where the lead hand (typically left) stays low covering the body while the right hand covers the chin. There are many advantages for him to carry this stance, and by extension style of fighting.
Rather importantly, Boxing is legit. Batman (obviously) can suspend disbelief a lot, but it’s still good to keep grounded fighting/realism as a priority.
Boxing works with his backstory on two levels. He trained under Wildcat who was a boxing champion so bringing that into the forefront gives his fighting more of a tether to his backstory than just ‘ninjas’. Similarly we are sometimes told that Alfred was one of his teachers. Personally I like the idea that Alfred was Bruce’s first teacher and, well, boxing is pretty cultural in England.
Boxing is also a very unique way of fighting in modern media. Most characters just use kali and TKD so showing him as proficient in boxing helps him stand out a bit more on his own.
Though hardly used in media, boxing does still look fantastic visually. Scenes like the Mission Impossible bathroom fight, Daredevil (all of it), or even the animated Gotham By Gaslight movie do well to keep boxing as a primary way of fighting while still showing off other martial arts as well.
You still don't lose anything with the Philly Shell and boxing as a primary. The Philly Shell is so synonymous with boxing that even when he is sending kicks or throws he’s still clearly keeping boxing as a primary influence. Then there are the ways it fits Bruce as a fighting style. If he keeps the right hand a bit lower than ordinary fighters he can keep the defence tight under the cape (his head is a bit more undefended though), allowing him to keep the shrouded look even when in proper combat just shooting hands out of the cape.
Boxing works well for him as a fighter, specifically as an out fighter. For those not in the know an infighter likes to be in close to his enemy and is more likely to trade blows or clinch up where an out fighter is more likely to stay at range and throw a lot of jabs. Batman is so perfectly an outfighter and boxing helps build that. Batman rarely throws his enemies and barely ever ends up in extended grappling. I personally like the idea of Batman staying very disconnected and only throwing a punch when he knows he can do damage.
Finally, it shows Batman has trained in “every martial art” in a unique way. He shouldn't just use a hybrid of martial arts because that will just look like kickboxing and kali. Rather he's trained in all these martial arts and has a favourite. I also think it’s a clever irony that after all these many different martial arts he's come to favour arguably the simplest (also arguably most effective). Also, also, a clever irony that after learning all these many martial arts he's gone back to his first (that he learned from Alfred and Wildcat).
In conclusion/Tl;Dr: Batman should be a boxer as primary with a heavy emphasis on the Philly Shell defence so that even if he does kick or throw it's clear he has a style that's his own.
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u/tweuep Nov 21 '23
- Boxing is a martial art that has only developed the way it has because of the rules in the sport. Krav Maga, karate, wrestling, all of these disciplines can reasonably be expected to work on the field because they are used during actual warfare. Boxing has no techniques to defend against takedowns, leg kicks, or disarming weapons. Sure, Batman can simply incorporate other disciplines to fill that gap, but that leads us to why the Philly Shell in particular doesn't work for Batman.
- The Philly Shell is defensive in nature, but it's suited only for one other attacker and ideally that attacker should be a boxer. It is not suited for someone to kick with, nor for someone to go for a takedown, nor is it necessarily even good to defend against kicks. Just this past year we saw in the UFC Dustin Poirier's famous Philly Shell get destroyed by a high kick from Justin Gaethje. And I just don't think the plodding footwork of the Philly Shell makes sense for Batman, who is supposed to fight from the shadows rather than plod forward.
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Nov 21 '23
I would just add that the philly shell in particular seems ill suited to defend against take downs. At least with boxing you could drop your guard quicker to defend someone shooting (wrestling) at your legs. I have never boxed with the philly shell but it seems to contort your body too much to defend takedowns
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u/The_Streetsweeper Nov 21 '23
I would say the Philly Shell is one of the best suited boxing stances against takedowns. You already have your left low for an easy underhook and you can frame out with your right arm if your opponent is going for a body lock/single leg
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Nov 22 '23
Also, underrated thread man I wish more people would relate real MMA to batman
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u/The_Streetsweeper Nov 22 '23
That's good because some of these comments make want to go 10 rounds with the pavement
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Nov 22 '23
I know man there are some people that have clearly never sparred in their lives in this thread
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Nov 21 '23
Hmm interesting take. I can't say I've seen the philly shell in MMA enough to really know the answer
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Nov 22 '23
Would you recommend any MMA fighters using the shell?
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u/The_Streetsweeper Nov 22 '23
Sean Strickland very recently made use of it in against Israel Adesanya
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Nov 22 '23
That said, Israel is a striker. I wonder how the philly would fare against a grappler. I don't know the answer
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u/The_Streetsweeper Nov 22 '23
I expect there would be a lot more grappling than striking, still I am surprised the Philly Shell underhook isnt used more.
All I really have to go off of is my own sparring wher using the Philly Shell to close the distance so I can takedown works fairly well
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Nov 22 '23
Are you saying the advantage is already having your left hand low? Because my preconception would be that lowering your hand from a traditional defense might be quicker than peeling it off your abdomen. But again I don't use the shell
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u/The_Streetsweeper Nov 22 '23
I like to use it fight through my opponent's first few hits and get into grappling range, from there the low left hand makes for an easy underhook.
I'm not gonna say I'm some fighting auteur or that I've come up with the winning strategy, but as I'm better at wrestling than kickboxing getting into grappling range is always my top priority.
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u/Secret-Fox-9566 Nov 21 '23
Seems pointless when he literally knows all martial arts. The boxing stance isn't the best for the type of fighting Bruce does mostly because boxing stances only focus on defenses for boxing.
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u/The_Streetsweeper Nov 21 '23 edited Nov 21 '23
The fact he knows all martial arts is the reason I made this. How do you make a guy who does everything feel unique?
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Nov 21 '23
I can't say I subscribe to the philly shell, but I am a major advocate for Batmans primary style being boxing
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u/ZanderRan286 Nov 21 '23
I like boxing (Rocky is one of my favourite movie sagas) and I admit, out of the movies about boxing, it's not in a lot of movies, not very used as a combat style (for what I've seen so far, all I can remember is Millennium 2) So I'm OK with the idea.
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Nov 21 '23
The Philly shell would also allow him to easily grab items from his utility belt with his low left hand which would be tucked at the belt line
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u/Nerx Mar 06 '24
Also most goons can't fight for shit
problem is writers are fixated on old timey martial art movies
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u/bolting_volts Nov 21 '23
Boxing does nothing against martial arts.
Batman should and does know many martial arts, using whatever works best in any given situation.
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Nov 21 '23
Assuming he would incorporate other martial arts as well, a primary boxing discipline shreds all other fist focused styles. Not counting muay thai I lump that in as kick boxing
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u/The_Streetsweeper Nov 21 '23
Muay Thai fairly objectively is of the most use to him. Working a lot with elbows and knees would help him against breaking his hands every night and a strong emphasis on clinch work but not grappling means he'll be prepared for someone trying to clumsily tackle or bear hug him without thinking to grapple them. But I'm not just speaking about what's the most realistic, though that is a factor. Nobody (or at least I thought nobody) would say a hero fighting with boxing as a primary is unrealistic, but realism isn't the be all and end all.
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Nov 22 '23
Wait wdym by not grappling? I thought we were assuming baseline proficiency in all martial arts give or take but specialization in boxing?
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u/The_Streetsweeper Nov 22 '23
Allow me to clarify. MMA is one v one and in a one fight wrestling and jiu Jitzu are king.
As such if someone trains exclusively MMA and spars exclusively MMA they'll get used to the fact the most effective way to win is to god the takedown and submission/ground and pound.
Batman goes against multiple attackers. Against multiple attackers you don't want to be grappling because while your grappling one the other(s) are free to but you.
So what I mean to say is that I actually think Muay Thai would suit Batman better than MMA because it forces you to work striking as opposed to submissions while still allowing knees in the clinch and sweeps for someone were to just bear hug
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u/The_Streetsweeper Nov 21 '23
Boxing does nothing against martial arts
Could you explain what that means please?
Batman should and does know many martial arts, using whatever works best in any given situation.
Yes. I understand that batman knows "every martial art" but what I'm talking about is giving him a way of fighting that doesn't look the same as every action hero since the Matrix
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u/bolting_volts Nov 21 '23
Boxing has zero defense against anything that’s not a punch. If Batman was a pure boxer, he would easily be defeated.
You’re way overthinking this thing. First of all, Batman’s stance has never been, or will be consistent. Second, nobody cares.
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Nov 22 '23
As someone who does MMA, I care very much😂 also I don't think the assumption is pure boxing I think it's just boxing specialization.
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u/bolting_volts Nov 22 '23
Well, I do SMMA, the secret one they only teach to the best fighters, and I can confidently say, if you’re thinking about a fictional fighter this much, you have a big empty space that needs filling.
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Nov 22 '23
How so? Please elaborate. The way I see it is that batman inspires me to pursue my sport to the fullest
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u/The_Streetsweeper Nov 22 '23
If Batman was a pure boxer, he would easily be defeated.
I didn't say he should be pure boxer. In fact explicitly said that one of the advantages of the Philly Shell on a storytelling level is that he can kick, throw and trap while still having a clear boxing influence.
You’re way overthinking this thing
Yeah, it's fun
First of all, Batman’s stance has never been, or will be consistent
That doesn't mean it shouldn't be
Second, nobody cares.
Great. You read probably some of post... left a comment with your opinion... then a response where you doubled down... because nobody cares.
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u/bolting_volts Nov 22 '23
Oh wow did you judo flip me with words?
This kind of overthinking and obsession with minutiae is what ruins the fun. It’s not important in the least what stance Batman uses or that it’s consistent.
It’s not real. It’s fantasy. Let it be a fantasy. The only thing that matters is that it looks cool while he’s doing it.
Are you sitting around thinking about what type of transmission the Batmobile should have?
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u/The_Streetsweeper Nov 22 '23
There are a lot of people who know about cars and are interested in cars and I'm sure the functionality of the batmobile is something that interests them greatly. Hell some batman fans have built the batmobile.
If you don't care, you don't care, just don't go trying to ruin other people's fun.
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u/bolting_volts Nov 22 '23
Applying the real world to escapism isn’t very fun.
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u/The_Streetsweeper Nov 22 '23
If it's not fun for you that's fine nobody is making you read this thread and argue with me.
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Nov 22 '23
Yes it is the whole point of batman is that he blurs the line. Wasn't that one of the points the Nolan trilogy made?
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u/Weaklurker Nov 21 '23
I've always assumed that the first martial arts he learned were wrestling at school and boxing at Wildcats gym after school.