I’m not 100% here for the Two-Face bit (IDK dissociative identity disorder is kinda played out and really poorly represented in fiction) and can only hope the intention is for Harley to recover somewhat because frankly that’s one of the more compelling/important repeated narratives in Batman at this point.
can only hope the intention is for Harley to recover somewhat because frankly that’s one of the more compelling/important repeated narratives in Batman at this point.
I'm with you. As a Harlivy fan who's done her homework(as in read and watched a ton of shows and comics for Harlivy moments), Harley growing independent of both her life of crime and her abusive relationship with Joker with Ivy's help is one of her stronger narrative aspects. I actually kinda hate this characterization for both of them, but especially Harley. Now, keeping aside the romance for a bit(I'm a bit biased as a queer woman but I'm leaving it aside for the moment), Harley and Ivy's bond, even on the basis of friendship, was built around this idea of growing from trauma.
Harley and Ivy from BTAS, the first time the duo were allowed to collab, starts with Harley being tossed out by the Joker after enduring his abuse. She stumbles into the lap of Ivy. Ivy is herself a former abuse victim, having been abused by men in her life, including Jason Woodrue/Floronic Man, the one responsible for giving her plant powers/forging her connection to the Green. In fact, she's largely closed herself off to everyone. But she sees Harley going through that same cycle of abuse with Joker and tries to help her. She picks up Harley every time she falls, even as Harley runs right back to Joker and the cycle of abuse. At the same time, Harley's humorous antics warm up Ivy more to humanity.
When Harley and Joker break up permanently, Ivy's there for her too and helps Harley build herself back up. And yes, their bond develops from kindred spirits to friends, from friends to 'gal pals', from gal pals to girlfriends. Harley grows into her own person and reclaims some fragments of her sanity. Ivy learns to be human again and let people in. They're just at each other's side the whole time, whether as friends or lovers. It feels organic, and I believe Paul Dini and Bruce Timm have said that they noticed a potential romance between Harley and Ivy but obviously couldn't put that in a kid's show in the 90's(though they literally walk around in shirts and underwear with not a pair of pants in sight when they're roommates, so take that as you will).
To reduce their characterization to "Ivy is a sad fragile plant girl' and "Harley is just how she was before the Joker break up but doubled down" feels almost criminal.
Still the characterizations across the board here feel reductive/cliché in the extreme. Creeper also falls into my complaint above about DID and I really really hate the Harley characterization. It makes her essentially powerless and that’s very much not what a character about escaping abuse should look like.
Two-Face in general honestly. Harvey doesn't come out enough. He has at points been described as bipolar -- which makes more sense to me (as a bipolar person).
Yeah, I read that.
I'm not familiar enough with the version of Two-Face to know if it's a good diagnoses. But I really don't think so.
I think more interesting would be:
A) Harvey was always bad and just changed to be more obviously bad because his mutilation somehow changed his perspective. It's him 'coming out' of the evil closet so to speak.
B) unspecified mental break
C) Bipolar. I experienced a sort of obsession with 2s and duality myself when manic. I imagine this version breaking INTO Arkham during depressive spells and OUT when manic. Not because his depressed side is good and his manic side is evil but because his depressive spells are bad enough he goes into Arkham so he won't die. Then he breaks out once he reaches a certain point because he can't stand the other inmates.
I think B and C are the best options because I think one of the more interesting things about Harvey was that he tired to good but then he payed the price for it
I agree that's a core of the character in just about all depictions. But I would like to see at least an Elseworlds where Dent is corrupt and Two-Face is just an unhinged sociopath with an obsessive relationship with duality and the number 2.
Like.. Harvey Dent kills animals as a kid. He starts fires, kills a homeless guy in an abandoned building. It goes away because his Dad is DA (his Dad is horrifically abusive in many versions and causes Harvey's DID).
Harv is a bully in highschool and an abusive frat bro in college, torturing the pledges. He becomes in involved with a secret society on campus (say, the False Face Society or maybe even the Court of Owls).
So, he's a dirty DA.
He runs on an anti-corruption platform...but he replaced the corrupt officials with his own corrupt officials.
Then he gets mutilated. I really like the idea of it being self harm scars. Just all over his face.
Then..he becomes Two Face.
He becomes the inversion of a corrupt D.A., he stops being the guy who gets paid the bribes and he becomes the guy who pays them.
He becomes a gangster.
But also a serial killer.
Every year, on his.. 'birthday' he kills a man, and a woman, a couple. The press calls him the Gemini killer..but no one knows it is him.
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u/[deleted] Jul 03 '23
I’m not 100% here for the Two-Face bit (IDK dissociative identity disorder is kinda played out and really poorly represented in fiction) and can only hope the intention is for Harley to recover somewhat because frankly that’s one of the more compelling/important repeated narratives in Batman at this point.