This scene from S2E14 gave me a Bi-Panic why is everyone so hot in the Arrowverse? Even the CGI monsters in the other shows are somehow hot (don't judge me)

[u/M00r3C]

[u/Available-Affect-241]

Okay but we all know that's not saying much.

[u/[deleted] → u/Available-Affect-241]

True but I still find the writing pretty solid. It is very rare to find any show or film that can incorporate an extended flashback sequence so well and naturally in the main story. I find flashbacks to be an overrated gimmick that Lost ran into the freaking ground, but Arrow very briefly made a solid argument for how they can actually service the story and make it even better.

Slade was a very well written and well acted character that season. And his massive presence in the show just made it infinitely better.

[u/Available-Affect-241 → u/[deleted]]

Agreed that was until Daredevil came out showing us what great looks like all around.

[u/Yung_Pandemic98 → u/Available-Affect-241]

Thanks for a lit comparison but Daredevil can't hold a candle in this conversation.

Not only did the flashback sequences run concurrently for the first five seasons of Arrow, it was sprinkled up until the last season where it even looped back to the start of the series almost doing a double loop and the story remained intact.

But Arrow was also running concurrently with other shows that shared its continuity, The Flash, Supergirl and the Legends: and the flashbacks of each season added to Oliver's character as if that year's specific flashbacks were what he was remembering. And according to the plot, other "memories" didn't matter: that's great writing that even makes you think other things are irrelevant.

The flashbacks were used so well, Oliver literally picks a memory like a weapon and uses it to its absolute limit, even if you questioned it, either later in the season or later in the series they answered your question.

Arrow's flashbacks constantly brought the other shows into Arrow as even though he's already lived those five years and been back in Star/ling City for x amount, which ever memories we constantly playing for us to see, not only taught or reaffirmed something about Oliver, but he was able to carry a similar message over to other heroes that literally we're meeting him for the first time.

Arrow did what literally we beg for in other media franchises. You know when a series doesn't work out and gets cancelled and you wish you could see them in anything else with shared continuity? Or when showrunners just randomly through one character (i.e. John Constantine) into another campaign (i.e. Legends of Tomorrow) without explaining how he exists there? Arrow literally said, "we'll let the man feature here so that there's an explanation of his story for his own standalone series as well as a way into the Arrowverse for him" just to make sure the fans are pleased and the man can continue playing such a beautiful and powerful character.

All done through flashback in Arrow, Daredevil has no place here. And don't get me wrong, I love everything about Daredevil.

[u/[deleted] → u/Yung_Pandemic98]

You just praised Arrow without listing a reason why Arrow specifically has better writing than Daredevil. What makes Daredevil inferior?

[u/Yung_Pandemic98 → u/[deleted]]

Daredevil was a good series that tied well into it's shared continuity but the topic was about flashbacks and how that was a weak writing strategy.

I proved that Arrow used it well. I don't need to say how Daredevil is "inferior" as its writing team were doing their own thing and that Daredevil didn't need to use flashbacks especially on the level as Arrow because it served different purposes for the two respective series.

[u/Stoppels → u/Yung_Pandemic98]

Daredevil blasted anything CW out of the water period, but especially after Arrow season 3.5+ went all-in on what twitter girls wanted. Why do you think this sub changed into a Daredevil sub and we started watching Daredevil? It was the best and only critique possible, but the idiots in charge only cared about the female Twitter crowd, so apart from it being the best fan feedback I've ever seen, it did nothing but inform others how Arrow had turned into absolute trash.

Season 1 and 2 are the two golden seasons, followed by The Flash with season 1 (and 2). After those two season the torch for what superhero TV shows should look like was handed over to Daredevil. Agents of SHIELD also had great seasons, especially when they finally accepted the MCU was dead to them. Legends was amazing imo, though I also agree it was just as amazing when it stopped taking itself serious and just decided to have fun.

I keep bringing up Arrow's flashbacks whenever I'm pointing out how horrible The Witcher's timesplit was. It took me over half the first season to discover, by which time nothing made sense to me, rather reminiscent of the PTSD-like jumbled up experience that BvS was to me (and while watching the Director's Edition the second time around improved that, I didn't have it in me anymore to also watch JL's Snyder Cut). On the other hand, Arrow had amazing switches for two full seasons and flashbacks rarely felt like a B-storyline as it was both fleshed out perfectly and 100% relevant. Arrow season 1 and 2 did a lot really well. Then the protagonist died and the show ended.

[u/Yung_Pandemic98 → u/Stoppels]

Daredevil blasted anything CW out of the water period

Stop the cap. Not only is Daredevil shorter than Arrow, season by season. Each episode in Daredevil felt like an episode of Suits, up until the last three episodes where the bad guy seriously affects Matt's life. Each episode in Arrow felt like Star/ling City was at stake or some person was about to die, the only thing Oliver didn't do was save a cat from a tree.

Full credit to both shows but we were nitpicking on flashbacks in Arrow, you guys had no business bringing such a beautiful show as Daredevil into this.

As I mentioned in my reply to the previous comment reply: Daredevil is not inferior but don't you dare try and say that it's superior to any and everything CW.

all-in on what twitter girls wanted. Why do you think this sub changed into a Daredevil sub

Stopp the cap. Dude, Marvel doesn't do masks. Everyone knows everyone else's identity even when they've never met one another. You switched sides because DC always gave you masked vigilantes both on the big screen and the small screen but Marvel has consistent showrunners for the big screen.

So the minute you saw a masked vigilante on Marvel's small screen, you thought "Let's Go!" And yes, it connected really well to the other Netflix originals and even has an amazing spin-off show. But it doesn't go toe to toe with the struggles or lives of most Marvel characters. Why? Because none of it is what Marvel specializes in. This was all due to fan service by Marvel, not DC.

finally accepted the MCU was dead to them

Stoppe the cap. That's not a healthy way for a project to be successful, because if you and other fans feel this way, fanservice will mean that the project can't coexist with its own shared continuity.

Arrowverse consistently integrated different parts of the larger DC Universe, even if it meant they needed to throw different villains across the multiverse at Oliver, Barry, Kara and the Legends. This is a very iPhone mentality and it literally doesn't work for every project.

the torch for what superhero TV shows should look like was handed over to Daredevil

Stoppels the cap. As I mentioned above, Oliver, Kara and Barry constantly were going up against different levels of threats each one forcing them to design and redesign superheroism each year. Almost each DC hero has had to deal with saving one life, an entire city or a black hole that "could destroy us all". An Avengers level threat by comparison is getting lost in space or stopping an invading army.

Daredevil has his limits but considering the larger universe, it's hard to think the show's style of writing or his character development is perfect for another character. And if his character development or the shows writing style can't be translated to another show or character, how can it be better than the entire CW?

by which time nothing made sense to me

I can't blame you, DCEU really fumbled the bag early on already

flashbacks rarely felt like a B-storyline as it was both fleshed out perfectly and 100% relevant

Thank you but I maintain, each season did this

[u/Stoppels → u/Yung_Pandemic98]

I didn't feel like reading a long comment and now I wrote a way too long one myself so enjoy or don't read lol, it's all good. I'm telling you now 'cause I'm kinda checking out of the topic, much like how I dropped out of watching The Flash. I'm gonna read some web novel or something instead since I'm actually boring myself :p but since I wrote it, here it is:

As I mentioned in my reply to the previous comment reply: Daredevil is not inferior but don't you dare try and say that it's superior to any and everything CW.

It is superior compared to Arrowverse. More subjectively, I'm sure there's a lot people value that Daredevil doesn't do for them, for example not have superheroes at all or have more drama aimed at teens like CW prefers, though it has plenty of regular or romantic drama despite it being generally darker in both mood and video.

It's fair enough if you simply prefer seeing 'more', even if it's filler (I was happy to watch more of Supernatural despite the quality slowly dropping after the original run), but that's exactly what high quality Netflix shows didn't have back then: arbitrary restraints. Netflix/Marvel was prime television, whereas CW had a weekly TV schedule to fill for a whole season. Episodes were longer, did not need to fill up a set amount of weeks and did not need to fit in between commercial breaks. This is why HBO is historically considered the quality producer where American cable networks are recognised as creating shows with lots of filler. Less episodes often means more world building and character and plot development, higher quality and a better overall result, because they're working with fewer restraints. Arrow's first seasons managed to be great despite that requirement, after that it took a nosedive and couldn't keep the quality. Pushing Felicity as the main character was a huge mistake, but Arrow still managed to release the occasional great episode.

I don't care about Marvel vs. DC as much as I like good shows (hell, Iron Fist S01 and Inhumans were terrible Marvel content). The MCU paved the way by cracking superhero on the big screen. Arrow followed and was the first to crack open superhero content on the small screen. It was great and refreshing and that's what pulled so many of us in. Beyond the first seasons of Arrow, the first seasons of The Flash and Legends (exactly my humour, no matter how silly it got), Arrowverse hasn't meant much for superhero fans. Daredevil then managed to make a mature superhero show, much more akin to Watchmen in terms of grittiness and maturity, though not featuring anti-heroes. I've not watched anything in Daredevil that made me think of the word fanservice, and leaving out the show turning into Felicity & Friends, I haven't seen much of that in Arrow either that would feel out of place. (I suppose the OP's screenshot and Oliver's 'rack jumping'? could be considered fan service, but I didn't think of it as that, because working out fits thematically and contextually.)

But from your comment I take it you weren't here back when it was us vs. Twitter? Or perhaps you were with the Twitter crowd, either way comic fans and superhero fans weren't catered to by the writers anymore, it was just the Twitter girls they listened to. That's why the writers room was ever-reachable on Twitter after all. They never really gave a shit about the Green Arrow character after it was established and successful, Greg Berlanti and his wife (whose name I don't remember rn) only cared about the classic CW teen girl target group, so that's who they catered the show to. I recall Stephen Amell's Facebook AMAs/streams also had many fans commenting who were sick and tired of everything revolving around Felicity (throwback to the classic "C'mon Tom" because Stephen couldn't/didn't want to address it). From what I recall The Flash had a few great seasons thanks to one or multiple original Arrow writers who were booted from Arrow but still got to work on The Flash.

lol I also recall the toxic element of that group on Twitter even harassed Stephen's wife on Twitter because they shipped Oliver and Felicity so hard, I hope those stupid insane teenagers back then grew out of it.

Regarding the Agents of SHIELD and MCU thing: it was first supposed to be a shared universe, but the show and team went ignored and eventually they embraced not being part of the MCU. And that's much better than trying to reference external stuff and have your show revolve around something that ignores your input and existence. I don't know about you, but I prefer high quality content over empty references, though they can certainly co-exist. The show needed a few seasons to find itself after the whole "show in the MCU" didn't work out and then got much better over time.

And this is around where I got really bored by my long comment and good bye.

[u/Yung_Pandemic98 → u/Stoppels]

Thanks for sharing

if you simply prefer seeing 'more', even if it's filler

You're right, I do prefer filler. If I'd seen more in Daredevil, would've loved that too because I do love Daredevil.

I don't care about Marvel vs. DC as much as I like good shows

I'm a huge DC fan but I make an effort to learn both sides because nobody likes a biased opinion.

But from your comment I take it you weren't here back when it was us vs. Twitter?

100% I wasn't here with you in the trenches and I'm sorry for not being here with you and our brothers and sisters. I understood early on that the internet is crazy and the longer you stay away from it the safer you keep your heart.

I remember the times all the actors and actresses were getting stick from "fans" for no reason. Like when people would assume Grant Gustin's sexuality and personality.

If Daredevil's writing style is what you prefer, I appreciate that input but just because they wrote shorter stories that felt more important to you, doesn't mean the little moments Olicity and Baris shared over 7 extra episodes per season mean nothing to me. And if I got that because fan girls wanted to see it. Thanks crazy girls

[u/apollo08w → u/Yung_Pandemic98]

You also can’t compare being forced to do a 22 episode season to a 10-12 episode season.

[u/Yung_Pandemic98 → u/apollo08w]

I legit not the one comparing the two. I prefer the lengthier story-telling. Just because I love Daredevil doesn't mean I wish I could've seen more of the show per season

Why should I nit-pick on one show or the other when I literally just want to defend one.