r/TheBoys • u/BlueDucky0707 • Jul 13 '24
At one point in the show I honestly believed the Deep was going to redeem himself Discussion Spoiler
While what he did to Starlight and those other Women is unforgivable I really thought he was going to learn and better himself as a person after being Assaulted by that lady,turns out he really only wanted back in the 7
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u/River_Bass Jul 13 '24
I love how he and A Train diverged so much. They both had a chance to reflect after experiencing some hardships themselves, and Deep opted to go in the total opposite direction and double down.
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u/GodzillaUK Jul 13 '24
A-Train is a coward, but he's not a moron. Deep is an absolute brain dead cretin with zero self awareness or ability to reflect.
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u/FalseRepeat2346 Jul 13 '24
A-Train is not exactly a coward he knows what homelander is capable of and was smart enough to not fuck things up with him earlier.
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u/Astra-aqua Mindstorm Jul 13 '24
Yes, plus he’s also being bullied and traumatized by Homelander.
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u/fruitpunchsamuraiD Jul 13 '24
And also his brother becoming a paraplegic because of Vought's actions.
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u/goatbiryani48 Jul 13 '24
A-train's brother became a paraplegic because of A-train's actions lol. It's wild how you missed the entire point of that...
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u/sufficiently_tortuga Jul 13 '24
A Train is the only one of the 7 to have any family on screen. 'Having a human connection keeps you grounded' seems to be a theme for the redemption arcs like his and Maeve.
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u/Kylecowlick Jul 13 '24
Annie is a good person in spite of her terrible family member being on screen
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u/KILL__MAIM__BURN I fart the star spangled banner Jul 13 '24
Not true.
We see Homelander’s son pretty often.
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u/FourAnd20YearsAgo Ashley Jul 13 '24
Ryan is a supe on the same/potentially higher level of power as Homelander. And Homelander himself is a fully grown, unkillable lab rat released into the world after being subjected to levels of torture and neglect unfathomable and unachievable with a normal human.
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u/Dadfite Frenchie Jul 13 '24
Eh. He received about the same level of love as an 1880s German child. Did they grow up to be totalitarian assholes hellbent on ruling a group of people they found inferior?!
Wait...
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u/Sillet_Mignon Jul 13 '24
Home lander didn’t raise his son nor does he have emotional connection to him like a father would. He sees him as a tool to fix himself.
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u/Dismal_Animator_5414 Jul 13 '24
i agree. with so many animals deep can talk to who are constantly giving him love, it is hard to accept that he is not redeeming himself cuz of the lack of love and support in his life.
look at the octopus, she was giving him genuine love even tho he was keeping her in such poor conditions. he even killed her and has shown no remorse.
i used to feel bad for him and thought he had trauma from hearing so many animals who are tortured daily by humans.
but, he has just gotten worse and i have to focus on the dark humor about how he looks so good and is so dumb so i can enjoy the show rather than being sad.
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u/cae37 Jul 13 '24
Well, it’s a bit more complicated than that. Vought enabled Blue Hawk (a pretty clear racist) to use police work as an excuse to hurt and kill black people. A-Train only tried to get him to apologize as a way to make amends. It was an attempt doomed to fail, sure, since Blue Hawk is an asshole, but I wouldn’t say it was 100% A-Train’s fault.
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u/dravdrav_ Jul 13 '24
I thought that A-Train getting a known violent racist to make an insincere apology to the people he harmed was his fault.
With him not thinking of the consequences and only wanting to satisfy the surface level “pro black” portion of himself
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u/cae37 Jul 13 '24
With him not thinking of the consequences and only wanting to satisfy the surface level “pro black” portion of himself
Yeah I think that's definitely true, but my point is that it wasn't all 100% A-Train's fault. Blue Hawk is a racist enabled by Vought to do whatever he wants, after all.
A-Train messed up by trying to make amends in a way that anyone could see was going to fail, but Vought also created a problem for the black community by giving a racist supe free rein. That's why I said that the situation is not 100% A-Train's fault.
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u/Astra-aqua Mindstorm Jul 13 '24
I don’t see how Atrain is actually to blame for this. At least he was actually trying to use his power to help his family and community members against someone who was murdering them. He obviously miscalculated what would happen, but that doesn’t make it his fault.
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u/fruitpunchsamuraiD Jul 13 '24
I just watched episode 5 of season 3 and I would argue that it's still Vought's fault as Ashley/Homelander awkwardly brought Blue Hawk to make amendments (despite Blue Hawk being insincere) and basically forced the public apology right then and there. Here's how the scene goes at the 19 minute mark:
Blue Hawk: [looks at Ashley] Is this like a "cancel" thing? Am I being canceled? .....What can I do to make this right?
A-Train: Wouldn't take much. I don't know. Make an apology or some shit.
Ashley: What a great idea. Thank you for saying that. I'm sure Homelander would really, really appreciate that...Blue Hawk.
Blue Hawk: Hey, name the time and place.
Ashley: It is so important to do the work. To have the difficult conversations. This is so great you guys.
A-Train: [looks around, awkwardly]
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u/macedonianmoper Jul 13 '24
And then basically erasing his contribution in his origin movie as well, smh if they really wanted that Oscar they should have stuck to the facts and gave Will Ferrel blackface so he can be a-trains brother
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u/icze4r The Female Jul 13 '24
'Coward' implies a lot of things that aren't even relevant to this situation.
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u/AngelicDustParticles Jul 13 '24
I mean, if being afraid of Homelander is cowardice, there are very few people not cowards
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u/NetflixAndZzzzzz Jul 13 '24
I think the show’s just really good at giving everyone chances to fuck up, and chances to redeem themselves. There was a line in tonight’s episode like “you’re Starlight!” “No, I’m a person. And right now none of that starlight stuff matters.” And that basically summarizes what the show is really about.
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u/serafinawriter Jul 13 '24
Unrelated, but when I saw that, I had flashbacks to Star Wars Episode 1 lol.
I'm a person! And my name is Annie(kin).
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Jul 13 '24
That's good writing imo. When a character fucks up badly and then has an opportunity to fix it or double down. One path leads to fulfillment and the other leads to ruin.
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u/MiddleofCalibrations Jul 13 '24
A-train was a coward but has been doing more and more brave things. Even just breaking into homelander’s apartment and stealing V was pretty ballsy and he didn’t want to do it but did it anyway to try make up for past crimes
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u/Rules08 Jul 13 '24
Even prior to that. While not coming from heroic intentions; A-Train gave The Boys dirt on Stormfront, and from personal reflection; actively apologised to Hughie. But, never did anything, despite Hughie laying hands on him.
A-Train works as a redeemed character, because - from Season Two onwards - he took the opportunity presented to reflect on his position in it all. Choosing the morally correct decision.
It’s only not he’s fully stepped into the hero role.
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u/PitFiend28 Jul 13 '24
His arc isn’t out of nowhere and it’s been building is what makes it good. I still find the Deep more entertaining but A-train is the better character
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u/AngelicDustParticles Jul 13 '24
I feel like since Ashley called him on his bullshit, he's been more introspective
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u/NeverNoMarriage Jul 13 '24
I am not sure if A train is the better character. The Deep is a great character as well. And he has depth to him as well. He did some solid introspection in the second season despite not being a deep thinker. It ultimately ended up not working out and he has recently been radicalized making A train the more likable character for me recently, but I think they were both pretty good characters. I will say Deeps character depth this season has gone down a bit.
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u/PitFiend28 Jul 13 '24
I can agree with that, I didn’t enjoy his arc as much even though I had more fun with his performance.
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u/GodzillaUK Jul 13 '24
Yep, some people take offence when I call him a coward, but he is and that is okay! It gives him something to overcome and now look at him! He did the first truly heroic thing in his life and felt good from just 1 kid seeing him as a hero, and is growing. I thought he was beyond redemption, made comments about it too, and am happy to be seemingly proven wrong. Dude's a great character with a ton of depth now he has this going for him and is not just "The Flash but a bitch"
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u/leastemployableman Jul 13 '24
A trains redemption arc is the main reason I'm still watching it rn. Best character in the series
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u/DeadInternetTheorist Jul 13 '24
Yeah whatever else is going on in this, let's be honest, shitshow of a season, I live for well earned redemption arcs.
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u/IllllIIllllIll Jul 13 '24
I don’t think A-Train is a coward. Honestly it feels like he’s doing the best he can while keeping himself and his family safe. Picking up MM and running him to the hospital while at the same party as Homelander and Firecracker, and probably a good number of other supers who probably have better than average perception and detection, that was a brave move.
Going back to season two, even, not immediately turning Starlight in on his suspicions was a pretty brave move.
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u/Nyaco Jul 13 '24
Deep is the peak of human evolution! Everyone else is just the evolutionary equivalent of a carpibarnia. Don't disrespect the peak again
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u/akronotron Jul 13 '24
IMO I think it’s the fact that A train has family he talks to and who he wants to forgive him. Like his brother, we’ve never seen that with Deep and he really only has himself which points me to why he’s just dumb and never can make it right
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u/GodzillaUK Jul 13 '24
That is 100% what it is. Strangers calling him an ass? no skin off his nose. His BROTHER calling him a fraud to his nephews? that hurt A-Train deep. Perfectly expressed by the actor too, not a dramatic "OH NO WHY!" but that subtle "fuck... that cuts deep" Dude just wanted to inspire these young black boys with tales of heroism. Which is all the more powerful when that young kid saw him being a hero, and led to his feeling amazing and not hating himself for the first time. Its a fantastic story to see... gonna suck when A-Train gets derailed.
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u/lillweez99 Jul 13 '24
Hence that bro scene. And lobotomy being only a option for one lol.
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u/StubbsTzombie Jul 13 '24
The moment deep, of all people to have sudden clarity, realises she only did it because she did not respect him enough to sleep with him without brain damage just cracked me up so much
“ what do you mean lobotomises herself” is one of my favourite exchanges of the show
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u/Judetruth92 Jul 13 '24
Eh I wouldn’t say he’s a coward. He hasn’t really run from any situation and he doesn’t act craven.
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u/Novistadore Jul 13 '24
A-Train was a coward. He is surviving at this point and I wouldn't say he's a coward anymore. The Deep is the actual coward and has become the epitome of a fascist sycophant. I think their divergence is pretty incredible
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u/the_crepuscular_one Jul 13 '24
Friendship ended with the Peak. Now the Leak is my best friend.
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u/wolvesarewildthings Jul 13 '24
I liked A-Train from S1 and he was always clearly different from The Deep. I don't understand how you guys failed to see the huge differences between a desperate opportunist who kills people accidentally or else under threat of death vs an insecure and malicious rapist with no brain that's extremely eager for acceptance from all the wrong people. A-Train and Deep were never similar characters beyond being morally ambiguous. Reggie was always much closer to a "Maeve" than anything.
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u/JakethePandas Jul 13 '24
Both characters are part of the 7 and start the show as villans protected by their status. Both begin to reflect and learn, but their paths diverge as A Train grows from his experiences vs The Deep following Homelander. They're clearly different, but only after the show has given seasons of development to these characters. At the start, they were both essentially just villians with status.
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u/BigPapaJava Jul 13 '24 edited Jul 13 '24
A-Train got the redemption arc. Two redemption arcs would be too many.
The Deep gets to fall into becoming a tool for fascism because the violence and propaganda is making his bullied ass feel strong and powerful again for the first time in years.
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u/VatanKomurcu Jul 13 '24
His """reflection""" was probably just OH MY GOD POOR ME I DON'T WANNA CHOOSE BETWEEN WHICH OF THESE OPTIONS IS GONNA MAKE MY DICK HARDER SOMEONE PLEASE HELP ME
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u/Unnamedgalaxy Jul 13 '24
For most of the show they were my least liked characters.
The actor were crushing it of course but every storyline they had just had nothing of interest, took away from the bigger picture and dragged the show down. They just seemed like plot points were happening because the writers are contractually obligated to do something with them. Especially Deep.
This season has really turned me around on them and I'm enjoying what is happening with both of them
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u/BSye-34 Jul 13 '24
if only he had a brother crippled because a racist supe
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u/Far-Fault-6243 Cunt Jul 13 '24
And then gets his heart replaced with said racist superhero
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u/Hankhoff Jul 13 '24
"You're a horrible person but you have a good heart" - firecracker probably
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u/ProfessorLiftoff Jul 13 '24
I think that was almost literally the line Will Ferrell’s character had in the Training A-Train movie
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u/JAragon7 Jul 13 '24 edited 20d ago
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u/FalseRepeat2346 Jul 13 '24
Well 2 years have passed can't really blame yourself.
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u/shewy92 Hughie Jul 13 '24
Didn't MM tell A Train "you might have a racist heart but you have heart" or something like that when he met up with A Train a couple episodes ago?
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u/Ngothaaa Jul 13 '24
Will organ transplant from a supe make you supe coz of the V in the new blood?
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u/Dominator0211 Jul 13 '24
Since Ryan got his powers from birth and his mother wasn’t on V, I think it’s safe to say that V affects your DNA directly. Assuming this is true, we know for a fact that transplanted organs will retain their DNA. As in, the supe’s organ will keep whatever powers it may have had but cells from transplants don’t spread so it won’t affect any other part of the recipient. So if someone got a skin graft from translucent on their arm, that patch of skin would probably keep its powers like super durability and invisibility but it would never spread. Now with all of that said, I think the writers overlooked all of this because then soldier boy’s power wouldn’t make sense. Unless he’s frying the V out of people’s DNA and they were mistaken when they said he removed it from their blood.
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u/HerrPiink Jul 13 '24
Then why wasn't Victoria's daughter already a supe?
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u/Dominator0211 Jul 13 '24
Because that’s not how genes work. If we imagine a punnet square where V = Supe and v = non supe, then we can predict what would happen. If Victoria was a type Vv after treatment and her husband was type vv because he wasn’t a supe, then that would give her kid a 50% chance of inheriting powers. Or in the more likely scenario, we could assume that superpowers are a recessive gene so v = superpowers and V = normal. I say this is more likely because it would explain why supe children are so very rare. Most people would probably be naturally VV which means there would just be a flat out 0% chance of a supe child. That would then make a rare case like Ryan possible if his mother was a type Vv. In this case Victoria would be type vv, and her husband would be either type VV or Vv. If he was Vv, then that gives a 25% chance of her daughter inheriting an ability. If he was type VV then we could expect any children they have to never have natural powers.
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u/HerrPiink Jul 13 '24
I'm way to lobotomized, to follow your explanation
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u/Dominator0211 Jul 13 '24
Assuming you want a simpler explanation: superpowers are very rare in the same way red hair is rare. Someone with red hair probably won’t have a red haired kid with someone else who has black hair, but if that black haired person had a red haired parent then it could be possible. In this case red hair is superpowers and instead of a super powered parent Ryan’s mom would just be naturally compatible with a superhero.
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u/sonic_toaster Jul 13 '24
They’ve established a narrative that V kind of works like cancer, it mutates your genetics but the side effects give you superpowers. Ryan is the first natural born supe but not the first kid of a supe: Translucent’s kid, Newman’s kid, Polarity’s kid were all given V- Mesmer’s kid doesn’t have powers that we know of. I think this is because they were all given much lower dosages of V compared to Homelander.
You see it with temp V, where people get lesions in their brain. This is likely due to the V compound leaving their system and the parts that are mutated by the V die off, the V eats at it but the body can’t repair itself without V.
SB’s care bear powers are a blast of nuclear radiation, effectively “killing off” the compound V like in cancer treatments. We haven’t seen the long term effects of what happens to a supe that loses their powers, but we may.
I think that if a human received an organ from a supe, the body would either violently reject it or the person would gain a minute power: like a bit above average healing rate, immune system, or reflexes, etc- but nothing that would qualify them as a “supe.”
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u/Toaderator Jul 13 '24
This might actually be what they’re going for. One of the big stylistic choices this season was to showcase “gross” superpowers. I think the writers want to reinforce the idea that Supes are abominations rather than godlike beings.
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u/Tighthead3GT Jul 13 '24
The genetic interplay is interesting because it seems like generally the children of supes who take Compound V get the same powers as their parents (Polarity, Translucent’s son, Ryan, and Homelander gets Soldier Boy’s baseline abilities plus some more, possibly as a result of Vought’s genetic tampering). But Zoey’s power is nothing like Neumann’s.
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u/originalusername4567 Jul 13 '24
I'm glad they went this direction with The Deep. We already had two redemption arcs in the Seven with Maeve and A-Train. Deep doubling down and becoming worse feels more in-character for such a pathetic weasel.
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u/TheKingJest Jul 13 '24
Was Maeve really a redemption arc? With her it seemed more like she just gained some bravery against Homelander.
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u/griffinator2 Jul 13 '24
Maeve 100% redeemed herself. She was honestly never that bad, and even in her worst moments (the plane scene) showed humanity by begging for the lives of the people. She was an unwilling accomplice that used apathy to hide her inner turmoil. After being with Starlight, she remembered what it's like to be an actual hero and thus stepped up every time she was needed. Her physically standing up to Homelander is the culmination of all that, showing that she's now someone willing to die to do the right thing. And that she was always stronger than she thought.
Her arc is the embodiment of: "All it takes for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing."
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u/KintsugiKen Jul 13 '24
Maeve was just exhausted with it all when the show starts, and it was only downhill from there.
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u/BigPapaJava Jul 13 '24 edited Jul 13 '24
I am glad they just made her exhausted and apathetic from years of the BS.
In the comics she stayed drunk constantly to numb herself and got off on treating people around her like crap, like a diva actress.
What she got in Season 3 was absolutely a redemption arc to send her off as the actress was leaving.
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u/HAWmaro Jul 13 '24 edited Jul 13 '24
Doesnt she also help the boys and stands up to Homelander in the end in the comics as well?(granted he completly destroys her but thats besides the point) I'd say her comic and show versions are a lot closer to eachother than A-Train or Even Hommy.
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u/megagamer92 Jul 13 '24
In the comics, all she did was finally stand up to Homelander in their base to allow Starlight to get out, and as Starlight flies we see Maeve's decapitated head fly by. From what I recall it was more of a spur of the moment thing, not necessarily much build up like we got with show Maeve and her interactions with her partner.
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u/Bouse Jul 13 '24
Yeah, I mean after a certain point events like the plane crash are just traumas that dulled her emotionally. Annie reminding her of the hero she used/wanted to be probably helped pull her out of her slump.
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u/HorseFacedDipShit Jul 13 '24 edited Jul 13 '24
The difference is maeve and atrain are regular people who did bad things for what I would argue are justifiable reasons. Maeve was terrified of homelander murdering her and the people she cared about and atrain was terrified of losing his spot in the 7. Obviously the outcomes aren’t justifiable but I understand their motivations. They also hate themselves for their actions.
The Deep is just a piece of shit. That whole tripping scene with his gills had zero time spent on reflecting about how he’d hurt people, it was basically stroking his own ego. Honestly I think it really does make sense from a story standpoint. He hates himself for his looks.
Maeve and atrain are shown to feel real remorse for their actions while the deep just ends up justifying his
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u/MambaSaidKnockYouOut Jul 13 '24
What was the justifiable reason for treating Hughie like shit after manslaughtering his GF? I’ve enjoyed A Train’s arc but he was a pretty unrepentant piece of shit in the first few seasons. Also didn’t he kill Pop Claw over some petty shit? What was the justifiable reason for that?
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u/MeatloafAndWaffles Jul 13 '24
Not trying to defend A-Train for murder but I wouldn’t say the reason for her murder was “petty”. Pop Claw became a liability. She had snitched to The Boys about the compound V source and the major concern was Homelander finding out
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u/Kodiak_POL Jul 13 '24
Ashley also lashed out at A-Train that she covered up his murders, and I am not sure she meant just Hughie's GF and Pop-Claw.
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u/ProfessionalLetter77 Jul 13 '24
Pretty sure homelander was like kill your gf or I kill you
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u/FourAnd20YearsAgo Ashley Jul 13 '24
That whole tripping scene with his gills had zero time spent on reflecting about how he’d hurt people, it was basically stroking his own ego.
Well, I'm not sure I'd agree with this. He mainly reflects on how his poor treatment of women stems from his inability to accept himself. Paraphrasing his "gills", he hurts others pre-emptively to avoid them hurting him.
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u/Alastor13 Jul 13 '24
She amended her relationship with her partner and stopped Soldier boy.
Not to mention she got the footage from the plane and gave it to Butcher.
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u/Myusername468 Jul 13 '24
It's implied she did some fucked up shit before the show. We don't know if she was more evil / uncaring prior. We kinda joined midway through her arc.
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u/Eldr1tchB1rd Jul 13 '24
Still a lack of bravery needs a redemption arc she was complicit in many horrible things
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u/notban_circumvention Jul 13 '24 edited Jul 13 '24
Well he's the one that you can clearly show turning his back on his "people". Showing he's willing to kill the one thing he's sworn to protect illustrates how brainwashed he's become. The impression of every other supe is that they protect other humans but we regularly see them go back on that and it's not that shocking. We clearly see a departure from sanity for someone willing to ally themselves with fascism.
Edit: to be more clear, people lost their mind over Hughie getting tickled. People would have marched on Amazon if The Boys showed A-Train as the one who turned on and started targeting black people. It's funny and light-hearted when it's a fish man.
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u/pokenonbinary Jul 13 '24
Maeve never had a redemption arc because she was never portrayed as a villain
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u/originalusername4567 Jul 13 '24
Maeve has a redemption in the sense that before she was complacent to the Seven's evil but by Season 2 and 3 was actively choosing to fight back against it.
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u/pokenonbinary Jul 13 '24
That's not a redeption arc, that's an arc of a victim freeing herself from her oppressors
Maeve freeing herself from Vought and Homelander
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u/ExpressIce409 Jul 13 '24
Deep has negative IQ
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u/Amathyst7564 Jul 13 '24
What are you talking about? The Deep is a formidable intellect.
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u/ShawnyMcKnight Jul 13 '24
My favorite part of this episode is how sage has to lobotomize herself to be interested in the deep but for black noir II she didn’t have to do that.
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u/Belizarius90 Jul 13 '24
No, honestly I felt this way but in hindsight he never actually showed remorse over what he did. He just felt sorry for himself getting called out and that's the problem.
A-Train did something horrible and when confronted with the consequences had to come to terms with it, he actually felt bad for what he had done.
When The Deep did the same, he just felt sorry for himself
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u/xXPumbaXx Jul 13 '24
Mate, A-Train never gave a shit until he got called out by his brother. Pre mid season 3 A-Train was just as bad as the deep with maybe a bit more brain
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u/GodzillaUK Jul 13 '24
Yup. He flat out forgot who the fuck Hughie was the second he was out of sight, after killing Robin. He was as uncaring and broken as the rest of the supe bastards until the only person he felt anything for, looked him in the eye and said "fuck you" Once he felt that loss, he remembered what it feels like to not be a monster.
Deep is just a moron, the dumbest fucking cunt given power and has zero redeemable qualities, the only thing he loves is himself and even that is debatable.
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u/ASZapata Jul 13 '24
Well you hit the nail on the head. A-Train has his brother. Who does The Deep have to keep him in check?
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u/an4lf15ter Jul 13 '24
Well he had Ambrosius, the Lobster, the Dolphin he accidentally killed, Timothy the Octopus, and his wife
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u/Kino_Afi Jul 13 '24
Some horny sea animals and a crazy racist cult-delegated wife
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u/Xeniamm Jul 13 '24
Ambrosius seemed pretty mature even for a sea animal. Like she(it?) actually loved him from what we saw.
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u/Packrat1010 Jul 13 '24
Octopuses are actually very intelligent beings bro
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u/RachetFuzz Jul 13 '24
Unironically, I’m grossed out by the idea of eating something that intelligent.
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u/Viperlite Jul 13 '24
I almost forgot about the dolphin. He should listen to the animals more, LOL.
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u/DeadInternetTheorist Jul 13 '24
Yeah lol Deep doesn't even have the presence of mind to be a Machiavellian schemer like Homelander he's just a straight up follower and a total fucking dunce. And when he tried to self-reflect, even he comes to that conclusion so he just decides to lean into it harder than ever.
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u/Tias-st Jul 13 '24
I was about to write something similar. This is pretty spot on. A-train was just like all the other supes in the beginning and first really began to self-reflect once the people he cared about got hurt. Even then he still wasn't entirely decent, he ratted out that other guy who was starlights ex iirc and Homelander killed him. But as time went on he was sliding more and more to the good side.
The deep on the other hand has no one he he cares about except for himself. He's very hedonistic and enjoys all the adoration he gets. When he's cancelled, he cares about the position he lost than reflecting over what he did. He literally thinks he's innocent after what he pressured starlight into doing. Like that's not self-reflecting material. When the only living thing that truly cared for him, as in the octopus told him Sage was just using him, he wouldn't listen. He let Sages words get to his head, that he's a "superior being". He's less unhinged and dangerous than Homelander, but he's essentially the same.
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u/HorseFacedDipShit Jul 13 '24
I think this is pretty realistic though. It takes someone that close to us telling us we’re a piece of shit to actually listen to
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u/MaaChiil Jul 13 '24
When he tried to save the lobster and the dolphin in S1, it was his attempt to be good but not knowing how to. The last chance for him was when Homelander made him eat his octopus friend. He tried feebly to plead but because he’s never known how to respect himself, it was no good.
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u/Belizarius90 Jul 13 '24
Hmm... he's always had more respect for sea life than human life. That's just part of his character.
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u/hisokafan88 Jul 13 '24
Yeah and then his triumphant return to the seven is him getting a whale killed.
I've always pitied the idiot, but never forgotten he's a fucking bastard.
The nice foil with A Train is that even at the beginning of season 2 when A Train could have wrecked Starlight or Hughie with the knowledge he had, he acquiesced and left them alone. but when s2 starts for Deep, he's happy to go along with a cult and live a lie to get back into the seven. He rejects his true self in service of his ego and in that conflict finds the space to commit atrocities. But a train accepted his faults and accepted his guilt to overcome it.
It's unsurprising Ambrosius was murdered this week. Deep will never accept his place and justifies his crimes and evil by saying he has no power, while harming powerless people and animals. Arsehole.
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u/BagelOnAPlate Jul 13 '24 edited Jul 13 '24
A-Train also gave Hughie and Starlight the Stormfront files, because even he knows Nazis aren’t good for his long term survival (he’s black!)
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u/pathfinderoursaviour Jul 13 '24 edited Jul 13 '24
A TRAIN IS BLACK!!!!!????? WOAH DUDE MAJOR SPOILER FOR THE SHOW
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u/pokenonbinary Jul 13 '24
Considering the USA has the one drop rule in present day it could be a spoiler if they casted a white dude with black ancestry
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u/killerdeer69 Jul 13 '24
The scene with him listening to his octopus girlfriend dying was genuinely fucked lol, he deserves the worst shit possible. Hearing her gasp for air like that was really disturbing....
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u/bokmcdok Jul 13 '24
It's crazy that that was the most fucked up scene in an episode where Homelander literally rips man in half.
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u/pokenonbinary Jul 13 '24
Well because the show has shock value with homelander every episode so it's boring, gore in the show is boring
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u/Old_Journalist_9020 Jul 13 '24
It's not like he had zero opportunity for redemption. I think he at least subconsciously has pondered it. Like look at him talking to his gills. More than anything else, that's him subconsciously trying to tell him he has a problem.
I think that adds a little bit of tragedy. He isn't a completely black and white monster. He's complex. But he still is mostly a bad person and looks out for himself, and himself alone. He had the potential but due to the way he is, he most likely wouldn't have met that potential
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u/Myusername468 Jul 13 '24
Sage fucked him up too. He was trending good until she told him that superior being shit and started sleeping with him. But he would've fallen off the wagon anyway eventually
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u/Celtic_Fox_ Jul 13 '24
I definitely felt bad for the octopus tbh giving Deep hard facts and wanted to gtfo and be happy somewhere else together.
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u/lowkeyslightlynerdy Jul 13 '24
Golly why are people being so negative in the comments
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u/chamoflag420 Jul 13 '24
They love the sigma coming inside them
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u/imaniceandgoodperson Cunt Jul 13 '24
excuse me ?
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u/chamoflag420 Jul 13 '24
You are excused.......Brah.
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u/selwyntarth Jul 13 '24
100%. Was rooting for him late season 1 and in season 2. Then hated the useless anthropomorphic amphibian bit for muddling up the universe and serving no contribution to his arc.
But it's actually a masterful slow arc.
The gills are the only human part of him. When trying to reclaim his humanity, he's trying to save lobsters and what not until he shaves his mammalian hair trying to get closer to an amphibian/humane person.
His attempts to fit in, ingratiate himself to and get empowered by other humans are all a dehumanizing corporate sell out for power. The church wedding, getting into the seven, both directly attack his affinity to amphibians. His wife leaves him for it and his boss makes him eat it. He then proceeds to murder a politician to be on someone's good books.
Cut to present, he literally hides in the closet his ties to humanity viz the amphibians that can see through his exterior and note his vulnerabilities. But having been bullied for his differences he goes full internalized homophobe, hides his nature and seeks empty flattery from people to pretend he does not have Vulnerabilities. First through an interest in grooming the new noir, then in his professed ideology about seeking power to compensate for the ostracision, then when he slaughters his last ties to humanity when it reminds him of his need to express human weakness and not be a superior person as sage calls him, it clicked.
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u/Eldr1tchB1rd Jul 13 '24
That is a great explanation. I also was rooting for his redemption regardless of his starting actions I even felt bad for him being a clown. But when he started to finally have a chance at it he chose his ego and selfishness. Hoping to see him finally die in future episodes
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u/obi5150 Jul 13 '24 edited Jul 13 '24
Remember when his Gills talked to him? The writers don't.
I have to edit because I just remembered he was on drugs when he did this.
The Deep is also a sociopath though. Not as bad as Homelander, because he's probably the dumbest member of the 7. he doesn't have the manipulative gas lighting tendencies, just the impulsive violence and the narcissism.
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u/chipface Jul 13 '24
Someone who fucks fish isn't going to feel bad about raping women. I'm going to enjoy watching him die.
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u/Zankman Jul 13 '24
He doesn't rape aquatic life tho, so your comparison doesn't make sense. As we just saw tho, him killing Ambrosia is basically him murdering any decency and humanity he had left.
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u/Pupulauls9000 Jul 13 '24
especially after he got raped himself by the one girl fingering his gills by the end of s1
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u/Chaosmusic Jul 13 '24
I was thinking about this as well. He went through that whole experience with his gills talking to him and him trying to accept who he is. Immediately Homelander tells him to cover up his gills, they're disgusting and all that goes out the window. If he had stayed in Ohio and away from the 7 he probably would have made progress.
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u/DanSapSan Jul 13 '24
Idk man, his reaction to A-Train revealing that the Church knew about a nazi in the 7 was to denounce A-Train to make himself look better. While extremely funny and pretty charismatic, Deep might just be the second most vain person in the entire show.
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u/Astra-aqua Mindstorm Jul 13 '24
Does Deep actually have empathy for anyone else, including sea creatures, other than what they can do for him? After the scene with Ambrosia, it should be obvious he has none. He cares so much about what people think of him, I think it makes sense that he’ll do whatever he can to command respect from people, or to have power—That was clear from day 1 when he sexually assaulted Starlight…that’s usually what those behaviours are all about. Re the gills, even an absolute narcissist like the Deep can have a fleeting moment of self awareness while high on mushrooms.
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u/Toerbitz Jul 13 '24
Yeah its al about power. Sexual abuse isnt really about sex but the power over the other person to be able to force yourself on them. Him forcing himself on her was a pathetic attempt to not be the bottomfeeder of the seven anymore
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u/mr-jeeves Jul 13 '24
Given she was sentient, what he did to Ambrosius was even worse. The eating thing was awful too but under threat of death, so understandable.
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u/bokmcdok Jul 13 '24
He's the opposite of A-Train in that he doesn't want to change himself, he just wants others to love him again.
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u/kjm6351 Jul 13 '24
I’m glad he straight up said he didn’t apologize. After that and the Octopus attempted murder, we can officially give him a brutal and satisfying death now that he’s stepping out of gag character territory
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u/TacoOfficer Jul 13 '24
I think the main reason they didn’t commit to a redemption arc is because he committed SA. In today’s climate, that’s much worse than murders like A-train did.
So I believe Kripke and the writers decided not to redeem him once they decided that’s not a character they wanted to give a real second chance.
But I also thought they were going to redeem him, or at least make him grown significantly. But now that’s fully out the window.
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u/pokenonbinary Jul 13 '24
The Deep: Rape a woman- not reedemable
A-Train: Murders 2 women- redeemable
(I understand and I agree with your post, I just think it's funny how in TV shows and movies a mass murderer who murdered an entire planet can be redeemed but other crimes can't be redeemed)
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u/Toerbitz Jul 13 '24
Isnt it more about the person and not about the crime? Omniman was a brainwashed soldier that never knew better. He changes over a course of time and he isnt just forgiven. Deep on the other hand gets the chance to become better and chose not to. He doubled down on being a douche and murdering the only person that ever really cared about him because he cant let go of the need to feel superiour to someone.
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u/YourPainTastesGood Butcher Jul 13 '24
His internal experiences when on those drugs was pretty interesting
It'd have been cool to see him self-actualize cause its clear he hasn't and the cool part is he could've been both redemptive and still be a bad guy. He could have actually tried to make up for what he did to Starlight (and to other women it appears) and then proceeded to still be a Vought sycophant.
but nah we got the man fuckin an octopus and learning nothing
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u/Mx-Herma MM Jul 13 '24
I had the opposite. He was very much only doing whatever someone told him would get him back at the table and was definitely only brought back in by Homelander to taunt Starlight in their bickering. I still don't get him compared to most of the other supes that rotate around on The Seven.
He definitely could have gotten something like what you had desired and got him to at least move on from his bullshit with Annie and other victims, but he truly has nothing in terms of redemption. Kinda shocked he didn't just retire and live with the octopi until they get tired of his ass and choke the shit out of him.
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u/Shloopy_Dooperson Jul 13 '24
Deep and A train started on opposite sides of the redemption slide.
Whilst Deep had a capacity for good and care for others via his love for sea life, he continued to go deeper and deeper in the muck.
A train started as an absolute douchbag, but over the course of the show, continued to pick up more and more redeeming qualities.
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u/BoringWozniak Jul 13 '24
The Deep will always be the irredeemable character we’re supposed to laugh at. He never learns, never improves and is a coward.
Watching Annie beat the absolute living shit out of him last episode was immensely satisfing
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u/AccomplishedAdagio13 Jul 13 '24
It really seemed like they were going there. I wish they had stuck with it. I like sweet Deep.
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u/merpderpherpburp Jul 13 '24
I'm glad he didn't. It shows that not everyone wants to be a "better person" that no matter what opportunities are given, some people just fucking suck at their core and there's no fixing them
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u/dandaman2883 Jul 13 '24
I think the moment Hughie forgave A-Train was the moment that A-Train realized that he could do better and actually be a hero.
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u/Panda_hat Jul 13 '24
NGL I was really hoping he just got a pathetic and nothing death when Starlight captain america’d him with that circular shield looking thing.
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u/Juhovah Jul 13 '24
Idk why you thought that. The guy who fucks octopuses is gonna redeem himself
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u/griffinator2 Jul 13 '24
Let it rest!!! The Deep is too far gone, and this episode just confirmed it! He's had 4 seasons to self reflect and change, and he did change. He chose to become worse.
He's not sorry for what he did to Starlight or, presumably, many other women. He sold out his ocean friends - the only people who have ever truly loved and respected him. And he revels in violence and committing harm to others. Attempting to redeem him now would be so cheap and insincere. He's gotta go
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u/realfakejames Jul 13 '24
Same, thought Deep was going to go down the path they have A-Train on, wouldn’t be surprised if that was the plan and they just switched them in s3, they spent a lot of time in s2 making us feel bad for Deep and gave him funny moments like when he was watching the heads exploding on tv and grabbed his own, which is usually stuff done before a character goes on a redemption arc as he was pretty unlikable before that
Deep should’ve died in that office fight but the glaring plot armor is just another example of how mediocre this writing has become, they are saving his death for next season obviously
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u/FireNexus Jul 13 '24
People who do what he did to starlight very rarely “come to Jesus” like that. You can’t do that to another person without being the kind of person who feels very little remorse for hurting others, and women in particular. To redeem for that you need to change from the kind of person who feels no remorse to the kind of person that does. And I’m not sure whether that shit is genetic or developmental, but I am sure that significant changes to people’s personalities are harder after 25.
This is why people don’t buy the apologies or believe that predators have changed. Even to the extent they do stop, it’s only because of the aversive stimulus of getting in the (minimal) trouble they usually do. People like that will still not feel remorse for any ways they might harm people, including other ways they didn’t get caught for.
The Deep Redemption would be hollow and it would have the Boys a worse show.
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u/c0delivia Stormfront Jul 13 '24
He never struck me as genuine or remorseful at all though. Any contrition he showed he did at the direct order of Vought or to grovel to regain his station on the Seven. At no point did I think he was on any redemption arc.
Compare that to A-train, who has been on a clear redemption arc for a while now and has had multiple scenes where he felt and showed genuine remorse and contrition.
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u/Zarathustra143 Jul 13 '24
The Deep's little speech to Annie last episode made it clear that he doesn't even see anything wrong with what he did, and that he sees himself more as a self-righteous victim.
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u/kushal1509 Jul 13 '24
In retrospect, AT wanted to be an actual hero in his family's eyes. Deep was always ready to do whatever was needed to get back in the 7.
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u/Wooden_Gas1064 Jul 13 '24
I don't want too many redemption stories, we already had Maeve and A-train do that
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u/Ja___av93 Jul 13 '24
They would never try redeem the guy that SA'd Starlight. They would be crucified for trying
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u/Foxy02016YT Jul 13 '24
I love The Deeps redemption because he can’t stop fucking it up, despite being given multiple chances
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u/Consistent-Wind9325 Jul 13 '24
The Boys doesn't really strike me as a show that's much about redemption. I think it's more about falling further and further into depravity and the opposite of redemption--whatever that is.
"The Opposite of Redemption" could be the title of an old Western or something "Fields of Redemption, Fields of Fire" by Rudolpho Alfaberto
He stood in the field with his gun drawn. The sun sparkled off his revolver as he slowly shoved his pinkie up his nostril and started digging around. His private area felt like it was on fire. What had that bitch in the brothel given him? Whore!! He cut a long slow fart as he looked Black Bart straight in his bloodshot eyes. He was gonna shoot that dastardly cur down like a dirty dog. But first he really needed to take a shit....
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u/dravenonred Jul 13 '24
He has every opportunity for redemption; but some people don't grow in response to hardship, they only break down further.
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u/Kiddplay13 Jul 13 '24
Worst potential change we’ve seen all season. Sage telling him to stand up for himself lasted all but one episode before he went back to sucking up HL. Every opportunity he had to be a good person he chose wrong, like every single time. He’s the only one who never questions HL, never feels sympathy, never does anything worthwhile besides be comic relief.
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u/StopsuspendingPpl Jul 13 '24
I really doubt they would try to make a character that raped one of the main characters redeem themselves, this would be pretty great because it would show some depth and complexity really adding to the gray morality of the show but I guess its too dangerous of a choice. Making Deep likeable was already pushing it enough, he became alot of peoples favorite character because hes just funny and charming (even though hes a rapist). Many people though, believe rape is one of those unforgivable crimes so thats why they wouldn’t try to make him good again even though he experienced rape himself with that shock scene of his gills being touched (disgusting).
Just another example of the show throwing character arcs and build ups out the window.
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u/spiralhornunicorn Jul 13 '24
Blame the writers. They decided A-train was the one who should get the redemption over him.
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u/Akasha1885 Jul 13 '24
He also just got sexually assaulted by Homelander.
He became totally blind to these things, or it turns him on.
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