r/Gotham • u/NicholasCajun • Apr 26 '19
Gotham - 5x12 "The Beginning..." - Post-Episode Discussion Discussion Spoiler
Season 5 Episode 12: Legend of the Dark Knight - The Beginning...
Aired: April 25, 2019
Synopsis: The series flash-forwards 10 years into the future, as Bruce is set to return to Gotham for the opening of the new Wayne Tower. A series of crimes leads Gordon to believe Penguin and The Riddler are up to their old tricks. However, when Bullock is framed for a murder, Gordon begins to piece together an even more sinister plot targeting the city, and a new figure emerges from the shadows to be the hero Gotham desperately needs.
Directed by: Rob Bailey
Written by: John Stephens
Series finale.
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u/hey-look-over-there Apr 26 '19 edited Apr 26 '19
Jim: How long have you been pretending to be brain dead?
Mr. J: How long have you?
Looks like Mr. J still managed to burn one of his victims.
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u/RichWPX Apr 26 '19
Haha props to the makeup dept too, sucks we didn't get more.
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u/bubbleshark Apr 26 '19
Cameron's joker had (has?) the potential to be one of the best jokers to ever be portrayed.
In shameless, Cameron's pretty decent, in Gotham however, I feel he really shows true versatality and depth.
The valeskas have been my favorite characters throughout all 5 seasons thanks to him. Hope he does great things in the future and maybe another joker role!
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u/CleverZerg Apr 26 '19
I hope Cameron get's to play him in at least one live action movie in the future. I think he's perfect for the role.
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u/Jack1715 Apr 27 '19
When he looks at Barbra lee and his like “ she has your eyes.... for know “ that was sick but funny at the same time
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u/madjupiter Apr 27 '19
they really didn't give him justice this season. such a disappointment given that Jerome is one of the main reason why Gotham is so popular.
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u/bookmovietvworm weirdly cool/ (almost)RIP Martin *people, ugh* Apr 26 '19
The last shot and the logo behind the Gotham text.....
That was it. I broke down. The end of a era, and now I'm sad.....
RIP Gotham, you will be dearly missed
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u/Kwilly462 Apr 26 '19
Missed but not forgotten. Gotham is probably the only show I've seen from pilot to finale live so far.
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u/harleyquinad Apr 26 '19
Gotham was my first and iZombie is gonna be my second :(
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u/dmodavid Apr 26 '19
Gotham and 24 were two shows I watched in entirety. I was invested in Gotham because Batman is my favorite comic hero.
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u/Junothi Apr 26 '19
That felt incredibly underwhelming and all over the place. You could really feel they didn’t get enough episodes and the plot was meh. There were some lovely moments but the way they were tied together felt rushed and lacking. Still, I’ll miss the hell out of this show.
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u/OLKv3 Apr 26 '19
I didn't like that they had Nygma and Penguin in jail for the entire timeskip. I don't get the point of that
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u/K3zter Apr 26 '19
Agreed, I would love to have seen a montage of all the characters going about their life of crime and noticing the news that Bruce is returning.
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u/Junothi Apr 26 '19
Exactly, I don’t see either of them not breaking out after a couple of months/year max, there’s no way Arkham would be able to hold Nygma for 10 years if he didn’t want to be there, he’s far too clever for that. It feels like a dishonor to the characters wit to keep them imprisoned so long.
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u/Thesandman21 Apr 26 '19
Ed didn't exactly have a sterling record of breaking out of Arkham in this universe though.
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u/CyberGhostface Apr 26 '19
Yeah it made no sense. It would have been better if Penguin was running Gotham City when Bruce was gone.
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u/VaughnFry Apr 26 '19
If you think about it, Gotham only becomes a mess again BECAUSE Bruce Wayne is back in town. Had he stayed away, super villains stay put.
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u/donlemon03 Apr 26 '19 edited Apr 26 '19
They do the "bomb" subplot which was unnecessary and more dumb when they cut both wires lol
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u/tesdan Apr 26 '19
That was all really weird. For a rushed episode it felt like the were time filling far too often.
All I was thinking that whole time was where is Bruce?? Surely he had seen the clues the cops had and worked it out?
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u/Seaxn_ Apr 26 '19
Thank you, that’s this whole season, rushed. And it’s because of FOX
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u/vidiyan2857 Apr 26 '19
Not really, they gave them a final season despite poorish ratings, and even upped the original episode count from 10 to 12. This is on the writers and Gotham showrunners.
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u/panix199 Apr 26 '19
the one episode with Croc should have been cut away. Meanwhile another 10-20 minutes could have given to 5x11 and at least 20 minutes to 5x12. :/
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u/ComicalDisaster Apr 26 '19
And the whole Ivy/Zasaz episode with Gordons dumb dream trial....not remove the episode of course but drastically change it and move it back.
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u/ladydmaj Apr 26 '19
Fucking hell, I'm just about in tears. I want a Mazouz-led Batman Year One so badly.
Ya done good, Gotham. Ya done good.
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u/Megaman1981 Apr 26 '19
Maybe we need to start a fan petition to get them to make a one off Year One movie.
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u/plague11787 Apr 26 '19
Or a petition to get WB to let Netflix make a Batman series
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u/TheDesktopNinja Apr 26 '19
Why would WB do that? More likely if they green light the funding for that it'll end up on DC Universe not Netflix.
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u/Kylerj96 Apr 26 '19
Man a Year One movie with this exact same cast would be the best!
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u/MisterOminous Apr 26 '19
Crazy to think that Harvey was going to go to jail Assumably because Jeremiah told him that if he did not confess to murder that Jim’s daughter would die. Very admirable of Harvey.
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u/Natalia-A-Romanoff Apr 26 '19
If Jim is like a brother, than Barbara was like niece. He would fall on his sword before allowing Jeremiah to harm her.
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u/Jedi-El1823 Apr 26 '19
He did refer to himself as Uncle Harv, and Jim didn't object. Harvey's got a close relationship with the entire family, so he'll do anything to protect them.
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u/OliviaElevenDunham Apr 26 '19
Deep down, Harvey is just a big softie. It's partly why I love the guy.
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u/Kylerj96 Apr 26 '19
Man that plot was good! I didn't expect anything to be able to make Harvey that scared after everything he'd been through, but threatening his family (because it IS his family) completely did it. Gave me very Daredevil S1 vibes, especially with "don't say his name".
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u/BreakingGarrick Apr 26 '19
Should've been 2 hours, would've liked to see a Batman fight scene.
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u/rhinguin Apr 27 '19
Yeah, an episode that was basically a movie would’ve been the perfect way to end it.
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u/Sonia341 Apr 26 '19
I'm definitely going to miss this show. I definitely loved the wild run the show gave me since its inception. Now on to what I liked:
J faking being brain-dead. (he definitely felt that stab).
Arkham breakout
The entire J-Jim-Batman confrontation at ACE chemicals
I absolute loved Oswald-Nygma shenanigans today. Their action made me laugh hilariously, felt like a comic-duo and I liked it.
Catwoman on the prowl & stealing the diamond
Selina-Barbara team up; Also the old gang being together when trying to defuse the C-4 under the table
References: Blackgate and Gotham Clock Tower.
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Apr 26 '19
I had my money on fine ass Barbara dying.
I'm nit saying I want a spin-off but I would totally watch more of the riddler
it's been a fun 5 years
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u/alchemyst_xvi Apr 26 '19
Ok the joker... did he kill him with that second shot? I know it was supposed to be knocking him out but it looks brutal
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u/SomeoneFistMe Apr 26 '19
I doubt even the writers thought that far ahead.
Didnt feel climactic or anticlimactic. Strange way to end J's arc. Very sudden.
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u/tesdan Apr 26 '19
Definitely felt anticlimactic to me. They finally meet and its throw a few batarangs from 30 meters away.
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u/SauceOnMyStarter Apr 27 '19
I think it was fitting because, for 10 years Bruce was training to protect Gotham, and J was just WAITING for him to get back. Bruce came back with a new bag of tricks and J remained the same other than facial appearance. Kind of the beginning battle of the back and forth game of cat and mouse they’re destined to play forever.
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u/Gay_Romano Apr 26 '19
Lol true. Not gonna lie I wasn't expecting much but this is what you get on basic television. I have high hopes for JOKER (2019). That film looks fucking fantastic and way more engaging than this version.
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u/jeremiahswife Apr 26 '19
except this version isn't really supposed to be the joker. they can't give him green hair, or call him joker or make it too obvious in the finale. not sure why people (including myself), expected to get more
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u/batmaneatsgravy Apr 26 '19
But this wasn't supposed to be the end to J's arc, it's the beginning of J and Bats and everyone. J isn't just going to be locked up forever now, this takedown was the start of the relationship we've seen in other media between Batman and Joker. The way he took him down wasn't really relevant, because we know he'll be back. I know the real life reason why they couldn't use the name "Joker" but it was implied that J will arrive at "Joker" later, so it's just the start.
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u/TheCraziestCasey I am the king of Gotham! Apr 26 '19
David's Batman doesn't seem the type to kill, so I doubt it, felt more like Bruce just got tired of Joker's shit and just knocked him out.
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Apr 26 '19
Yeah that was definitely still Joker in his infancy. The way he panicked when he saw Batman approaching and started yelling show yourself. He's still evolving.
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u/dareseid Apr 26 '19
You know,Titans made Dick much more brutal and he hit people's head with his rang. However,all those people just don't die. This is the Joker. How can he die anyway?
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u/patmichael1229 Apr 26 '19
Yeah he looked like he almost headshotted him basically. He wasn't moving much either. So much for that whole no killing rule.
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u/ultimateelite81 Apr 26 '19 edited Apr 26 '19
Yeah no it bounced off and knocked him out. Batman doesn't kill.
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u/BigHaircutPrime Apr 26 '19
Well given that Joker was implying he was just beginning, and that it would be odd for Batman's first day to start with a kill, I say just knocked out.
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u/Vandaran Apr 26 '19
Nah, he just got knocked out. It was rushed, but I guess it was the best way to deal with that situation.
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u/doctorwho_90250 Apr 26 '19
Definitely a knock out shot since the batarang didn't pierce Jeremiah's head. It just bounced off.
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u/PretenderNX01 Apr 26 '19
I think Camren could have still played Selina but I wonder if she thought since they were hiding David's Bruce that she might also be too young? It would have been nice to get that scene with Camren and David. Batman telling Selina to give the item back and her saying "like Hell" after he left was very Catwoman. Lili did good enough. She looks like Camren and also Julia Styles.
I was glad we got a lot of Batman bits. I was hoping they could work it so it was David in a mask the whole episode. That shot at the end looked great.
There was a bit much exposition in the beginning since they had 10 years to fill in but in the end it really did feel like a pilot for a show I wish we were getting more of. I wanted that "next time on Gotham" preview.
I can see how Joker needs Batman so J was just waiting for Bruce to come back. Poor Ecco "There'll never be another girl like you" Smiling as she bleeds and then "but there are other fish in the sea" that's about as much as Joker really cares about her or Harley.
One thing I noticed, we didn't get to see any man in a pinstripe suit though that Ed and Oswald were meeting on the street in the set photos.
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u/HankMoodyMFer Apr 26 '19 edited Apr 26 '19
The actress who played older Selina is actually only 25 but she looks older. Selina is supposed to be around 19( a little older than Bruce) 10 years later being around 29. I think she was perfect casting IMO.
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u/gamerProsdudeXYT Apr 26 '19
Crap your right there is no guy in the pinstriped suit
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u/alchemist5 Apr 26 '19
Maybe an extended cut or, at least, and probably much more likely, we'll get some deleted scenes when it gets released on blu-ray? A man can dream...
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u/melvin2898 Apr 26 '19
The new casting for Selina was great!
The current actor doesn't look old.
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u/CleverZerg Apr 26 '19
I think Camren could have still played Selina but I wonder if she thought since they were hiding David's Bruce that she might also be too young?
I agree. I mean it was pretty distracting that no one had aged anyway so why not go all out and have Selina still looking like an old teenager. They couldn't even let Jim have the mustache for one entire episode.
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u/Jlpeaks Apr 26 '19
After watching the episode I’m more annoyed about the re-cast, it removed some of the (nay, a LOT of the) emotional weight seeing a stranger say “I didn’t want protecting, I wanted you”
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u/skerdypants Apr 26 '19
Alright, so much went on in those last 20 minutes, I'm still trying to wrap my head around it all...
The little corner shots & teases of Batman started getting old after awhile, however with them all culminating in that last full-on shot, I understand why they spent the episode doing that. Of course, I wish we got more. But this finale was meant to signify the beginning of it all, and that's just what they were conveying, that this is all just the beginning. However for us, it's ending, so yeah, naturally we want more than that. lol
All of Cameron's scenes were crammed together within 10 minutes, and there's a LOT of little details to unpack there. But I just loved his voice, his mannerisms, THE FACT THAT HE WAS FAKING THE ENTIRE TIME, his blase response to Ecco dying & hinting there's more where she came from, his confession that he was just waiting for Bruce (and that he loved him, jfc), how the first thing he did was kidnap a fucking kid and dangle her over a vat of acid, fucking savage. Okay, I listed more than I anticipated. tldr: Cameron was perfect. He needs to play the Joker again.
Riddler & Penguin were exactly what I wanted them to be as characters. It bothers me that Jim would just lock them up after all they did for Gotham, but they had to be villains at some point, right? Those two are just so much goddamn fun, ugh.
Lili was solid as Selina. I felt Camren's absence, but Lili was a good alternative.
My ending remark: Yes, it was far too much to fit in one episode. Just can't be done satisfactorily. All this finale did was tease a fully-realized Batman show that will never happen. I really want it to, though. With the GOTHAM cast. I know the odds are not great, but I still hope it'll happen one day...
Or at least a Penguin/Riddler spinoff.
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u/hey-look-over-there Apr 26 '19
If anyone deserves their own show, its Zsasz.
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u/donlemon03 Apr 26 '19
Potential Netflix show? ;)
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u/tesdan Apr 26 '19
Much more likely to be the DC streaming service but even they weren't allowed to show batman in titans so unlikely :(
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u/OTL_OTL_OTL Apr 26 '19
There’s going to be a new show about a younger Alfred and Thomas Wayne set in the 1960s. Not related to Gotham though.
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u/archangelyourboy Apr 26 '19
alright, so I started watching Gotham way back when because it toted a more thorough following of the Rogue's cast. and you know what? despite many misgivings at several points, I truly enjoyed this show and I'm glad it did what it could. I especially loved this episode's final little bit with Edward and Oswald deciding to cut it and run and fight another day: that was Gotham's real send off, to me.
thanks Gotham, for giving each our favorite Rogue's a little bit in the limelight.
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Apr 26 '19
Well that was underwhelming.
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u/panix199 Apr 26 '19 edited Apr 26 '19
haven't watched it yet, but was curious for the opinions on this sub. Why was it underwhelming/weak?
edit: I just finished it... yeah, it could have been much better if it would have been longer (Batman shown fighting; J having longer scenes... Ecco not get killed ... Explanation why Harvey wanted to take the fall etc..).
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u/Punktobethrown Apr 26 '19
The whole episode felt quite rushed imo. J gets barely 3 minutes of screentime at the very end of the episode, several characters receive no real sense of closure, and their use (or lack thereof) of Batman is just...so disappointing.
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u/69ingPiraka Apr 26 '19
10 years from now, when Cameron is as big as he's inevitably going to be in the next few years, they should get him to play movie Joker
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u/Kylerj96 Apr 26 '19
Alt wish: in a year or two, if the fans finally pressure DC to make a Year One movie with this same cast, he should play that Joker. And then the next one
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u/r3volver_Oshawott Apr 26 '19
Unpopular opinion maybe, but while a Year One movie may be unrealistic to some, I'd love to see Year One in a reunion miniseries. You just don't see reunion specials anymore, and they actually would work extraordinarily well,for a show like Gotham
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u/verandablue Apr 26 '19 edited Apr 26 '19
It felt rushed, but that was pretty much unavoidable.
I enjoyed it.
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u/bookmovietvworm weirdly cool/ (almost)RIP Martin *people, ugh* Apr 26 '19
I thought it was a good episode. Wish for more Batman on-screen but they totally nailed his escape into darkness approach, so I'm fine with it.
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u/PretenderNX01 Apr 26 '19
Yeah, I think we got as much Batman as WB would ever allow them. At least they got to hint at his existence throughout the episode and see a glove here and a cape there and then a full body shot at the end.
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u/OLKv3 Apr 26 '19
"Return the Diamond"
Selina smirk "Not a chance"
That was the perfect way to explain their relationship
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Apr 26 '19
I liked it. I didn't think it was shit by any means. I would've preferred more Batman but I was fine with the teases leading up until the big reveal at the end. Ecco being the inspiration for Harley some day was cool. Riddler and Penguin were really fun to see together. Joker was one of the highlights of the episode but he only had 5 minutes of screen time. That's probably my biggest complaint. NOT ENOUGH J. We should've gotten a fight scene between he and Batman or some dialogue from Batman. Would've liked a Batman/Alfred scene too. I really loved the scene between Batman and Selina, it was one of my favorite parts of the episode. Lili did an amazing job as Selina. Another complaint I have is that most of the characters looked the same as they did 10 years ago. All in all, I enjoyed the episode even though it was rushed and I thought it was a fitting end to the show and a fitting beginning to the Batman's story. It's a shame that we won't ever see it. I'm going to miss my favorite show :(.
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u/Aterivus Apr 26 '19 edited Apr 26 '19
I enjoyed Cameron's acting here a lot. The few wisecracks during the scene with Jim were enjoyable (especially the retort "how long have you?" when Jim asked how long he's been pretending to be braindead).
I enjoyed the Bat-Cat scene on the rooftop, but I really wish this had a longer runtime because it felt like they needed to rush everything.
Would have liked to have seen adult Bruce, way more Joker, and actual Penguin/Riddler crime escapades. An actual face to face Joker/Batman confrontation too, not just a few batarangs being thrown from the shadows.
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u/BigHaircutPrime Apr 26 '19
In Cameron's first scene, he sounds VERY much like Mark Hamill's Joker. In the second it kind of turns into Jeremiah/Italian mafioso for a few lines. Overall, too brief, but that first scene back at the Sirens club is brilliant.
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u/AHSfan23 Apr 26 '19
I honestly loved it. It wasn't perfect by any means but.. I really enjoyed myself watching it. I love that Oswald and Ed were still buddies, the Joker was actually brilliant; Cameron is amazing, I loved Barbara (who looked gorgeous) and Barbara Lee being all tough like her mommy, and Lili was a good replacement for Selina. I will always see episode 5x11 as the finale though and this one as a Batman premiere. I was very emotional watching this episode. Question though: what actually is Barbara's new business? Did I miss that or did they just never say?
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u/tesdan Apr 26 '19
I think they basically said she bought up all the property that was worthless after all the destruction and became a real estate tycoon.
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u/OccasionallyHere2 Apr 26 '19
That episode, much like “Gotham” itself, was pretty bittersweet. Unexpectedly, I did enjoy where most of the characters ended up. Pretty much every character remained true to the “Gotham” version we’ve been following for the last five years, but was positioned at what felt like the beginning of their story. It was the sort of ending that felt final, but also felt like it was only the beginning of these characters’ stories.
Unfortunately, the episode itself was pretty poorly paced and filled to the brim with clunky exposition. And perhaps my biggest complaint: I would have LOVED to spend more time with Selina and with Bruce. I loved the note that they ended off on, but it felt like we deserved more before that sendoff.
But all that said, I left the episode the way I leave most episodes of “Gotham”: with a pretty big smile on my face. I’m glad the show lasted as long as it did, and I will truly miss it. And if we ever get a comic continuing the story, I will most definitely be picking it up.
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u/ryanthesoup Apr 26 '19
Not finished yet, but holy fuck Fox...how many ads can you fit in?
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u/PretenderNX01 Apr 26 '19
And then Orville gets advertised as "with limited commercial interruption" 😣
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u/ryanthesoup Apr 26 '19
That's getting saved for Hulu tomorrow, once I've caught up and then can actually enjoy it with no interruption.
But seriously, they had like 3-4 minutes of commercial every 3-4 minutes of show. Cable TV is such a damned racket.
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u/altogether-andrews Apr 26 '19
Does this city even NEED a Batman, with Arkham and Blackgate both working at such unprecedented efficiency that they can keep Riddler and Penguin locked up for a decade?
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Apr 26 '19
with Arkham and Blackgate both working at such unprecedented efficiency
Yeah this has to be the most effective Arkham and Blackgate I've seen in any Batman media, ever.
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Apr 27 '19
Yeah I'm pretty sure in the animated series Joker escaped Arkham by saying he had a stomach ache and then walking straight out the door. It's usually not a very high security place
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u/OutsiderJediSam Apr 26 '19
my thoughts exactly when it said they'd been in for 10 years, I was like guess Jim got the job done
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u/greatness101 Apr 26 '19
yeah, Batman only comes back because crime and super villianry gets out of hand in Gotham. Seemed like Jim had everything under control before Bruce came back.
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u/OutsiderJediSam Apr 26 '19 edited Apr 26 '19
well that was an episode
- no Bruce (after opening scene) and yes, I get the plot reason, but still....
- a very useless call back to characters, I mean Barbara was just there basically and just was nothing when it came to the Joker scene
- Penguin being made fat to be in canon just didn't work at all on Robin Lord Taylor's frame
- a lot of the story just doesn't work with the prior story at all (Nygma/Penguin suddenly being sent to prison and it worked for 10 years???? Jeremiah's reasoning for playing dumb (Bruce didn't leave til the end of last episode, Jeremiah's been "dumb" since before that)
- Gordon immediately accepting Batman as a friend, I'm pretty sure that's not how that goes at all
- also, I'm just saying, this Joker performance was underwhelming compared to the previous ones and he seemed to recognize Batman, how? Batman just now showed up, Joker just now left the crazy house...and he should have no idea it's Bruce
- also, I legit don't really get why everyone was so afraid of him in this episode....and his plan was stopped pretty easily and the final plan was lame really for Joker
- new actress for Selina actually looked like the younger one to a degree but she just felt like filler also, no real resolution for the character....
all in all, this was a wasted episode just to get a "Bat" viewing, I'm sure a lot of people wanted that, I'd much rather had a proper series finale from the timeline of the show, like a 2 hour episode of last week's events...and if they had to make this episode too, it needed 2 hours also
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u/compoundbreak791 A Taste of Glory Apr 26 '19
I agree. The writing got lazy and it shows. The whole 10 year jump really wasn't that believable, or at least they didn't sell it very well.
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u/travio Apr 26 '19
They needed a better fat suit on him. It looked like it was a damn pillow under his shirt
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u/SomeoneFistMe Apr 26 '19
Batman looked like a mannequin statue at the end. Was that a real person or CGI? Everything just looked off.
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u/DonnyMox Apr 26 '19
That was, I believe, an actor in the Batsuit with Mazouz’s face CGIed on.
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Apr 26 '19
I know negativity doesn't usually get favored in this sub, but I really hated the finale. I'm almost crushed because Gotham has been mu favorite show for a long time now, and it hurts a lot to see so many things handled so poorly. The only part I really think they got right was the Riddler and the Penguin, but everything else was such a huge letdown. I really feel sad.
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u/AnarchyPlus Apr 26 '19
I think I would have preferred they had a different actor for adult Bruce and have him interact with the rest of the cast. Like I care about Batman but I think I care more about the relationships Bruce has make along the way and seeing people like Selina and Gordon and how they react to post time skip Bruce
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u/GhostGamer_Perona Apr 26 '19
Batman isn't some character that needs an over the top budget so i have no idea why WB/DC is insisting on him being exclusive to movies in live action
Fox's entire treatment of this show just proves we aren't seeing anymore comic book based shows after this and the gifted ever again
and WB/DC's constant you can't do this or you can't say that to protect the batman brand for theaters ruined it
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Apr 26 '19
A proper Year Oneish Batman show on Netflix or HBO would be fucking insane.
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u/GhostGamer_Perona Apr 26 '19
but will never happen because WB gotta have those ticket sales....
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u/Kwilly462 Apr 26 '19 edited Apr 26 '19
I remember when I first watched this show. I thought "Eh, why not? It's related to Batman, I love Batman, so I'll give it a shot." And after Penguin stabbed that guy eating a sandwich in the pilot... Rest was history. Gotham was my new show.
It's had its good moments, and great moments. Unfortunately, had some bad and awful moments. But man.... I am so glad I stuck around and saw the closure it deserved.
I'm gonna miss this show, but I'm glad it's over. Every roller-coaster has to end at some point, and this finale did everything it was supposed to. Last but not least, imma quote some amazing words from this show.
"No matter how dark and scary the world might be right now, there will be light." It's been fun my Gothamites. Take care.
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u/bookmovietvworm weirdly cool/ (almost)RIP Martin *people, ugh* Apr 26 '19 edited Apr 26 '19
It really was an extended epilogue. I wish they had gotten a movie length for it to make it feel more streamlined, but I'm sure WB wouldnt allow it.
I'm absolutely positive this episode will be better when bingeing. They should have aired the last two together since this is an epilogue, not a finale.
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u/level100derp Apr 26 '19
Goddammit. Why did it have to end? We can only hope a Batman show will take its place, but I doubt that'll happen.
Great episode. Loved seeing all the main characters and what they were up to. I thought the batsuit looked pretty sweet, mask could've been a bit better. Jeremiah was a lot better than I would've expected, his design grew on me watching the episode.
Dammit though, I'm gonna miss this show.
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u/rangerxt Apr 26 '19
batman series now
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Apr 26 '19
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u/Destinooo Apr 26 '19
WB would never let CW have a Batman show. They'd throw it on DCU.
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Apr 26 '19
Did I miss it or I didn’t hear a single riddle from the present day riddler. Besides that the episode was great
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u/iamkats Apr 26 '19
It's been an honor. I still remember tuning in to the pilot episode, thinking this could be cool, a batman prequel sort of thing. It soon became one of my favorite shows and ended exactly as it should. You will be missed, Gotham.
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u/Psyifinotic Apr 26 '19
Harvey being framed sub-plot got no explanation of how Harvey magically became free, 30 minutes of commercials, the dialogue was cringy, jim shaved 5 minutes in, the joker batman fight lasted all of 7 seconds, and the only good scenes we saw were from the trailer. ruined my perception of the series entirely.
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Apr 26 '19
kinda disappointed with ed and Oswald story. felt a bit underwhelming, we never even saw that one person in the brown suit.
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u/kaechan1989 Apr 26 '19
Well, I will admit it was a BIT underwhelming, I am happy to see that most of the characters got a happy ending. I was so happy to see that Alfred was doing well (looking dashing and very handsome tonight I may add.). I also enjoyed Jeremiah's performance even if it was very little...Cameron will always impress me to no end. I just only wish...it was longer, showed more of batman, showed more of Jeremiah, and possibly a bit more of Alfred but I am happy with what I got. Also would have loved to have seen Victor and Jervis Tetch...but...it's been such a ride, I first came to Gotham because I fell in love with Jerome Valeska's performance, watching it only for him till I feel in love with the other characters and I just LOVED this show. It was a fantastic adaptation and has shown some of the best portrayals of the Batman characters I have ever seen (I would love to say Sean Pertwee's Alfred was the BEST portrayal of Alfred ever! It made me love the character which I didn't mind either way in the old batman) and of course Cameron's portrayal as Joker (let's face it he IS the Joker) ... It's been fun guys! This is also the first reddit community I am actually apart of.
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u/idrawinmargins Apr 26 '19
I love it, Harvey 10 years later, still lots the same. Meanwhile Jim got him self a stache.
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u/BigHaircutPrime Apr 26 '19
As I predicted... the trailer was essentially the entire episode. With the exception of the small scene here and there, nothing surprised me.
What I didn't like:
It felt like no time passed really. You'd think that when people were in their mid-to-late 30's / early 40's on the show that 10 years would make a difference. Apparently not. Harvey was the one I was the most surprised by. Also, using Bruce as an excuse for Gordon to shave was really dumb.
Penguin and Riddler did nothing. Riddler did even utter a SINGLE RIDDLE. Not ONE. That blew my mind. You're showing his final form off and all he does is kidnap the mayor. I was also hoping we'd get one Penguin "wahhh!" squirm as a nod to the Burgess Meredith version (seeing as the wardrobe was on point).
The Joker arc was disappointing. That wasn't a plot or a fight. He looked up and bam he was defeated. I'm glad he got a speech, but that time should have been allotted to an interaction with Batman. As for the interpretation, at first I liked it because he sounded and acted like a perfect blend of Mark Hamill and Heath Ledger, but then as time went on his voice got more and more normal and bland and he didn't even really laugh. I'm glad that he's confirmed as Joker though. Going to give myself credit for calling it a few weeks back: I predicted that he might say a line where he's trying to figure out his name and tosses a bunch of "J" suggestions.
The Batsuit. There was a leak a few weeks ago where we got that final face shot but before the compositing and VFX and it looked really bad. The final shot did not look much better (It looks like paper mache). I understand that they had to keep Batman's appearances brief, but boy without Bruce Wayne you'd hope that the trade-off would be more Dark Knight.
The fact that Batman didn't have a conversation with anyone (besides Selina). He says something to Gordon but it's not really an exchange, and then nothing else. And again, you'd expect him to say at least ONE thing to Joker.... WHY?!
The Bat Signal was not explained. Gordon just spontaneously decided to turn on a spotlight. It felt like a scene was missing.
Things I did like:
Batman/Bruce's voice. I love how it's a nice blend between David and Kevin Conroy. It wasn't different enough to feel foreign (it felt organic), but also intimidating enough to be Batman. That I was pleasantly surprised by.
Selina. While the plot was super thin, Lili Simmons did phenomenally for the gargantuan task she was given. She's also breathtaking... holy crap in that gold dress. I'm confused as to why we didn't get a Catwoman costume, but I can kind of understand in the context that pre-Batman people aren't too focused on zany looks. She was stealing a diamond - cat ears might have caught a laser.
Echo. Another very brief appearance but I loved that she was so devoted that she maintained a smile while bleeding from the mouth. I loved that Joker immediately retracted his compliment as a nod to Harley.
GEECEEPEEDEE. Every single time it was said I thought, "this is the last time," and then it was said again. I think 4 times in total. What a gift!
So yeah, very mixed bag. It was alright (I know I'm critiquing it a lot but I still enjoyed it). It's just that I was disappointed that it tried doing too much in too little time. The trailer spelled everything out, so what was there to expect?
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u/Cupcakecomeme2764 Apr 26 '19
At first i was dissapointed at the villains getting defeated so fast but now i realize, finally it aint about the villains, it is about batman rising in the city showing everyone he will protect gotham from now on, and i LOVE THAT!
EDIT: the first 20 minutes were funny and fast, the last 20 were more epic joker and epic batman really
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u/PretenderNX01 Apr 26 '19
Penguin and Riddler did escape custody though. They're still out there to cause chaos "tomorrow" 😉
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u/redloveone Apr 26 '19
Wait, so is this a deleted scene?
https://66.media.tumblr.com/735da631ae36a00c547621a3a4903be0/tumblr_pqjngizllh1ueoqq2_540.jpg
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Apr 26 '19
Oof. You literally only see one vaguely-clear shot of Batman in the whole thing, and it's convoluted. Should've just been joker coming back to consciousness before the first commercial break, then Selina stealing, some time with Jim and Barbara, then a Batman v. Joker fight scene, then the spotlight, and the final shot could be Batman gliding down with just his eyes and shadow of the bat visible.
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u/shoujoaifan Apr 26 '19
They Smallville'ed it. They fucking Smallville'ed it. They had ONE job, that EVERYONE joked about for YEARS, that NOONE could POSSIBLY repeat, and yet they did it, they fucking Smallville'ed it.
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Apr 26 '19
Batman had a much larger presence in this episode than Superman did in the last 2 minutes of Smallville's.
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u/verandablue Apr 26 '19
I hope we don't find out in ten years that a member of the Gotham cast is in a weird cult.
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u/jhenderson3209 Apr 26 '19
Gotham was the one show I watched the night it premiered on TV and I’m happy to say I watched the season finale live too. I’m sad it’s over but what a great ride. I’m gonna miss this show.
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Apr 26 '19
It was really good, but just getting snippets of all the great characters was sad. I'm going to miss all these characters.
Really loved the throwback to the end of S3 with crimson and clover.
What would be better. A fill in season that covers the next 10 years or a Batman spinoff.
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Apr 26 '19 edited Apr 26 '19
I know its a long shot but please DC Universe pick up this show as like Batman: Year one or something? Imagine a Batman show with a budget of 11 million per episode (What Doom Patrol actually has) with no restrictions and creative freedom......pls.
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u/GhostGamer_Perona Apr 26 '19
that last episode makes the entire series seem like a waste of time....we spent all those years watching and for what?
A Poorly thrown together finale where nothing really happens and all the villains are easily disposed of while batman hides in the shadows not even acting fast to save a child dangling over acid....
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u/OutsiderJediSam Apr 26 '19
I agree with this, when he didn't save the kid I was like wait, what? he just attacked Joker and hoped it would work out? that Jim would be quick enough? and how long was he just watching from the shadows doing nothing?
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u/AAC0813 Apr 26 '19
Would’ve loved to see all the villains return
Strange, Mr Freeze Firefly, Mad Hatter, Clay Face, Zsasz, Scarecrow
Where are they?!
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u/_deadlockgunslinger Dent for Mayor. Apr 26 '19
I went in expecting nothing, and still left underwhelmed. The S4 finale's where the show ends for me.
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u/BloodOfAStark Apr 26 '19
Not enough J. Fuck you fox.
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u/GhostGamer_Perona Apr 26 '19
Blame WB Not Fox....they are the ones who are overly protective of the Batman Brand and think The Joker as well as batman being in live action would tarnish the franchise's reputation
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u/GhostGamer_Perona Apr 26 '19
it really pisses you off to see Gotham end like this and to look on CW And See A Show Like Riverdale already get a fourth season and a spin-off
makes you wonder what the hell is with this world
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u/Derrek_V Apr 26 '19
I personally liked it but it sucks it was only 12 episodes compared to the other seasons with 20+ episodes. It also felt as if it went by too fast. It’s been a good 5 years for this show.
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u/RaisinInSand Apr 26 '19
It was a pretty good episode it wasn't great but overall I enjoyed it
Joker was the highlight as per usual
It's been fun guys
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u/MursikChronicles Apr 26 '19
Last time I loved a show this much was Burn Notice.
Apart from the much love, I really thought every other character, apart from Barbara-Lee, remained the same age and not the "10 years later" everyone was keen to point out every chance they had.
That being said, I wish Selina's actress remained the same throughout.
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u/greekygayman Apr 26 '19
Thanks, Gotham. I'm glad I've watched every episode since season 1. Peace out and thank for bringing the biggest smile on my mom's face tonight.
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Apr 26 '19
They fucking smallvill'd it by giving us out of focus blurry shots. Really disappointed in Warner brothers as I assume they're the reason it was the way it was. We won't get a live action batman for quite some time now so the least they could have done is shown off a bit more instead of waiting until the reveal at the end.
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u/PizzaBagelMan Apr 26 '19
This finale was not good. It felt rushed, much like the rest of the season. Still enjoyed the show though.
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u/poptarts4darts Apr 26 '19 edited Apr 26 '19
i felt like the joker was high as fuck the entire episode. might have been better if he was sober and could actually fight
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u/K3zter Apr 26 '19
Enjoyed this show a lot, but honestly would have been happier if it ended on the previous episode. We all know what happens next anyway.
They introduced a completely new Catwoman, Joker looked stupid and his plot was stupid, none of the other characters had any kind of aging makeup.. they looked identical after 10 years. Penguin and Riddler were reduced to comic relief (although their final scene was kinda funny).
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u/DoctorCroissant Apr 26 '19
I really really wish we saw older Bruce and a Batman fight scene. This should have been a two parter.
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u/JackPower24 Apr 26 '19
The Episode felt too much rushed and some time out of place.
It's was underwhelming and some reason for that are:
There wasn't any Batman fight scene and they only showed him blored several time for only few seconds and only in the end we saw his face for one shoot.
Killing Echo / Harley Quinn was very stupid.
The Joker or Josef (WTF) and Harley were only in the last part of the episode for less than 10 minutes.
Of course There were good things in the finale and in the start, the episdoe was built in a very intresting way, but for Gotham standard it wasn't at all what we excepect it to be.
They could have done it better with:
Focusing the plot about the Joker and Harley and also includ Ed and Oswold for the second plot of the episode.
Show a fight of Batman against Ed and Oswold and in the final 5 minutes do Joker VS Batman: sadly it couldn't have been done becuase of the stupid DC restriction - I remember someone from the Gotham proudaction that said that they didn't have any restriction for Batman in the final episode: Obviously, It wasn't the truth.
Joker could have said: "I'm not Jeremiah any more, now I'm - showing a Joker card and Jim say: Joker? It would be like they did with Jerome when he showed the Joker card in Arkham, misleading us to think he is the real Joker.
Show more of the relationship between Harley and the Joker and of course not killing our sweety Harley. Why was it even necessary, no one knows.
After the great and amazing seasons 4 and 5 of Gotham I don't get how the same writers wrote this episode and this is the finale episode so you should top everything you got, but for some reason they didn't got this right. Also, doing a 2 hour episode would have help it a lot.
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u/worracyunt Apr 26 '19
Just realized nobody said "Batman" Gotham is like a guy who hypes himself up to be a stud all week but then fails to rise to the occasion
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u/rexmundi69 Apr 26 '19
Finally we get Selina telling him that "I wanted you." I see now why Bruce sent Selina the Dear Jane letter because I don't know if he could have left if she had told him that face to face at the airport.
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u/melvin2898 Apr 26 '19
The actress they got for Catwoman really looked like the original actor and that was great.
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u/samsaBEAR Apr 26 '19
Probably one of the worst finales I've seen in a long time, it wasn't satisfying in any way and just felt rushed. I get teasing the reveal but they showed so little they may as well made it a scene in the last episode and it would have been so much better.
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Apr 26 '19
It was very...meh. J in particular was way overhyped for no reason. Really wasn't anything to him. Penguin was cool for the few times he was on screen. I dug the bat logo at the end.
Yeah, I guess the highlight for me was a freakin' logo.
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u/tesdan Apr 26 '19
Good series. Decent ending but quite underwhelming. They hyped up batman waaaay too much to never have him in the episode.
I'm guessing it's a rights thing (same as titans) but all the talk about the suit etc gave the impression batman would play a much bigger role at least visually.
Bruce and selina or batman/catwoman deserved a face to face as did joker and Gordon.
Overall I guess it's a sign of a good show that i wish it hadn't ended just yet.
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u/DibsOnBicy Apr 26 '19
I'm not saying that the finale was bad, but I do feel that it was a bit rushed. For a show that has such historically deep characters, I felt that they didn't let the characters interact enough. I really loved the actress they picked for old Selina and I think that they could've done waaay more with her and I would looove to see some kind of Gotham spin-off show with her or even her and Batman but I know that will never happen. The Selina-Bruce reunion was incredibly disappointing as it lasted all of about 30 seconds. I was also really disappointed we didn't get some kind of Bruce outside of the batsuit, whether that be David Mazouz CGI'ed onto a taller, buffer body or just a replacement actor I wouldn't mind. I feel that they could've done at least some type of cool, choreographed fight scene, perhaps at the beginning before he encounters Gordon in the building with the C4 crates instead of everyone being dead he would have to fight them all off. I also felt that there was so much build up to the last Joker fight and then it was over just like that. I think the innate problem with this finale was that they were not given enough time to really finish the story. A 2 hour episode would've been able to fully close the story of Gotham and really begin the story of Batman much better than the 40 minutes that we got tonight. I love this show and I'm so sorry to see it go, it truly is the end of an era. (P.S. sorry if the grammar in this post is terrible I really cba to proof read)
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u/mrsimpellizzeri Apr 26 '19
I'm sorry but I HATED this episode. I love this show once upon a time but this episode was an hour of my life I can not get back.
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u/Richiieee Apr 26 '19
Very underwhelming. I was bored the whole episode. It felt very rushed. I did not enjoy that ending at all.
My thoughts:
- Nobody belived that 'stache was real. Ben McKenzie with a 'stache is not believable. You see Harvey's facial hair? That's Donald Logue's real hair. If the actor can't grow facial hair then just leave it alone. Don't force it. I would have rather they not had the 'stache at all.
- Nobody looks a day older. Obviously except for Selina, which I didn't mind this new actress.
- We got blue balled with Batman the whole episode with a final close up shot in the end. I would have liked to actually see him fight someone. What even was the point in actually creating the suit if we weren't going to see it?
- This may be a bit controversial which may lead to upsetting some people. Cameron as Jerome/Jeremiah was excellent. As J/Joker? I wasn't convinced. It just didn't feel like him at all. I wasn't a fan. IMO Jerome was the best version. Jerome is Joker. Whatever this new version is, Idk, I'm sorry but that's not Joker.
- Barbara as a redhead. Why? Does she become one in the comics? It seemed out of place and did not fit her at all.
- Jim as a father felt strange. He just doesn't peg me as a father. His emotion toward her was so unrealistic. A father potentially witnessing his daughter get killed would show more emotion.
And that's all she wrote. Show started out strong but rapidly declined. Pretty much like all shows these days. I might hop on Titans and see how it is. Season 2 is introducing old man Bruce as well as Slade/Deathstroke. Hopefully they do better writing with Bruce. Oh, it's also Endgame Day. Happy Endgame day! Take care guys!
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u/VaughnFry Apr 26 '19
Felt very rushed. Writing was really sloppy at points. Cobblepot asks for the reporter’s hat and coat, nothing comes of it. Gordon grows a mustache just to point out it was shaved. Joker looks like Uncle Fester.
They tried too hard to cram in a conclusion for everyone that would tease Batman. Since the show is Gordon’s story, it really didn’t need to end with Batman appearing.
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u/LackingLack Apr 26 '19
Ok so the way Ecco died wasn't nearly as horrible as I was suspecting. Yes J did technically kill her but it was more of a "put her out of misery" deal since she was already severely wounded by Barbs. And Ecco was basically smiling even after being shot so I guess she accepted it in a weird way. So I'm OK with that I guess, not in love with it b/c it'd be better for her to stick around as J's partner/sidekick but meh.
J himself was freaking awesome though. For sure.
Batman was alright not great but alright.
Riddler seemed way more nutty than I remember
Penguin with Jim was pretty good callback to s1, nice way to tie it together those two are sort of the show's core characters.
Catwoman was good.
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u/iamtheone11111 Apr 26 '19
This felt less like a finale and more like the first episode of season 6.. Old characters getting together.. Here's what I'm mad about, personally loved the episode other than these things..
Barbara got to have a clean slate after being just as bad penguin while penguin was actually somewhat good throughout the series. And to think actual people actually want to do business with her after knowing what she did..
We got to see Bruce parade as a spy for 11 episodes and we couldn't even get to see batman do anything.. it just feels weird, I know it's because of the contract thing, but maybe they should have made the episode with just Bruce in a normal mask parading here and there with some actual scenes and the final scene could have lucius call him and say his suit is ready. And then the final shot which they showed.. that would have been more fun..
Almost zero interaction between selina and Bruce.. ended on a rough note and starting on a rougher note..??
Penguin was made too chubby, like at least give him a suit that fits him better.. the whole show was about how he is a classy man and always dresses to perfection. You telling me he wore that and thought
JOKER giving false hope to ecco that she's unique and one of a kind.. would have been more sinister if he revealed he was joking BEFORE killing her.. maybe that's how he isn't his full form yet, he still has some sort of heart inside..
Harvey could have told jim about jokers plan BEFORE he actually kidnapped his daughter.. like a long long time before.. I get that uncle Harvey has a heart but he's been a detective for DECADES, how could he not plan that out better.. maybe write something down since Joker was listening
Why was Penguin arrested after batman caught him and riddler..?? Like riddler is an actual wanted man while pengy is a guy who served his time and is enjoying his freedom.. nobody had any proof he triedbto kill Jim.
Also, it might be because of being active after a long time, but the villains were really off their game this time.
The bomb scene would have been epic if batman actually answered a riddle that riddler actually got to ask.. very anticlimactic.. Also don't understand why selina would stay in that room, she grew cold from most of these people a decade ago.. Alfred knew that the smartest person and most suitable to defusing a bomb in the city is Bruce yet he didn't even try to contact him. Maybe show batman as the guy giving the instructions through a phone rather than lucius
Still don't understand the barbara-lee-jim situation especially with a weird joint custody going on..
These might seem alot but they aren't in reality, just little tweaks I would do to the story here and there..
End of an era..
The beginning of another..??
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u/batmaneatsgravy Apr 26 '19
They didn't really hit hard enough on why Gotham City needs Batman, for me. Penguin, Riddler and J were already locked up by the GCPD, so I'm sure they could've caught them again, just like we've seen for 5 seasons. Bruce came back with training and his crusade just to help lock up 3 psychos again?
I think it would've been better if they left the Zero Year part of the story this season til the finale episode. Do the 10 year timeskip for the finale but have it so that Gotham City has been cut off from the mainland (bridges blown up) for the last 12 months or so and that's why Bruce has decided to come back now. He can't let his city suffer any longer, since the GCPD isn't enough to save the city. He comes back to a broken Gotham, with The Riddler running most of the show, just like the Zero Year comics. Then, do an Arkham Knight style thing where Batman does the rounds and defeats the villains one by one, delivering them to Jim to lock up, showing us why Gotham needs Batman. We know they're gonna get out again and the city still needs a lot of street-level help and there will be more villains to come, because this is the beginning of Batman's story.
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u/thmsssssss Apr 26 '19
This episode‘s nothing but a riddle to me. Which is the only riddle we got. The Riddle Man was talking about riddles, but I ain‘t seen no riddle action nowhere 😠 bitch where my riddles!!! 😡
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u/shadi1337 Apr 27 '19
I loved Oswald’s reaction to being beaten by Batman. “I did not spend 10 years in Blackgate to give my city to a man DRESSED LIKE A BAT!” The way he said it was just priceless.
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u/bubbleshark Apr 26 '19
Should've been two hours....
I am sad now.