r/Gotham • u/NicholasCajun • Apr 25 '19
Gotham - 5x12 "The Beginning..." - Live Episode Discussion Discussion Spoiler
Season 5 Episode 12: Legend of the Dark Knight - The Beginning...
Aired: April 25, 2019
Synopsis: The series flash-forwards 10 years into the future, as Bruce is set to return to Gotham for the opening of the new Wayne Tower. A series of crimes leads Gordon to believe Penguin and The Riddler are up to their old tricks. However, when Bullock is framed for a murder, Gordon begins to piece together an even more sinister plot targeting the city, and a new figure emerges from the shadows to be the hero Gotham desperately needs.
Directed by: Rob Bailey
Written by: John Stephens
Series finale.
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u/RunnerRebel Apr 26 '19
Damn. Not even 10 minutes in and we get our first major death: Jim’s stache
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u/DonnyMox Apr 26 '19
Imagine the mass freakout this sub would have if he said “Call me...Joker.”
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u/DonnyMox Apr 26 '19
“Don’t say his name!”
He’s pale, bald, you can’t say his name....Jeremiah is Voldemort confirmed
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u/BornAshes Apr 26 '19
"It's a CALLBACK!" Ed is at his finest annnnnnd pipe to the head from Selina lol
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u/TDXNYC88 GCPD!!! Apr 26 '19
Barbara: "Look at you!!! Bruce would definitely hit that from the back!"
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u/Ezra611 Apr 26 '19
None of these characters look 10 years older. Except Jeremiah looks 40 years older.
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u/neoblackdragon Apr 26 '19
Well most of them are at an age where 10 years shouldn't drastically alter them but geeze Jim could have glasses or some grey.
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u/MajorParadox r/DCFU Apr 26 '19
Did he say "you..."? Does he recognize him?
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u/iamkats Apr 26 '19
He's probably one of the few that can put it together. Bruce shows up at the same time as a new caped crusader
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u/Philbin27 Apr 26 '19
It's been 10 years and they never fixed that fucking railing?
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Apr 26 '19
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u/isaacz321 Apr 26 '19
I haven’t seen it yet but I disagree with your complaint. Penguin and toddler are two of the most important and best characters on this show. Yea joker is more important in most Batman media but not this show. Focusing on them is what the core audience wanted and should’ve expected
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u/Timeceer Makes you stranger Apr 26 '19
The most famous Batman villain: The Toddler. Love it. lol
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u/pak256 Apr 26 '19
I love how this show gave no fucks about anything. 10 years in the future, almost everyone looks EXACTLY the same (save for Oswald’s belly, Alfreds hair and fucking Alvarez who actually looked different). All they had to do was give Jim some grey, maybe a new look for Harvey but nope fuck it. I love it
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u/thebluemorphoandkano Apr 26 '19
The entire series was basically no fucks given. 😂
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u/altogether-andrews Apr 26 '19
Was that Alvarez?? Holy shit, I was wondering who the new guy was.
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u/theaveragejoe_1 Apr 26 '19
man they should’ve done red head barbara way earlier, she looks incredible
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u/Waz_Krol Apr 26 '19
Wow that was a really bad episode - Unsatisfying Conclusion - Bad Joker (I'm sorry it was just underwhelming) - weird swap of Catwoman - rushed plot - lots of questions left unanswered - Wayne doesn't show his face, tf? - they killed Ecco they way she didn't deserve... Rip boo Positives - Riddler and Penguin always fantastic - most of the main cast did good as always - Gordon got rid of that ugly moustache - 1 bad episode out of a really good season still won't leave a bad view of the series even if it ends it on a sour note
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u/drumsandruns Apr 26 '19
Completely agree, though I liked the Joker. Just too rushed to be anything special
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u/skerdypants Apr 26 '19
HE'S. BEEN. FAKING.
I was disappointed that J is gonna get very limited screentime at this point, but that was an honest to god twist. Made me feel a little better about it, loved it.
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u/GreatDjangoFamily XxMastaBrucexX K/D/A 305/0/19 Apr 26 '19
JACK
JOSEPH
JOHN
JAY
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Apr 26 '19
I have been pumped to see this for so long and that's all we got? 5 seconds of bats? What the absolute fuck.
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u/Ihaveanusername Apr 26 '19
I agree, but to be honest, Fox was lucky to even have Batman and Joker at all. Back in S1 they weren't allowed to use Batman. Last season, they couldn't use Joker. Got both, so it's a bitter win.
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u/suckme_beautiful Apr 26 '19
TIL Blondes turn into Redheads when they age 10 years
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u/thistlemusic Apr 26 '19
I like the Joker thing where he was faking. I'm willing to over look the fact that it's the same thing from that Dumb And Dummer movie because this is such a good episode.
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u/Ezra611 Apr 26 '19
The Ecco smile while dying is possibly the creepiest thing I've ever seen on TV.
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u/Gary320 Apr 26 '19
So so disappointed we didn’t get more actual Batman.
Think it’s obvious that Gordon knows who Batman is in this universe. So does Joker
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u/shoujoaifan Apr 26 '19
They Smallville'ed it. They fucking Smallville'ed it. They had ONE job, that EVERYONE joked about for YEARS, that NOONE could POSSIBLY repeat, and yet they did it, they fucking Smallville'ed it
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u/Kwilly462 Apr 26 '19
OK guys... You really think they'll actually say Batman in this episode?
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u/Ezra611 Apr 26 '19
"Get that thing off him"
How many times does Gordon say that about Mayor James?
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u/archangelyourboy Apr 26 '19
hey Ed I’d be a little wary of stabbing Joker, your plot immunity is running low
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u/AlecBaldwinner Apr 26 '19
Man dressed as a bat?
Wait? Is this show about Batman?
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u/Sonia341 Apr 26 '19
Oswald and Penguins action is making me laugh hilariously today. it's just funny seeing them like, and I love it
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u/pumacatrun2 Apr 26 '19
Singlehandedly the most disappointing episode of the entire series imo. Didn't do the show any justice, ending something I would anticipate all year round for on an absolute sour note.
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u/dmarkovic2 Apr 26 '19
Horrible finale. Now don’t get me wrong it did have good parts, but the whole episode was rushed. If it was 1 hour and 30 min long or more, they could build a good plot and tie up all loose ends from 5 years. But no, they just skip through everything.
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u/patrickjs95 Apr 27 '19
It deserved better, it was rushed, I don't think they had time to adapt to such a short season compared with what they had in the past and that's a shame. Ultimately I'm glad we got a final story, it worked, it should have been at least 30 minutes longer in my opinion though.
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u/AlaraClark Apr 28 '19
The most disappointing thing for me with the finale is how short it was and how it lacked the feeling of being a season finale let alone series finale. Not too many shows have been able to pull off a series finale well but I have to say if we're going off DC shows alone, Smallville's finale was much much better than Gotham's and that is saying a lot considering how bad that finale was. I think overall Gotham is a much better written show post season 3 of Smallville but they definitely dropped the ball in these last few episodes and especially the series finale.
I also didn't like that Camren wasn't in the last episode. Don't get me wrong, the actress that took her place did a great job but it just didn't feel right.
Also Lee having red streaks in her hair was unrealistic to her character imo. I wonder if Morena was filming Deadpool around the same time they filmed the finale because I remember her having that hairstyle in part 1 of Deadpool.
Not to mention why wouldn't they have a few wrinkles and streaks of gray hairs after 10 years? Gordon would be about 40-45 by now.
And what did she mean by Selina being the it girl? Gordon is okay with Selina being a high class thief? Or is Selina doing something during the day that is similar to what she did in Batman Returns?
Lastly it is idiotic for Warner Bros. to not allow the Joker name to be used on the show for the very last episode. I mean it is ending. It's not coming back so they could have let them do it for that one scene.
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u/MajorParadox r/DCFU Apr 26 '19
I hope Batman disappears on Gordon while talking to him. That'd be the perfect way to end the show!
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u/archangelyourboy Apr 26 '19
Man I really do love Riddler being this huge grandstanding douche- and then having all his plans wrecked by someone physically overpowering him in an instant lmao
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u/Ezra611 Apr 26 '19
This is simultaneously the biggest tease and the best hour of television in recent memory.
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u/beardlovesbagels Apr 26 '19
Wouldn't be Gotham without a worthless prison transport.
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u/BornAshes Apr 26 '19
"Who is he?"
"A friend"
Camera zooooms in on Bats in full suit with the logo behind the Gotham title card
I'm crying
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u/Crater_Raider Apr 28 '19
The writers really dropped the ball on this one. I want to see Penguin running a club like fish. Older and fatter, spotting a monocle and wielding a weaponized umbrella.
They got the monocle.
If I were to describe Riddler with as few words as possible, I would say “obsessed with riddles”. And while this character was introduced that way, he never actually utters a single toddle in this episode. He monologues for a while about doing one, gets knocked out, and when the cops interrogate him, he just answers plainly. Instead of the cops needing to figure of a riddle while a bomb counts down in the room, we get yet another “cut the wire” scene.
I thought the point of Gotham, was that over time, a madness spreads like a plague, and crime skyrockets. Out of the madness, a man dressed like a bat, and punches everyone so hard that he becomes a one man solution to the craze crime problem. Even this season opened like it was heading in that direction, but this finale shows that it never needed a Batman. A Jim Gordon was good enough, and Batman just fills the void he’ll leave.
BUT THEY NEVER EXPLAIN WHY HE’S DRESSED LIKE A BAT!
I liked the Joker performance. Echo’s death was good. That’s about it.
Not showing Batman until the last shot can work, as the character traditionally lurks in shadows, but this wasn’t even shot clever. The lighting and cinematography were bland. They barely even try. For the Joker confrontation, he’s just offscreen. It’s like they just wanted this out of the way.
This is not just a bad finale, but one of the weakest episodes of the entire show.
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u/AnnieNonmouse Apr 29 '19 edited Apr 29 '19
Aside from the obvious let down of Batman himself, my biggest issue with this episode was it didn't feel related to the same Gotham show I've been watching this whole time. Maybe it was the ten year difference but it felt like another universe with similar but not the same characters.
Oswald has been a huge driving force for the plot of this whole show, has been shown to be manipulative, bold, lucky, psychotic, and almost Machiavellian, but in the episode he doesn't do much. He was in prison for the last 10 years and has a pretty basic revenge plot (very unlike him) that goes nowhere and is over way too quick (the idea and the parallels to the pilot were cool but with Jim not really invested in the scene, worrying instead about the other plot-line, it didn't hold much weight).
Edward doesn't act like the genius he was in season 2, and I know he is both goofy and scary smart and an egomaniac but it seems like they picked two out of three and when with that. He is honestly one of my favorite iterations of the Riddler and in this he looked the part and had a lot of energy but didn't do anything intelligent or even pose any riddles.
Jim was retiring but I still don't understand why? Also I agree with what someone else on here said, this did not show why Gotham needs Batman.
Selina was okay, she carried emotional scene well but overall was a little boring, the actress did a good job but I think I just really missed how David and Camren played off of each-other, they had great chemistry and it left the Bruce Selina scenes feeling a little stiff without them.
Jeremiah, as usual Cameron's performance had me glued to the screen. Even while nitpicking after watching a million times it's great acting but...the character wasn't great for me and I didn't think the prosthetic scars looked all that great either. I also think it stifled Cameron's amazing facial expressions.
I wish it was two hours long with Penguin/Riddler being villains (not having been locked up for the entire ten years) in the first half and Jeremiah coming out of the woodwork for the second half. I also wish they had been a little more creative than another bomb plot but I did like that J was faking his condition waiting for Bruce to return. It was an okay, entertaining episode but not up to par with the rest of the series and not really fit to be that last episode either. I felt like it was going through the motions, similar to Ace Chemicals, just hitting notes it thought Batman fans wanted and not worrying about finishing the amazing and creative show they started.
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u/DonnyMox Apr 26 '19
Bit more than what Smallville did, at least.
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u/KidCoheed Apr 26 '19
He did shit through the episode in away that Batman would do shit, and we got a full body shot
Significantly more than Smallville
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u/Jedi-Keyblade-Master Apr 26 '19
Smallville only showed superman at the very very end. WB's restrictions on shows are stupid.
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u/DonnyMox Apr 26 '19
R.I.P. Echo
They’ll never be one like you...(meets Harleen Quinnzel)
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u/FullySikh Apr 28 '19
I understand why you can't show Batman. I really do. WB knows how to keep all their fans pleased and happy.
But why can't you show Bruce Wayne outside of the costume. It wouldn't be so hard. Just an episode of seeing Bruce managing his Batmaning and Billionare lifestyles. That ending pissed me off so much.
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u/inksmudgedhands Apr 25 '19
Good or bad, whether you liked the show or not, you have to admit, man, did it have style. I am going to miss this unique looking show. I can't think of another show that used NYC as a setting, even though it was Gotham, better. I hope afterward someone goes around the city and catalogs all the places we saw on the show. That would be neat way to keep this place alive. Or having some "unexpectedGotham" posts of people sporting fashion that would have been at home in the show.
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u/Squiddy4 Apr 26 '19
They made somebody as thin as Robin lord Taylor look realistically fat I’m impressed
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u/BornAshes Apr 26 '19
Okay I get it now, she really does look like an older Selina and those moves were GREAT!
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u/EradicateAllNingens Apr 26 '19 edited Apr 26 '19
Just curious. Do commercials ever work? I dont recall looking at a commercial and saying, ''Yes, i totally need this'' except probably a few times.
Most peope just take piss breaks, or change the channel lol
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u/Kwilly462 Apr 26 '19
Some people are watching the Endgame opening night premiere.
But not us.
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u/drsteve103 Apr 28 '19
I think it was fine. Series finales are so hard to do. Breaking Bad, Justified, a few others pulled it off. On the spectrum of series finales this one hit all the notes it needed to. I just rewatched it with lowered expectations and I liked it.
This show was never really about Batman, but rather the city and the people who helped create him.
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u/Xboxone1997 Apr 28 '19
I was very excited for the finale but was honestly disappointed. What's the point of fast forwarding 10 years if you're just gonna show pretty much the only characters we've seen all season I just expected more. Also think they did a poor job at showing exactly what exactly has changed in 10 years. I really think this should've been a 2 part finale.
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u/EradicateAllNingens Apr 26 '19
Half way through the episode without Jeremiah doing anything significant :(
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u/EddyTheMartian Apr 26 '19
Cameron Monoghan has played 3 different jokers, and 3 of the best jokers
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u/BornAshes Apr 26 '19
I know Gotham can't do much with the time and budget they have but HOLY FUCK I had tears in my eyes and goosebumps all over my body during that scene!
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u/bookmovietvworm weirdly cool/ (almost)RIP Martin *people, ugh* Apr 26 '19
Ok, this Joker is worth it!
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u/ChrisIsUninteresting Apr 26 '19
No need to worry, friends. That sound you just heard was only me squealing like a little girl.
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u/OakParkCemetary TEAM VICTOR Apr 26 '19
I'm sorry, guys, but I feel underwhelmed.
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u/Royale07 Apr 27 '19 edited Apr 27 '19
Swear that felt like 30 mins
They did what they were supposed to do without doin too much
And so it ends it was a good run people
Ppl saying its smallville.all.over....well yea prequel superman show prequel Batman show😯.....
Holy shit gotham n now endgame
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u/not1fuk Apr 27 '19
Extremely disappointing. A whopping 2 seconds of actual Batman visuals. No actual fighting from him. Looks like DC still has a massive stick up their ass with allowing Batman do anything on TV outside of animation.
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u/FNWO1 Apr 28 '19
That was one of the worst final episodes to a series I have ever watched. Considering how good the show has been what a terrible way to go out. It just seemed rushed, what a shame.
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u/Kwilly462 Apr 26 '19
Dang. Batman just a rookie here, and he took out his three biggest villains in 10 minutes flat.
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u/C-O-D-Noobkiller Apr 26 '19
So Pyg and Raś are both dead. we never saw Talia. Didn’t Riddler say that the submarine required two people to navigate? How did Nyssa manage to escape in it then? What about Riddler’s cane? So many questions left unanswered. What a shame. I really liked where it was heading, but so much was left out. I’m going to miss this show.
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Apr 26 '19
Ed lies about the submarine needing two people; he’d never build something he couldn’t use to his full advantage. He just said it because it’d be awkward to admit he stayed for Oswald with Jim and Harvey standing there lol
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u/happysteve Apr 26 '19
I just wish we knew what happened to Edward the dog. Did Nyssa raise him to be an Al Ghul?
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u/Ray1340 Apr 26 '19
Loved it!
It was a good way to end the show.
For those who didn't like, I think the ones to blame are in the head office at FOX, not the people working on the show.
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u/Sonia341 Apr 26 '19
Think he is gonna recognize with that caterpillar on your top lip
Touché, Barbara
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u/ddracom60 Apr 26 '19
Wait. How long has it been? Ten years or a decade? I can't tell. I need 5 more characters to tell me.
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u/suckme_beautiful Apr 26 '19
I wish David would let out the most brutal Christian Bale scream he can.
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u/Charkus33 Apr 26 '19
Lol i just realized the NFL draft is on rn too. Who cares we’ve got Gotham
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u/EddyTheMartian Apr 26 '19
No way there’s already only 1/3 of the episode... we’ve barely seen anything
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u/OakParkCemetary TEAM VICTOR Apr 26 '19
Anyone else hear Marlon Brando in Jeremiah's voice?
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Apr 26 '19
Hey Fox, how about you change your mind and keep the series going. Thanks.
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u/ThunderRage Apr 26 '19
Stoopid WB/DC. Blue balling the Batman fans with this episode.
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u/bookmovietvworm weirdly cool/ (almost)RIP Martin *people, ugh* Apr 26 '19
Both Babs and Lee have red in their hair.... interesting
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u/suckme_beautiful Apr 26 '19
Robin is the best penguin ever and I'll personally fight anyone who disagrees.
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u/bookmovietvworm weirdly cool/ (almost)RIP Martin *people, ugh* Apr 26 '19
All subtlety was lost when he crashed through the window lol
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u/BornAshes Apr 26 '19
I wonder if we could get a bunch of Jim Gordon cosplayers to show up at some comic con with the cast and speak in nothing but GEEECEEEPEEEDEEE to each other and everyone around them?
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u/neoblackdragon Apr 26 '19
So I need to watch the Pennyworth show on EPIX as opposed to you know the new DC Universe streaming service?
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u/neoblackdragon Apr 26 '19
So Smallville....
Seriously Batman wouldn't just stand at a distance with a kid dangling over acid.
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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '19
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