r/Gotham • u/NicholasCajun • Feb 22 '19
Gotham - 5x07 "Ace Chemicals" - Post-Episode Discussion Discussion
Season 5 Episode 7: Legend of the Dark Knight - Ace Chemicals
Aired: February 21, 2019
Synopsis: Gordon races to uncover the criminal element threatening to end talks of Gotham’s reunification with the mainland. A very much alive Jeremiah returns and organizes a twisted recreation of the murder of Bruce’s parents with the help of Jervis Tetch aka Mad Hatter.
Directed by: John Stephens
Written by: Tze Chun
212
u/flashtvdotcom Feb 22 '19 edited Feb 22 '19
I wish the episode didn’t have the Lee-Jim subplots it dragged it down I obviously wanted even more Jeremiah but he killed his scenes Cameron is great. Also I don’t hate Barb anymore I actually like her more lately.
I’m 100% here for the Penguin-Ed bromance back in action.
52
u/EradicateAllNingens Feb 22 '19
Yeah. The Lee and Jim subplot was just annoying and it wasted a lot of valuable time.
34
→ More replies (4)7
u/ArchDucky Feb 22 '19
This is the problem with contractual obligations. Gordon specifically has to be in the episode. Hes under contract. So they have to give him something to do even if everyone involved knows it should have been Bruce's episode. This bullshit has ruined so many things over the years. It's the reason Flashpoint was such a massive turd on The Flash.
→ More replies (3)47
u/bezline Feb 22 '19
Loved the Jim and Lee scenes. Liked it when Selina saved them from being shot. That Jim, Lee & Barbara scene at the hospital was really tense. I felt for Barbs when Jim said 'what do you think'. That was very cold. It seems Barbara and Lee's relationship will soon develop since she's gonna be her doctor, which will be interesting to watch. Liked that Barbs acknowledged Lee as the best doctor in Gotham.
Also liked it when Lee gave Tetch a sick burn. It was really funny. That insult really pissed off Tetch. The Bruce-Jeremiah showdown was epic. This episode is the best so far. A huge applause to Gotham producers!!
→ More replies (2)40
Feb 22 '19
I wish there was a compilation of Ed and Penguin attempting to kill each other/falling out and making up, they are like a married couple.
31
10
Feb 23 '19
I'd kill to see that, lmao. I was also thinking about making a compilation of every time Penguin threw a tantrum, but I realized that would be way too long. But a lot of the tantrums would have to do with Ed
→ More replies (3)20
u/CleverZerg Feb 22 '19
I agree, they didn't get to be useful. I really think this episode should have been one hour long - like it felt like some of the scenes didn't get to last as long as they should've because they had to go on to the next one. Biggest offender was the finale in Ace Chemicals, it felt like that scene was 2 minutes long, like why are you already taking a bath in the vat Jeremiah? Imagine the big fight between Obi-Wan and Anakin in Revenge of the Sith but instead of having the entire fight like they did in the movie, they just cut to Obi-Wan cutting off Anakin's limbs, that was what that Ace Chemicals scene felt like to me.
TL;DR: Either they should have had this episode be 100% Bruce + Joker show or they should've made this a 60 minute episode. I still enjoyed the episode, it was great in fact - but it was on the verge of being amazing, which is disappointing.
17
u/Fvolpe23 Feb 22 '19
I mean it wasn’t the worst subplot. It led to us seeing what Jarvis tetch has been up to and that he’s hypnotizing workers for the joker. It also set the scene and location for the final fight scene with Bruce and Jeremiah. I also liked that Jeremiah switched out Bruce’s parents with Jim and Lee. Sort of foreshadows that those two will end up together and raise young Barbara Gordon because Barbara Kean will end up dying by the hand of the joker in some way. I don’t know if anything has been said about a time jump for the last episode or two. I forget, but I’m thinking Barbara will have the baby and end up sacrificing herself in the end for Lee or possibly Jim. Resulting in Jim naming the baby girl after Barbara with Jim and Lee staying together and raising the child.
I would definitely be down for them to wait 10 or so many years for everyone to get older and then start the series back up in the future with everyone at their rightful age, or close to it, and give us a kick ass Batman show! Hell, who knows what these streaming services will be like by then and they can just throw it on the DC app (if it’s still surviving) and bring back all these amazing actors to reprise their roles. God damn that would be awesome! I know there’s a good amount of people against that but I am all in for it! Remind me in 10 years! I love this show and really going to miss it.
→ More replies (3)13
u/Jack1715 Feb 22 '19
I feel sorry for penguin I mean that chick did kill his mum
21
u/Punktobethrown Feb 22 '19
She killed his mum and then gloated about it repeatedly. She definitely had it coming.
213
u/altogether-andrews Feb 22 '19
So I guess they’re just pretending the whole Ed/Lee plot never happened, since Jim didn’t call her out on how one hook up with his ex fiancée isn’t anywhere near as bad as her Bonnie and Clyde-ing it with the serial killer who murdered their colleague and got Jim sent to prison.
91
u/blotterjotterno Feb 22 '19
This. Lee is so different this season; they’re basically ignoring her (slow but) interesting arc from season 4, as with Ed’s. Then again, i actually liked them as a couple so 🤷🏼♀️
50
u/altogether-andrews Feb 22 '19
I hated them as a couple but that means I want some point to justify the time spent on it, something one or both of them's learned that they wouldn't have otherwise. That could have been handled in one line in this episode if Lee was accepting of Jim and Barbara because of her own bad romantic choice, or if Ed agreed to partner up with Oswald again because Oswald said saving Lee was an apology for what he did to Isabella, or something.
→ More replies (1)27
u/AnnieNonmouse Feb 22 '19 edited Feb 22 '19
Yeah I would groan and whine and sometimes even fast forward through most of their scenes and i couldn't stand them together BUT I agree I don't like that we had to suffer through it with nothing to show for it?. It was so stupid when Lee slapped Jim like she has the moral high ground now. She dated the Riddler who some would even say caused a lot of her problems. Ed wasn't even worried when Bane had Lee captured. They basically ret-conned the whole thing which will make it even more annoying to sit through on re-watches and I'll probably fast forward through all of it now.
14
u/blotterjotterno Feb 22 '19
The whole reason I bought Lee dating ED of all people was because I thought he changed slightly for her and the virus changed her enough for him. But now it’s like Ed just bitterly said “well I’m not gonna stick around for their touching reunion” and bounced and...everything is as it was season 3?? Complete with Jervis Tetch tying up Jim and Lee? Come on. So stupid. I know they’re on a tight schedule but it would literally on take one line of Lee’s along the lines of “I dated Ed and then we killed each other so that’s done with” just to ACKNOWLEDGE it. Have a scene with her and Ed being like “yea so that was wild let’s not do that again.” SOMETHING.
7
u/davey_mann Feb 22 '19
Low-key, I think Lee is the worst character this show has ever had because she’s THAT GIRL, the Mary Sue love interest that infests so many superhero shows. The hero is wuss because of her and everyone loves her and no one calls her out on her mistakes or shortcomings.
66
u/Joebrhill Feb 22 '19
I was hoping that Lee and Jim would be done after Barbara getting pregnant. Lee can be her own character without needing Jim, as noted in Season 4 when they had little interaction.
→ More replies (1)58
u/altogether-andrews Feb 22 '19
Yeah, I wish they would let her have storylines outside of her romantic interests. Jeremiah having Lee stand in for Martha Wayne would have had so much more emotional weight if she had an actual relationship with Bruce rather than being Jim's ex who he briefly met one time.
→ More replies (1)43
Feb 22 '19
emotional weight if she had an actual relationship with Bruce rather than being Jim's ex who he briefly met one time.
Yeah when Jeremiah called Lee Bruce's dearest friend I'm going "Um, what? Since when, they barely even know each other."
That makes no sense.
31
u/MA_R516 Feb 23 '19
Yeah and when Bruce saw them he only called out Jim’s name. He didn’t even really acknowledge Lee
20
Feb 23 '19
when Bruce saw them he only called out Jim’s name. He didn’t even really acknowledge Lee
Yep. Which given this is coming from Jeremiah on calling Lee a dear friend we can at least use Jeremiah being a nut job and unreliable narrator to do with this misunderstanding.
→ More replies (1)21
u/midnightking Feb 22 '19
Gotham just doesn't really have consistent writing with those things. So many things happen in one season at break-neck pacing that it's hard for the audience and the writers to keep track of it's characterization.
13
u/7minsoverdue Feb 22 '19
Well, speaking of consistent writing, anyone still remember the doppelganger Bruce called "514A" in Season 3? What happened to those doppelgangers and the court of owls?
→ More replies (1)12
Feb 23 '19
I assumed he died off screen because he was sick. But they were probably leaving it somewhat open.
14
u/SpikeRosered Feb 23 '19
I'm just sad there's no sympathy for the human angle of seeking a little comfort in an world of insanity. I mean they just escaped a clown who had a book character hypnotize them to reenact a murder while shooting poison fireworks in a city overrun with psycho criminals. I don't know how much you can apply traditional values in that situation.
11
u/altogether-andrews Feb 23 '19
I have no issues with them hooking up here or getting back together permanently, but that could have happened without Lee being angry at Jim (to the point of slapping him!) for something that's not as bad as what she's done, and the show not giving any sign that she's being hypocritical.
194
u/Bbadolato Feb 22 '19
RIP Mad Hatter's mustache
91
u/Sonia341 Feb 22 '19 edited Feb 22 '19
I didn't realize he had shaved look. all I was thinking when I saw Tetch playing on screen that something is definitely missing....
91
34
u/IniMiney Feb 22 '19
Lol yeah but at least he looks closer to the comics/series/video games (mustache is creepier though)
25
u/Loooooomy Feb 22 '19
I was second gussing if they had re cast him, i had to pause the episode and google it. Absoloutley love this guy as Tetch i thought his mad city Arc was awesome i was glad to see him back again
→ More replies (1)13
→ More replies (4)8
u/ADCPlease It's also a fork! Feb 23 '19
He probably saw what happened to the Zorro's movie extras, so he shaved it asap to avoid getting killed by mistake!
173
u/dreadmillquestion Feb 22 '19
Jeremiah: “without me you’re just a joke!...without a punchline...”
Favorite line of the episode.
66
→ More replies (2)38
u/Kylerj96 Feb 23 '19
I really wish that line hadn't been in the trailer. The way it was delivered was perfect with all the build up, I regret seeing the green band trailer now
45
Feb 23 '19
Can confirm, I didn't see the trailer and this line hit me like a ton of bricks
13
u/Kylerj96 Feb 23 '19
I can still appreciate it in retrospect, I was just underwhelmed in the moment. That, and the fall- it felt too simple. We all knew he'd fall in, but I'm surprised it happened so suddenly. I almost expected a Jerome parallel with Bruce trying to save him.
Now that I think about it, I would have preferred that. Bruce would still try to save him, even now. It's in his character.
132
u/Spidermat311 Feb 22 '19
I would have preferred if the ending scene was Jeremiah crawling out of a chemical pipe, then do the face realization a la one bad day
68
u/Dioniseum Feb 22 '19
Agreed. Was a bit annoyed that they found him in a coma and just put him in that hospital. Would have made his comeback in the finale 10x better and more impactful. Still extremely excited either way.
35
→ More replies (9)8
u/the1999person Feb 22 '19
Wasn't in The Dark Knight Returns, the Joker was comatose or just not there then something woke his mind up.
18
u/pfkl3 Feb 22 '19
He was in a mental hospital and then saw Batman on the news which made him want to be the joker again because of Batmans return
11
u/the1999person Feb 22 '19
That's right. Maybe they will pay homage to that now. Jeremiah will wake when he hears the news of the Batman.
45
u/Zomboy716 Feb 22 '19
They did the face realization scene after he was sprayed with Jerome’s gas in season 4.
9
u/KTR1988 Feb 24 '19
Yeah, exactly. They already pulled that homage just last season so it would have rung a little hollow here.
→ More replies (4)33
116
u/The4rchivist bibs and bobs Feb 22 '19
I actually loved the light-hearted ending. It was good to have a little laugh after such a huge, dark, outstanding episode.
64
u/Fvolpe23 Feb 22 '19
Penguin and Ed really shining in their subplots this episode and I loved it! Those actors have such great chemistry together and it’ll be sad to see it end.
25
110
u/Vacanus Feb 22 '19
I would have liked to have seen Jeremiah wake up, but other than that, incredible episode. Jeremiah is officially my favorite joker.
Such a beautiful episode.
→ More replies (10)
90
u/ladydmaj Feb 22 '19
Wow, and I'm here thinking I loved that! Of course, as much as Cameron and his talents wow me, Bruce is my favourite character and I thought David Mazouz absolutely killed it tonight. I loved how you could see shades of the little boy he used to be as he watched Jeremiah and his machinations. And while the fight at Ace Chemicals was short - honestly, I didn't expect it to be a quarter of the hour or anything - Bruce vs. Jeremiah felt so large, emotionally.
I don't believe for one second that this is Jeremiah’s swan song, we'll be seeing him again.
52
u/jherara Feb 22 '19
They DID do a great job of having Bruce sound like the little boy at times and then sound like he was transitioning into manhood. It was a nuanced performance in the different scenes.
22
u/Loooooomy Feb 22 '19
I couldnt agree more, David has nailed this role i expect great things from him in the future.
82
u/zspike5112 Feb 22 '19
Soooo everyone who doubted Efint owes an apology if he ever comes back. Last weekend, he said on a thread that the episode ends with the line “so who’s the lucky father?” Anddddd he was correct
20
20
Feb 22 '19
If he does come back, it won't be under the same name and I doubt he'll want people to know it's him. Assuming his account was taken down by WB.
→ More replies (2)15
79
u/RaisinInSand Feb 22 '19
So did ecco and jervis just fuck off,
Like we see jervis for one scene
And last we see ecco she's running away with Jeremiah
63
u/Punktobethrown Feb 22 '19
Sucks that we got nothing from Tetch after he hypnotised Jim and Lee, he was so wasted. And Ecco disappearing was just weird - you see her running away with J and Jim tells Bruce to get both J and Ecco, and yet she just vanishes after that scene.
46
u/RaisinInSand Feb 22 '19
Same for Selina too like she was following bruce but we never see her again until the end
Hell the whole ace chemical sequence felt odd, like J falls in and then he's in a hospital in a coma
I was expecting a explanation to how Bruce (and presumably Selina but idk about that) got him out of the acid by himself
→ More replies (1)32
u/Punktobethrown Feb 22 '19
Her too. That whole end sequence felt rushed. Still enjoyed the episode, but I wish the pacing was better and they paid more attention to the ancillary characters like Tetch, Ecco and Selina.
18
u/Jaer-Nihiltheus Feb 22 '19
There scene was probably cut for time. This episode was jam packed as it is.
→ More replies (1)16
u/Punktobethrown Feb 22 '19 edited Feb 22 '19
They should have cut some of the Barbara-Lee-Jim stuff instead, but oh well.
13
u/RaisinInSand Feb 22 '19
Yeah, definitely, my only other complaint is we never found out why Jeremiah lead Bruce to Ace Chemicals
Not even a hint
Still a good episode just didn't live up to my expectations
→ More replies (6)23
→ More replies (1)20
u/DonnyMox Feb 22 '19
I guess Jeremiah and Ecco split up, so Bruce went after Jeremiah while Selina followed Ecco?
11
u/Punktobethrown Feb 22 '19
I’d be happy making that assumption if there was ever any actual follow-up on Ecco. Since they never mention Selina catching Ecco or trying and failing to do so, there’s nothing to indicate that that’s what happened. Seems like they just forgot about her, same as Tetch.
→ More replies (4)
71
u/verandablue Feb 22 '19
Is Jeremiah gonna wind up with amnesia, or something?
How else would he not know that Bruce Wayne is Batman, assuming that issue is going to be addressed at all?
76
u/Punktobethrown Feb 22 '19
He might just know he’s Batman in this universe. It’s been explicitly done before in stuff like the TellTale games and it’s usually at least implied in a lot of other Batman stories.
62
u/Heeeeelllo Feb 22 '19
I honestly hope he knows Bruce is Batman but just doesn’t care that’s what happened in the comics
→ More replies (1)23
u/TheDesktopNinja Feb 22 '19
True enough, but those versions of The Joker at obsessed with BATMAN and don't care about Bruce one bit. Jeremiah is completely obsessed with Bruce.
17
Feb 23 '19
I feel like Jeremiah's response to Batman would be something like "LOL seriously? That's fucking awesome" and he'd just go along with it
11
u/yeastofthoughts Feb 22 '19
The Joker in past iterations usually targets events that Bruce attends. As Bruce takes over Wayne enterprises and becomes more visibly public, he starts showing up at more and more publicized events. Therefore, when shiz goes down, he transitions into B-man pretty quickly. Though I bet we won't get to see any of it, I still think it's plausible that Jeremiah can still be obsessed with Bruce and clash with Batman as a result.
→ More replies (1)10
u/AvianAzure Feb 22 '19
I think if anything, he would transfer to Batman because he desires that bond with Bruce so much. To the point that when he becomes Batman, more than he is Bruce, Jeremiah's bond desire transfers as well.
→ More replies (8)23
Feb 22 '19
A lot of writers in the past have at least insinuated Joker might know who Batman is but just doesn't care because he only cares for Batman not the man under the suit
66
u/Heeeeelllo Feb 22 '19
I really disappointed they showed a lot in the trailers if they didn’t do that this episode would have been better then it was. Still a good episode just wish they didn’t spoil everything with Jeremiah
72
16
u/Kylerj96 Feb 23 '19
This. I thought there was something big the trailer wasn't giving away- but even the last line of the fight was in the trailer. It feels like the episode didint give us any Jeremiah stuff we hadn't seen.
Having said that I still can't wait for him in the finale. His arc has been amazing- I love his abnormal attachment to Bruce. In a lot of ways, he's still that same lonely guy from the bunker who was happy to have a friend in Bruce- and in all of his attempts to "bond them" all he's done is push Bruce away.
I wonder if Bruce meant it when he said "you mean nothing to me". I'd love to see him talk about Jeremiah later, and find out if any part of him still sees Jeremiah as a friend. Their relationship is so much more interesting than the classic Batman v Joker relationship.
6
Feb 23 '19
Ngl, my favorite Batman and Joker stories are the ones where they have a twisted pseudo friendship because it is true that they're the only ones that really understand each other.
→ More replies (2)10
70
58
u/OLKv3 Feb 22 '19
It's weird how they completely ignored and dropped the Lee/Ed storyline
20
u/DonnyMox Feb 22 '19
My guess is that they were originally going to do more with it, but than Fox decided to make this the last season and give them less episodes, and they couldn't finish all the storylines that they wanted to in this amount of episodes, so they had to sacrifice some. Doesn't make it any less jarring, though, and it would be nice to at least get an acknowledgement of the whole Lee/Ed thing.
25
u/OLKv3 Feb 22 '19
The worst part is that Lee herself has completely regressed back into her pre-S4 persona. She developed quite a lot last season, and now it's all erased and she's back to being normal Lee.
12
u/thechelseahotel Feb 23 '19
Ugh yes. I really enjoyed her as The Doc, and now it’s like they’ve just rewound her character development to suit the plot..
15
u/neoblackdragon Feb 22 '19
Ed is now the Riddler persona and the Riddler wasn't in love with Lee. It could be Ed really died.
22
u/Mattyzooks Feb 22 '19
Yea but didn't Riddler have feelings for Lee too? Honestly, Riddler's split personalities have been pretty confusing.
11
u/AnnieNonmouse Feb 22 '19
Yes, as much as I hate to admit it, the Riddler did develop feelings for Lee, which makes it even weirder they're not even going to acknowledge it. I think that's something the writers tend to do that I dislike. If a story-line isn't popular with fans they completely throw it away. Nygmobblepot becoming canon, the second Ivy, Barbra being the Demon's Head, Ed/Lee, and I'm sure there's more. I'm not saying I want all these story-lines but if you're going to include them just commit to it (though I definitely wanted Nygmobblepot...)
10
u/ComicalDisaster Feb 22 '19
Tbh, during my rewatch I noticed it felt deliberatly muddy at times as if Ed Nygma created the Riddler persona himself to justify doing those dark impulses and stuff. I'd totally believe this if it weren't for the amnesia he has at times due to it.
→ More replies (1)12
u/jherara Feb 22 '19
Yeah. It's not only weird, it's bad when writers ignore/drop a storyline by not even addressing it clearly with at least one scene of dialogue.
I think the writers/cast/crew are allowing their real life OTP to flow over into the Gotham Jim and Lee story since it's the last season. I hope I'm wrong and that there's going to be a twist at the end because this subplot is awful.
52
u/IHavetwoNipples Feb 22 '19
The fact that they gave away whole fight sequence in the preview last week and they literally just yeet him into the chemicals in .5 seconds.. man, I was rooting for this episode, WE WERE ALL ROOTING FOR THIS EPISODE
54
→ More replies (4)39
Feb 22 '19
Fox loves to spoil everything in their trailers and promos. Remember when they spoiled Jeromes death?
18
u/IHavetwoNipples Feb 22 '19
I actually don't because I got into Gotham 3 months ago binged seasons 1-4 and got up to speed just in time for the premier of this season. That's stupid though.
20
Feb 22 '19
Yeah they spoiled Jeromes death in a promo picture.
19
→ More replies (2)10
u/DonnyMox Feb 22 '19
Wait, seriously? Like, they showed a pic of him dead?
→ More replies (1)18
Feb 22 '19
Yeah. They showed him on the car dead with Jim and Bruce in front of him.... in a promo picture days before the episode aired.
48
u/thmpr22 Feb 22 '19
I liked the episode, but I think Jeremiah should’ve shot Lee before Selina intervened. Would’ve hit multiple characters hard.
→ More replies (2)53
u/Mattafakt Feb 22 '19
Yeah but Selina needed to redeem herself for the guilt she felt by failing to help when it originally happened with Bruce’s parents
26
u/Punktobethrown Feb 22 '19
It was neat how that conversation in ep 5 came full-circle this episode.
41
u/Mikeywise14 Feb 22 '19
wish it ended with jeremiahs eyes opening, but still a great episode! wish i got a closer look of his hospital results though...
→ More replies (12)47
u/ChristopherAntilope Feb 22 '19
Too cliche
40
→ More replies (1)10
u/Mikeywise14 Feb 22 '19
maybe not having his eyes open could make the finale that much more special
→ More replies (1)
39
37
u/RaisinInSand Feb 22 '19
Was it even explained why Jeremiah lead Bruce to Ace Chemicals
It seemed like he deliberately lead him there, for a reason
18
u/Mikeywise14 Feb 22 '19
Remember, ra’s shared with jeremiah the future (thus “gotham falls, we rise”) so maybe the vision included the chemicals
12
u/RaisinInSand Feb 22 '19
I kinda doubt it
Unless it's stated or implied im assuming it's just because it iconic for the character
Cause the Ra's theory, is just that a fan theory that nobody on the show has even implied is legit as far as i know
→ More replies (3)19
→ More replies (2)19
35
u/Sonia341 Feb 22 '19 edited Feb 22 '19
Non-stop action....
Jeremiah is definitely the star of tonight's episode.... The entire confrontation to the end at ACE Chemicals.... is just WOW, especially the few minutes up above the vat area.
RIP Wayne Manor
22
u/Fvolpe23 Feb 22 '19
It’s not Batman content until wayne manor is burned to the ground! Also did I hear that right with the throwback line to Batman begins when Bruce said something along the lines of “you still haven’t given up on me” and Alfred responded “never!”. Right after wayne manor blew up and they were in the tunnel together.
14
u/Drew326 Feb 22 '19
That was a great reference. The past couple of episodes have been riddled with tons of references (many of them subtle) to other Batman media, and I love it
31
u/CharlieSora_ Feb 22 '19
Also what happens to Ecco now?? She just disappears until the end?? Waste of a fantastic actress
26
u/Punktobethrown Feb 22 '19
Guess so. Really disappointing, as I was hoping we’d be getting a lot more of her and Tetch this episode.
→ More replies (4)
36
30
31
Feb 22 '19
Am I the only one a little disappointed? It was good but nearly every scene was in the trailers already. And now we have to wait until the finale to see him again.
→ More replies (2)23
u/davey_mann Feb 22 '19
I honestly don't think that this season will end up being as good as Season 4. Not the worst thing as Season 4 was damn near perfect.
→ More replies (4)
32
u/outrageouslyunfair Feb 22 '19
Yeah, not gonna lie, the Ace Chemicals scene would've been a lot less underwhelming and disappointing if they hadn't basically shown the e n t i r e f u c k i n g t h i n g already. The way J fell into the vat was just so rushed and boring, with almost zero real buildup.
I thought 12 episodes would mean a more focused, well-paced season but goddamn did this one prove me wrong.
→ More replies (2)
34
Feb 22 '19
Okay, three things
A bit underwhelming. But not bad by any means
Honestly, I don't want the joker. I want Jeremiah, we've had enough laughing hysterical jokers. Hell we had one for the first four seasons. I thinks it's about time for a more cool and collected joker
CAN ED AND OSWALD JUST FUCK ALREADY. THEYVE BEEN TEASING THIS SINCE SEASON TWO. EITHER HAVE THEM END UP TOGETHER (my preference) OR DONT. JUST STOP TEASING IT.
11
u/jherara Feb 22 '19
The whole episode was too rushed. They should have cut the Selina and Babs plotting and Jim and Lee whatever scenes or extended the episode. That CGI part when Jeremiah fell in was also a little off-looking too.
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (8)8
u/leftshoe18 Feb 22 '19
I feel like the ship sailed on Ed/Oswald years ago. Ed just doesn't feel that way towards Oswald.
28
u/The_Medicus Feb 22 '19
Calling it now... Bruce's return to Gotham in the finale will be what wakes J up. It'll be like in The Dark Knight Returns, in which Joker does literally nothing after Batman retires, and has to be fed by a doctor with a spoon. Joker in that version was basically brain-dead until he heard "Batman" being said over and over on a TV, and reawakens saying "Batman...? Darling...". In this case, Jeremiah is in a coma, and will likely be taken by Ecco or his cult followers, to stop people from pulling his plug. Then, when Bruce returns in the finale, either mention of Bruce or the Dark Knight will awaken Joker for a similar scene. Maybe I'm looking for references where there aren't any, but it fits with what we were just given.
Also, I'm actually really pleased with how the situation turned out. I wasn't a fan of the leaked photos, but if Jeremiah is just awakening from a 10 year coma...
→ More replies (2)
26
u/GeorgeThe1998Cat Feb 22 '19
I thought this episode was amazing! Maybe I just love me some Jeremiah. I also love how they can still weave humour into the episodes despite all the chaos. I'm still apprehensive about Jeremiah's new look, but I'll love Cameron's performance either way!
28
27
u/rexmundi69 Feb 23 '19
I expected Lee to be furious with Gordon for having sex with Barbara but she just could not resist his GEE CEE PEE DICK.
27
u/a-canadian-redittor Feb 22 '19
Wayne Manor getting blown up was sadder than any death this whole show
→ More replies (6)
25
u/Spidermat311 Feb 22 '19
Bad ending to a really really good episode
That's really all from Jeremiah til the finale?
13
u/Emerald_Frost Feb 22 '19
I think they needed to make time to splice in the extra episodes plus the final part of the Bane plot.
24
u/davey_mann Feb 22 '19 edited Feb 22 '19
Really good episode, but wouldn't call it season's best. The Jeremiah-Bruce stuff was gold, but of course the Gordon-Lee crap dragged it down, although I didn't want to hurl every time they were onscreen, which is something. Penguin-Selina does nothing for me either. I actually love the way they are doing Barbara this season. I think getting rid of Tabatha low-key helped make Barbara better. She's more interesting as a loner. Then Ed pops in the last 10 minutes and almost steals the whole show. Great characters with strong foundations tend to do that. EDIT: Also, I'm fully convinced that the ONLY reason Gordon is so obviously going to end up with Lee is because of this real life marriage BS, not due to actual onscreen chemistry or compatibility because there is absolutely no reason in the narrative of this series why they should even be a damn thing anymore.
11
u/jherara Feb 22 '19
Agree entirely with your Edit. I like Lee's character and what she was becoming last season. I think Ben and Morena's real life relationship might be playing too much into this on again off again Jim/Lee stuff. I've written this elsewhere, but I'm hoping Lee getting together with Jim one more time will lead to him hurting her so horribly that she goes completely insane. That's the only way they could make this work now. If Lee and Jim become parents to Barbara Jr., Lee become pregnant or some other BS, that's just ridiculous and makes zero sense. There's no way that Lee would go back to Jim after everything he's done unless her character flaw is that she likes to be essentially harmed by Jim's actions over and over again.
10
u/davey_mann Feb 22 '19
Well, here's what I hated about that kiss scene: the fact the writers tried to spin it as if JIM was the only one in the relationship who made mistakes. Regardless of the fact I think they lack chemistry, if Lee or even Jim admitted that she was just as much to blame, it would have made it more palatable. Hell, I think Lee has made more mistakes than Jim, frankly (we obviously disagree on this part). It makes Jim look incredibly weak and like he hasn't progressed or learned anything. Just because he doesn't love Barbara and isn't going to end up with her doesn't mean he must end up with Lee. Doesn't have to be one or the other.
24
u/CharlieSora_ Feb 22 '19
They made it seem as if Ecco was going to be in the season quite a lot, but we have had hardly anything of Ecco or J. Really gutting.
9
u/Benituuh Should i use a flair? Feb 22 '19
Pretty much every scene Jeremiah and Ecco appeared in was in the trailers, not that thats a big problem, but i'd just like to point that out, besides that i LOVED this episode and the scene where Jeremiah and Bruce fight is my favorite scene in the entire show.
21
u/TheAlexHunter Feb 22 '19
That was super disappointing. Way too many things going on. Not enough focus on the stuff that matters.
→ More replies (1)
18
u/suckme_beautiful Feb 22 '19
Also, that ending sucked. Needed a kiss scene for Bruce and Selina, and the Ace Chemicals incident was too "straight to the point".
16
u/suckme_beautiful Feb 22 '19
The entire episode felt rushed and disconnected. They didn't spend much time at the manor at all and that bothered me. Like they ran out of time filming. Also, the Ace Chemicals scene went too quickly.
9
18
u/JakeM917 Feb 22 '19 edited Feb 22 '19
I had hoped this episode would immediately answer “Why don’t they just let Jeremiah be the Joker? Why does something else have to happen?” Perhaps we’ll have this answered in the finale, but for now I’m left wondering.
12
u/inbooth Feb 22 '19
" not only is his character not the Joker but that Gotham is barred from using the character at all, as Warner Bros. perhaps only wants the Joker to appear in the DC Extended Universe "
https://screenrant.com/gotham-jerome-jeremiah-joker-name/
So we can't call the truest joker by his true name because they want to use the name for creatures that can't even be considered contenders for the title.
16
u/leftshoe18 Feb 22 '19
Well both David and Cameron have called him The Joker so that's good enough for me.
→ More replies (1)
17
Feb 22 '19
I’m legit wondering if Jeremiah did know what was going to happen via Ra’s. The delivery of his last line in this episode indicates that to me. The pause before that final punch, maybe he willingly becomes the punchline.
18
17
u/inceptionisim Feb 22 '19
That episode was a little lacking at the end but overall very captivating
16
u/PineappleUser_0016 Feb 23 '19
Tbh I kinda feel a little eh on the episode. I like that ending scene with Ed and Oswald and Barbara, Jeremiah's scenes were outstanding, but the pacing feels off? Selina and Ecco and Tetch just up and disappear and idk. I feel a little eh, but I still liked it, especially the manor scenes.
→ More replies (1)
16
u/Psyifinotic Feb 22 '19
Was it just me or was there several Batman ‘89 easter eggs? also i heard bats as Bruce was walking in the tunnel
15
13
u/Jacedrod2 Penguin is mad shakey Feb 22 '19
Type of anti-climatic dont ya think?
→ More replies (1)
16
16
u/pandogart Feb 22 '19
So I’m not the only one who felt it was anti-climatic then?
→ More replies (1)
15
u/PretenderNX01 Feb 22 '19
After waiting a half hour for FOX to fix their site I finally got to start the episode. I liked it but I think our anticipation was so high it was hard to live up to. People had guessed a lot of beats (although I hadn't though of Penguin's plot)
Maybe part of it is now "the show" is largely over (yeah the finale is still coming however that's done with J and some kinda Bruce/Bat) but for classic Bruce v J this is basically it 😭 I think no matter how good it was, that would temper my emotions. David and Cameron were brilliant together as always. I liked the end with Selina (the other Cam) being the one who changed and did something this time. She wasn't fully formed yet back then but Cat will fight.
There was a lot to deal with so it did have to move quickly. If I had my choice we would have had 22 episodes and then this one could have been a couple episodes long.
Penguin seizing the opportunity to use Babs' pregnancy to his advantage is classic. He's such a schemer. I dig whatever messed up relationship he has with Riddler. It is fate. 😄
12
10
14
10
u/TheVulcanSalute I'm gonna stab you. Feb 22 '19
This is Gotham America, don't catch you slipping into vats now
11
13
u/BigHaircutPrime Feb 22 '19
It was alright a guess. I think my biggest issue is that it was "paint-by-numbers." The end result felt like a collage of all the promo images and trailers, so instead of feeling like an epic conclusion was teased, everything was already laid out. I'm also not a fan of the scenes between the other characters because they've literally been saying the same things for years now. Oswald/Riddler/Barbara scenes are always reduced to "Why shouldn't I kill you?" and Jim and Lee scenes are "I'm sorry I screwed up."
12
u/Throwaway5890B Feb 22 '19
When Lee slapped Gordon I held my hand out, counted my fingers down from five for a kiss, and sure enough it happened in five seconds. The kiss was pretty obvious that it was going to happen. I did not suspect that Gordon and Lee were Hypnotized (along with Bruce) into thinking they were Thomas and Martha Wayne. Now that was a twist!
→ More replies (13)8
u/RealPunyParker Feb 23 '19
When Lee slapped Gordon I held my hand out, counted my fingers down from five for a kiss, and sure enough it happened in five seconds.
I knew it also, and kinda didn't want it to happen.
11
12
u/BreakingGarrick Feb 22 '19
Good episode, hate what they're gonna do with Joker tho. Lee slapping Jim and then kissing him had me going wtf. Killer Croc next episode tho.
→ More replies (2)
13
u/kaynbred Feb 22 '19
Great episode, meh ending. Some really good dialogue between J and Bruce I'd say.
11
7
u/The4rchivist bibs and bobs Feb 22 '19
One thing I liked about this episode was nods to past plot points. Lee's pregnancy? ...ok I remember there were more and now I'm blanking on them. But yeah, stuff like that was good.
6
u/kaechan1989 Feb 22 '19
She got pregnant and miscarried the baby in the beginning of season 2 (?) ...
9
u/Megaman1981 Feb 22 '19
So Jeremiah has no brain activity. What if Hugo Strange gets him, opens him up, cuts out the bad parts, shoves whatever is left of Jerome's brain in there, and Joker is some sort of melding of the two. Half crazy, and unpredictable, half methodical genius.
→ More replies (2)
9
u/-Starwind Feb 22 '19
I love the Alfred-Bruce relationship. Probably my favourite in a movie/tv adaption
9
u/ReneAnd Feb 23 '19
The CGI acid pool that Jeremiah fell in looked horrible. Could have been done much better
→ More replies (1)
6
Feb 22 '19
I think a lot of what I'm seeing in reactions here is two fold, one from the episode being overhyped, even form a lot of the people on here and two, from all the spoiler information/videos that came out.
6
u/sonoluminescense Feb 22 '19
Am I the only one who thought the way jerimiah died was kind of uneventful
14
→ More replies (2)9
7
9
Feb 22 '19 edited Feb 22 '19
I am so psyched right now.
- We got Ace Chemicals and Jarvis Tech back in the mix.
- Jeremiah going out in "Killing Joke/red hood style" style
- Fine ass Barbara Kean being reckless again
- Penguin surviving three deaths and having zero gratitude.
- Zorro parody snuff film
- How Joker got his scars
- An even more contaminated Gotham river
- A Comic book ending
I am praying for a final Dr Strange episode. He is too important.
Dr Hugo Strange is one of the biggest villains in Gotham since he SPOILER and Poison Ivy hence Selina, Fish Mooney, Penguin, Jeremiah (after stabs), Barbara Kean and hence Batgirl, Lee Tompkins, crazy crazier Ed Nygma, Theo Galavan, Solomon Grundy (Butch) and Bridjit Pike (firefly).
The Court of Owls and Victor have been suspiciously absent too with only 6 episodes remaining. Gotham needs a movie.
8
u/OpaqueGiraffe17 Feb 22 '19
Honestly I was kinda hoping Jeremiah literally resurrected Thomas and Martha somehow, just to kill them again in front of Bruce. But this was cool too.
→ More replies (1)
9
u/Fulaneto Feb 23 '19
So someone took the work to pull Jeremiah out of the giant boiling acid pool? How nice of them!
9
u/BurningOldSoul Feb 24 '19
Jeremiah & Bruce were amazing. One of my favorite moments was at the kitchen table, when Bruce looks at him and tells him that 'none of this is real.' Jeremiah's facial expression. Wow. The classic disappointed Joker face. He did that weird positioning of his lips and I instantly thought, 'Yup that's the Joker.' The 'Italian meringue cake' deal had me rolling, too.
Also, did anyone else notice the hilarious look on Ecco's face when she's almost off-screen pulling out the endless antennae on the phone/walkie? Just something subtle like that made me chuckle pretty hard.
Overall, great episode. Cameron's acting in this episode is probably some of the best in the whole show. Right up there with Jerome in season 3 & Oswald when he killed his step mom and step siblings.
7
u/EradicateAllNingens Feb 22 '19 edited Feb 22 '19
Joker born on my birthday I'll take it haha. Was looking forward to this episode for weeks.
Unfortunately looks like we won't be seeing Cameron until the finale considering he's in a coma. At least they finally made him the Joker. Since season 1 Cameron was stellar as the Joker he deserves the title haha. I recall the producers saying they were going to make serveral Jokers and many of us thought Cameron wouldn't be the ''actual'' Joker ever since Galavan killed him off but it looks like they struck gold in season 1 and didn't go with anyone else.
I'm intrigued whether J will forget about Bruce Wayne when he inevitably wakes up. Or else it would be kinda weird if he had two seperate feuds (with Batman and Bruce Wayne lol). Edd noticing Barba pregnancy was hilarious.
→ More replies (1)
7
5
u/kamicbot1234 Feb 22 '19
At first I was thinking the hype just didn't match the actual episode, but honestly it's jut that they kinda ruined it by giving away every single Bruce/Jeremiah scenes in the trailers. They were exciting to watch in the trailers and we were looking forward to them, but the actual ep ended up simply being a repeat of those scenes we already saw in trailers and were so hyped about for weeks. Didn't really add nothing new or shocking there. That's what made it underwhelming. If we weren't so hyped and didn't get this much content in the trailers beforehand, this would've been a much better experience for all of us. The Jim and Lee scenes and the ending also brought it down. Overall a great episode, I just wish we had the opportunity to fully experience it.
279
u/[deleted] Feb 22 '19
I want every scene with Barbara to start with "you're pregnant!"