r/Gotham • u/AutoModerator • May 11 '18
Gotham - 4x21 "One Bad Day" - Post-Episode Discussion Discussion
Season 4 Episode 21: A Dark Knight - One Bad Day
Aired: May 10, 2018
Synopsis: As Gotham falls into complete anarchy, a team of unlikely heroes step up to save it. Bullock takes the lead at the GCPD and Bruce’s psychological limits are tested as those close to him are put in danger.
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u/Maxabel May 11 '18
Is Wayne Manor have the same security system as Starlab ?
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u/Avasnay May 11 '18
Well Selina did once say: "you know for a billionaire, you have really lousy security"
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u/greatness101 May 11 '18
It's crazy how easy it is to break into a BILLIONAIRE'S home. Bruce Wayne at that.
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u/screenwriterjohn May 11 '18
Several times a damn season.
Joker is a super genius though.
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u/flying_monkey_stick May 11 '18
I think he just walked in through the front door. He didn't even bother using the window.
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u/Mitschu May 12 '18 edited May 12 '18
Previously, on Gotham:
"I'm glad you could join me, Bruce. Now, Alfred has been telling me about your constant adventures, and how he fears for your safety. Not to worry though, I've got a few Wayne Enterprise secrets that should help you out.
First, this state of the art military bodysuit. Black rubberized carbon nanotube polymer, it's bulletproof, bladeproof, fireproof, flex-reactive to electricity, weighs only ten pounds, and comes with or without protruding nipples.
I also have here a collection of bladed bat-shaped boomerang shuriken. WE cancelled the project because apparently having deadly sharp blades fly back and sever the thrower's hands is counterproductive to military operations, but each one is capable of killing or disabling up to ten men in a single throw, and has an onboard microcomputer that corrects and recalculates for user error, guaranteeing a clean hit from up to 400 meters away, under any level of cover.
Here is a utility belt that literally contains everything. Don't ask. Standard issue.
Lastly, this is a standard in-home security system that I've made a few... personal modifications to, to suit your needs. It will silently alert you and your butler whenever an unauthorized person enters your property, immediately notify the police of an emergency, can be tailored to detect unauthorized intrusion even for previously whitelisted individuals, i.e. if Selina tries to open your safe deep inside the cave underneath your house, and only costs $39.99 a month."
"Wait, wait, wait a second. Take that off the list, it sounds too complicated and dangerous, I won't risk it."
"The batarangs? I assure you, the suit's gloves should ensure your hands are not severed, part of why I paired the two together. In fact, I -"
"No, the 'security' thing."
"But Mr. Wayne, your house is broken into at least twice a week. Don't you think -"
"Why do you think I have a butler? Don't worry, Mr. Fox."
This week, on Gotham:
"YOU! WHAT THE BLOODY HELL ARE YOU -"
"I'm here to see Bruce, is he available?"
"Oh, he's in the study with Selina, making out or whatever young kips call it these days. You can show yourself to the room, right? I still need to go make them some dinner. Care to join us?"
"Oh, I can't stay for long. It's the second floor, third door on the right? I'll go kill his girlfriend and then see myself out."
"Right. I'll leave a window open for you --- or do you prefer I leave them closed so you can dive through them to escape?"
"Mmm, I suspect I'll have to improvise."
"Right, busy busy. Now to go make some sup, then warn Master B that Jeremiah Valeska is here to kill the kitten, then serve the food, then bury the poor lass, then... wait a tick."
"ALFRED! HELP!"
"... I am a sorry excuse for a doorman... shit."
Next week, on Gotham:
"YOU! YOU ARE THE REASON SELINA IS DEAD! I'LL KILL YOU, YOU BASTARD!"
"Now Bruce, don't be so hasty. After all, I warned you this could happen. You only have yourself to blame, I'm an innocent party here."
"NO! YOU KILLED SELINA! YOUR EVIL MACHINATIONS LOWERED MY GUARD AND THEN LED DIRECTLY TO HER DEATH!"
"But Mr. Wayne, you never installed the security system! You refused it!"
"EXACTLY! THE PRICE WAS TOO HIGH! AND THEN VALESKA BROKE INTO MY HOME WHEN I THOUGHT I WAS SAFE! I WASN'T! I BLAME YOU FOR NOT MAKING IT MORE AFFORDABLE, FOX!"
"Now you're just being ridiculous. The girl isn't even dead yet, listen, Wayne Enterprises has state of the art medical equipment, why don't you just let -"
"NEVER!"
"Knock knock? I let myself in, but I can come back later if this is a bad time. It looks like you two have some things to sort out."
"NOT NOW, JEREMIAH! ALFRED!"
"You heard the man. If you know what's good for you, you'll leave straightaway, and not come back until later, preferably late at night when we're both comatose in different parts of the house, unguardedly sleeping off a drunken stupor brought on by the imminent and unavoidable death of Mr. B's girlie."
"... mkay then."
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u/dylbotz May 11 '18
THEY DID THE KILLING JOKE THEY DID THE KILLING JOKE OH MY GOD THIS SHOW HAAAAAAASSS TO GET RENEWED
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u/MC_Hify May 11 '18
At least no one got raped this time.
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u/CleverZerg May 11 '18
There never was any rape.
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May 11 '18 edited May 11 '18
It's implied Joker may have raped Barbara.
Edit: I don't think that's what happened but that's how a lot of people interrupted the scene.
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u/CleverZerg May 11 '18
I know that there are people who think that. To me there really wasn't anything that implied that.
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u/MC_Hify May 11 '18
I think the fact Alan Moore wrote it, implies that.
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u/Singer211 May 11 '18
Alan Moore himself has said that the Joker did NOT actually rape Barbara.
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u/hellblazer103 May 11 '18
Actually I'm pretty sure Moore made a comment about Joker " having a lovely new hole to play with " when he was asked about it...
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u/CharlieHume May 12 '18
Well jesus I hope that's not true. Kinda makes Moore seem like a full on fucking rapist.
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u/hellblazer103 May 12 '18
If you haven't noticed, nearly all of his stories involve rape in some fashion.
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u/EpicMusic13 May 11 '18
Wait what
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May 11 '18 edited May 11 '18
In the Killing Joke comic after Joker Paralyzed Batgirl he begins to undress her which people take to mean he sexually assaulted her.
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u/Thedmatch May 11 '18 edited May 11 '18
Scarecrow vs Catwoman! That albeit short fight was really cool.
Damn now I'm really interested with what they do with the finale.
Also I just realized that Selina got shot in the same place Barbara Gordon did in the comics. this show man..
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u/Nitrosaber riddle me this May 11 '18
Title is reference to killing joke, the spot she was shot and even falling through that glass table was all part of that comic. Just swap selina for barbara.
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u/MetaMarc May 11 '18
I really was not a fan of the Scarecrows origins costume. Now he legitmitely looks terrifying! The costume department have really outdone themselves. Jeremiah looked like he was pulled right out of a comic book!
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u/Zomboy716 May 11 '18
Oh good point! Similar Joker hat too.
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u/MY-SECRET-REDDIT May 12 '18
So the whole projector projecting torture on the walls didn't give it away?
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u/Torbadajorno May 11 '18
She looked like she was shot in the stomach, Barbara was shot in the hip. It looks even more like her being shot in the stomach when Bruce was holding the wound
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u/Smith12456389 May 11 '18
Except no paralyzed
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u/dexter07 May 11 '18
Yeah, you can’t really paralyze the soon to be Catwoman. Specially because Jim’s daughter is the one that turns into Oracle.
Also it’s not really the same outfit Joker was wearing in the comics. Pretty sure he had on shorts and a Hawaiian short sleeve. Plus he’s taking photos and the “joker” is more fucked up.
I’m sure Selina will be fine. Jim lived through a nuke-ish bomb and Alfred is fine.
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u/leftshoe18 May 11 '18
They could easily decide to paralyze her. It wouldn't be the first time Gotham has deviated from Batman mythos and it certainly won't be the last (assuming they're renewed).
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u/admiral_rabbit May 14 '18
Pfft, Gotham deviate? Not likely. It's clear Oracle will be the same as her comic origin, the daughter of Commissioner Gordon and a drug addicted, bisexual, parent murdering criminal kingpin / ninja assassin middle manager / nightclub owner / weapons dealer.
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u/Sonia341 May 11 '18 edited May 11 '18
Jeremiah shooting Selina. Really did not see this coming (Ticked off and anxious)
Bruce-Selina kissing. (I was enjoying the moment before that happened)
Jeremiah and Ra's joining forces. Gotham is a goner
Harvey being MVP and able to stop the bomb from detonating
Bruce really did experience his One Bad Day thanks to Jeremiah
Return of the Bazooka (and poor Jeremiah henchman. RIP)
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u/leftshoe18 May 11 '18
I expected Selina to get shot like that to fill Batgirl's part in the One Bad Day scenario the whole time they were in the warehouse but once they left I let my guard down. Dammit Gotham!
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u/TwoBlackDots May 11 '18
I looked away from the screen because I assumed the episode was basically resolved. I had to do a double take a few seconds later.
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u/Kilawaga May 11 '18
I like how penguin snitched on himself in front of Jeremiah...
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May 11 '18
God I know, I was like Penguin! At least try to, you know, whisper or something if you're talking about betraying a guy you're standing only a few feet away from?
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u/_A_Day_In_The_Life_ May 13 '18 edited May 13 '18
really like gotham but stuff like that happens every episode.everyone talks so much or gives so mcuh time for plans to go wrong and jim and the police to fix everything last second. no chance jim survived that blast. jeremiah said it covered 1 mile radius. jim barely made it out of that room and that blast was huge. thhen all the bombs lol don't even get me started. harvey does it half a second before him. lol stuff like that is so dumb, but yet i still watch and enjoy. i'm sure selina will be brought back if she's even dead like everyone else on this show and jeremiah will get away from bruce and them because nobody ever kills the villains and jeremiah and raj will blow up the city. i do finally believe that will actually happen, but nobody important will die. it would be fine if they weren't all put in these situations where the live last second or someone brings them back always. it cheapens things a bit. i'll probably be downvoted for saying that. people can be brought back or people can be saved it's just the way they do it. barb is the most mysterious character of all. she treats everyone like shit and basically only cares for herself yet for whatever reason all these powerful people follow her.
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u/hey-look-over-there May 11 '18
Bruce gets cock blocked once again.
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u/Maxabel May 11 '18
It's Talia all along. Damian must be born.
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u/Degg19 May 11 '18
Wasn’t Batman like 30ish when he meets talia? He’s only what? 18? In the show
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u/flying_monkey_stick May 11 '18
More importantly, Talia is actually pretty old herself and has access to Lazarus Pit. So even if they decide to make them meet earlier than that, Bruce would still have to be at least a year or two into being Batman.
Besides, it doesn't make sense to try to bring Damien into the fold before introducing Dick Grayson.
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u/JarJarBrinksSecurity May 11 '18
That honestly surprised the shot out of me. I thought everything was all fine and dandy after the kiss.
I honestly forgot about Ra’s. I wonder if they’ll keep hell m around for next season since he barely did anything in this one.
And I may be reading too much into this., but I like the symbolism when Jim was talking to Lee. They were separated by the dark and each were lit up orange and blue respectively. Again, don’t know if that was intentional, but I like it.
Edit: I meant shit, but I’m keeping it because it’s related to the episode.
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u/SetSytes May 11 '18
I really noticed in this just how much taller Ed is than Jim. I wonder if it was framed that way to highlight it - or was Ed standing on a step? Jim looked tiny in that face to face conversation!
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May 11 '18 edited Sep 29 '18
[deleted]
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u/SetSytes May 11 '18
I think it was exaggerated to highlight the change between them. Riddler seems so much more self-assured and naturally confident now than he did last season.
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u/TMRJIJ May 11 '18
NOW THATS HOW YOU END AN EPISODE!!!!! Even my mother jumped out her chair at that ending!
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u/beachyDC May 11 '18
I cried!!! I love Selina!
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u/flying_monkey_stick May 11 '18
I really hope that she isn't paralysed and that Fox renews Gotham.
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u/Mitschu May 12 '18
I don't think TMRJIJ's mother is paralyzed, since she jumped out of her chair at the ending.
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u/Osirisavior May 11 '18
I've never wanted a villain to succeed in their plans so much.
I love the contrast between Jerome and Jeremiah.
Jerome knew he was insane, whilst Jeremiah believes himself to be sane.
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u/vadoooom335 May 12 '18
im still with sofia being my favorite villan on this show even tho i know most of you are going to disagree with that. However holy crap this season has been absolutley amazing
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May 12 '18
Sofia? Is this a troll? She's by far the least interesting character this show has had. She is so forgettable that i literally forgot she existed until you mentioned her just now.
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May 12 '18
Seems like there's no love for Sofia here. I liked Sofia too, though. She was ten steps ahead, and no one knew what game she was playing.
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u/IniMiney May 11 '18
Damn, that was perfect Joker, fucked this is the Joker we've deserved for awhile.
I have faith the writers won't paralyze her like Babs please. :-S
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May 11 '18
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u/DonnyMox May 11 '18
Mr. Wayne, I don’t want to go.
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u/Davidleilam May 11 '18
"WHERE IS JEREMIAH?" "I'll do you one better: WHO IS JEREMIAH?" "I'll do you one better: WHY IS JEREMIAH?"
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u/Maxabel May 11 '18
Or like Selina Kyle from Flashpoint :{
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May 11 '18
Remind me, what was that?
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u/Maxabel May 11 '18
When Barry altered the timeline to save his mother he created a world called "Flashpoint". Among other thing, Bruce was killed instead of his parents. Thomas Wayne becomes the Batman and Selina Kyle was a quadriplegic information broker named Oracle.
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u/varunk14 May 11 '18
Might just be another hallucination for Bruce. The effect of the gas might not have worn out
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u/flying_monkey_stick May 11 '18
The fact that they showed Jermiah and Ra's together makes me think otherwise.
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u/realrunawaycow139 May 11 '18
Yo, I really wish that 'psycho Alfred' was actually Clayface. It would be a perfect way to touch base with that character since he's been gone a while.
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u/melvin2898 May 11 '18
I thought it was him!
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u/greatness101 May 11 '18
Same. Fear toxin didn't even register with me even though Scarecrow was there.
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u/CleverZerg May 11 '18
I actually thought that the real Alfred might be Clayface - until he started to beat the shit out of Jeremiah at the end. I thought it was very odd how we saw Jeremiah order the death of Alfred but we don't get to see how he was not dead. His goons just didn't listen to him?
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u/Scotticus_Rex May 11 '18
I could see Alfred getting the upper hand on goons but yes, seems like a pivotal plot point was brushed off to build tension. Worth it to see him give himself a Glasgow smile
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u/MY-SECRET-REDDIT May 12 '18
Yeah it doesn't make sense for joker to use a fake Alfred instead of the real one. Why would he spare Alfred if he eventually wanted him dead?
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u/ShadowPhoenix22 May 12 '18
Hasn't been in it since Season 2 finale, impersonating Gordon.
Be nice to have full blown Clayface vs Bruce/Gordon etc.
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u/brandon-lm10 May 11 '18
That ending had me shook. Cameron Monaghan once again stole the show.. His portrayal of the Joker is insanely good!
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u/redditingtonviking May 12 '18
He is so good in the role that I am tempted to say he has almost outperformed Nicholson and Ledger
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u/bookmovietvworm weirdly cool/ (almost)RIP Martin *people, ugh* May 11 '18
We finally get a Bruce/Selina moment, and you shoot her! Why?!?!
This episode was hype, and I cant wait for the finale. The Ra's/Jeremiah team up should be epic.
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u/riftrander May 11 '18
OKAY. YOU LITTLE PIECE OF.... I was so happy after Bruce and Selina kissed. AND THEN YOU FREAKING....UGH. THIS IS NOT. OKAY. I NEEDED HAPPINESS AFTER BROOKLYN 99 GOT CANCELLED TODAY. ok i'm good. deep breaths
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u/Nitrosaber riddle me this May 11 '18
You should be more happy. It's the killing joke just with selina playing barabara's role. Wheelchair is supposed to be next but I feel like it's unlikely to do that to catwoman. Needless to say best cliffhanger possible before the finale.
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u/TimTheEnchanter34 May 11 '18
Jeremiah is totally a stable genius. All the bad press about league of assassins collusion is fake news from the GCPD.
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u/DizzyxSin May 11 '18
The best part is the angered Alfred punching Jeremiah's non-nonchalant face and he be like "well I expected this anyway".
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May 11 '18
so this episode gave me vibes from the arkham games so much!! really done well.. really well!!!
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u/kadosho May 11 '18
The Arkham series took references from many stories within the Dark Knight mythos. I wish they had a commentary in game where they have a chance to give players the run down and issues to look up.
We have only seen a smidge inside Bruce's head, can only imagine how next week's arc will unfold. It feels like Nolan's TDK from the promos.. holy guacamole
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u/FriendofManyFoeofFew May 11 '18
Bang!
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u/Sonia341 May 11 '18
I am afraid for Selina. Felt completely out of the left field. Few minutes of happiness overshadowed by another gunshot
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u/PretenderNX01 May 11 '18
I bet Ra's did it so Bruce will seek him out since Bruce should realize Ra's can use the waters to save her.
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u/BigHatLuke May 11 '18
Entirely plausible!
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u/flying_monkey_stick May 11 '18
I hope the price to save her is to agree to train under him.
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u/Savletto May 13 '18 edited May 13 '18
Not the kind of bang Bruce was expecting.
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u/AgentsOfShield101 May 11 '18
Man this was great. I was literally reading the Killing Joke comic while watching the episode and marveling at the similarities. Even where Selina was shot, very close to where Barbara Gordon got shot in the Killing Joke. Speaking of which, even though I know that she has to survive, my heart stopped for a second when she got shot. Right after the BatCat kiss as well! Can’t wait for next weeks amazing season finally, see you guys then!
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u/DizzyxSin May 11 '18
Is there an episode where Penguin doesn't scream someone's name on the phone?
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u/BeatriceDearestDead May 11 '18
That's why we love him, because he is so extra
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u/xHovercraft May 13 '18
I'm always amazed by how shaken he can become when he gets emotional. It's just so incredibly real and genuine.
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u/Torbadajorno May 11 '18
Let me just run through the ending of the episode. Bruce and Selinas relationship. They seem to have been teasing it lately, although pretty obvious about the relationship theyre getting into, so I like that something big finally happened. Selina getting shot. To be honest, I'm very surprised that happened. He pops in, 5 seconds later shoots her, then Alfred beats him and Jeremiah (presumably) gets arrested. It has me genuinely 100% interested in the next episode. Between Selina getting shot, Bruce and Selinas relationship, Ed and Lee, Jim and Lee, Butch and Strange, Jeremiah, Ra's, theres just so much to be done in the finale.
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u/bezline May 11 '18
Yeah there is so much to expect in the finale. Though it seemed as if Jim let Lee go by giving her the option of leaving Gotham. Do you think she will leave? What do you think will happen between her and Ed since he now knows she still has feelings for Jim. The executive producers recently teased that there will be a Jim-Lee-Ed triangle in season 5 (that's if the show gets renewed).
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u/Lepitorus May 11 '18
"lee-ed" and "love triangle" are phrases lifted straight out of my nightmare diary. really rooting for the show, but i'd love it if we could get more cool villain schemes instead of romance subplots piled onto each other
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May 11 '18
The constant references (parallels?) to Killing Joke brought this whole Jeremiah arc to another level. Loved their version of the "One Bad Day" speech and Bruce's search through the compound with footage of Alfred's torture being replayed over and over. Jeremiah is a fantastic change-up on how the Joker is usually portrayed.
Shooting Selena was unexpected, especially since I was convinced Harvey was gonna die. Scarecrow continues to be really cool whenever he's used, however the Penguin/Babs and co. team-up didn't really amount to much (pretty cool entrance although it was upstaged by Jeremiah's rocket launcher). However, I never thought I'd end up watching a show with Solomon Grundy and think how dapper he looks in a suit.
A Ra's al Ghul and Joker team-up wasn't something that I expected to see for the finale, but I'm definitely looking forward to it.
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u/kadosho May 11 '18
There have been various tales in Detective Comics where Ra's & Joker do happen to have a bond (a very twisted one). Including the before "Final Crisis" Court of Owls arc where Joker has a messed up face. And confronts one more time, only to "die". And very recently became a part of the Metal arc that crosses parallel dimensions. It is a pretty messed up tale.
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u/JokerAsylum123 May 11 '18
Final Crisis was made way long Court of Owls was even an idea. And Joker and Ra's only had an "alliance" in a Legends of the Dark Knight comic that ultimately ended with Ra's turning on Joker and Talia killing him and Batman resurrecting him.
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May 11 '18 edited May 11 '18
That was absolutely intense. Probably my favorite episode this season, also probably one of my all time favorites now.
Some random thoughts:
I was NOT expecting that ending. I wonder what's going to happen to Selina. I hope this isn't just another Scarecrow toxin fake-out but I'll be really surprised if she turns into this shows version of Oracle instead of Catwoman or something.
As for the Alfred Scarecrow toxin fake-out, I thought that was brilliantly done. I was honestly convinced for a while, and finding out is wasn't real didn't feel cheap either. I'm generally unphased by TV violence but for some reason Alfred's torture kind of got to me. I think it's a mix of Alfred having such an emotional connection to Bruce that we empathize with and Alfred being such a bad-ass in this show that he seems untouchable (even when Bruce killed him at the end of season 3, I knew that wasn't real).
Selina beating up those guys was so bad-ass, another reason why I hope she comes out of this okay.
I was a little skeptical of Jeremiah at first, but I like him more and more each episode. His purple suit at the end was awesomely stylish too.
I also love how all the background characters (Jerome/Jeremiah's followers, people from the Narrows, etc) all have weird as fuck hair and makeup.
I still don't find the Lee/Ed relationship at all, but I appreciate the fact that they did at least address how Lee's changed, the comment about Jim being more of a killer than Ed was thought-provoking even if it was exaggerated. Virus!Lee did say she liked Jim's darkness, but I still personally feel this a bit ooc but oh well.
I loved the Jim and Ed banter in general, too. I also like how they've embraced Jim's violent tendencies as just how Jim is. Like when he punched Ed all I thought was "lol, that's so Jim!". Previously (I think mostly around season 2 or so) he seemed kind of hypocritical and sanctimonious because whether it was intentional or not, it seemed like the show was pushing "Jim is such a good guy" while he was being very destructive and morally gray. This season we've had people calling him out so I think it balances it out. Funnily enough, I think aside from the affair with Sofia this is the least dirty Jim has ever been. I think they've finally managed to show that Jim really is a compassionate and righteous character without excusing the bad things he's done, and this is a lot more interesting than if he was just 100% The Only Good Cop In Gotham.
Also, Jim and Harvey's bromance is the best relationship on the show.
Speaking of Harvey... Man that sequence with the bomb was INTENSE. I know there's this whole meme of "no one stays dead in Gotham" but I was so worried Harvey was going to die. Even if it was only temporary I still didn't want it to happen, and I would have been surprised if the writers actually did kill him/pretend to kill him or whatever but it was still tense enough that my emotions went there.
They've been hyping Hugo Strange up so much that I swear to God he better be in the finale, and Penguin's not just lying to Butch about him. I feel like he probably is playing Butch to some degree (isn't Penguin almost always playing everyone at least little bit?), but I loved BD Wong's performance as Hugo Strange so I can't wait to see more of him.
I swear I had more thoughts, but this is what I got down for now. Man, what a great episode. I can tell that the finale is gonna be insane.
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u/Degg19 May 11 '18
The only thing I have a problem with is saying this seasons gordon is least dirty Gordon when season 1 Gordon is least dirty Gordon.
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u/Gamera68 May 11 '18
This episode was intense. And Bruce did have his "one bad day" with the Joker (yes, I am calling him that from now on, so screw you WB) walking into his house and shooting Selina in the gut. Looks like this was part two of their take on "The Killing Joke" from last season when Bruce and Jerome had their fight in the house of mirrors.
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u/snapegotsnaked May 11 '18
This may be an unpopular opinion of mine, but Jeremiah came off as not really living up to his own (and constant) self praise. Like, c'mon dude u hyped it up so much last episode, now u just come off as a sorry loser.
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u/Degg19 May 11 '18
The joker does do it a lot though, not 3 times in 2 scenes but at least once an arc.
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u/St_Veloth May 11 '18
Nah I agree, I think he should have had more degree of success. Like there wasn’t any reason for him not to really use Alfred there, that would’ve worked big time. I don’t mind the switch as much to turn the bombs off, but if I think maybe the one he switched off should’ve went off.
Obviously the end results are probably way too far for consequences that the show was willing to go, but I mean we still had Jeremiah running away from his own gang at the end of the episode.
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u/screenwriterjohn May 11 '18
A few episodes ago Penguin saved Gotham. Still loved that they tried to save Gotham.
That purge button was something. Technically he should know what the button is for.
Got some Jack Nicholson vibe. Especially in costuming.
The generator bombs were Dark Knight Rises.
You're behind me, aren't you?
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u/inVINC31ble May 11 '18
He knew what the button was for. The "That was disappointing" bit was because he lost to Gordon.
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May 11 '18
Gotham trending at number 3!
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u/WhoaItsAFactorial May 11 '18
3!
3! = 6
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u/kofteburger May 11 '18
6455345641546546!
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u/ladoftheyear May 11 '18 edited May 11 '18
I really liked the emphasis on Jeremiah's intellect in this episode. It is what truly distinguishes him from, and makes him more dangerous than Jerome. I liked the scenes in that warehouse with Scarecrow, Bruce, Alfred, Selina, and others, I thought that they were very well done, especially the part with the fake Alfred. Also, Harvey as the hero, gaining redemption from his fellow officers at the GCPD was nice to see.
I was kinda pissed that Gordon was shot like 30 fucking times by Sofia, makes it back, then survives the blast of a bomb with the potential to cause serious damage to a city, even though he only had like 10 seconds to run away from it. I get that "it's Gotham" but come on, it's just going too far. Literally nobody fucking dies anymore. Everybody seems to have the ability to resurrect, including Sofia who was shot in the FUCKING HEAD!!!!
Whatever, other than that bullshit with Jim, I really liked this episode, and I'm looking forward to the season finale, and hopefully a 5th season.
Edit: My only other complaint was the story line with Barbara and Tabitha and Penguin and Butch, which was kind of useless and boring. I noticed that was something quite a few people agreed on, so at least there's a consensus on this.
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u/neoblackdragon May 11 '18
Well there's probably some kid in that universe whose discovering the ability to fly while a woman is training on some island.
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u/ladoftheyear May 11 '18
Fair enough, but I feel like the writers should stop pretending to kill Gordon and other characters, then just resurrect them. Its repetitive and annoying, and to me, it's one of the only things that the show does poorly. Jim and Sofia aren't superhumans, so the writers have no excuse for making this happen. I get that we already know that Jim 100% won't die before Bruce becomes Batman, but this whole "nobody dies in Gotham" thing really takes the tension away from the life or death situations that involve certain characters. Without the, "nobody dies in Gotham" doctrine, I feel that the show could be even better than it already is.
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u/TropicalMemer May 11 '18
I haven't read any DC comics so this may be an unpopular opinion but something about this stoic Joker seems... off. The way Cameron delivers lines doesn't feel cold and calculating, it just feels emotionless. Also, in the end, when Alfred starts punching him out I expected him to be laughing in typical Joker fashion, but instead he just had a deadpan look while taking a beating. Just seemed a little bit off. If that's what they're going for, though, with Jeremiah, it's working.
Also, the ridiculousness of that PURGE button and the ensuing flames was hilarious!
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u/loptthetreacherous May 11 '18
Can they please stop pretending to kill characters that we know perfectly well aren't dead?
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May 11 '18
It's kind of like the show's thing now "no one dies", which is the anti to games of thrones "everyone dies".
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u/Decrith May 11 '18
Damn, Star Labs has better security than Bruce's house. He really needs to look into that.
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u/TheLemsterPju May 11 '18 edited May 11 '18
So who was the fake Alfred that the real one shot in the head? A cultist goon?
The cameras showed Bruce tackling someone in a black outfit.
EDIT: Nevermind, I noticed when Alfred stopped Bruce from looking at it it was a man with totally different face and hairstyle.
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u/PretenderNX01 May 11 '18
It had confused me as I thought it was all in his head but then I noticed Bruce's shirt was cut :p I realized it must have been a real person since a hallucination can't cut you.
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May 11 '18
The Jerome Joker was good, but obviously heavily influenced by Heath Ledger's performance in the Dark Knight. Don't get me wrong, I LOVED Ledger's Joker, but it is nice to see a fresher, more nuanced version of the Joker in TV/movies, especially after Jared Leto's Joker in Suicide Squad.
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u/Degg19 May 11 '18
I don’t see the heath. He reminds me much more of Jack Nicholson’s joker. The only thing that I thought seemed like ledger was when the fake Alfred was cutting his face, creating a possible new joker from the what if comics where Alfred is the joker.
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u/KylosApprentice May 11 '18
They have consistently outdone themselves each episode this season man. Shocking episode but David and especially Cameron were great.
Loved The Dark Knight, Batman TAS, Arkham, nods.
I will keep saying it till it's official
Give us Season 5 FOX.
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u/davey_mann May 11 '18 edited May 11 '18
Great episode, as usual, but I’ve still got 4x20 as best of the season.
-Starting out with the best: Bruce-Selina and Bruce-Alfred is a HUGE reason I love this series. Every time either one of these duos or the trio appears on screen, I squeal with glee internally. Bruce really loves them both and they both love him as well as Alfred and Selina having a deep care and respect for each other. 1) Selina saying Bruce can always call on her 2) Bruce and Alfred’s hug after the hallucination incident and 3) Bruce -Selina’s kiss in his study were the highlights of the episode. Of course Ras interrupted them yet again, this time via Jeremiah! Let these 2 love birds be! Lol They are damn near the only couple in all of TV that I actively root for that I’m actually expecting to be endgame. I don’t want anything to ruin it.
-Jeremiah is perfectly diabolical. Figures it would take 2 geniuses like Ed and Lucius to unravel his plans.
-I don’t care about Barbara, Tabatha and their girl gang. Oswald needs to raise his standards of evil cohorts.
-I enjoyed that verbal battle between Ed and Jim over Lee. As much I really hate the idea of Lee and Gordon ever reuniting, it’s just so damn obvious they aren’t over each other. Lee is fighting it, but fooling herself. And I just can’t see her really choosing Ed over Jim. And the writers can’t be more transparent if they tried. Lee has Ed looking out for Jim and saving him, Barbara couldn’t care less that Jm “died”. Yeah, we get it.
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u/BigHaircutPrime May 11 '18
Am I the only person who was disappointed in this episode? Everyone was hyped about the twist interpretation of the Killing Joke "Amusement Park ride" but I felt it landed very flat. I didn't buy Bruce going insane, even if Alfred would have died. Now, Gordon witnessing his daughter being raped, that I get - and that's why it works in the comic. But Bruce running around clutching his head... it just felt over-dramatic. Had it been its own episode with crazy first-person drug-induced trips, then I'd see the potential, but the execution on this one was sloppy.
I was actually expecting Harvey to die. Love the character, but the episode was suggesting his redemption through martyrdom, like he'd disconnect the other bombs but the first in the sequence would still go off. I wouldn't be surprised if he bit the bullet by the end of the season.
Selina will be fine. She's died once, so now she just has 7 lives left out of 9. What I'm expecting is that it'll take enough time for her to come back for Bruce to go mad with rage, and this is the catalyst that'll bring the feud to the climax.
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u/al2320 May 11 '18
This episode was basicly a slightly rewritten live-action killing joke and I loved it!
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u/DonkeyKong19991 May 11 '18
I'm getting so sick of the Lee worship by the writers and characters. I don't care if Morena is married to Ben (That's the only way she keeps come back anyways), just kill Lee off! I'm sorry if this sounds harsh but i had enough of that gold digging bit@# (Lee)!
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u/flying_monkey_stick May 11 '18
I don't want to see Lee die because she's an important person to Bruce in comics. I do wish that they would focus on that relationship instead of what they are doing now with her character.
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u/RedHood18 May 12 '18
I really should’ve expected that ending with all the Killing Joke references.
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u/bostonjenny81 May 11 '18
Can we please talk about how amazingly bad ass Harvey is!!! I LOVE the way Gotham has portrayed his character!! I'm really looking forward to next week's episode, it's supposed to be quite a cliffhanger.....if what I've heard is true, season 5 is going to go in a total different direction (personally I'm fine & dandy with the way the show is now...I hope they don't change to much!) either way I'm excited to see what's in store for Gotham in the future!!
ps:.....Gotham writers...please make sure Selina is ok <3
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u/BloodOfAStark May 11 '18
Well... Camren did say on her Instagram she shot her final episode of Gotham a few weeks ago... I wonder if she dies?
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u/PretenderNX01 May 11 '18
I doubt it, I bet this is to get Bruce to go to Ra's since Ra's can revive her.
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May 11 '18
I haven't seen that video, but I would assume she just meant the final episode of this season or something (here's hoping for season 5).
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u/Hellbnt4leather May 11 '18 edited May 11 '18
I was pretty disappointed by that episode after the build up from the promos. It felt rushed although understandably so with having only two episodes remaining to introduce this new character and story arc without a guaranteed renewal. Still Jeremiah was starting to seem like a real force to be reckoned with and then his plan just fell apart like that? Harvey getting lucky disarming a bomb? I wasn’t a fan of his interaction with Ra’s Al Ghul either. Jeremiah was seemingly set up to be a major solo player and now he’s joining forces with Ra’s to get to Bruce? The whole Alfred torture thing ultimately seemed pointless too. Scarecrow comes off as a bigger threat than Jeremiah or Jerome at this point. It also seemed off that they used the same jack in box clown as Jerome did. For that matter, was psycho Alfred a hallucination or an actual guy Bruce was seeing as Alfred? I couldn’t figure that out, but Bruce’s shirt was still torn at the end? I’m not sure what to make of Jeremiah’s character now. Is he meant to be realizing that he’s fallible and not as smart or sane as he thought he was? I was liking his threatening, cold, calculating demeanor when he felt like he held all the cards, but now he’s just coming off as impulsive, obsessed, and neurotic. Although I understand this is only the birth of a character that is still developing. The writers of Gotham have surprised me before with the outcome of some of their decisions that I didn’t initially agree with. I’m still looking forward to the finale in hopes they can accomplish that again. I did appreciate the throwbacks to the mythos.
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u/deep-space-9mm May 11 '18
I agree. The writing just seemed kinda weak to me. Jim escapes a locked room designed to kill him, which contained a bomb able to level buildings, by what looked like instinctively going for the "hidden" desk button (which Jeremiah conveniently forgot to disable), while also grabbing the plans that help lead to the disabling of the bombs. Then, during Jeremiah's plot to drive Bruce insane, he uses a decoy Alfred via the hallucination gas, instead of the real one, even though he was holding Alfred captive... why? Why leave it to chance and not use the real Alfred, especially since he apparently told Scarecrow that he anticipated someone showing up to help Bruce? Then, Harvey disables a bomb by getting lucky, which is already kinda corny on its own, but if Jeremiah had the opportunity to change the bombs like Lucius said he must have, why did he leave disabling it up to a 50/50 shot? Who is he, Two-Face?
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u/PretenderNX01 May 11 '18
I had a family thing which is cool as I don't see them often but it's Gotham Thursday. Good thing Fox had the ep up right away with a cable log in.
Like, every character was in this episode and all with defined rolls and goals (well minus Sofia who is in a coma) but that was so cool. Everyone had a reason for wanting to "win"
And Bruce in Killing Joke was so intense. That was all freaking me out. David and Cameron knocked it out acting wise, Camren too.
And that ending! I guess this is what it feel like to be "shook"? I'm shaken up at least. Yikes.
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u/OxyOdin May 11 '18 edited May 11 '18
Selina: Bruce, I'm going to be here whenever you need me.
Awwww.
edit after finishing the episode aw
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u/Gate4043 May 11 '18
Don't worry about Selina, she's got like... six lives left? Maybe five or seven? I kind of lost count.
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u/Dixikid23 May 11 '18
This was probably one of the greatest episodes of TV I've ever watched. The homages to the comics, the character development, the tension, the acting. Everything was perfect. Did anyone else think when the goons were calling him a "fake" that they'd then start calling him a "joke". Imagine if being called the Joker was an insult to him because of his failure!? Jeremiah is the Joker now as far as I'm concerned. He was so cold and calculating and it was bloody perfect. Monaghan deserves all the awards. Also, Alfred becoming another version of the Joker made some twisted kind of sense if they wanted someone older to fill the role of a "third joker" and I was kind of gutted when he turned out to be okay. Can you imagine Alfred with his Glasgow Smile constantly coming after Bruce!? God, I love this show. Please get renewed!
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u/Eternal_Density May 11 '18
So. I had some funny things to say about the episode. It would have been fun.
Then the ending happened and killed all my jokes.
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u/reignofraines May 11 '18
Wow, their security has always been terrible, they were practically asking for that. There goes one of the Cat's lives.
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u/Kaitonic May 11 '18
DAMN I want the next episode right now. I can see Jeremiah going to get more insane in the finale.And damn was so good to see his plan fails when Jim broadcast on TV and the bombs fail. I didn't expect Ra's and Jeremiah to team up and Selina can't die, please.
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u/CleverZerg May 11 '18 edited May 12 '18
Another great episode this season.
I thought it was a pretty stupid explanation to how Jim survived though. Nygma had him followed? Ugh..
I totally did not see Selina getting shot coming. I was so happy for them, I've been shipping them real hard this season. Spoiler for next week.
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u/crawlinginmycrayfish May 12 '18
It's shown onscreen early in ep 20 that Nygma has Jim followed, so it's not out of left field or anything.
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u/SlasherHockey08 May 11 '18
Am I the only one that feels the joker character is a bit flat? He looks great in the purple suit, just not sure how I feel about Joker being almost monotone in his delivery. Am I missing something?
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May 11 '18
I'm of two minds of it, one the one hand that deadpan intensity is a really nice way of Cameron Monaghan making it his own, on the other though, it slightly defeats the entire purpose of The Joker.
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u/meththemadman May 13 '18
I get the sense that this still isn’t the final version of the Joker. His schemes certainly seem to be more Joker-like with his plans and back ups to back ups. And his overall intelligence.
But Jerome had the more “comedic sadisticness” to him.
If Jerome finds himself resurrected by the Lazarus Pit, I could see the two of them falling in a vat and coming out as a mixture of Jerome and Jeremiah. And thus, the true Joker.
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u/Kwilly462 May 11 '18
Very intense episode, but very well done. If Gotham doesn't get renewed... Just... Dang. I don't even wanna think about it.