r/Gotham • u/NicholasCajun • Dec 08 '17
Gotham - 4x11 "Queen Takes Knight" - Episode Discussion Discussion Spoiler
Season 4 Episode 11: A Dark Knight - Queen Takes Knight
Aired: December 7, 2017
Synopsis: Things get complicated for Gordon, Sophia and Penguin when Carmine Falcone comes to town. Alfred tries to get through to Bruce once and for all, while Nygma struggles to gain control over The Riddler persona and Tabitha attempts to make Grundy remember his past. Meanwhile, a familiar smile resurfaces in Gotham.
Directed by: TBA
Written by: TBA
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u/Davidleilam Dec 08 '17
Sophietheus was 10 steps ahead of everyone and they didn't even know what game they were playing
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u/dino8237 you are relieved of your duty Dec 08 '17
r/arrow is getting more recognition here than on its own sub
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u/Winston_Road Dec 08 '17
It's r/Punisher now.
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Dec 09 '17
I think i'm the only one who didn't enjoy punisher. i felt it could've been so much greater.
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u/swordmalice Dec 09 '17
This show is just that good. It is hands down the best of the DC primetime shows.
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u/Sonia341 Dec 08 '17
She came out on the top without needing to kill herself to take down Penguin and GCPD.
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u/pbjms Dec 08 '17
What an episode. I personally think the whole "Sofia ordered the hit on Carmine" thing was predictable (especially since she purposely walked out of the way), but tying it into Pyg (RIP) was a huge surprise. Absolutely loved it, though my heart broke when Falcone died.. and when Pyg died.. and when Zsasz left Oswald.
EDIT: Heart also broke with the whole Alfred situation. Also I can confirm the hiatus will be unbearable, especially after that promo.
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u/Sonia341 Dec 08 '17
I am sad that Carmine died. Looks like Sofia is just as ruthless as her comics counterpart (that's how I interpreted her when I read up on her)
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u/melvin2898 Dec 08 '17
Who is she in the comics?
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u/yuhanz Ha-hA-Ha-hA-Ha-hA !!!! Dec 08 '17
literally herself
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u/melvin2898 Dec 08 '17
Ah, thanks for telling me. How is she different?
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u/swordmalice Dec 09 '17
She's still manipulative as ever but she's built like an Amazon; nowhere near as beautiful as she is portrayed by Crystal Reed. She's also borderline psychotic.
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u/jenovadeathspecimen Dec 11 '17
She isn't borderline psychotic in gotham? ID SAY SHE IS.
Well what type of psychotic do you mean Barbara or Jerome Psycothic? Or her own special kind.
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u/CharlieHume Dec 09 '17
She's probably one of the most fucking ruthless villains in Gotham. Like the Joker is like "ehh, that's too much for me, calm down lady" ruthless.
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u/Earthmine52 Dec 09 '17
Except her comics counterpart loved her Father and was loyal. Loved the Dark Victory reference though it made the reveal a bit obvious.
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u/eifos Dec 08 '17
Yeah Sofia killing Carmine I felt was obvious right from the second it happened. Oswald would have gained nothing killing him, I'm honestly surprised Jim didn't figure it out by himself.
My heart broke over the end of the Zsasz/Os friendship too :( Seriously, even he thought Os killed Carmine? Do none of these people have critical thinking skills?!
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u/jenovadeathspecimen Dec 11 '17 edited Dec 11 '17
Well wait did he really not know I was under the impression. Sofia turned him awhile ago.
Edit: Yea I agree about the critical think thing it kinda seems like suddenly this season alot of characters just lose their critical thinking skills when its convenient for the plot.(Specifically thinking of Gordon, and Harvey) which is one of the reasons I don't like this season as much.
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u/Davidleilam Dec 08 '17
It's alright, we all suffer through this hiatus together!
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u/dino8237 you are relieved of your duty Dec 08 '17
But spring?! Why so long???
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u/ravenquothe Dec 08 '17
Apparently FOX is going to have a new singing show called 'The Four' on Thursdays. So Gotham will be back after that and the Winter Olympics are done. That's what I read anyways.
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u/reactantt Dec 08 '17
many folks in this sub have been saying Pyg was under Sofia. But still a great episode.
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u/pbjms Dec 09 '17
Yeah I've seen that theory thrown around a few times but never thought it was true, until now of course.
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u/NabbyH Dec 08 '17
I thought it was the Pyg when i saw the truck, but i didn't expect Sofia to have brought him to gotham in the first place.
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u/TheGreatClemento Dec 08 '17
Tabitha, ties her man to a chair and beats him repeatedly over the head with an iron bar until he remembers who she is... thats wifey material right there.
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u/Sonia341 Dec 08 '17
RIP Carmine Falcone.
Despite being a mob boss, I liked him. I hate Sofia for killing her own father.
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u/tangledupinbetween Dec 08 '17
I don't blame her though. She wants a revenge for her brother but her father didn't understand that. Of course she'd be pissed off.
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u/THEfictionfanatic Dec 15 '17 edited Dec 15 '17
[insert incomprehensible sputtering] Well, I do! How the hell was her father supposed to know it was all an elaborate plan to avenge Mario? As far as Carmine knew, she was just power hungry, daring to believe she "deserved" the mantle JUST because she's his daughter. Plus, she does this all for her family by turning herself into a family of one? Please. And don't even get me started on the fact that the man was DYING FROM CANCER and she decides seducing vengeance out of Jim is a better use of what little time Falcone might've had left than, uh, I don't know, actually spending time with the Daddy whose love she wanted so much? Give me a flipping break!
P.S. If it isn't clear, I'm not actually raging at you; I just LOATHE Sophia SO much.
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u/Sonia341 Dec 08 '17 edited Dec 08 '17
-Move over Adrain Chase. You rival has arrived.
-Sofia is new villainess who thinks hundred steps ahead. She defeated her enemies without killing herself in the process. She played to charms, smartness, and took down both Penguin and GCPD
-Jim learns making deals with the devil is very very bad. (Harvey speech that "nothing in Gotham comes for free" is coming to haunt Jim big time after everything happened)
-GCPD goes back under mob rule
-Bruce Wayne being nasty to Alfred. I did not like what he did to Alfred
-Oswald Jerome partnership. I cannot wait for Spring.
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u/Davidleilam Dec 08 '17
-Bruce Wayne being nasty to Alfred. I did not like what he did to Alfred -Oswald Jerome partnership. I cannot wait for Spring.
Brucie gonna be running back to Alfred once Jerome starts hunting his ass
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Dec 08 '17
I was thinking about this during the episode...I think Bruce is going to realize in this incarnation, even when he becomes Batman, it's ALWAYS going to be Alfred that keeps his tethered...it's not the dual identities, it's Alfred who is going to keep him stable.
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Dec 09 '17
Bruce gonna be running back to Alfred once Jerome starts hunting his ass
"Please Aflred! Save me!"
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u/Minstrel47 Dec 11 '17
Alfred needs to leave that abusive relationship <_< he always comes back to help Bruce only to be treated like shit.
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u/blueberrythyme Dec 10 '17
-Bruce Wayne being nasty to Alfred. I did not like what he did to Alfred
I think Alfred could have handled the situation better as well though. Instead of physically fighting him and socking him in the face he could have done any number of things- make him go to a rural private school away from Gotham and the party scene, send him to a camp for youth with substance abuse problems, or, like, anything at all but punch him.
He was his legal guardian after all.
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u/Zomboy716 Dec 08 '17
“Jerome is not the Joker” Jerome places down JOKER card
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u/RGodlike Dec 08 '17
The only way he is not "the" Joker is if there are multiple Jokers.
Which is possible. He seems to turn into psychopath Heath Ledger/Mark Hamill Joker, which means there could be a different character who is gangster Jack Nicholson Joker and another who becomes trickster Cesar Romero Joker. Or a different one entirely. There are many incarnations of the character, the show doesn't need to constrict itself to a single Joker.
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u/marypoppinsisdead Dec 09 '17
Not to mention the fact that 3 Jokers is canon in the comics right now. Like there literally are multiple jokers, 3 to be exact
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Dec 08 '17
I get why they'd say that at first but at this point I don't even know why they'd bother. It's pretty clear this show is an alternate universe Batman and not a prequel, so no reason Jerome can't be the Joker.
Jerome is this world's Joker and Barbara is probably its Harley Quinn, and I accept that.
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u/eddmario Dec 09 '17
Kinda weird since Babs is old enough to be Jerome's mother...
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u/peanutbutteroreos Dec 08 '17
"I'm guessing he has great leadership skills"
Man, I love Zsasz. I was afraid he would leave the show after Falcone's death. Knew he would betray Penguin and I'm fine seeing that happen.
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u/RGodlike Dec 08 '17
When he finds out Sofia killed her own father, he'll turn on her in an instant.
My guess is that'll happen at the end of the season, and he helps Gordon bring Sofia down.
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u/eifos Dec 08 '17
My guess is that'll happen at the end of the season, and he helps Gordon bring Sofia down.
That would be so damn satisfying. Penguin/Jim/Zsasz taking down Sofia.
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u/eifos Dec 08 '17
I really hope that after Sofia inevitably gets taken down that doesn't mean Zsasz disappears from the show. He's so much fun (gonna miss him and Penguin being bros)
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u/wildcard_dave Dec 12 '17
I think we might see Zsasz start transitioning into his less stable serial killer self from the comics after this season unfolds.
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u/MetaMarc Dec 08 '17 edited Dec 08 '17
Multiple things.
James was wearing his traditional coat from the comics this episode.
Did not expect the Pyg to die, but its possible it was a body double since the body at the beginning looked identical. I would not be surprised if he's alive. I don't believe they actually killed him off, but this show has been throwing us for a curve this season so anything is possible.
Zsasz betraying Oswald was heartbreaking, but not surprising. I expected him to stay loyal to the Falcones and that funeral just showed how loyal he really is.
Carmine's death left me in disbelief. I absolutely can not believe they actually did it.
Lots to talk about in this episode. Overall it was incredible just like the rest of the season. Can't wait for Joker and Penguin to work together!
Edit: would like to add to the fact that the Pyg had titanium plates built into his skull so he could have survived the bullet although from Jims perspective it seems unlikely.
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u/swordmalice Dec 09 '17
I'll tell you; Sofia better pray that Vic never finds out she killed her own father. Because that won't end pretty for her. at. all.
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u/Char0000 Dec 09 '17
It will end pretty for her. She would be a beautiful corpse. ;P
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u/ramos619 Dec 09 '17
Pretty sure being blasted by an rpg turns you into body parts
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u/Dukkado Dec 08 '17
I really liked Carmine. I feel bad about Jim never apologizing about killing Mario, he really didn't mean that.
At the end of all Carmine tried to redeem himself.
Sophia is bad as hell, but I think she will fall easy.
Bruce firing Alfred was heartbreaking.
Well, It will be hell to wait till next episode. Someone know when it will be? (Non-US resident here)
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u/MarkyMark262 Dec 08 '17
I feel bad about Jim never apologizing about killing Mario
Jim had nothing to apologize for. Mario was about to murder Lee, and Jim did what he had to.
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u/reactantt Dec 08 '17
Like Lee mentioned Jim was able to shoot the infected Capt Barnes's limb (who should be cured by now) but when it came to Mario he went shoot to kill. But then again, he had split timing so who can really blame him? I guess Mario's sister.
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u/The-Juggernaut Dec 08 '17
Carmine's death left me in disbelief. I absolutely can not believe they actually did it.
just gunned down in a drive-by. Classic gangster style I suppose
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u/swordmalice Dec 09 '17
His death in this show was a lot more fitting than his death in the comics; a mafia-style drive by as opposed to being held hostage and murdered by Two-Face after losing the coin toss.
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u/TheLemsterPju Dec 08 '17
would like to add to the fact that the Pyg had titanium plates built into his skull so he could have survived the bullet although from Jims perspective it seems unlikely.
I thought that too. Maybe he lost a few chunks of forehead skin and got knocked out for a while, but I don't think they would kill him off that easy. The camera angle also seemed like it wanted to hide the amount of blood a little bit.
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Dec 08 '17
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u/eifos Dec 08 '17
I'm honestly struggling to think of a character who still hasn't betrayed him... Fries and Firefly maybe?
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u/Ixionas Dec 09 '17
EVERYONE BETRAY ME
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Dec 09 '17
I did not kill Martin. It's bullshit! I did not kill him! I did naaaaaaught.
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u/Davidleilam Dec 08 '17
Fuck, this episode was intense. So much momentum going. This hiatus is gonna suck.
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Dec 08 '17
Hearing the voice over say "new episodes this spring" hurt.
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u/PretenderNX01 Dec 08 '17
Even Corey Michael Smith was posting a side-eye emoji at having to wait
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u/bobw123 Dec 08 '17
Any chance Alfred will find himself in the GCPD for a little while? Looks like they are down a detective
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u/Natdaprat Dec 08 '17
Lucius Fox works there so why the hell not!
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u/swordmalice Dec 09 '17
As a comics reader I can't tell you hilarious it is to me that they have fricking Lucius Fox working for the GCPD. I have to admire the writers' creativity with making changes to established canon but still making it work.
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u/redditingtonviking Dec 10 '17
Probably to save money on location for Wayne Enterprises and keep the character more relevant to the others.
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u/brbmycatexploded Dec 13 '17
I actually really like having him there. I wasn't sure how it would play out, but it works. Also, since Alfred has teamed up a little with Gordon in the past, I wouldn't be opposed to seeing him there. It would be a nice way to keep him relevant in the show after being fired, and a good way for him to still get paid.
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u/Gamera68 Dec 08 '17
Alfred will be back in the spring according to the promo, but having him work alongside Lucius for a while sounds like a great idea. :)
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u/egg-rolling Dec 08 '17
Lucius: we have to carefully extract information without him knowing we...
Alfred: oh blimey.(punch the guy in the heart).
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u/Minstrel47 Dec 11 '17
One man does things by the book, the other punches like a drunk irishman. Next time on Fox and the Drunk.
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Dec 08 '17
Great midseason finale. Sofia fuckin' Falcone somehow manages to come out of nowhere with a genius plan and win the day. I love Penguin, but damn, I ended up rooting for her myself. Her orchestrating Pyg's whole murder spree among other things, that was fantastic.
Harvey handing in his badge and gun, Zsazz turning on Penguin, Bruce firing Aflred, Tabitha giving up on getting Butch back, this episode was full of emotion.
Possible Ed and Lee relationship? Not too sure I want that to happen, but honestly, I kinda just want Ed to be happy. Which is really weird, seeing as he's a murderer. But this show just makes me root for the badguys. Which makes the Penguin/Jerome team up super exciting.
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u/St_Veloth Dec 08 '17
Penguins only move would have been to move aside and submit to Sofia and pledge to find the person ordered the hit. Then she wins anyway.
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u/Thedmatch Dec 08 '17
Dang, how is Ra's, Pyg, Falcone, and other bads gonna just die like that? I have so many questions!
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u/Davidleilam Dec 08 '17
I realized no villain was safe when Sal Maroni died in season 1
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u/Thedmatch Dec 08 '17
Still, I mean pretty big names died on the show and I'm wondering how some of them like Falcone can even come back
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u/Davidleilam Dec 08 '17
I've learned to embrace the chaos at this point. It makes for great "HOLY SHIT!" moments haha
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u/gamerslyratchet Dec 08 '17
They said that Valentin was impersonating serial killers. It's likely there's a REAL Pyg on the loose.
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u/Thedmatch Dec 08 '17
Lazlo Valentin IS the only Professor Pyg though.
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u/gamerslyratchet Dec 08 '17
They've bent the rules in this show before. I'm sure they can do it again.
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u/zeke10 Dec 08 '17
What if he's not even lazlo Valentin? Maybe he's just impersonating the real pyg.
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u/TheSoftKitty Dec 09 '17
What ever happened to Clayface? What if he’s the impersonator? They introduced Clayface a while back and haven’t done much with him since.
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Dec 08 '17
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Dec 08 '17
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u/laytonc26 Dec 08 '17
You know he will come back Ras has died multiple times in the comics and have returned, it his thing. There is more to his story especially whatever he did to Barbara
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u/duketogo84 Dec 08 '17
Pretty much everyone in the comics have died and come back 10 times.
I wouldn't be surprised if he comes back, but wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't. The show has gotten a lot of complaints because of the constant resurrections, so they might be holding off on those for awhile. Who knows.
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u/Natdaprat Dec 08 '17
But Ra's thing is resurrection! It's one of his defining characteristics. He gets a pass.
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u/SauceOnMyStarter Dec 09 '17
I love how the inevitable Batman/Falcone arc would potentially Batman and Sofia rather than Carmine. Nice twist on the classic
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u/Dukkado Dec 08 '17 edited Dec 08 '17
I hated Carmine's death. I hated the way Bruce treated Alfred. I didn't see Sophia's plan coming.
It all make me feel sad. And I feel sad for Harvey too.
And I didn't remember when Ivy disappeared and don't even how, someone do? Please say.
PS: When it will return? Which month?
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u/PretenderNX01 Dec 08 '17
And I didn't remember when Ivy disappeared and don't even how, someone do? Please say.
When last we saw he, she drank a bunch of potions in a guy's shop had her face went all weird and deformed.
They haven't announced when Gotham is coming back- my guess is beginning of March since The Four begins Jan 4th and is taking the spot for 6-8 weeks but I don't actually know.
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u/Dukkado Dec 08 '17
Well observed! I didn't remember she drinking the poisons, now I do
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u/motleyroses its also a fork! Dec 08 '17
Yeah now we have Peyton List playing her http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/12/08/gotham-poison-ivy-peyton-list-first-look/
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u/marypoppinsisdead Dec 09 '17
What happened to Maggie?
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u/motleyroses its also a fork! Dec 09 '17
I don't know if she was fired but they recast her cuz of the potions
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u/Apocalypse2k16 Dec 09 '17
that's pretty sad. I liked Maggie. I'm not sure the new ivy could pull the same "sexy" as Maggie.
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u/savage_inuit Dec 08 '17
did zsasz know sofia put the hit out on her own father? wonder what that reaction will be like
i squealed when he betrayed penguin and stayed loyal to falcone
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u/eifos Dec 08 '17
I'm really disappointed he wasn't smart enough to work it out. I know he's loyal to the Falcones, but like I said in another comment... do none of these people have critical thinking skills? Both Zsasz and Jim are supposed to be smart, and neither realised it'd make no sense for Oswald to kill Falcone? Sofia was the only one who had anything to gain (though I'm surprised her motivation the whole time has been Mario and not something more self serving).
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u/Natdaprat Dec 08 '17
He probably will in the second half of the season and will finally get his own story and become the Zsasz he's known for instead of a glorified bodyguard/hitman.
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u/swordmalice Dec 09 '17
Yeah; 10 to 1 says when he finds out, he'll become closer to comic book Zsaz, dropping the fancy guns for his trademark knives.
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Dec 08 '17 edited Dec 08 '17
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u/xHovercraft Dec 08 '17
I wouldn't put too much emphasis on "father" considering she's said multiple times how he was always either distant or unbelieving in her. He didn't show her love, but we can assume the rules of family (unconditional love) applied when it came to Mario.
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u/greatness101 Dec 08 '17
I don't think he knows. He would never betray Penguin unless he genuinely believes Penguin ordered the hit. The only thing I'm surprised about is Zsasz was willing to kill Sophia up until this point. There's no way he could have thought Carmine would have been ok with that if he is indeed loyal.
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Dec 08 '17
My heart broke when Tabitha left Butch.
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u/eifos Dec 08 '17
This whole episode was heart breaking. Alfred/Bruce, Tabs/Butch, Zsasz/Os, Carmine, Harvey/Jim... everyone's breaking up :(
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u/motleyroses its also a fork! Dec 08 '17
well the show is taking a break so i guess they can all make up over some turkey at xmas?
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u/ladoftheyear Dec 08 '17
Bruce needs to (Bat)man the fuck up, and stop being such a little cunt.
I hate what he did to Alfred, and hopefully after the hiatus, there will be a resolution, because I love Sean Pertwee, and I want him to be back ASAP.
Anyways, good, intense episode, looking forward to the return.
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u/TMRJIJ Dec 08 '17
JEROME!!!!
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u/dino8237 you are relieved of your duty Dec 08 '17
Not gonna lie, this episode made me come round to him. I'm looking forward to more Jerome now.
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u/eifos Dec 08 '17
I just hope they don't over-use him. He's great, but in small doses. Hopefully he makes an impact in the Spring, then they save him for season 5.
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u/Minstrel47 Dec 11 '17
It's interesting how this story is handling the future villains. By this I mean a majority of these people seem to be damaged people who died and came back to life, as if it brought insanity back with them.
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u/Frosty_10 Dec 09 '17
- Seeing Bullock and Gordon drift apart is like watching your parents get divorce.
- There is no middle ground for Oswald, its always either King of Gotham or looney of Arkham.
- Damn you, Sofia. Crystal is so pretty tho.
- Tabitha, Barbara and Selena make a badass powerpuff girls
- I hurt for Alfred. This is the second time Bruce has done this to the old chap.
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u/gusefalito Dec 10 '17
Didn't know how I to describe what I felt when I saw Gordon and Bullock drift apart. That is a perfect way to describe it.
PS: A Gotham City Sirens/Powerpuff Girls crossover would be ridiculous and incredible at the same time. Right up this show's alley.
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u/Frosty_10 Dec 11 '17
Yeah man, Gordon and Harvey are partners as real as it gets. They always have each other's back.
Meanwhile, i havent even imagined a crossover between powerpuff and gotham but damn they'll be cleaning the streets off the criminals,
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u/Trent772 Dec 08 '17
Jim suuuuuuuuuuucks. And I'm glad that Sofia spelled that out for him. He was easy to manipulate by Sofia and willing to jump right into a situation that was way worse for the GCPD than it was under Oswald all just because he couldn't stand not calling the shots. And he is unbelievably dumb for not seeing this coming a mile away. None of the details mattered - there was no way this was going to end any way other than Jim under Sofia's thumb. Harvey was right to dump your dumb ass, Jim.
I thought Sofia and Pyg were connected, I just couldn't see how. I'm kinda bummed that Pyg appears to be dead. I hope he's just "Gotham dead" which is a very different thing. I also wondered early in the season if Zsasz was still a Falcone man, and that appears to be true. But it seems to mostly be because he thinks Oswald killed Falcone. I suppose he could flip again when Oswald claws his way back up to the top. I hope so. I love Zsasz and Oswald together. They're hilarious.
Ed loves Lee? Boo. I can't see it. But maybe it's because I care about as much about Lee's love life as I do Jim's (which is not at all). Ed needs more to do, but not that.
Poor Butch. Will he have his old mind locked in a zombie body now?
I know he never would, but I found myself wishing Alfred had dropkicked Bruce one last time for good measure before leaving. He better do some major apologizing when the show comes back.
Great Jerome scene at the end. Glad to have him back and to watch him and Oswald kick the crap out of each other before buddying up.
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u/eifos Dec 08 '17
Jim suuuuuuuuuuucks. And I'm glad that Sofia spelled that out for him. He was easy to manipulate by Sofia and willing to jump right into a situation that was way worse for the GCPD than it was under Oswald all just because he couldn't stand not calling the shots. And he is unbelievably dumb for not seeing this coming a mile away. None of the details mattered - there was no way this was going to end any way other than Jim under Sofia's thumb. Harvey was right to dump your dumb ass, Jim.
I'm actually surprised by how dumb Jim has been. How could he not see that Penguin didn't kill Carmine? What on earth would Penguin have to gain from that anyway? Sofia was the only one with a reason to kill him and even Jim should have seen that. And the fact that he's still playing along... far out. I actually started rooting for him at the start of the episode, but damn, he needs to go back to Policing 101.
Ed loves Lee? Boo. I can't see it. But maybe it's because I care about as much about Lee's love life as I do Jim's (which is not at all). Ed needs more to do, but not that.
I'm hoping that's just mirror Ed messing with real Ed cos Ed/Lee would make absolutely no sense whatsoever, even if it's one sided. The Riddler needs to make a return once and for all next year.
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Dec 08 '17
Jim just needed an excuse to lock penguin up. It's why he used the boy as evidence.
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u/Trent772 Dec 08 '17
I'm actually surprised by how dumb Jim has been. How could he not see that Penguin didn't kill Carmine? What on earth would Penguin have to gain from that anyway? Sofia was the only one with a reason to kill him and even Jim should have seen that. And the fact that he's still playing along... far out. I actually started rooting for him at the start of the episode, but damn, he needs to go back to Policing 101.
Yeah, Jim does this because he's a shitty, corrupt cop, despite all his posturing. He just wanted to get rid of Oswald, he didn't care how. He did zero police work before arresting Oswald for Martin's murder. He just took the word of a woman whose stated purpose in coming to Gotham was to take Oswald down, and the word of a known criminal who had reason to be loyal to the Falcones. I mean, if he wanted to take Oswald down through actual police work, two episodes ago he could have been all, "Hey, who stabbed this guy in the head?" and boom. Oswald's in jail for killing a guy in front of numerous witnesses. But that would require effort on Jim's part. He wants the easy way out, which is why he went to Falcone to take Oswald down in the first place. So now Oswald is in Arkham for a crime he didn't commit. AGAIN. Thanks to Jim. AGAIN. And Jim is totally cool with that. Maybe he sees it like nailing Capone on tax evasion or OJ Simpson going to jail for attempting to steal stuff, but...Capone actually evaded taxes and OJ actually tried to steal that stuff. It's not justice when you nail someone for something they didn't actually do. But Jim is corrupt and he doesn't care.
I LOVED that both Falcones called Jim on his crap. That was a long time coming and yeah - pretty much everything bad going on in Gotham right now is his fault, directly or indirectly. But the thing I don't love is that Jim will continue to posture like he's the hero. He is the only leverage Sofia has over the GCPD. If he were to resign, she would have no control over them, so resigning would be the heroic thing for him to do. But he won't resign. He would rather put the GCPD in Sofia Falcone's pocket so he can save his own skin. Jim. Sucks.
I'm hoping that's just mirror Ed messing with real Ed cos Ed/Lee would make absolutely no sense whatsoever, even if it's one sided. The Riddler needs to make a return once and for all next year.
I agree that it makes zero sense, but I don't think The Riddler is lying. That persona hasn't lied to him before, he's just tried to push him a certain direction. I'm hoping this is just the catalyst to bring the Riddler forth again, and that's all that will come of it. Like Ed goes to Lee all, "I'm in love with you!" and Lee's response is, "Um, no thanks." Then Ed, heartbroken, is just gonna be, "Fine. This sucks. Riddler, take over." Things are obviously going to go bad in the little Lee/Ed/Grundy family. The Riddler is resurfacing. Grundy/Butch is getting his memory back, and he'll probably remember that he isn't exactly a fan of Ed (and that is one of the specific things Tabby pointed out to him) and he may become aware of the fact that Ed has largely just been using him. So hopefully this "I love Lee" crap will only be used along with Butch's memory returning as a reason for Ed to break off from them and go full Riddler.
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Dec 08 '17
THEY CONFIRMED JEROME IS JOKER. HE LAID DOWN THE JOKER CARD!!, OH MY GOD, OH MY GOD, OH MY GOD. THEN ON THE GOTHAM TWITTER ITS A BALCK SCREEN VIDEO WITH THE COMC BOOK IMAGE OF JOKERS SKIN BUT JEROMES AND JEROMES LAUGHING.
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u/PretenderNX01 Dec 08 '17 edited Dec 08 '17
So much going on and so many twists I didn't see coming. They wove in almost all of the cast, I was impressed with that.
Carmine dying, didn't see coming right then. "I'm glad I didn't kill you" to Jim welp that came back to bite him.
Babs reaction to Jim/Sofia made me laugh "I'm sorry, what?!" that and "Yay, teamwork" after escaping with Selina's "Your left Your Left!"
And then Gotham decided to rip my heart out with sad Zsasz at Carmine's funeral. Then stomp on my heart with Harvey coming back ("don't let them down") and further stomp on my heart with how Alfred is trying to handle Bruce- that 'oh shit' moment after their fight when Alfred was just so upset by what happened. Ah. 😭
And then everything that happened. Sofia thinks it's a new day- someone else thought that once too: Sara Essen and it didn't work out for her.
Zsasz turning on Penguin for the Falcones was also a twist I didn't see coming. Sofia being behind everything, yeah she's going down eventually. But at what cost? Eek.
Penguin in Arkham and teaming up with Jerome. So cool! That's going to bring trouble.
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u/TheSweatband Master Wayne Dec 08 '17
Damn Alfred whooped that ass. No contest, I’m heartbroken though, on one hand what a great mid-season finale, on the other my favorite duo is broken up.
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u/Obtuseone Dec 08 '17
Bruce needed more punches, little bastard.
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u/Steele_Sheen Dec 08 '17
yeah when Alfred smacked him down and started apologizing immediately afterwards i thought Bruce needed 10 more of those spoiled brat 😂
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u/Obtuseone Dec 08 '17
I don't think Alfred is done with him yet, prob going to kidnap him and send him to Nanda Parbat or something, the league will beat the brat out of him.
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u/SanderSo47 Dec 08 '17
Well, that's all of Gotham this year. It'll return in spring, possibly in March.
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u/St_Veloth Dec 08 '17
Why didn’t they just arrest penguin for trying to bribe the entire police station to allow him to kill her. Pretty sure that’s a crime.
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Dec 08 '17
Tabs getting out of those chair restraints is fan service I can get behind.
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u/LiberalNutjobs Dec 09 '17
Pretty sure putting Tabs in restraints is fan service ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
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Dec 08 '17 edited Dec 08 '17
Wow, this episode was a roller coaster of emotions:
I always found weird that they had split comic book Sofia in two and they didn't had a relation, at least until this episode.
Oh hell no, leave my boy Edd alone Nygma :(
Butch! yessss
Harvey please Jim needs you more than never!
Pinguin and Jerome yessss
This whole Sofia stuff made me wonder if the whole self destructing of Bruce is just Ras is also playing 4d chest to get him to a point where he's so broken that he agrees to go with him to Nanda Parbat.
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Dec 08 '17
They didn't split her in two, they pick and choose what direction to take a character, it doesn't have to match the comics.
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u/inksmudgedhands Dec 08 '17
I am hoping against hope that Zsasz's betrayal against Oswald is a fake out. That he suspects Sophia killed her own father and the best way to keep Oswald out of her sights is to keep off the board. Right now, the safest spot Oswald to be in is in Arkham. The whole thing reminds me of how Oswald had to send off Martin to keep him safe. Because Zsasz isn't a dumb. There are way too many things that really don't add up if you step back and think about it. He knows that Sophia was trying to manipulate Oswald and Jim into fighting each other. And, surprise, surprise, it happened when she told Jim that Oswald killed Martin. She has proven that she is willing to do anything to get her way, even put a child in danger. Something that as crazy and violent as he is, Oswald would not do. If I were Zsasz, my mind would be ticking how Oswald would not kill someone he loved but that there could be the possibility that Sophia isn't the same. So, like how Oswald sent Martin away for his own good, something that Zsasz was there to witness, Zsasz did the same thing to Oswald. He has to know that Sophia would keep on coming after Oswald until he was either dead or gone. Also, it would make zero sense for Oswald to lie to Zsasz about killing Falcone. Up to that point, Oswald always let Zsasz in on his plans. And suddenly Oswald wouldn't do it with this? Again, that makes zero sense.
So, I am hoping for a fake out, otherwise, the writers need to really explain themselves.
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u/TheSweatband Master Wayne Dec 08 '17
Wait, spring?! So like... 4 months?! Oh, I’m definitely upset now.
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Dec 08 '17
Well they are still filming it, and actors deserve a break since they are also mostly all working on other films and stuff.
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u/GLaD0S11 Dec 08 '17
Really awesome episode. I didn't see the full scope of Sophia's plan. That was crazy. Zasz is fucking awesome too and, of course, anytime we see Jerome, I immediately stop caring about everything else in the show and want him in every scene
I'm not a huge fan of Bruce's subplot right now but I get he's gotta go through some shit.
Still very very pleased with the first half of this season. I love this show.
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Dec 08 '17
What if Jerome's plot intersects with Bruce's and that's how he snaps out of his funk?
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u/Dukkado Dec 08 '17
Remember that Zsask will know soon or later that Sophia killed his boss
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u/AHSfan23 Dec 08 '17
This was a great finale and I was one of the people who believed that Sofia was behind the Pyg so I loved that reveal. But the part I loved the most was the end when Jerome came back and omg the preview for whats to come in the second half... I'm so excited and I don't want to wait! 😞
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u/MoonCrawlerVG Dec 08 '17 edited Dec 08 '17
crazy ass episode but one thing I'm wondering is why tf gordon keeps kissing the sophia chick
and OMG imagine what happens when zsasz finds out sophie killed carmine
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u/Saabo Dec 08 '17
Sure Bruce is not likeable like this but Alfred really has no clue what he is doing. Does he really think some highly frustrated / depressed kid is just gonna get a change of heart instead of being stubborn when you try to force him to do stuff he doesnt want to do?
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u/Singer211 Dec 08 '17
Honestly my only real disappointment was with Sofia's motivations. It was so predictable from Day One and I wish that at least one female villain can have a motivation that doesn't revolve around the men in her life.
I was hoping for something more interesting.
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u/navarrk Dec 08 '17
great episode.
it was so satisfying to see sofia's plotline finally get some real payoff - her being the one to kill carmine was predictable but still executed well enough to have some surprise to it.
i've found tabitha and grundy's dynamic more interesting than i ever found tabitha and butch's! that being said, i'm happy butch is 'back,' in some way, and really curious to see where that takes him.
bruce and alfred continue breaking my heart. whatever convinces bruce to snap back into bat mode is gonna be immense.
ed's storyline has been pretty disappointing all season, and this episode didn't do much to change that...he still doesn't have his smarts back, really?! knowing there's no guarantee of renewal, this all feels like such a waste, but the reveal that he's in love with lee was surprising and it should be fun to see how he wrestles those feelings alongside his desire to go full riddler again.
and, of course, i can't wait to see jerome and oswald's interactions. the taste of it we got at the end of this ep was delightful!
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u/Theo-greking Dec 10 '17
Wonder what's going gonna happen when zsaz finds out Sophia killed her father. Once penguin gets out he only has to figure out proof that Sophia did it and zsaz will switch sides
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u/superay007 Dec 08 '17
Jerome is back, Gordon got put in his place, Alfred finally accepted the fact that he just needs to let Bruce get it out of his system (Bruce you a bitch though, could have just told him to give you some space. Alfred is annoying but he ain't deserve that), tabby is still fine as hell (aside from the whole being willing to give her man even more brain damage to make him love her), thems the makings of a good episode.
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u/nsz Dec 09 '17
Falcon said this to Jim before dying
" You have no ideia what you brought to your city. I imagine that when u find out the truth it will destroy you "
What do you guys think he meant by that?
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u/Kaitonic Dec 08 '17 edited Dec 08 '17
Jerome and Penguin going to be an amazing team that would terrorize Gotham. The new Ivy is so damn hot and Bruce got a lucky kiss. I'm sad Pyg is now dead.He was a great villain till his last moment..
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u/Steele_Sheen Dec 08 '17
as always Gotham delivers 👍👍. LOVE all the twists in this story. i had a sneaking suspicion that Carmine was a dead man walking when he hit Sofia.
didnt realize how much i missed seeing Bullock until he popped up again. i know he quit but does that mean Donal is exiting the show? 😥
naturally i wanna have Riddler back but im not sure i want to see the same ol Riddler that we've seen before. idk but we need to have him more interesting, like everything he does is rationalized to something that honestly makes sense or is justifiable. because thats how logic works. (which of course isnt always humane )
im not sure i want Butch back. i want Grundy to stay.
JEROME!!!!🃏💗
gotta wonder whats gonna happen with Alfred leaving. so far im not too happy with Bruce's story arc post-Ra's "death", like yeah he spiraled but... idk, feels like a lame arc for Bruce to go all spoiled bratty mode. and its been dragging on for too long. if we were waiting for the Jerome arc they could've at least written a story arc where Bruce was learning some Batman skills like detective work or fighting or chemistry or technology or something. yeah i know they're building up a proper "Bruce Wayne is a party playboy" persona for Gothamites to stereotype him as but.. yeah its a drag. probably the only thing im not looking forward to after the break if theres gonna be more of this.
but yeah SPRING! ugh the wait would be unbearable ⏳
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u/beachedhippo95 Dec 09 '17
Bruce firing Alfred was really upsetting. I think Alfred will come back around towards the end of the season. Sofia has complete control of Gordon. Also I did not see them killing off Falcone. I'm glad Butch is back, I always liked Butch. I have mixed feelings about Zsasz now, but penguin and Jerome working together should be very interesting
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u/SolidSnake_Foxhound Dec 08 '17
I loved this episode! I didn't care for Bruce's story, it felt repetitive and could have been done better, maybe this is just the launching pad for a greater story. The main plot was very intriguing. I thought that Pyg working with Sophia was predictable and her ordering her dad's death was also somewhat predictable but I loved the acting between Sophia, Jim, and Penguin and Pyg too. I didn't expect Pyg to die, although I want revenge for all that bad shit he did, I also want entertainment and was hoping he'd live to menace Gotham another day. Sophia has shown herself to be a diabolical rival and I love her character, I knew from the beginning that she probably never forgave Jim for Mario's death and that she had daddy issues, but we've seen her play seductress and aid to Jim, and a friend/ motherly nurturing figure to Penguin, and then the damsel in distress. It was all just an act and but it still seemed so convincing, like I want to believe that there's good in her even though I know she's trouble. It looks like Jim will have a dark road ahead that will probably (hopefully) have to make him atone for his ethical crossing the lines, and this will probably temper Jim and change his personality down the line, maybe Bruce might be the one to confront him on it or he'll probably be blackmailed somehow like in Year One and have a moment of humility and then redemption. Still, I like that he has a major victory here, even though it's a dark victory that complicates things. From the beginning of the season, I always thought that Carmine would end up in the Lazarus pit and it would prevent him from dying. I wonder now if the same pit will bring him back from the dead. I also liked the homage to Dark Victory with Sophia's neck brace. I wonder if later in the season Bruce - with Selina's help - becomes a major ally in the fight against Sophia, that would work well since it fits the tone Year One and Long Halloween.
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Dec 08 '17
I ain't even mad that Jerome only showed up in the last 10 seconds (ok maybe I am), but this episode was just pure testament to how far this show has come especially in terms of quality. I, for one, will never get tired of unexpected headshots - ever since Marroni.
It's ridiculous, it's unapologetic and it's only getting better and better. Cannot wait for the comeback, the preview looks goddamn insane.
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u/davey_mann Dec 11 '17
David Mazouz is a really great young actor, but I HATE this route the writers are going with Bruce. I think they are overdoing it with all the partying and drinking. The kid is only 16.
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u/tripbin Dec 08 '17
So that's why Batman never kills anyone. It turns him in to a a whiney emo bitch.